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Season 8: News, Spoilers And Leaks

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1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

Didn’t Sam tell him about his father and brother? 

Later, after the threats were made. And even then he shows cog-dis still by trying to rationalise it, though he's starting to get disturbed by it. Her words about what her and her brother had planned for Jaime doesn't sound good either. These are all facts he may rationalise seperately, but by end of epi5 or start of epi6, they are a sum of facts.

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The show turned Jon into a useless imbecile, and Dany into an unhinged nutjob. Who would want either one as ruler? They should both die and put Westeros out of its misery. 

Queen Cersei for the win! :commie:

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16 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Jon's in love at that moment, and he doesn't know about Dany burning people with Drogon. Cognitive Dissonance response by him that is actually quite natural. It's even natural to regard Sansa as the threat and problem here, instead of Dany. It doesn't mean he doesn't care for Sansa. It just means he dismisses Dany's threat is anything more than just "bad temper". This is actually quite book-Jon: he overhears the conspiritors talk at the Fist, but rationalises it and does not take the threat serious. On top of that, he's not even around and it never gets to be executed as the Fist is attacked. Later as LC, he knows once more that many are upset over him letting the wildings through but underestimates how far they are willing to go for their short-minded bigotry. But after seeing her burn down the red keep and set her Unsullied to sack the city, he can't dismiss any of her threats.

He also overhears Marsh & Co conspiring with Tywin and blows it off.

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Posted (edited)

Dany dying is heavily foreshadowed in the TV shows house of the undying, so that's not a shocker.   And let's be honest the show has been very linear in the way it is scripted. 

I would say Thorne's last words of Jon fighting battles forever is more in line with Jon taking the black.  I guess out of all the leaks these ones are the most credible to me. 

But yes, if the books end that way then GRMM didn't really achieve a bittersweet ending.  This is just bitter.  

Edited by Nic.

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2 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

He also overhears Marsh & Co conspiring with Tywin and blows it off.

True, right before Sam manages to do his election trick. For some reason I always recall that as Sam overhearing it. But it's actually Jon.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Nic. said:

Dany dying is heavily foreshadowed in the TV shows house of the undying, so that's not a shocker.   And let's be honest the show has been very linear in the way it is scripted. 

I would say Thorne's last words of Jon fighting battles forever is more in line with Jon taking the black.  I guess out of all the leaks these ones are the most credible to me. 

But yes, if the books end that way then GRMM didn't really achieve a bittersweet ending.  This is just bitter.  

The one that fleaked the Night Watch one is the least credible. It adds details that contradict other leaks which are more credible.  There isn't going to be a NW after this. What would they do? Force all the wildlings to the other side of the Wall and close it up?

Edited by longest night

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I think Bronn was sent knowing he wouldn't betray Tyrion and Jaime, but rather those who will be with him are the ones on an actual mission. Bronn will get betrayed by his sellswords.

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3 hours ago, Vaith said:

But in the TV show, Melisandre has been a red priestess for hundreds of years, according to the showrunners. It is a religion that is simply new in Westeros. There are rather old red temples in Volantis.

True, I mean the religion, like The Others, existed for a long time, but something animated them in the decades prior to Jon Arryn's death. She became aware (or thought she did) that the prophecies were to be fulfilled imminently, just as Thoros of Myr acquired resurrection powers re, Beric in a sense that had no precedent in the religion.

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Posted (edited)

I finally broke down and watched season 7 and yea, sadly the way Dany was depicted there -  i.e. impulsive, irrational and emotionally unstable makes the leaks concerning her very likely true. Arya taking out the NK was probably  included as a SOP to cushion the blow, as was all the very quickly eliminated "girlpower". Varys looks like a completely hypocritical and ineffectual idiot who caused as much destruction as LF for less reason, while Tyrion is just hypocritical and dumb. Sigh.

If this is what GRRM had in mind I really don't understand why WoIaf,  FaB and indeed the series itself were written as they were. I mean, we have very few women in positions of power in the books, yet no fewer than 2 mad evil queens at the same time, who both would have to be put down by some male relative? Basically, not only is this repetitive, but it plays into all the unpleasant prejudices used to deny women a chance at leadership. In the book series we had Lysa, Cersei and now seemingly Dany too exhibiting these traits and proving everybody who excluded women from succession right, while nobody  remains to serve as a positive counter-example.  And while Cat technically did not excercise power independently, she did actively "meddle" and the same arguments were made about her by a substantial part of the readership.

It seemed like the   stuff in WoIaF and FaB with women being repeatedly passed over as heirs was a set-up for Dany buckling the trend, but apparently not... So will it be Sansa or is it going to be straight-up "back to the blessed patriarchy!" kind  of deal with Jon or a bastard of  Robert ending up as the "good" king? With Dany anding up as yet another cautionary tale, justifying the status quo? Speaking of the most cliche way to go, which is, apparently, supposed to be the result of all the subversions. Unfortunatly, I do not think that Sansa was sufficiently built up as a believable replacement for Dany in the show, much less in the books. 

I wont lie - I find this development extremely disappointing and not what I would have expected from Martin, and not in the good way. If it is something from DD, they would have poisoned the well, even if GRRM eventually finishes the series differently, which does not look very hopeful at the moment.

P.S. Now that I think about it, this is also a pretty close repetition of the Stannis arc. Why?! Not to mention that in the books the North does not have enough foodstuffs stored to last a Winter, so this preoccupation with independence would look even more jarring. And after her travails in Mereen, it would make no sense for book Dany to destroy the victuals that she could loot to feed her people instead.

 

Edited by Maia

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In Season 7, Episode 2 Lady Olenna told Daenerys to be a Dragon......not a sheep like most of the men in Westeros.    After that advice she went after the Loot Train and executed the Tarlys for not bending the knee.   She seemed to be trying to be that Dragon!  Now it seems it will be her downfall based on the leaks. 

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1 hour ago, TheFirstofHerName said:

In Season 7, Episode 2 Lady Olenna told Daenerys to be a Dragon......not a sheep like most of the men in Westeros.    After that advice she went after the Loot Train and executed the Tarlys for not bending the knee.   She seemed to be trying to be that Dragon!  Now it seems it will be her downfall based on the leaks. 

It’s the Show’s ham handed way of following the book’s direction where Daenerys remembers her House words at the end of Dance: Fire and Blood.

You don’t go gathering up the Dothraki savages and haul them and three Dragons to Westeros for peaceful purposes. Dany’s arc is to bring Fire and Blood to Westeros. That part D&D didn’t make up.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, TheFirstofHerName said:

In Season 7, Episode 2 Lady Olenna told Daenerys to be a Dragon......not a sheep like most of the men in Westeros.    After that advice she went after the Loot Train and executed the Tarlys for not bending the knee.   She seemed to be trying to be that Dragon!  Now it seems it will be her downfall based on the leaks. 

I think GRRM is using Dany to illustrate the problem with WMDs/dragons in that they encourage intellectual laziness. When you have a gun dragon, all of your problems look like targets dragon food. AGOT Dany was observant, clever, resourceful, and she improved her awful situation on her own. After the dragons, she shut her brain off to an unfortunate degree and resorted to the dragons and the entitlement that comes from having dragons to solve her problems all too often. Dany's age also plays into this as she's only 13/14 whatever when she hatches the dragons and teenagers haven't yet developed the nuance of thought than an adult (hopefully) will come to have. It's a trap most would struggle with in that circumstance. And being raised by Viserys doesn't help. :wacko: 

With the Tarlys, Tyrion, the occasionally smart one, encouraged Dany to use her mind to solve the situation. Walk the messier gray road and take the time to work something out. She opted for her dragons instead which was easy and gave instant gratification. It can create a sort of feedback loop of black and white thinking which stands out in GRRM's gray world and can get progressively worse. 

Even if you have a dragon, that doesn't mean it should be your first option. If the leaks are true, Dany's a tragic figure and a casualty of her own fire. 

 

Edited by Lollygag

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2 hours ago, Maia said:

I finally broke down and watched season 7 and yea, sadly the way Dany was depicted there -  i.e. impulsive, irrational and emotionally unstable makes the leaks concerning her very likely true. Arya taking out the NK was probably  included as a SOP to cushion the blow, as was all the very quickly eliminated "girlpower". Varys looks like a completely hypocritical and ineffectual idiot who caused as much destruction as LF for less reason, while Tyrion is just hypocritical and dumb. Sigh.

If this is what GRRM had in mind I really don't understand why WoIaf,  FaB and indeed the series itself were written as they were. I mean, we have very few women in positions of power in the books, yet no fewer than 2 mad evil queens at the same time, who both would have to be put down by some male relative? Basically, not only is this repetitive, but it plays into all the unpleasant prejudices used to deny women a chance at leadership. In the book series we had Lysa, Cersei and now seemingly Dany too exhibiting these traits and proving everybody who excluded women from succession right, while nobody  remains to serve as a positive counter-example.  And while Cat technically did not excercise power independently, she did actively "meddle" and the same arguments were made about her by a substantial part of the readership.

It seemed like the   stuff in WoIaF and FaB with women being repeatedly passed over as heirs was a set-up for Dany buckling the trend, but apparently not... So will it be Sansa or is it going to be straight-up "back to the blessed patriarchy!" kind  of deal with Jon or a bastard of  Robert ending up as the "good" king? With Dany anding up as yet another cautionary tale, justifying the status quo? Speaking of the most cliche way to go, which is, apparently, supposed to be the result of all the subversions. Unfortunatly, I do not think that Sansa was sufficiently built up as a believable replacement for Dany in the show, much less in the books. 

I wont lie - I find this development extremely disappointing and not what I would have expected from Martin, and not in the good way. If it is something from DD, they would have poisoned the well, even if GRRM eventually finishes the series differently, which does not look very hopeful at the moment.

P.S. Now that I think about it, this is also a pretty close repetition of the Stannis arc. Why?! Not to mention that in the books the North does not have enough foodstuffs stored to last a Winter, so this preoccupation with independence would look even more jarring. And after her travails in Mereen, it would make no sense for book Dany to destroy the victuals that she could loot to feed her people instead.

 

I get what you're saying. What happened to Rhaenyra imo was just awful and unfair. I hate and loathe every of her half brothers. They're awful persons.

But that's also something that GRRM does: it's not as if he ever writes much likeable rulers. I actually only like Daeron the Good.

IMO he writes mostly tales on how power corrupts. It certainly attracts the worst people to try and get it, whether they are men or women, and even those who end up with it landing in their lap are too easily corrupted or get lazy and detached. And those who try very hard like Dany in Mereen and Jon as LC have to face the worst schemers. It's a minefield. And at some point you snap, retaliate, or have to lean on awful people to battle for you (like Rhaenyra turning to Daemon). The knives are always drawn. 

Personally, I don't mind it much that GRRM wouldn't be able to break the glass ceiling in his Planetos world for the absolute power of the Iron Throne, as I think it too unrealistic in his "realistic fantasy" style. I do very much appreciate, as a female reader, that he manages to write the journeys of most of his female characters as very sympathetic (including Rhaenyra... I can't for the life of me imagine why readers would come away with the idea that her half-brothers are sympathetic whatsoever), much more so than many of his male characters (except for Jon and Bran and Ned). And there are female characters in the books who will break that glass ceiling and likely will end up rulers of their house and region. Let us not forget that Arianne for example will become the ruling Princess of Dorne, Asha for the Iron Islands, and Winterfell will likely go to either Sansa or Arya. If there will be a ruling Lady at Winterfell that would be a first I believe. 

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, NonoNono said:

So the whole "Tyrion is trialed and blows up KL" and whatnot is garbage. 

Lol. Coming from the "harry Strickland is Aegon and he'll get the throne" guy, that's pretty rich.

 

9 hours ago, Han Snow said:

Jon killing her and going off to serve as 1000th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch...

Lol, wat? There's no NW anymore buddy.

Edited by Xemi

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9 hours ago, NonoNono said:

Tyrion is almost certain to live since Bran told him "his story", which is totally something someone does when someone must pass on some knowledge before they are gone, usually to someone who would live on to tell the tale. So the whole "Tyrion is trialed and blows up KL" and whatnot is garbage.

That's not exactly what Friki said was the leak: the leak is that Tyrion is tried for treason, and that there's a scene of Jon and Tyrion walking through the rubble of what's left of KL with Tyrion expressing feelings of guilt and culpability. The rest were just theories and speculations to connect the dots. And Friki actually argued against a fleaker called Tyrionkillseveryone and those who claimed Tyrion himself uses wildfire to explode the Red Keep and such. All evidence of the burning of KL points to dragon fire. The suggestion was made in January of this year by friki (in the response video on the claims of TKE) that Tyrion closes the gates, thereby dooming citizens to their fate from fire caused by the dragon. Friki also described the appearance of Tyrion during his walk with Jon through the devestation and his trial. In the first, he has short hair and beard, neatly combed. In the later his beard is thicker, longer and so is his hair and he looks dirty. In other words he's been in a cell for several months by then. 

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8 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

there's a scene of Jon and Tyrion walking through the rubble of what's left of KL with Tyrion expressing feelings of guilt and culpability.

To me, that sounds like a callback to Tyrion's brilliant speech when he was accused of killing Joffrey. He says, in his moment of anger and bitterness, that he wished the hoi polloi of KL had been slaughtered by Stannis's troops for all the gratitude he got for saving them.

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1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

I think GRRM is using Dany to illustrate the problem with WMDs/dragons in that they encourage intellectual laziness. When you have a gun dragon, all of your problems look like targets dragon food. AGOT Dany was observant, clever, resourceful, and she improved her awful situation on her own. After the dragons, she shut her brain off to an unfortunate degree and resorted to the dragons and the entitlement that comes from having dragons to solve her problems all too often. Dany's age also plays into this as she's only 13/14 whatever when she hatches the dragons and teenagers haven't yet developed the nuance of thought than an adult (hopefully) will come to have. It's a trap most would struggle with in that circumstance. And being raised by Viserys doesn't help. :wacko: 

With the Tarlys, Tyrion, the occasionally smart one, encouraged Dany to use her mind to solve the situation. Walk the messier gray road and take the time to work something out. She opted for her dragons instead which was easy and gave instant gratification. It can create a sort of feedback loop of black and white thinking which stands out in GRRM's gray world and can get progressively worse. 

Even if you have a dragon, that doesn't mean it should be your first option. If the leaks are true, Dany's a tragic figure and a casualty of her own fire. 

 

Emilia Clarke's comments about the impression that viewers would have of Daenerys, after watching her final scene, always implied to me that she'd do something awful before the end.

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3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

That's not exactly what Friki said was the leak: the leak is that Tyrion is tried for treason, and that there's a scene of Jon and Tyrion walking through the rubble of what's left of KL with Tyrion expressing feelings of guilt and culpability. The rest were just theories and speculations to connect the dots. And Friki actually argued against a fleaker called Tyrionkillseveryone and those who claimed Tyrion himself uses wildfire to explode the Red Keep and such. All evidence of the burning of KL points to dragon fire. The suggestion was made in January of this year by friki (in the response video on the claims of TKE) that Tyrion closes the gates, thereby dooming citizens to their fate from fire caused by the dragon. Friki also described the appearance of Tyrion during his walk with Jon through the devestation and his trial. In the first, he has short hair and beard, neatly combed. In the later his beard is thicker, longer and so is his hair and he looks dirty. In other words he's been in a cell for several months by then. 

Still makes no sense to me. Why would he get a little stroll through ruins with dead bodies everywhere if he has been in a cell for months? It never said he had his hands cuffed or anything like that.

It sounds like instead Tyrion has been in jail while that stuff happened, and he has been freed now that Cersei is dead and is being shown what Cersei and/or Dany did.

In the ep4 trailer we outright see the whole of KL coming into an enclosed courtyard. Cersei is seemingly going to use everyone as human shield. If anyone closes the gate on them it wouldn’t be Tyrion.

Still think Tyrion is the path to being king (thought he would be lord commander of the NW but clearly the NW is over with).

 

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5 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I think GRRM is using Dany to illustrate the problem with WMDs/dragons in that they encourage intellectual laziness. When you have a gun dragon, all of your problems look like targets dragon food. AGOT Dany was observant, clever, resourceful, and she improved her awful situation on her own. After the dragons, she shut her brain off to an unfortunate degree and resorted to the dragons and the entitlement that comes from having dragons to solve her problems all too often. Dany's age also plays into this as she's only 13/14 whatever when she hatches the dragons and teenagers haven't yet developed the nuance of thought than an adult (hopefully) will come to have. It's a trap most would struggle with in that circumstance. And being raised by Viserys doesn't help. :wacko: 

With the Tarlys, Tyrion, the occasionally smart one, encouraged Dany to use her mind to solve the situation. Walk the messier gray road and take the time to work something out. She opted for her dragons instead which was easy and gave instant gratification. It can create a sort of feedback loop of black and white thinking which stands out in GRRM's gray world and can get progressively worse. 

Even if you have a dragon, that doesn't mean it should be your first option. If the leaks are true, Dany's a tragic figure and a casualty of her own fire. 

 

I kind of don't think it's quite fair to say Dany went straight to the dragon answer on the Tarlys.  Tyrion could have been getting somewhere with the idea of having Randyl take the Black, but no...........Randyl had to do the racist bit saying 'some foreign bitch isn't his queen and can't send him to the Wall.'  Randyl begged for it.  The problem is really Dickon, though.  Tyrion should have given the 'not him' thing a try again, but.....granted, by then he was a bit scared I guess, LOL  Oh, why the hell am I even giving thought to the Ds nonsense? 

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