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Season 8: News, Spoilers And Leaks

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5 hours ago, Error-504 said:

Two things wrong with this.

1) Sansa didn't say Dany wasn't the rightful queen of the North, she said she wasn't the rightful queen, which would imply of the seven kingdoms.  And if Dany is Jon's love interest, I would say she has the inside track at this as well.

2) I never said I though Sansa was speculating either she or Cersie was the rightful queen, rather, If not Dany, then who? Sansa or Cersie was my speculation, because nobody else comes to mind. 

 

My apologies, I could have worded it better, I was in a hurry at the time. 

As to whether or not the show (as much as the I love the show, there are times I don't agree with how they portray certain things) makes a big deal out of the North disproving of Jon bending the knee (Jon himself admitted to Dany they would'nt like it, but would come to appreciate her), my argument is it is much to do about nothing, period. It's really rather idiotic for the Northerners do so, in light of current circumstances. 

They are already in open rebellion against Cersei ( A recent development I might add). Declaring for Dany gives them an Ally against the WW's and against Cersei. The North would have zero chance of surviving against either, without Dany's help (the enemy of my enemy). And should the combined forces of the North And Dany's army manage to prevail in both wars, and find Dany's terms un-agreeable (once she becomes Queen of Westeros), there is nothing to prevent them from once again claiming independence (you know, like they just did) and being in open rebellion against Dany. 

But unlike the Northern Lords, Jon seems to understand that the ONLY THING THAT MATTERS is the survival of his people (Jamie seems to understand that as well, even going farther than Jon), and all people for that matter. Everything else is inconsequential. A point you just can't seem to get over. a point the Northern Lords themselves, if they had a brain amongst them would understand. In other words, a more realistic reaction when they learn of the news about Jon bending the knee to Dany should be more akin to "So what" or "lets worry about that later", rather than anything else the show decides to spoon feed us. And yes, I am sure the show will delve into that for a bit, but if they make a big deal out of it, they are doing a disservice to the plot line. What I think will happen is this will be a very minor issue (some grumbling etc) and be resolved rather quickly. And if Sansa is to be the one making the biggest deal out of it, it goes to show how completely clueless she really is about the bigger picture. 

You asked who Sansa was thinking of as the rightful queen. 

On ‎4‎/‎12‎/‎2019 at 3:38 PM, Error-504 said:

From the Sansa interview................

 

"Her relationship with Jon is struggling because he’s so clearly in love with Daenerys and believes in her completely. Sansa thinks she’s power-hungry and not the rightful queen. There’s a huge amount of fighting between Sansa and Jon."

Odd choice of words, I wonder in her mind, who the "rightful Queen" would be? Cersei? Her? 

Sansa was thinking that the rightful queen was the wife of the KitN, not herself or Cersei. Remarkable that you turned something so simple into this spectacle. I don't care whether or not you agree with her opinion. It's what she's thinking here. 

Bold: if that were true, he wouldn't have unnecessarily kneeled throwing the North into political turmoil at the worst time. And if Dany understands that, she'll give up her claim for now upon seeing the turmoil that it's set up to cause. But you'll disagree because the North should suddenly be different than they have been for thousands of years so the story can turn Dany into a Mary Sue fanfic. That's not what it is whether you like it or not.

 

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Error-504 said:

I didn't change the subject. I put it in perspective. There is no Geneva convention in Westeros. This is a story roughly based in mid-evil times. Get over your 21st century morality, it is not relevant to the conversation. Do you think Rob Stark took prisoners? Or Ned and Robert? On occasion they might take a hostage, if that person where of significant strategical value, Otherwise bend the knee or die. That's the way it was done. Losers didn't get a pat on the back and a participation trophy then sent home. They don't tie up a significant portion of their own forces to march them to a POW camp, back at their home base either. 

My Mance and Olenna circumstances do help my point, your inability to understand the point is not a problem of mine, it is yours. The point is, bend the knee or die is perfectly acceptable in THAT SOCIETY. 

So the fact that Randyl and Dickon were executed is a non-starter. Or at least it should be. The only thing in question then is the manner in which they were executed. Dead is dead in my book, and personally I don't see a big issue with it. Would it have been an issue if they did it Ned Stark style and cut off their heads instead? Would you feel better about it then? We all know how seriously Ned takes honor. How would he have reacted to Randyl Tarleys betrayal of their Liege lord? I can assure you he would have killed them himself. Ned Stark style. 

Which then leaves us with the manor of execution, death by dragon fire. That is the only part of your whole argument that has anything to stand on (and even that is tenuous at best). Given the history of her father, yes, Dany could have chosen a better method. But in my book, so what. Thanks for the video btw, it actually makes my argument much stronger. Before the execution, roughly half the captured forces were refusing to bend the knee, after the execution, they all did. Dany's display, though barbaric as you might think it was, saved many lives.  And it is not as if Randayl did'nt have other options, for a moment, he was even offered the chance to take the Black, an option Dany was considering. He refused. It's his own dam fault. He was daring her to execute him. 

And the fact Tyrion was lamenting over the dead Lannister/Tarely soldiers and the manner in which they died, is laughable. Does he think the soldiers he killed in the Blackwater Bay battle died any differently? 

Or should he decide to betray Dany (as some rumors have suggested) and ally with Cersei, who can forget this:

Randyl Tarley had no problems allying with Cersei, even after this atrocity, now did he? And those weren't even soldiers that died in that catastrophe, yet Randyl Tarley didn't care. 

Your argument is laughable, inconsistent, and totally lacking in any understanding of the realities of war in the time period. 

Bold especially and your stance on captives in general: I'll let that speak for itself. Someone should inform GRRM.  ;)

You didn't address why the Tarly execution was tactically smarter than keeping the head of the house and his heir as captives nor did you address the fact that Dany had a choice. You just said executions happen. It's been shown that the Cersei method looks like it works up front, but it falls flat later. 

Thanks for addressing the crazy issue, but I don't care that you don't like it. It's there and it'll probably be an issue until it's no longer convenient at which time they'll pretend it didn't happen. Also don't care whether or not you think Tyrion's and Varys' upset over Dany's actions here is laughable. It's there for a reason. Your personal dismal won't be the characters' dismissal. It's something built into that world and it's centered around the Stark/Targ conflict in RR. 

Your responses are so mixed up with what's happening in the show and what you wish would happen and it's bloody confusing. In the end it just reads as complaining that Dany's not getting the Mary Sue fanfic treatment. That's pretty odd as your post sounds just like Cersei here. 

ACOK Sansa VI

"The night's first traitors," the queen said, "but not the last, I fear. Have Ser Ilyn see to them, and put their heads on pikes outside the stables as a warning." As they left, she turned to Sansa. "Another lesson you should learn, if you hope to sit beside my son. Be gentle on a night like this and you'll have treasons popping up all about you like mushrooms after a hard rain. The only way to keep your people loyal is to make certain they fear you more than they do the enemy."

"I will remember, Your Grace," said Sansa, though she had always heard that love was a surer route to the people's loyalty than fear. If I am ever a queen, I'll make them love me.
 

This is where I jump ship. I'm not interested in every response being mixed up with what you wish the story was. :cheers:

 

Edited by Lollygag

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1 hour ago, Erick Storm said:

I read some critics that went into details and many have facts wrong or interpret things different than others. They often compare to the earlier seasons but fail to see the flaws in those, partly because they also read the more detailed books. Some critiques just do it because it makes them feel smart when in fact, they can't follow the story without GRRM's hand guiding them. The shows has some flaws but it's still excellent.

So you'll be in the R&R thread after episodes to explain why the problems we see aren't problems? Not being a jerk. If you can point out why we're missing something, that'd be nice. 

1 hour ago, Erick Storm said:

It's just too broad a question. 

Yeah, Dorne sucked and the Sandsnakes actresses were terrible. D&D know it and they redeemed themselves with one line: "let the grown women speak". At least they got the cruellest death.

It's really not. Folks whip out why things don't work all over this forum. It's just as easy to respond by whipping out why it does work. 

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6 hours ago, Error-504 said:

 

And the fact Tyrion was lamenting over the dead Lannister/Tarely soldiers and the manner in which they died, is laughable. Does he think the soldiers he killed in the Blackwater Bay battle died any differently? 

 

 

That was Tyrion's house, you know. And he was probably worried he'd run across burnt Bronn or charred Jaime. 

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59 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

You asked who Sansa was thinking of as the rightful queen. 

Sansa was thinking that the rightful queen was the wife of the KitN, not herself or Cersei. Remarkable that you turned something so simple into this spectacle. I don't care whether or not you agree with her opinion. It's what she's thinking here. 

Bold: if that were true, he wouldn't have unnecessarily kneeled throwing the North into political turmoil at the worst time. And if Dany understands that, she'll give up her claim for now upon seeing the turmoil that it's set up to cause. But you'll disagree because the North should suddenly be different than they have been for thousands of years so the story can turn Dany into a Mary Sue fanfic. That's not what it is whether you like it or not.

 

So, the KotN's  wife is the Queen of Westeros? I must have missed that episode. What a complete and utter bunch of nonsense. 

let me get out my crayons and I will draw you a picture

 Jon is the KotN, this is not in dispute. Jon is not married. Ergo, there is no QotN, nor is there a "rightful Queen of the North". Now, I know this is hard, but try to follow along, when Sophie makes the statement that Sansa dos not believe Dany is  the rightful queen, she is not referring to just the North, she is referring to Westeros. It's really not that hard. 

So, now that we have THAT clarified (and I am shocked {well not really} that I had to clarify it for you), who is the rightful queen? 

And if the comment was made as it pertains to QotN, which it wasn't, who, other than Jon, would make that decision? Is Sansa going to tell Jon who he can and cannot marry? 

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36 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Bold especially and your stance on captives in general: I'll let that speak for itself. Someone should inform GRRM.  ;)

You didn't address why the Tarly execution was tactically smarter than keeping the head of the house and his heir as captives nor did you address the fact that Dany had a choice. You just said executions happen. It's been shown that the Cersei method looks like it works up front, but it falls flat later. 

Thanks for addressing the crazy issue, but I don't care that you don't like it. It's there and it'll probably be an issue until it's no longer convenient at which time they'll pretend it didn't happen. Also don't care whether or not you think Tyrion's and Varys' upset over Dany's actions here is laughable. It's there for a reason. Your personal dismal won't be the characters' dismissal. It's something built into that world and it's centered around the Stark/Targ conflict in RR. 

Your responses are so mixed up with what's happening in the show and what you wish would happen and it's bloody confusing. In the end it just reads as complaining that Dany's not getting the Mary Sue fanfic treatment. That's pretty odd as your post sounds just like Cersei here. 

ACOK Sansa VI

"The night's first traitors," the queen said, "but not the last, I fear. Have Ser Ilyn see to them, and put their heads on pikes outside the stables as a warning." As they left, she turned to Sansa. "Another lesson you should learn, if you hope to sit beside my son. Be gentle on a night like this and you'll have treasons popping up all about you like mushrooms after a hard rain. The only way to keep your people loyal is to make certain they fear you more than they do the enemy."

"I will remember, Your Grace," said Sansa, though she had always heard that love was a surer route to the people's loyalty than fear. If I am ever a queen, I'll make them love me.
 

This is where I jump ship. I'm not interested in every response being mixed up with what you wish the story was. :cheers:

 

Your running away because your losing the debate, badly. so run along. I did address why the Tarley execution was tactically smart. It got the other soldiers to bend the knee. But reading comprehension isn't your strong suit. And spare me the cliches about Mary Sue fanfic. That my dear, befalls on you and your constant attempt to insert 21st century morality into a story based in a mid-evil time period. 

And nice straw man on the whole Cersei method. I pointed out that it was a common practice, used by all of the houses in time of war. Again, another fail on your part.  

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Posted (edited)

Interview with Marc Rissmann who plays Harry Strickland.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=6&v=JBLpSCcve48

But if you have read my posts, you know I believe this guy will actually take the name Aegon Targaryen, and win the throne, and marry Sansa.

From the start of the interview you can tell he is hiding the truth about his character. I am 100% convinced of it. They cast the perfect guy for the role.

Quote

Tyrion Lannister had claimed that most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it, but Jon was done with denials. He was who he was; Jon Snow, bastard and oathbreaker, motherless, friendless, and damned. For the rest of his life—however long that might be—he would be condemned to be an outsider, the silent man standing in the shadows who dares not speak his true name. Wherever he might go throughout the Seven Kingdoms, he would need to live a lie, lest every man's hand be raised against him.

That is how Jon will be remembered. And Aegon's name is stolen from him.

Edited by NonoNono

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3 minutes ago, NonoNono said:

Interview with Marc Rissmann who plays Harry Strickland.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=6&v=JBLpSCcve48

But if you have read my posts, you know I believe this guy will actually take the name Aegon Targaryen, and win the throne, and marry Sansa.

From the start of the interview you can tell he is hiding the truth about his character. I am 100% convinced of it. They cast the perfect guy for the role.

That is how Jon will be remembered. And Aegon's name is stolen from him.

I just can't subscribe to it.  That would been awful ending, plus the show would have built him up well before that.  If they genuinely throw this guy into the last six episodes and have him winning the Game of Thrones then there would be outrage.

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Just now, Ser Gareth said:

I just can't subscribe to it.  That would been awful ending, plus the show would have built him up well before that.  If they genuinely throw this guy into the last six episodes and have him winning the Game of Thrones then there would be outrage.

The outrage is the whole point. We are attached to all these characters, but they will be spent, exhausted, in some cases dead, and ultimately, "Power resides where people believe it does, no more, no less."

There has been so much building up to this and people refuse to accept it. But it's all there. The very point of this whole story has been, from the start, about how history is written by the victors, how difficult it is to know the truth, and how interpretations and arguments over the past shape the present and future.

The "heroes" have given everything they had to save the world, sometimes to the point of fighting each other, but in saving it no one will know what they saved it from, and their battles will be remembered as the only threat the world faced. It is the demise of the heroes, the ones history forgets or condemns, that allows rulers like "Aegon" to rule.

"Do you know what the realm is? It's the thousand blades of Aegon's enemies, a story we agree to tell each other over and over, until we forget that it's a lie."

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3 minutes ago, NonoNono said:

The outrage is the whole point. We are attached to all these characters, but they will be spent, exhausted, in some cases dead, and ultimately, "Power resides where people believe it does, no more, no less."

There has been so much building up to this and people refuse to accept it. But it's all there. The very point of this whole story has been, from the start, about how history is written by the victors, how difficult it is to know the truth, and how interpretations and arguments over the past shape the present and future.

The "heroes" have given everything they had to save the world, sometimes to the point of fighting each other, but in saving it no one will know what they saved it from, and their battles will be remembered as the only threat the world faced. It is the demise of the heroes, the ones history forgets or condemns, that allows rulers like "Aegon" to rule.

"Do you know what the realm is? It's the thousand blades of Aegon's enemies, a story we agree to tell each other over and over, until we forget that it's a lie."

Nah, what will happen is that the guy will die in chapter 2 or 3 and then you'll vanish from here. Can't wait.

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4 minutes ago, NonoNono said:

The outrage is the whole point. We are attached to all these characters, but they will be spent, exhausted, in some cases dead, and ultimately, "Power resides where people believe it does, no more, no less."

There has been so much building up to this and people refuse to accept it. But it's all there. The very point of this whole story has been, from the start, about how history is written by the victors, how difficult it is to know the truth, and how interpretations and arguments over the past shape the present and future.

The "heroes" have given everything they had to save the world, sometimes to the point of fighting each other, but in saving it no one will know what they saved it from, and their battles will be remembered as the only threat the world faced. It is the demise of the heroes, the ones history forgets or condemns, that allows rulers like "Aegon" to rule.

"Do you know what the realm is? It's the thousand blades of Aegon's enemies, a story we agree to tell each other over and over, until we forget that it's a lie."

Still don't see it.  The TV show and books will share the ending.  No way (f)Aegon is winning it in the books.  It's already been heavily foreshadowed that Dany will have to defeat him.

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Just now, Ser Gareth said:

Still don't see it.  The TV show and books will share the ending.  No way (f)Aegon is winning it in the books.  It's already been heavily foreshadowed that Dany will have to defeat him.

I disagree, I think he wins in both:)

We'll see I guess, I can be totally wrong;)

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I'd guess that if the actor is really playing the Young Griff character from the books that he'll be Aegon VI and Jon Aegon VII.

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29 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

I'd guess that if the actor is really playing the Young Griff character from the books that he'll be Aegon VI and Jon Aegon VII.

Been saying it, he will take the throne and the name Aegon from Jon, and marry Sansa. Jon and Dany's reputation will be ruined. But Jon will be king beyond the wall, where it will remain Winter, and the northmen will be stuck south, holding onto A Dream of Spring to one day reclaim it. The free folk will not be allowed to stay south, especially as they would have to be given land, but Sansa will not give land to them over the northmen. Heck, the freefolk will likely be hunted down.

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8 minutes ago, NonoNono said:

Been saying it, he will take the throne and the name Aegon from Jon, and marry Sansa. Jon and Dany's reputation will be ruined. But Jon will be king beyond the wall, where it will remain Winter, and the northmen will be stuck south, holding onto A Dream of Spring to one day reclaim it. The free folk will not be allowed to stay south, especially as they would have to be given land, but Sansa will not give land to them over the northmen. Heck, the freefolk will likely be hunted down.

I doubt GRRM is going to have Jon as the sixth Aegon and YG as the seventh. Maybe though. I've always thought it was possible YG *could* end up the winner in the end. I just don't think it's the most likely option.

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

I doubt GRRM is going to have Jon as the sixth Aegon and YG as the seventh. Maybe though. I've always thought it was possible YG *could* end up the winner in the end. I just don't think it's the most likely option.

You don't get a number to your name until crowned. At least, in real life :) Babies died a lot back then, so it would be weird. Sometimes the heir apparent would die and another would take their place.

Edited by NonoNono

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1 minute ago, NonoNono said:

You don't get a number to your name until crowned. At least, in real life :) Babies died a lot back then, so it would be weird.

By that logic, Sam is wrong to say Jon is the sixth of his name. My guess is that YG will be crowned as Aegon VI in the books.

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

By that logic, Sam is wrong to say Jon is the sixth of his name. My guess is that YG will be crowned as Aegon VI in the books.

I agree about the books. I think Sam is just figuratively speaking, since he is actually already king, just not "officially" crowned.

The kings are usually crowned by the high septon too. Jon doesn't worship that stuff.

Edited by NonoNono

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2 minutes ago, NonoNono said:

I agree about the books. I think Sam is just figuratively speaking, since he is actually already king, just not "officially" crowned.

So you think the books will have YG as Aegon VI but then no Aegon VII? I really think seven is too thematic a number to end with six King Aegons.

The ToJ was seven versus three, and we know how important that is to Jon's story. Plus, Fire and Blood gave us another Targaryen girl named Daenerys, which makes our Dany the third Daenerys in the story. Seven and three. Seven Kingdoms, seven gods, seven King Aegons. Three Heads of the Dragons, three Dragons, three Daeneryses. That's how I see it.

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

So you think the books will have YG as Aegon VI but then no Aegon VII? I really think seven is too thematic a number to end with six King Aegons.

The ToJ was seven versus three, and we know how important that is to Jon's story. Plus, Fire and Blood gave us another Targaryen girl named Daenerys, which makes our Dany the third Daenerys in the story. Seven and three. Seven Kingdoms, seven gods, seven King Aegons. Three Heads of the Dragons, three Dragons, three Daeneryses. That's how I see it.

I think it will be like in The Accursed Kings, which GRRM said was a big inspiration. There is John the 1st, and John "the bastard", but the bastard is actually the true heir, he was swapped at birth. But decades later, when he finds out and tells people, they don't believe him and throw him in jail, where he dies.

I think here, the GC leader will take the name Aegon, and Jon will be unable to make that claim without being said to be an usurper.

Quote

Tyrion Lannister had claimed that most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it, but Jon was done with denials. He was who he was; Jon Snow, bastard and oathbreaker, motherless, friendless, and damned. For the rest of his life—however long that might be—he would be condemned to be an outsider, the silent man standing in the shadows who dares not speak his true name. Wherever he might go throughout the Seven Kingdoms, he would need to live a lie, lest every man's hand be raised against him.

I think he takes the throne, and power resides where people believe it does. "Do you know what the realm is? It's the thousand blades of Aegon's enemies, a story we agree to tell each other over and over, until we forget that it's a lie."

Edited by NonoNono

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