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Season 8: News, Spoilers And Leaks

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8 minutes ago, Clueless Northman said:

Frankly, at this point, I would assume many "leaks" come from the production and are sanctioned by D/D. It's a trick to lower expectations so that people will be relieved that the endgame isn't as lame or ridiculous as we've been made to fear - when under normal conditions, fans would still come close to riot due to the absurdity and sheer idiocy of what they've come up with.

Wouldn't be the first time I see this in action. I'm 99% sure the worst rumors about Lord of the Rings movies (like Arwen fighting Uruks at Helm's Deep) were leaked on purpose and on order from Peter Jackson and buddies, so that book fans would breathe a sigh of relief when the adaptations didn't turn out that bad - PJ knowing full well that hardcore fans would be pissed off at some of his changes.

I could see it being used on people like us (who look for leaks), sure. But does the average person go out and look for leaks? In my group of friends that watch the show, 12 of us, I am the only one that looks up leaks.  Though I realize my personal example doesn't mean that's what everyone does..

And even if the endings are better than what we are hearing, will it really appease die-hard book fans? No way. Show fans ..... maybe?

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2 minutes ago, btfu806 said:

I could see it being used on people like us (who look for leaks), sure. But does the average person go out and look for leaks? In my group of friends that watch the show, 12 of us, I am the only one that looks up leaks.  Though I realize my personal example doesn't mean that's what everyone does..

And even if the endings are better than what we are hearing, will it really appease die-hard book fans? No way. Show fans ..... maybe?

For leaks about how it will end? Those spread pretty fast.

Honestly, my biggest problem with the leak of jon killing danny is that it was leaked by 3 people and it is suposed to be filmed inside and be something ultra secret. I can t imagine how people could feel safe to share it on the net without being caught.

On the other hand, given that they just didn t care about the NK and there were countless extras in that battle/scene I can understand that it is leaked.

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23 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:
  1. I'm surprised you still expect this despite her Shade-of-the-Evening vision of not quite reaching the snow-covered throne itself under an open sky from the gaping hole in the ruined throne room's ceiling. I do presume you mean the literal and physical throne rather than the metaphorical one that represents her either seizing the reins of power over the Seven Kingdoms or being proclaimed or crowned the kingdom's monarch in some formal fashion.

Talking the books, not the show here. I don't really care about whatever nonsense the show showed us as 'prophecies'.

23 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:
  1. The advantage of having "one more Aegon" in the books is because it means that Young Griff will be calling himself Aegon VI Targaryen the sixth of his name, which means that Jon could make some claim to the seventh of that name if he were to reign following the Essosi pretender. Finishing up the line of Aegons with the mystical "7" number would be one of those things that Martin likes to do, and that certainly cannot happen in the show because the numbers would be off. Then again, pretenders don't get regnal names and numbers, or oughtn't. I wouldn't be surprised if he chose to borrow precedent of Tolkien using a future "Durin VIIᵗʰ and Last" as a way of founding off the reigning Durins for all time and made the final Targaryen the seventh and last Aegon.

That is Tolkien, not Martin. Martin never gives any indication that he cares about 'meaningful numbers'. Many readers try to see something special in the few numbers given, but I doubt there is any intentional meaning on the author's part in any of that.

23 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:
  1. What precedent in the created mythos of Martin's world is there for there ever being any sorcerer or sorceress so powerful as to consider dragons unimportant to him or her, the show silliness of their made-up Night King notwithstanding?  I feel like the very existence of dragons made sorcery far more important, as demonstrated by Marvyn's candles and the fire mages of mm Qarth? Volantis? who were doing actual magic not just tricks as before. I can't see any sorcerer actually brushing aside a dragon's importance, even if that were a greenseer who chose to wear the skin of fire made flesh for a joy ride.

Greenseers and Valyrian sorcerer princes. Dragonlords just fly dragons. Which is nothing compared to actual magic. Euron certainly wants a dragon, but I'm reasonably certain that he will no longer need a dragon by the time he could try to claim one. Right now he his thousands of leagues away from a dragon, so he'll have to succeed with other means. And things might work much better on that front than he ever dreamed of.

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1 hour ago, teej6 said:

Inspite of my utter disdain for D&D’s writing/ storytelling skills, these two (if they take the Dany burning innocents route) would definitely not have her burning down cities if it didn’t come from Martin. For one, they are mostly cowardly in their writing and wouldn’t go there if they had an alternative. Secondly, they were fanboys of Khaleesi and fire-proof Dany (they even had her have a second unburnt moment just for awe and spectacle) from the beginning and I suspect would have had her sit the IT and rule forever if they could. If Dany burning innocents happens on the show, I’m pretty sure we’ll see that in the books as well. Her reasons and  context for doing it will, however, be very different in the books. 

Dany is bound to burn down cities, during her career, if they offer resistance.  Most commanders offer the choice of surrender and live, or resist and die.

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1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

I noticed a lot of posters on freefolk asking about Arya, and Cersei surrendering is illogical... I'm wondering whether that this bell-sounding for surrender is Arya's part, wearing Qyburn's face. She intended to kill Cersei in order to avoid bloodshed in the city (either she or Jaime succeeded), and sounds the surrender bells as Qyburn, followed by Dany channeling Dany turning Viserys+Connington plot.

That it was Arya who sounded the bells will be revealed before Jon kills Dany then, fitting that "Jon finally sees Arya"... as in everybody wonders "what about Arya????" after seeing the Clegane brothers dead without Arya's help, and Jaime and Cersei dead without Arya's help.

I’ve been trying to figure that leak out too.  It apparently was leaked 9 months ago by a source that correctly spoiled Jon would fight a dragon with blue fire coming out it’s neck and also Missandei’s beheading by The Mountain.  My initial reaction was that he really doesn’t recognize Ayra at first but then finally sees it is Ayra.  Maybe she unmasks herself during a crucial moment.

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50 minutes ago, divica said:

For leaks about how it will end? Those spread pretty fast.

Honestly, my biggest problem with the leak of jon killing danny is that it was leaked by 3 people and it is suposed to be filmed inside and be something ultra secret. I can t imagine how people could feel safe to share it on the net without being caught.

On the other hand, given that they just didn t care about the NK and there were countless extras in that battle/scene I can understand that it is leaked.

Maybe there’s a slight chance we are being snookered.  If you do a Google search about Daenerys the Mad Queen then you will see it is being talked about in The Washington Post, Elle, People, Time, etc.   Could this be misdirection by the HBO PR department?

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5 minutes ago, TheFirstofHerName said:

Maybe there’s a slight chance we are being snookered.  If you do a Google search about Daenerys the Mad Queen then you will see it is being talked about in The Washington Post, Elle, People, Time, etc.   Could this be misdirection by the HBO PR department?

It is just strange that the moment that they should do all that they can to keep secret got leaked. And there weren t extras in the scene. 

If HBO wanted they should be able to find who leaked it months ago. 

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1 minute ago, SeanF said:

Dany is bound to burn down cities, during her career, if they offer resistance.  Most commanders offer the choice of surrender and live, or resist and die.

The point I was making was that although there are several things to blame D&D for, the Dany burning KL plot (if true) is not one of them. As always, their execution and Dany’s progression to a destructive force will be handled in their usual ham-fisted and lazy way.

Dany in the books has already on many occasions acted impulsively and vengefully, and I’m one of those who believe that innocents fell victim to her anger. You say that she is bound to burn cities, but when does all this burning and destruction become genocide? Would you call what she did in Astapor genocide? Or is that acceptable because it was a city of slavers? What if she does the same in Dorne? Will that then be genocide?

I don’t know if in Martin’s view that in order to create a new and better world order, one has to destroy the old? And if so, how much collateral damage is acceptable to achieve this end?

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

That is Tolkien, not Martin. Martin never gives any indication that he cares about 'meaningful numbers'. Many readers try to see something special in the few numbers given, but I doubt there is any intentional meaning on the author's part in any of that.

I feel like Martin intended for the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch numbers to make us try to see something special in those numbers, whether it's Mormont at 997 or the Night's King at 13. Jon's at 998, and maybe we can call Ed 999. It may of course be a feint but that would be deliberate on his part, not just readers going off the deep end again.

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44 minutes ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

LOLOL  So, AGAIN, we are all just lining up armies outside of some insta cheap looking walls.  I can't believe Winterfell actually got better walls, that must have killed the Ds.  And, Varys actually walking with Jon?  Is he BEGGING to get burned?  OMG!!  The Stupidity is what still reigns and with these Ds it will be eternal, who cares about that stupid throne. 

Someone said they looked like the walls from the movie Troy which one of the Ds wrote, so perhaps just recycled. Another said it looked like a Monty Python set. 

1 hour ago, Sir Hedge of Hog said:

well I heard that cersei goes insane from the bells (shame, shame) and blows up KL with wild fire. The populace blame dany. dany forces get lannisters to surrender, hence jon meeting cersei, but grey worm chucks his spear and spanner in the works. dany forces go wild.

jon thinks dany destroyed KL, when it is was really the wildfire. He kills dany because of this.

not sure which is worse. dany going mad and jon killing her or jon killing her not being aware that she was innocent of all this. think I prefer her going mad.

Jon should recognize green fire isn't dragon fire. Then we might have the dragon fire light up a wildfire store. Wildfire and regular fire also behave completely differently with wildfire spreading more quickly and being a lot hotter. It also burns on water. It just seems really weird that there's confusion over this. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Dany is bound to burn down cities, during her career, if they offer resistance.  Most commanders offer the choice of surrender and live, or resist and die.

Agreed, but unlike readers cheering her for doing it to cardboard evil slavers in Essos, it will leave a different taste to the reader if those are places we know enough sympathetic characters such as book Tyrells and Arianne.

Now I do think this bell stuff (if true )is likely a plotzee from Connington's arc who is desperate to win the 7k fast, because of his greyscale, which will also affect his brain. But fAegon and Arianne will be portrayed as overall sympathetic characters, with fAegon wanting to be heroic. And he would execute Jon Connington if he goes nuts on KL civilians because of bells. So, I epxect him to just start to establish a peaceful, better reign again. (Cersei slithers off to CR I imagine). Hell, he might live long enough to promise armed support to the North or the Wall.

Meanwhile, I am expecting something like the Night Lamp theory where Stannis manages to defeat the Boltons. Even if we already know his attempt to gain the throne are doomed, he would then still be a tragic and sympathetic hero who helped the Starks get the North back.

That will be the moment when Dany arrives at Westeros, having freed Essos from slavery by gathering the Dothraki (the slave catchers and makers), Slaver's Bray (the slave markets) under her control, as well as force the Free Cities that buy slaves into abandoning their side, after Volantis falls. So, she leaves Essos a hero (using ruthless tactics), only to be confronted with claimants who will be much more sympathetic characters in the reader's eye. And since she will regard both these claimants as usurpers or fakes, she will not feel the need to hold back, nor their houes. So, then her tactics won't look as pump-fisting "got what you deserved" anymore. George is not going to pit Cersei and Dany against one another the moment when Dany arrives. Hell Cersei wasn't even part of her HotU visions. Northern mixed sentiments will make more sense then once she ventures North with dragons to help out against the threat of the Others. 

And while I do not believe George will have her plummet into Hell Bells crazy, I'm starting to think that he will have her turn more into her paranoid and narcissistic brother Viserys. Except for epi 3, d&d have consistently paralleled Dany with Viserys and she will share a similar fate. They're not subtle and smart enough writers imo to come up with that by themselves. And when you read her aGoT chapters after Viserys' death and the HotU chapters, Viserys has a haunting presence as if he's trying to reach out from his grave to make her pay. Her complete isolation from Westeros growing up and only truly relating to an absolute power of one head (whether family or ruling Khal) instead of three because of Viserys' abuse, truly deprives her of being anything but frustrated with Qarth and Mereen (ruled by equal power factions) and ultimately the 7K. It makes sense to me that while Dany thrived amongst the Dothraki and Viserys was completely out of his depth there (and would have been if he had been a decent young man), Dany will have great issues in adapting to Westeros culture. She gave up on Mereen's floppy ears after all and decided "fire and blood" there, and that's just one city, not an entire contintent the size of the Americas.

Edited by sweetsunray

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1 hour ago, TheFirstofHerName said:

I’ve been trying to figure that leak out too.  It apparently was leaked 9 months ago by a source that correctly spoiled Jon would fight a dragon with blue fire coming out it’s neck and also Missandei’s beheading by The Mountain.  My initial reaction was that he really doesn’t recognize Ayra at first but then finally sees it is Ayra.  Maybe she unmasks herself during a crucial moment.

Alternatively Arya kills Cersei as Qyburn and Jaime is the one ringing the bells to have everyone surrender and avoid more bloodshed, only to end up plumetting to his death if Dany attacks the keep.

I just saw a still on twitter of one of the season 8 promos (don't know which one), where you see the GC march out of the city, and a hooded man with his back to us walking into the city (in the background). And further in the background, you can see the city's outline, with the bell tower in plain sight. You could argue that's where the hooded figure is going. It was after all Jaime who entered WF in epi 1 as a hooded figure. Maybe that's how he hopes to save both Lannister soldiers, KL civilians and Cersei. Sounding the bells to surrender, and maybe that's why he left WF. I know some leaks embellish with Jaime fighting Euron and getting mortally wounded, but I find those leaks suspect, especially since Euron's getting his ass burned by Drogon when Dany attacks his fleet using the sunlight as her shield to make it difficult for him to ballista Drogon. Euron's toast.

Cersei is not going to surrender. And Qyburn is the most appropriate character for Arya to steal a face from. Her using a face not to kill but to save a city would work for her arc. But I don't think Arya would even know that ringing bells in the city would be taken by citizens and soldiers as a signal to stand down. Jaime definitely would though. And it would fit his redemption arc as well as his backstory: he tried to save KL from being burned by murdering the Mad King, only to have it ransacked by his father's troops, to now try to prevent both by sounding the bells, only to have both occur.

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10
22 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Agreed, but unlike readers cheering her for doing it to cardboard evil slavers in Essos, it will leave a different taste to the reader if those are places we know enough sympathetic characters such as book Tyrells and Arianne.

Now I do think this bell stuff (if true )is likely a plotzee from Connington's arc who is desperate to win the 7k fast, because of his greyscale, which will also affect his brain. But fAegon and Arianne will be portrayed as overall sympathetic characters, with fAegon wanting to be heroic. And he would execute Jon Connington if he goes nuts on KL civilians because of bells. So, I epxect him to just start to establish a peaceful, better reign again. (Cersei slithers off to CR I imagine). Hell, he might live long enough to promise armed support to the North or the Wall.

Meanwhile, I am expecting something like the Night Lamp theory where Stannis manages to defeat the Boltons. Even if we already know his attempt to gain the throne are doomed, he would then still be a tragic and sympathetic hero who helped the Starks get the North back.

That will be the moment when Dany arrives at Westeros, having freed Essos from slavery by gathering the Dothraki (the slave catchers and makers), Slaver's Bray (the slave markets) under her control, as well as force the Free Cities that buy slaves into abandoning their side, after Volantis falls. So, she leaves Essos a hero (using ruthless tactics), only to be confronted with claimants who will be much more sympathetic characters in the reader's eye. And since she will regard both these claimants as usurpers or fakes, she will not feel the need to hold back, nor their houes. So, then her tactics won't look as pump-fisting "got what you deserved" anymore. George is not going to pit Cersei and Dany against one another the moment when Dany arrives. Hell Cersei wasn't even part of her HotU visions. Northern mixed sentiments will make more sense then once she ventures North with dragons to help out against the threat of the Others. 

And while I do not believe George will have her plummet into Hell Bells crazy, I'm starting to think that he will have her turn more into her paranoid and narcissistic brother Viserys. Except for epi 3, d&d have consistently paralleled Dany with Viserys and she will share a similar fate. They're not subtle and smart enough writers imo to come up with that by themselves. And when you read her aGoT chapters after Viserys' death and the HotU chapters, Viserys has a haunting presence as if he's trying to reach out from his grave to make her pay. Her complete isolation from Westeros growing up and only truly relating to an absolute power of one head (whether family or ruling Khal) instead of three because of Viserys' abuse, truly deprives her of being anything but frustrated with Qarth and Mereen (ruled by equal power factions) and ultimately the 7K. It makes sense to me that while Dany thrived amongst the Dothraki and Viserys was completely out of his depth there (and would have been if he had been a decent young man), Dany will have great issues in adapting to Westeros culture. She gave up on Mereen's floppy ears after all and decided "fire and blood" there, and that's just one city, not an entire contintent the size of the Americas.

I disagree with the notion that Martin has somehow paralleled Dany with Viserys. If anything, he's made it clear from the beginning of the story that she was always Rhaeger's sister. From her dream of wearing Rhaegar's armour to the Dothraki respecting her rather than Viserys. Dany is also far from narcissistic and paranoid, one of her main criticisms throughout the story is that she has trusted multiple people that she shouldn't have trusted. The maegi Mirri and the Green Grace are just a few examples.

Yes, Dany can be impulsive and emotional which can lead her to make needless aggressive decisions and her fire and blood stance at the end of the book does show her going towards a more ruthless stance but that doesn't equal "mad". It just means that she won't be afraid to make difficult decisions which were the opposite of what she did in Meereen.  

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19 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Alternatively Arya kills Cersei as Qyburn and Jaime is the one ringing the bells to have everyone surrender and avoid more bloodshed, only to end up plumetting to his death if Dany attacks the keep.

I just saw a still on twitter of one of the season 8 promos (don't know which one), where you see the GC march out of the city, and a hooded man with his back to us walking into the city (in the background). And further in the background, you can see the city's outline, with the bell tower in plain sight. You could argue that's where the hooded figure is going. It was after all Jaime who entered WF in epi 1 as a hooded figure. Maybe that's how he hopes to save both Lannister soldiers, KL civilians and Cersei. Sounding the bells to surrender, and maybe that's why he left WF. I know some leaks embellish with Jaime fighting Euron and getting mortally wounded, but I find those leaks suspect, especially since Euron's getting his ass burned by Drogon when Dany attacks his fleet using the sunlight as her shield to make it difficult for him to ballista Drogon. Euron's toast.

Cersei is not going to surrender. And Qyburn is the most appropriate character for Arya to steal a face from. Her using a face not to kill but to save a city would work for her arc. But I don't think Arya would even know that ringing bells in the city would be taken by citizens and soldiers as a signal to stand down. Jaime definitely would though. And it would fit his redemption arc as well as his backstory: he tried to save KL from being burned by murdering the Mad King, only to have it ransacked by his father's troops, to now try to prevent both by sounding the bells, only to have both occur.

Cersei could only expect execution, if she were now to surrender 

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50 minutes ago, The Prince who was not pro said:

No clue but they are a nice compilation of them all.  Pyrotechnics team testing fuel that glowed green has been added from the Walking Dead Spoiler Group.  Wildfire.

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14 hours ago, tws1978 said:

Well, if it really ends as the leaks hints I´m not sure how will anyone ever be able to rewatch the show. Most of the main plots have turned pointless. Why watch Dany grow and go through her mistakes for 7 seasons, when it´s all turned to ash in the last three episodes? 

Why watch any tragedy then? 

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The problem is not so much what happens, but how it happens. 

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At Queen Alysanne (sorry couldn't quote your post, because of some weird reason, while I can others, not even copy your text):

Nowhere did I say that GRRM is paralleling Dany to Viserys RIGHT NOW in the books. Nor does it make any sense for George to do so before Dany gets to Westeros.

What was Viserys' frustration?

  • That he had to make allies with a society and culture he does not recognize as his own.
  • That the Dothraki looked after their own interests first, and that they one day will make good on their promise, but first this and then that. They tarried.
  • He felt disrespected by them.
  • He grew to fear that his own sister would betray him

As a consequence, his behaviour and his paranoia only alienated him more from the sole allies he knew he had, including his own blood, until he felt so isolated he acted rash. It didn't matter how many times Dany reassured him he was her king, that she would see to it that her husband would help him. She tried to temper him, advise him, warn him, explain Dothraki culture to him, all to no avail. She was in her element with the Dothraki and came into her own with them. Viserys was not, and he unraveled fast. And it led to his doom, with Dany watching it unfold and never protesting against it. 

We have two examples of Dany coming into contact with a governmental form that is not like the Dothraki one (one stallion who leads all): Qarth and Mereen. She is completely baffled by having to go to this faction and then that faction at Qarth to ask for help, truly expecting them they would, but they don't give a rat's ass. In the books she basically flees ASAP. In the show she has her Dothraki plunder the city. Dany conquers Mereen. But not only does she have to rule freed slaves. She also has to rule several large former slaver families (who each are a faction with their own pyramid, using their own color for their tokhar). And yes, some of these families are behind the insurgence in Mereen. And as the Mereenese Knot essay argued really well, Dany makes a true effort in achieving peace adn actually managed to get her peace inside the walls of Mereen. But ultimately she's very bored by having to deal with these families, their petititions, having to wear what she calls "floppy ears", and she considers Hizdar a bore too. It ends with her flying away on Drogon and rejecting the peaceful way where she adapts herself to the cultural customs of the city she rules (barring slavery), an increased loneliness and wishing for Jorah Mormont, and mentally embracing "fire and blood" instead. It is no coincidence that Dany is portrayed as being in her element as Khaleesi, but frustrated and bored to no end in Qarth and Mereen, nor that it ultimately makes her embrace the Targaryen words. Dany wants the Iron Throne and rule Westeros, but they too have a political system of several factions (Houses) who a) have armies b) political power. And unfortunately for her, she can't swoop in as the savior there to free people from slavery. There is no slavery in Westeros. She will meet the same frustrations and boredom with the "floppy ears" adaption in Westeros as she does in Qarth and Mereen. But Westeros is way way bigger. The Houses and factions are spread out across a giant ass continent, not nicely concentrated in one city. Even if her personal armies - Unsullied and the expected Dothraki, sellword companies and Vic's Ironborn - are considerable in size, they are too small to occupy all of Westeros and keep the Houses under her thumb. She will have to form alliances with Houses who may be able to field as many as her own personal armies. And because of that they will have more say in when they will join in a war she might want to inflict on another house. Ultimately she will have to depend on those allies to get it done. If she loses a dragon (killed or stolen), she will have to depend on them more. If she loses Vic's fleet, she will have to depend on Westerosi allies more. If Dothraki loses numbers against the walls and knights of Westeros, she will have to depend on Westerosi allies more. Can you see the situation where she ultimately will end up in? The exact same one as Viserys was: having to depend on allies of a culture she is unfamiliar with and already twice heavily frustrated over because they will make sure their own interests are guaranteed. And this time she cannot use the excuse of "I'm saving you from slavery" anymore. So, she will have to go "It is my birtright. Help me get my throne that is rightuflly mine". And who will she start to sound like in the eyes of Westerosi? Like Viserys. That was my point.

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I hope Bran does become king. It's so wild and stupid and funny, it would round the show out so fittingly.

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