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Season 8: News, Spoilers And Leaks

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Btw, could you imagine Jon not being king at the end of this shitshow? The entirety of Jon's and Bran's character arcs would be worth nothing. All the build up to him being the rightful heir? Nothing. They were already laughably robbed in the Long Night of their story arcs. 

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21 minutes ago, longest night said:

Btw, could you imagine Jon not being king at the end of this shitshow? The entirety of Jon's and Bran's character arcs would be worth nothing. All the build up to him being the rightful heir? Nothing. They were already laughably robbed in the Long Night of their story arcs. 

I'm failing to see where is the sweetness? It's all bitterness, everyone ends up dead or alone.

If the spoilers are real, GRRM destroyed his own story for the sake of being "unpredictable." 

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9 minutes ago, AEJON TARGARYEN said:

If the spoilers are real, GRRM destroyed his own story for the sake of being "unpredictable." 

From interviews he has given, he seems against the idea of being unpredictable for its own sake. So i'm really hoping not. 

 

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12 minutes ago, AEJON TARGARYEN said:

I'm failing to see where is the sweetness? It's all bitterness, everyone ends up dead or alone.

If the spoilers are real, GRRM destroyed his own story for the sake of being "unpredictable." 

I can understand a tragedy. I can't understand not completing a story arch properly. Even Ned's death had a lot of foreshadowing leading up to it.

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Posted (edited)
52 minutes ago, longest night said:

Btw, could you imagine Jon not being king at the end of this shitshow? The entirety of Jon's and Bran's character arcs would be worth nothing. All the build up to him being the rightful heir? Nothing. They were already laughably robbed in the Long Night of their story arcs. 

S803 was disappointing but it's wicked and harmful to use words like shitshow.

I'd be terribly disappointed if Jon were king at the end. It would be utterly wrong for him, depressing even. People miss the point.

Bran still has important things to do.

Wait till the end before passing judgement. But if you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention. Life is not a song.

Edited by CrypticWeirwood

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3 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

S803 was disappointing but it's wicked and harmful to use words like shitshow.

I'd be terribly disappointed if Jon were king at the end. It would be utterly wrong for him, depressing even. People miss the point.

Bran still has important things to do.

Wait till the end before passing judgement. But if you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention. Life is not a song.

Isn't that the point? Jon has to kill Daenerys and assume a throne he never wanted? That's pretty damn tragic. Again, unhappy ending doesn't signify a bad ending.

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5 minutes ago, longest night said:

Isn't that the point? Jon has to kill Daenerys and assume a throne he never wanted? That's pretty damn tragic. Again, unhappy ending doesn't signify a bad ending.

I still think it's unlikely Jon will assume the throne. He'll kill Daenerys and be consumed by guilt and regret, slinking off oop north to live out his days.

I too can't see any 'sweet' aspect to a credible ending, other than peace comes to a united kingdom.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

I still think it's unlikely Jon will assume the throne. He'll kill Daenerys and be consumed by guilt and regret, slinking off oop north to live out his days.

I too can't see any 'sweet' aspect to a credible ending, other than peace comes to a united kingdom.

That would just be really crappy storytelling. All the foreshadowing in the book would lead nowhere. There's a point it goes from a tragic ending to nihilism.

Edit: I actually doubt Jon falls in love with Daenerys in the books, I would almost bet they changed it to make her death more shocking. Just like they changed Robb's marriage and put Talisa at the Red Wedding with her unborn child. D&D love their shock value.

Edited by longest night

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8 minutes ago, longest night said:

That would just be really crappy storytelling. All the foreshadowing in the book would lead nowhere. There's a point it goes from a tragic ending to nihilism.

Well,

(a) they have just combined forces to jointly save the world - I wouldn't call that nowhere, just the ending Dany wasn't intending.

(b) Peace isn't nihilism, not even to the dead as they've been spared eternity as zombies.

(c) Yeh, it's still a crap conclusion though ;)

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

Well,

(a) they have just combined forces to jointly save the world - I wouldn't call that nowhere, just the ending Dany wasn't intending.

(b) Peace isn't nihilism, not even to the dead as they've been spared eternity as zombies.

(c) Yeh, it's still a crap conclusion though ;)

Would there be peace? The entire realm will be completely decimated. With such a power vacuum, they'd probably be at war again within ten years, I'd start worrying about outside invasion that this point.

Edited by longest night

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1 minute ago, longest night said:

Would there be peace? The entire realm will be completely decimated. With such a power vacuum, they'd probably be at war again within ten years, I'd start worrying about outside invasion that this point.

With a strong ruler (dunno who that's gonna be yet) and loyal lords (Gendry, Yara, Sweetrobin, Bronn, Sansa), I think the population of Westeros can focus on rebuilding.

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

With a strong ruler (dunno who that's gonna be yet) and loyal lords (Gendry, Yara, Sweetrobin, Bronn, Sansa), I think the population of Westeros can focus on rebuilding.

So what happens if Yara gets offed and the Iron Born reelect someone else? I mean she did just decide to overthrow an elected leader. I am also quite positive people wouldn't be happy with either Gendry or Bronn.

Edited by longest night

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13 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

I still think it's unlikely Jon will assume the throne. He'll kill Daenerys and be consumed by guilt and regret, slinking off oop north to live out his days.

I too can't see any 'sweet' aspect to a credible ending, other than peace comes to a united kingdom.

It doesn't matter what Jon wants, he's the only one who can unite the south and the north, he has experience with leading people and he should prioritize the realm over his own pain.

So many people died to keep him safe, only for him to run away from his responsibilities as the rightful heir to the throne? It's bad storytelling.

But what do I know? GRRM thinks wizards should rule the world. :dunno:

Quote

But people don’t think through the consequences. They have these very powerful wizards but yet they still have kings and lords who are… why wouldn’t the wizards rule the world? I mean, power gravitates to it, you know.

http://entertainment.time.com/2011/04/18/grrm-interview-part-2-fantasy-and-history/

 

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1 minute ago, longest night said:

So what happens if Yara gets offed and the Iron Born reelect someone else? I mean she did just decide to overthrow an elected leader. I am also quite positive people wouldn't be happy with either Gendry or Bronn.

I don't see why not; of course, in terms of the show and its final episode, there's no one with a name or personality beyond who we've mentioned to object anyway.

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

I don't see why not; of course, in terms of the show and its final episode, there's no one with a name or personality beyond who we've mentioned to object anyway.

One is a peasant who would just run his entire kingdom into ruins, the other is a cutthroat who would probably just pillage his own people. 

There's literally hundreds of Houses in Westeros. Your suggestion would do nothing but exacerbate the problems with feudalism, and give more power to lords over their people. Also, why should any of these kingdoms want to stay in such a government? They can just leave and not worry what other kingdoms think about the management of their kingdoms.

Edited by longest night

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Just now, longest night said:

One is a peasant who would just run his entire kingdom into ruins, the other is a cutthroat who would probably just pillage his own people. 

There's literally hundreds of Houses in Westeros. Your suggestion would do nothing but exacerbate the problems with feudalism, and give more power to lords over their people.

Ah, no. Do you know your Mediaeval history? The peasants who survived the Black Death found themselves suddenly far more powerful because demand for their labour vastly outstripped supply. It marked the beginning of the end of feudalism in Europe.

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1 minute ago, House Cambodia said:

Ah, no. Do you know your Mediaeval history? The peasants who survived the Black Death found themselves suddenly far more powerful because demand for their labour vastly outstripped supply. It marked the beginning of the end of feudalism in Europe.

After the War of the Roses, feudalism broke down because so many houses were wiped off the map. It centralized power to the monarch.

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1 minute ago, longest night said:

After the War of the Roses, feudalism broke down because so many houses were wiped off the map. It centralized power to the monarch.

You can interpret historical events from above (kings and nobles) and from below (peasantry). both are valid, best taken in conjunction.

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2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I found an old leak that I think could be true. It would also explain some of the cagey-ness about whether or not Arya kills Cersei: 

 

I swear to God if they go for this shitty ending 

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7 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Why did he forget about the Isle of Faces and the Daynes?  Those were lovely little tidbits he created, that presumably could have gone somewhere and they went nowhere.  The books are full of these dead ends, flights of fancy, things that people think are clues but are nothing but extra worldbuilding ,that may or may not have been better off cut depending.  And we see what it lead to, everyone is a secret Targ, no one who is dead is dead, Rhaegar's rubies, the colors of the rivers and the corn code.  

The Isle of Faces is just a place that gets name dropped a couple of times. The Daynes were cool, but not really connected to any of our characters other than Ned. Mellario has the required set up to tie into the plot, one of Doran's loyal men is headed her way, her son was killed by Dany's dragons, and it was established that she would react badly to it. It fits a bit too well to be random. And making a choice about a PoV like Areo weighs a lot more than naming a location.

Dany visiting Norvos also lines up with what George said about Tyrion and Dany, that they will intersect in TWoW, but they'll spend much of the book apart. If she splits her army to take Qohor/Norvos and Volantis at the same time, that explains it.

These leaks about Dany getting triggered by some bells also evokes Norvos, but maybe they are fake leaks made up by someone who read this thread.

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