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Season 8: News, Spoilers And Leaks

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4 minutes ago, NonoNono said:

I think it will be like in The Accursed Kings, which GRRM said was a big inspiration. There is John the 1st, and John "the bastard", but the bastard is actually the true heir, he was swapped at birth. But decades later, when he finds out and tells people, they don't believe him and throw him in jail, where he dies.

I think here, the GC leader will take the name Aegon, and Jon will be unable to make that claim without being said to be an usurper.

 

1

In other words, you think GRRM will end the series with six King Aegons. Maybe, but I doubt it. In any case, I've also noted how YG claiming to be Aegon will undermine Jon's claim. Obviously, it sounds a bit different than with the version from The Accursed Kings since they are not claiming to be the same person, despite having the same name.

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Posted (edited)

Guys, I think... next episode... Bran reveals to Dany that she isn’t Darnerys Targaryen, will prove it to her. She survived the fire only because of blood magic. She can ride the dragons only because she is their mother. The hot baths did feel hot, she knows it. She puts her hand over a candle and burns herself. Even her brother knew. “You don’t want to wake the dragon now do you?” It was a mind trick. She was raised to be married, to get an army.

I really think so. And when the fake Aegon takes the throne it will be even worst for her. And Sansa who marries him will know. Sansa will rule by marrying a fake!

Daenerys will be remembered as a witch usurper.

It also means it’s not incest.

And Dany found what she truly wanted. “All the steps you have taken have led you here, where you belong. Home.”

 

Edit: There’s a reason Jon’s hand was burned in the books. Being unburned is not a Targaryen trait. Rereading Dany’s first chapter makes it all obvious now.

Edited by NonoNono

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For the passed few years I'd kept up with the season (*fill in the blank) spoilers and predictions. Some go down rabbit holes and off on tangents. This thread was completely ridiculous. I guess this is what happens when there is so many days between episodes. So much fighting over total BS, no real theory crafting, predicting, or speak of actual season 8. This thread should have been renamed about half way through in order to keep what was a pretty hot discussion going amongst the 3-5 members that were burning it up.

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From the show I think we can draw a few conclusions for the books, even it the former is shit:

  1. Jon will at least become King of the North.  What he does with that/how he works out his heritage - I think that will be entirely different in the books.
  2. Dany is in a very precarious position by the end.  I don't know what Martin has planned for her, but it doesn't look good right now.  That debut could have been called Everybody Hates Dany, and be accurate.
  3. Bran is not a tree.  STFU about that.  He may be creepy and meme-worthy AF, but it also demonstrates he's not just going to join the roots.
  4. Tyrion is very unlikely to ride a dragon.  If he doesn't ride a dragon in the show, he will not in the books.  Given how easy they've made it, yeah.

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1 hour ago, 21st Century Moose said:

Jon is toast.  He's not going to survive.  He was resurrected by the Lord of Light to fight in the Second War for the Dawn, and when that's done, he'll be done too.

Keep telling yourself that :lol:

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11 hours ago, DMC said:

Dany is in a very precarious position by the end.  I don't know what Martin has planned for her, but it doesn't look good right now.  That debut could have been called Everybody Hates Dany, and be accurate

It's obvious form the books. When she'll return, she'll likely find fAegon (the cloth dragon), beloved by the Faith, the pious and the lords desiring the overthrow of Cersei. Daenerys will have for her slave eunuchs, Dothrakis savages, Ironborn reapers, bad repute sellswords,. Probably red priests ready the burn the 7 and their believers. Maybe the news of the plague disaster will also have reached Westeros. Not much for her to enjoy.

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5 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

It's obvious form the books. When she'll return, she'll likely find fAegon (the cloth dragon), beloved by the Faith, the pious and the lords desiring the overthrow of Cersei. Daenerys will have for her slave eunuchs, Dothrakis savages, Ironborn reapers, bad repute sellswords,. Probably red priests ready the burn the 7 and their believers. Maybe the news of the plague disaster will also have reached Westeros. Not much for her to enjoy.

You forgot Quaithe, and a whole bunch of other shit.  She will definitely confront "Aegon," Martin promised it, but I disagree with your depiction.

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On 9/7/2018 at 11:07 PM, Ser Wun Wun said:

Friki's video is out.  He did this one in English.  YouTube Link  

 

He says Tyrion dies.  He says there is a trial for Tyrion in the Dragonpit.  Neither Jon nor Dany were there, so he doesn't actually know about their fate...but Tyrion is a traitor, and he is sure Tyrion dies.  He's just not sure how he dies.  He thinks it could be like LF's death. 

He's not sure why Tyrion turns traitor either, he's just certain he does.  Tyrion's treason is revealed in a scene with Jon, Dany, Sansa, Arya, and Tyrion.  Friki thinks this will be one of the biggest twists of the season.  He says Tyrion will get a speech like the one he gave in his trial for Joff's death.     

And lastly he says Emilia was not in Seville.  KIt was there, but Friki is certain he did not film anything (he never got into costume).  Friki says HBO brought several actors to Seville who didn't film anything, and he hopes to make a video next week where he confirms which ones didn't film...if he can get confirmation, which he says he doesn't have yet.      

Been catching up, and watched frikis videos again. Combined with s08e01 I'm starting to have this idea

People wonder why Dany and Jon aren't present at Tyrion's trial, if they make it to the finale (per the filming). Meanwhile we have Sam stressing to Jon that Dany may not be as good a queen as Jon thought she was, because she burned his father and brother and per Bradley's interview, Sam came to that conclusion especially in the way she delivered the news to him.

I've recently had a discussion about that scene where Dany first makes a speech how she's more just etc and then executes men who surrendered to her because they refuse to bend the knee... her very first act on Westeros soil. It was set-up to be an issue by d&d, and that issue has spilled over to the next season (faux issues are usually wrapped up within the same season - see Sansa vs Arya rivalry in S7 over LIttlefinger). Looking back at Dany's track record, we see that actually her most horrific choices are made when she dispenses justice, especially when she feels betrayed. As a ruler, when making laws, etc, she is far more visionary as well as able to mingle old with new. Her actual battle strategies are successful. Problems arise with her almost entirely when she has to judge and decide on a sentence (barbaric each and every one), and never impartial. The show actually made some of those worse than in the books (including feeding a man to a dragon because he belongs to slavers, without caring whether he was actually a conspiritor);

Now this trial with Tyrion is about treason against Dany and Jon, and yet they are not present, even though friki says that Dany, Jon, Arya and Sansa discover Tyrion's treason in another scene with him.

If Dany and Jon are not present at this trial, it may not just because they're dead or left, but because one of the changes to the society they insert is a type of separation of power: a king and queen may make laws, but they cannot be the judge & jury anymore. This would not just be in line with Tyrion's trials before that, but basically the resurfacing theme of "justice: the execution of Rickard and Brandon Stark  Ned Stark, Stannis's strict judging and burning, Robert foregoing to punish the men who killed Elia Martell and her children because he hated Targs and didn't want to risk the ire of his father-in-law Tywin, Joffrey killing people willy nilly, Tywin letting Gregor and Vargo Hoat loose on the Riverlands, the Brotherhood without Banners seeking justice, Robb chopping Karstark's head off for killing two of his prisoners and then losing part of his army, Bolton flaying, the High Sparrow abusing his religious power to send a queen on a walk of shame, etc, etc  It appears in every POV's arc, the witnessing, delivering or experiencing of injustice.

King's Justice is one of the consistent main causes of things going wrong time and time again, because it is tyrannical and entirely based on the abilities of that one person. Hell, it's in the first chapter even, with Ned beheading the deserter. Now, even the separation of power between lawmaking and judging can still lead to issues, but  it's still better than putting it into the hands of one ruler. Even if you still have a just king or queen, you cannot be certain their child will be.

Could that be the real aDoS twist?

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5 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Been catching up, and watched frikis videos again. Combined with s08e01 I'm starting to have this idea

People wonder why Dany and Jon aren't present at Tyrion's trial, if they make it to the finale (per the filming). Meanwhile we have Sam stressing to Jon that Dany may not be as good a queen as Jon thought she was, because she burned his father and brother and per Bradley's interview, Sam came to that conclusion especially in the way she delivered the news to him.

I've recently had a discussion about that scene where Dany first makes a speech how she's more just etc and then executes men who surrendered to her because they refuse to bend the knee... her very first act on Westeros soil. It was set-up to be an issue by d&d, and that issue has spilled over to the next season (faux issues are usually wrapped up within the same season - see Sansa vs Arya rivalry in S7 over LIttlefinger). Looking back at Dany's track record, we see that actually her most horrific choices are made when she dispenses justice, especially when she feels betrayed. As a ruler, when making laws, etc, she is far more visionary as well as able to mingle old with new. Her actual battle strategies are successful. Problems arise with her almost entirely when she has to judge and decide on a sentence (barbaric each and every one), and never impartial. The show actually made some of those worse than in the books (including feeding a man to a dragon because he belongs to slavers, without caring whether he was actually a conspiritor);

Now this trial with Tyrion is about treason against Dany and Jon, and yet they are not present, even though friki says that Dany, Jon, Arya and Sansa discover Tyrion's treason in another scene with him.

If Dany and Jon are not present at this trial, it may not just because they're dead or left, but because one of the changes to the society they insert is a type of separation of power: a king and queen may make laws, but they cannot be the judge & jury anymore. This would not just be in line with Tyrion's trials before that, but basically the resurfacing theme of "justice: the execution of Rickard and Brandon Stark  Ned Stark, Stannis's strict judging and burning, Robert foregoing to punish the men who killed Elia Martell and her children because he hated Targs and didn't want to risk the ire of his father-in-law Tywin, Joffrey killing people willy nilly, Tywin letting Gregor and Vargo Hoat loose on the Riverlands, the Brotherhood without Banners seeking justice, Robb chopping Karstark's head off for killing two of his prisoners and then losing part of his army, Bolton flaying, the High Sparrow abusing his religious power to send a queen on a walk of shame, etc, etc  It appears in every POV's arc, the witnessing, delivering or experiencing of injustice.

King's Justice is one of the consistent main causes of things going wrong time and time again, because it is tyrannical and entirely based on the abilities of that one person. Hell, it's in the first chapter even, with Ned beheading the deserter. Now, even the separation of power between lawmaking and judging can still lead to issues, but  it's still better than putting it into the hands of one ruler. Even if you still have a just king or queen, you cannot be certain their child will be.

Could that be the real aDoS twist?

That could be, but to me it doesn't fit as an ending.

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15 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Been catching up, and watched frikis videos again. Combined with s08e01 I'm starting to have this idea

People wonder why Dany and Jon aren't present at Tyrion's trial, if they make it to the finale (per the filming). Meanwhile we have Sam stressing to Jon that Dany may not be as good a queen as Jon thought she was, because she burned his father and brother and per Bradley's interview, Sam came to that conclusion especially in the way she delivered the news to him.

I've recently had a discussion about that scene where Dany first makes a speech how she's more just etc and then executes men who surrendered to her because they refuse to bend the knee... her very first act on Westeros soil. It was set-up to be an issue by d&d, and that issue has spilled over to the next season (faux issues are usually wrapped up within the same season - see Sansa vs Arya rivalry in S7 over LIttlefinger). Looking back at Dany's track record, we see that actually her most horrific choices are made when she dispenses justice, especially when she feels betrayed. As a ruler, when making laws, etc, she is far more visionary as well as able to mingle old with new. Her actual battle strategies are successful. Problems arise with her almost entirely when she has to judge and decide on a sentence (barbaric each and every one), and never impartial. The show actually made some of those worse than in the books (including feeding a man to a dragon because he belongs to slavers, without caring whether he was actually a conspiritor);

Now this trial with Tyrion is about treason against Dany and Jon, and yet they are not present, even though friki says that Dany, Jon, Arya and Sansa discover Tyrion's treason in another scene with him.

If Dany and Jon are not present at this trial, it may not just because they're dead or left, but because one of the changes to the society they insert is a type of separation of power: a king and queen may make laws, but they cannot be the judge & jury anymore. This would not just be in line with Tyrion's trials before that, but basically the resurfacing theme of "justice: the execution of Rickard and Brandon Stark  Ned Stark, Stannis's strict judging and burning, Robert foregoing to punish the men who killed Elia Martell and her children because he hated Targs and didn't want to risk the ire of his father-in-law Tywin, Joffrey killing people willy nilly, Tywin letting Gregor and Vargo Hoat loose on the Riverlands, the Brotherhood without Banners seeking justice, Robb chopping Karstark's head off for killing two of his prisoners and then losing part of his army, Bolton flaying, the High Sparrow abusing his religious power to send a queen on a walk of shame, etc, etc  It appears in every POV's arc, the witnessing, delivering or experiencing of injustice.

King's Justice is one of the consistent main causes of things going wrong time and time again, because it is tyrannical and entirely based on the abilities of that one person. Hell, it's in the first chapter even, with Ned beheading the deserter. Now, even the separation of power between lawmaking and judging can still lead to issues, but  it's still better than putting it into the hands of one ruler. Even if you still have a just king or queen, you cannot be certain their child will be.

Could that be the real aDoS twist?

I was thinking along these lines too. The appearance of any monarchs at a trial might be seen as compromising the integrity of said trial and in certain circumstances, might be threatening to the participants. 

Westeros' trial by combat and Catelyn's kidnapping Tyrion really highlighted the problem of justice for me. I'm not remembering the name for sure (Oresteia?), but I think there was a Greek tragedy which addressed the issue of revenge culture vs a formal justice system and I was wondering if we'd see that here. Westeros certainly has a problem with revenge culture. 

The very, very strong role of counsels in the series and rule by committees like the Triarchs in Essos make me think that Westeros will move towards a formal counsel with certain powers of their own working with a monarch. Maybe it'll consist of representatives from each kingdom? 

On the side, I do think it's suspect that so many live, though. 

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Dany and Jon were not in Spain for the trial because they were in Dublin riding a green goat...

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Jô Maltese said:

Dany and Jon were not in Spain for the trial because they were in Dublin riding a green goat...

That's not the issue... Dany and Jon are clearly not part of Tyrion's trial for treason: at least they don't judge him.

 

Edited by sweetsunray

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6 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I was thinking along these lines too. The appearance of any monarchs at a trial might be seen as compromising the integrity of said trial and in certain circumstances, might be threatening to the participants. 

Westeros' trial by combat and Catelyn's kidnapping Tyrion really highlighted the problem of justice for me. I'm not remembering the name for sure (Oresteia?), but I think there was a Greek tragedy which addressed the issue of revenge culture vs a formal justice system and I was wondering if we'd see that here. Westeros certainly has a problem with revenge culture. 

The very, very strong role of counsels in the series and rule by committees like the Triarchs in Essos make me think that Westeros will move towards a formal counsel with certain powers of their own working with a monarch. Maybe it'll consist of representatives from each kingdom? 

On the side, I do think it's suspect that so many live, though. 

Agreed: Why did Catelyn kidnap him? Because she had no faith that Tyrion would otherwise get a fair trial by Robert. Arya starts her list of people to kill, because she knows these people will never be tried otherwise for their crimes, because of the systematic injustice. 

Trial by combat was something the Andals put in to insert an "impartial judge" and shortcut the monarch or lord out of it. The impartial judge then is the god of the 7. But in practice that's nonsense of course. There is not real god to judge, and then it's just up to chance or prowess. Might be what the executions before hearttrees were about too: there used to be a greenseer connected to it beneath the tree. At least a greenseer could see the truth. Except for Davos presiding, the others doing the judging are related to the greenseeing ability. Arya can judge whether someone lies. No idea what Sweetrobin's ability is, but at least the books suggest he may be developing some abilities. Bran can see what happened. Sansa may be the one who can piece it all together. And of course there's "the hour of the Wolf" link. It was a Stark who had the murder of his enemy Aegon II investigated after the civil war called the Dance of Dragons. 

Yes, I think Oreseteia deals with that, and of course there's the philosophical writing of Montesqieu about the division of power (lawmaking, judging and policing) that lay at the foundation of the social revolutions in the 18th century to move towards a constitutional monarchy or republic.

Perhaps it's suspect: but if Tyrion is found guilty, then that's the end of him. On the one hand you'd have a change in the fundamental system for the better, except the first person it's practiced on is Tyrion, and this time he will be guilty (?) That's bittersweet.

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I'm still not sure on this spoiler.  If Tyrion turns against Dany and Jon, who is he plotting for?  Himself?  It can't be his crazy sister, so who would be left to sit the IT that he would be plotting against Dany and Jon? 

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1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

I'm still not sure on this spoiler.  If Tyrion turns against Dany and Jon, who is he plotting for?  Himself?  It can't be his crazy sister, so who would be left to sit the IT that he would be plotting against Dany and Jon? 

Ho-ho that's what you think. Ya know I really wouldnt be surprised if D&D actually let Cersei win in the end. everyone dies but her, and she gets to sit alone on the IT for all eternity with her little smirk and Bavmorda warrior outfit.

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31 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Ho-ho that's what you think. Ya know I really wouldnt be surprised if D&D actually let Cersei win in the end. everyone dies but her, and she gets to sit alone on the IT for all eternity with her little smirk and Bavmorda warrior outfit.

Hey!  I have it!  Cercei's gonna agree to marry the NK (he needs a queen after all), birth her incestuous baby who the NK will touch on the forehead to turn his/her eyes blue, and they will all live happily ever after:D

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On 4/16/2019 at 10:41 AM, DMC said:

From the show I think we can draw a few conclusions for the books, even it the former is shit:

  1. Jon will at least become King of the North.  What he does with that/how he works out his heritage - I think that will be entirely different in the books.
  2. Dany is in a very precarious position by the end.  I don't know what Martin has planned for her, but it doesn't look good right now.  That debut could have been called Everybody Hates Dany, and be accurate.
  3. Bran is not a tree.  STFU about that.  He may be creepy and meme-worthy AF, but it also demonstrates he's not just going to join the roots.
  4. Tyrion is very unlikely to ride a dragon.  If he doesn't ride a dragon in the show, he will not in the books.  Given how easy they've made it, yeah.

I don't think the show proves number 3. It proves that Jaime and Bran will meet again, yes, but that doesn't need to take place at Winterfell. I'm betting on Brienne and Jaime leading an expedition north of the Wall with the BwB, mirroring the Last Hero story.

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