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Season 8: News, Spoilers And Leaks

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Posted (edited)
On 4/4/2018 at 7:16 PM, goldenmaps said:

That is an interesting pattern.  A lot of the great houses have this pattern.  Personally I think because of the wars that happened in Westeros in the last 30 years and the devastation that came with these wars, that this pattern will be broken.

The Stark look is tied to the Starks, and so the Stark line will likely pass down through someone who has that look. That the line would be passed down through someone who 1) doesn't have the Stark look, 2) has the Tully look would run against that. And while GRRM is taking a wrecking ball to Westeros, he's always been pretty clear in the books about the Stark line enduring, and the Stark look is part of that. 

 

On 4/7/2018 at 0:48 PM, Meera of Tarth said:

Or maybe Bran as one of the Starkest in nature despite of his looks can end up being KITN.

Even if Bran does end up KITN (possible but unlikely in my opinion), Bran won't perpetuate the Stark line, and nor will the other "Red Starks" as @Lollygag put it in all likelihood. Robb's dead, Rickon's probably going to die in the books, Bran can't have kids, and Sansa even if she lives is unlikely to remarry after everything she's been through. That leaves the Dark Starks.

 

4 hours ago, Lollygag said:

GRRM isn’t so silly nor so obvious as to telegraph character fates by hair color: Dark Lannister: die, Red Stark: die, Dark Targaryen: die, Blonde Lannister: some live to procreate, Dark Stark: some live to procreate…hair color says nothing either way about any character’s fate in the books proper.

Not really. The three Stark kids GRRM identified as safe in GRRM's original outline are two Dark Starks (Jon and Arya) and a Red Stark who, very conveniently for GRRM's purposes, can't have kids (Bran). The outline also stated outright that one Red Stark (Robb) would die and strongly implied that another (Sansa) was doomed. We don't know if GRRM plans on killing off Book Rickon, but his fate in the show suggests that's a likely outcome as well.

GRRM seems to have set up a situation where there will be no Red Starks left to carry on the Stark line, thus ensuring that whoever continues the Stark line--Arya if she marries down, Jon if he gives one of his Targ kids with Dany the Stark name--will be a Dark Stark possessing the distinctive Stark look. It's not a coincidence, in my opinion. It will also be GRRM's ultimate revenge on poor Catelyn for her treatment of Jon and Arya: one (or both) of them will be the one(s) to carry on the Stark legacy, while the Red Starks are wiped out. (Bonus points if the one is Jon, since that would be Catelyn's worst nightmare realized, but Jon's apparently a legit Targ in the books if the show is to be believed, so we'll see.)

With all that said, I do agree with the broader point that the fact that a character fails to possess the distinctive look of the house isn't necessarily going to get killed off, but that has nothing to do with whether or not that character will continue the family line. Book Tyrion is a good example: he's safe according to GRRM's outline, but he's the black sheep when it comes to the "Lannister look" (white-blonde and black hair, one black eye). It doesn't mean he's doomed, but it does mean he's not going to be the next Lannister patriarch and continue the family line (...which we all kind of figured anywa). Ditto for Sansa: she doesn't have to die, all she has to do is stay single (or marry without having kids).

 

2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I agree about Bran being the most traditionally Stark-like. Maester Luwin even tells him that he is "truly his father's son" as he lay dying in ACOK. 

Well, he lacks the Stark look, so he's not the most traditionally Stark like. Arya probably takes that prize. Stark look? Check. Hotheaded wolf blood? Check. Direwolf? Check. (TV Bran also seems to have lost his Starkness with his transformation into the 3ER, as symbolized by the loss of his direwolf, so there's also that to consider in terms of Book Bran's endgame.)

Edited by Newstar

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34 minutes ago, Newstar said:

Not really. The three Stark kids GRRM identified as safe in GRRM's original outline are two Dark Starks (Jon and Arya) and a Red Stark who, very conveniently for GRRM's purposes, can't have kids (Bran). The outline also stated outright that one Red Stark (Robb) would die and strongly implied that another (Sansa) was doomed. We don't know if GRRM plans on killing off Book Rickon, but his fate in the show suggests that's a likely outcome as well.

GRRM seems to have set up a situation where there will be no Red Starks left to carry on the Stark line, thus ensuring that whoever continues the Stark line--Arya if she marries down, Jon if he gives one of his Targ kids with Dany the Stark name--will be a Dark Stark possessing the distinctive Stark look. It's not a coincidence, in my opinion. It will also be GRRM's ultimate revenge on poor Catelyn for her treatment of Jon and Arya: one (or both) of them will be the one(s) to carry on the Stark legacy, while the Red Starks are wiped out. (Bonus points if the one is Jon, since that would be Catelyn's worst nightmare realized, but Jon's apparently a legit Targ in the books if the show is to be believed, so we'll see.)

With all that said, I do agree with the broader point that the fact that a character fails to possess the distinctive look of the house isn't necessarily going to get killed off, but that has nothing to do with whether or not that character will continue the family line. Book Tyrion is a good example: he's safe according to GRRM's outline, but he's the black sheep when it comes to the "Lannister look" (white-blonde and black hair, one black eye). It doesn't mean he's doomed, but it does mean he's not going to be the next Lannister patriarch and continue the family line (...which we all kind of figured anywa). Ditto for Sansa: she doesn't have to die, all she has to do is stay single (or marry without having kids).

I can't really comment as the outline holds no weight with me and much of your view hinges on that. To take it further, I'm not a fan of forecasting the character end games of the books or show (for different reasons) to say the least.

http://time.com/3994289/george-rr-martin-game-of-thrones-song-of-fire-and-ice-ending/

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Have you all wondered that maybe George played with the looks of the characters for a reason? Jon Snow is a true born Targaryen, who will probably restaure House Targaryen in the Iron Throne, but he looks like a Stark; Sansa was the Stark child that took back the North and put House Stark back at Winterfell, yet she looks like a Tully. 

Jon got his looks from his mother, but his sad and brooding personlaity comes form his father; Sansa got her looks from her mother, but she is the Stark child that most acts like Ned. 

I see a lot of people  in forums saying that Sansa is not a real Stark and more like a Tully just because she looks like her mother and I just want to point out that yes, she looks like a Tully, but inside Sansa is very similar to Ned Stark; the same can be said about Arya, who looks like Ned Stark but her personality is very similar to Catelyn. George did that on purpose.

Arya seeks revenge like her mother; after her father was killed all she ever thought was to kill those who wronged House Stark, she is jealous like Catelyn used to be of Ned (she was furious when Edric Dayne said the Ned Stark loved another woman) and can be very hot headed. Let me be clear, I am not bashing Arya, those are very regular characteristics and I actually like those aspects of Arya.

Sansa in the other hand is naive, sweet and trustful just like papa Ned. Sansa refused to see how terrible Joffrey really was, because she was in love with him, just like Ned who refused to see that his best friend Robert Baratheon was no longer the man he met years ago, Robert was now a drunk, fat irresponsible King, but Ned didn’t want to see it.

Sansa runs to Cersei to tell her the Ned’s plans to leave KL, believing that Cersei could never hurt her; the same damn thing was done by Ned, who runs to Cersei to let her know that he knew it about the incest and her affair with Jaime, believing that Cersei would just runaway and never hurt him or his family. They both payed it a huge price for their mistakes.

In the books, Sansa who very was abused and mistreated by Joffrey, actually feels sad for his death, because she is such gentle and kind person, just like Ned. All Ned wanted after the Rebelion was go back to Winterfell, rebuild his family and live a peaceful life, that’s pretty much all Sansa wants in the books too, she never has plans about avenging her family or plots to murder those who treat her badly. She wants love, family and peace. She dreams about having children and playing in the garden with puppies. 

I am always amazed at how people think Arya is the only true Stark daughter, when Sansa has so much of  papa Ned, but then again, Ned was never like his brother Barndon or even his sister Lyanna, he didnt have much of the Wolf Blood in him.

 

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Posted (edited)

Oh, and I have no doubt in my mind that Sansa will be the one restauring House Stark and passing her name to her children. Marriage and motherhood has been a constant in her book and tv show arc and we had characters like Littlefinger point out "you my love, are the future of House Stark" for a reason. 

Edited by prettylongclaw

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, prettylongclaw said:

Have you all wondered that maybe George played with the looks of the characters for a reason? Jon Snow is a true born Targaryen, who will probably restaure House Targaryen in the Iron Throne, but he looks like a Stark

Jon doesn't offend GRRM's apparent Dark Targs Don't Continue the Line rule, since he'll have a kid (or kids) with Targ-looking Dany. If Jon married a non-Targ and had Stark-looking Targ babies, that would be groundbreaking, but there's no indication that's what will happen.

 

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snip

Although Sansa and Ned aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer, I think Sansa otherwise really isn't like Ned at all, being self-interested (unlike unselfish Ned), status-obsessed (Ned balks at being named Hand, while Sansa drools over the prospect of being queen) and superficial (Sansa is entranced by Margaery's beauty and ladylike qualities and realizes too late that the Tyrells were using her, Ned observes that Robert failed to see the iron underneath Lyanna's beauty). Ned is chiefly noted for being humble, loyal and honourable (to a fault), and Sansa isn't any of those things. That's more a matter for another thread, though.

I think Arya is Lyanna 2.0. The "Catelyn" traits you describe--concern with revenge, romantic notions, impulsiveness--actually apply to Lyanna. Again, though, that's more for another thread.

To be fair, I agree that Ned is not a typical Stark, either, since what we know of the "wolf blood" Starks (Arya, Brandon and Lyanna) and of the historical Starks suggests a rather wild bunch. However, he does have the Stark look, which Sansa lacks.

As for your complaint that fans don't consider Sansa a true Stark daughter, let's hear from the man himself on the issue:

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In regards to the conversation about the dire wolves and the Starks the point was made (I forget by whom) that Lady was dead and Sansa still alive to which I replied that Sansa wasn't really much of a Stark anymore. IIRC (this is a little hazy), at this point GRRM kind of leaned back in his chair, smiled and said something to the effect of "A very astute observation."

Sansa getting the living symbol of her Stark identity killed symbolizes the loss of her Starkness. She'll always be a Stark in the sense that she's a trueborn daughter of Ned Stark, and I believe in the books that her stint as Alayne Stone is temporary, but I guess what you could call her spiritual Stark essence is gone for good.

 

1 hour ago, prettylongclaw said:

Oh, and I have no doubt in my mind that Sansa will be the one restauring House Stark and passing her name to her children

I am reasonably certain she is going to die without issue, just as Robb did and Bran and (I assume) Rickon will. The show has set this up with her traumatic marriages. Outline Sansa died without living issue as well (since her one child is murdered). 

 

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Marriage and motherhood has been a constant in her book and tv show arc

"Marriage (...) has been a constant in her book and tv show arc" only to the extent that Sansa has been turned off marriage, probably for good. TV Sansa still feels the physical pain in her body from her marriage (and the show may or may not have implied that Ramsay cut her in ways that would make sex painful for her), and Book Sansa is souring on marriage.

TV Sansa's trauma ties in neatly to GRRM ensuring that the Red Starks don't continue the Stark line. Sansa can hardly continue the Stark line if she isn't going to have sex ever again. We know that D&D decided very early on in the show to marry Sansa off to Ramsay (around Season 2). D&D have probably known for a long time that it was never Sansa's endgame to be married with kids, either in the books or the show, which is why they felt comfortable swapping her in for Jeyne Poole and marrying her off to a psychopath to be raped, tortured, and turned off marriage for good.

As for "motherhood being a constant theme," Book Sansa wanting kids doesn't mean that she'll have any. Book Sansa's hopes of having kids are really only tied into whatever fantasy she's entertaining at any particular time (Joffrey and being queen, pleasant river barge trips at Highgarden). The reality of motherhood she finds far less appetizing, as her callous attitude towards Sweetrobin in the books reveals. 

 

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and we had characters like Littlefinger point out "you my love, are the future of House Stark" for a reason.

And of course Littlefinger has never been mistaken in the show about anything. :)

Edited by Newstar

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Posted (edited)
49 minutes ago, Newstar said:

Jon doesn't offend GRRM's apparent Dark Targs Don't Continue the Line rule, since he'll have a kid (or kids) with Targ-looking Dany. If Jon married a non-Targ and had Stark-looking Targ babies, that would be groundbreaking, but there's no indication that's what will happen.

 

Although Sansa and Ned aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer, I think Sansa otherwise really isn't like Ned at all, being self-interested (unlike unselfish Ned), status-obsessed (Ned balks at being named Hand, while Sansa drools over the prospect of being queen) and superficial (Sansa is entranced by Margaery's beauty and ladylike qualities and realizes too late that the Tyrells were using her, Ned observes that Robert failed to see the iron underneath Lyanna's beauty). Ned is chiefly noted for being humble, loyal and honourable (to a fault), and Sansa isn't any of those things. That's more a matter for another thread, though.

I think Arya is Lyanna 2.0. The "Catelyn" traits you describe--concern with revenge, romantic notions, impulsiveness--actually apply to Lyanna. Again, though, that's more for another thread.

To be fair, I agree that Ned is not a typical Stark, either, since what we know of the "wolf blood" Starks (Arya, Brandon and Lyanna) and of the historical Starks suggests a rather wild bunch. However, he does have the Stark look, which Sansa lacks.

As for your complaint that fans don't consider Sansa a true Stark daughter, let's hear from the man himself on the issue:

Sansa getting the living symbol of her Stark identity killed symbolizes the loss of her Starkness. She'll always be a Stark in the sense that she's a trueborn daughter of Ned Stark, and I believe in the books that her stint as Alayne Stone is temporary, but I guess what you could call her spiritual Stark essence is gone for good.

 

I am reasonably certain she is going to die without issue, just as Robb did and Bran and (I assume) Rickon will. The show has set this up with her traumatic marriages. Outline Sansa died without living issue as well (since her one child is murdered). 

 

"Marriage (...) has been a constant in her book and tv show arc" only to the extent that Sansa has been turned off marriage, probably for good. TV Sansa still feels the physical pain in her body from her marriage (and the show may or may not have implied that Ramsay cut her in ways that would make sex painful for her), and Book Sansa is souring on marriage.

TV Sansa's trauma ties in neatly to GRRM ensuring that the Red Starks don't continue the Stark line. Sansa can hardly continue the Stark line if she isn't going to have sex ever again. We know that D&D decided very early on in the show to marry Sansa off to Ramsay (around Season 2). D&D have probably known for a long time that it was never Sansa's endgame to be married with kids, either in the books or the show, which is why they felt comfortable swapping her in for Jeyne Poole and marrying her off to a psychopath to be raped, tortured, and turned off marriage for good.

As for "motherhood being a constant theme," Book Sansa wanting kids doesn't mean that she'll have any. Book Sansa's hopes of having kids are really only tied into whatever fantasy she's entertaining at any particular time (Joffrey and being queen, pleasant river barge trips at Highgarden). The reality of motherhood she finds far less appetizing, as her callous attitude towards Sweetrobin in the books reveals. 

 

And of course Littlefinger has never been mistaken in the show about anything. :)

What do you make of the resolution of her Season 7 arc?

Do you not think her resisting the temptation to go for the Northern Crown and deciding to unite with her siblings against Littlefinger represented a turn for her away from the influences of her non Stark teachers towards her heritage? 

I thought it was potentially symbolic that she went from admiring Cersei in the first episode and not knowing her fathers sayings to quoting her father in her final scene of the season

i def think she exhibited all sorts of non traditional Stark tendencies throughout Seasons 6 and 7. But wonder if turning on LF was indicistive of her reaching a new place internally. 

Edited by jcmontea

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1 hour ago, jcmontea said:

What do you make of the resolution of her Season 7 arc?

Do you not think her resisting the temptation to go for the Northern Crown and deciding to unite with her siblings against Littlefinger represented a turn for her away from the influences of her non Stark teachers towards her heritage? 

I thought it was potentially symbolic that she went from admiring Cersei in the first episode and not knowing her fathers sayings to quoting her father in her final scene of the season

i def think she exhibited all sorts of non traditional Stark tendencies throughout Seasons 6 and 7. But wonder if turning on LF was indicistive of her reaching a new place internally. 

If she’s turning back toward her heritage, she should have killed Littlefinger personally. “The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword.” If she stands in judgement as her father did, she should conduct the execution. Maybe not decapitation, perhaps a throat slitting. Would have felt more meaningful that way, and different from Joffrey, who was a coward and relied on a headsman to behead her father. Note that the executions we see apart from Ned’s are done by a lord, from Ned, to Theon (poorly), to Robb, to Jon.

Besides, seeing how she got all the info to turn on Littlefinger would have helped, because it felt rather contrived. She’s supposed to be this great schemer, yet I get the feeling she was genuinely played for at least part of the time. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, jcmontea said:

Do you not think her resisting the temptation to go for the Northern Crown and deciding to unite with her siblings against Littlefinger represented a turn for her away from the influences of her non Stark teachers towards her heritage? 

In a word, no, since there's no indication that TV Sansa 1) stopped admiring Cersei, 2) stopped wishing that she could rule the North instead of Jon or 3) rejected LF's way of doing things. Sansa was happy to keep LF around as long as he was useful to her (until he forced her hand by pitting her against Arya) and felt conflicted over ordering his execution.

TV Sansa still continues to dress in outfits inspired by her various non-Stark teachers (feathers and needle necklace from the mockingbird dress, X patterns from the Bolton sigil, etc.) and wear her hair like Cersei did in earlier seasons. Compare this to Arya, who wears her hair like Ned and dresses like him. So no, I don't think it's at all established that Sansa has rediscovered her "Starkness." Sansa's essential Starkness is gone for good along with her direwolf, and her costuming in the show reflects that.

 

34 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

If she’s turning back toward her heritage, she should have killed Littlefinger personally. “The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword.” If she stands in judgement as her father did, she should conduct the execution. Maybe not decapitation, perhaps a throat slitting. Would have felt more meaningful that way, and different from Joffrey, who was a coward and relied on a headsman to behead her father. Note that the executions we see apart from Ned’s are done by a lord, from Ned, to Theon (poorly), to Robb, to Jon.

Good point. Arya (dressed and styled like a mini-Ned) carries out the sentence, not Sansa. Very interesting.

Edited by Newstar

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3 hours ago, Newstar said:

AysJon doesn't offend GRRM's apparent Dark Targs Don't Continue the Line rule, since he'll have a kid (or kids) with Targ-looking Dany. If Jon married a non-Targ and had Stark-looking Targ babies, that would be groundbreaking, but there's no indication that's what will happen.

 

Although Sansa and Ned aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer, I think Sansa otherwise really isn't like Ned at all, being self-interested (unlike unselfish Ned), status-obsessed (Ned balks at being named Hand, while Sansa drools over the prospect of being queen) and superficial (Sansa is entranced by Margaery's beauty and ladylike qualities and realizes too late that the Tyrells were using her, Ned observes that Robert failed to see the iron underneath Lyanna's beauty). Ned is chiefly noted for being humble, loyal and honourable (to a fault), and Sansa isn't any of those things. That's more a matter for another thread, though.

I think Arya is Lyanna 2.0. The "Catelyn" traits you describe--concern with revenge, romantic notions, impulsiveness--actually apply to Lyanna. Again, though, that's more for another thread.

To be fair, I agree that Ned is not a typical Stark, either, since what we know of the "wolf blood" Starks (Arya, Brandon and Lyanna) and of the historical Starks suggests a rather wild bunch. However, he does have the Stark look, which Sansa lacks.

As for your complaint that fans don't consider Sansa a true Stark daughter, let's hear from the man himself on the issue:

Sansa getting the living symbol of her Stark identity killed symbolizes the loss of her Starkness. She'll always be a Stark in the sense that she's a trueborn daughter of Ned Stark, and I believe in the books that her stint as Alayne Stone is temporary, but I guess what you could call her spiritual Stark essence is gone for good.

 

I am reasonably certain she is going to die without issue, just as Robb did and Bran and (I assume) Rickon will. The show has set this up with her traumatic marriages. Outline Sansa died without living issue as well (since her one child is murdered). 

 

"Marriage (...) has been a constant in her book and tv show arc" only to the extent that Sansa has been turned off marriage, probably for good. TV Sansa still feels the physical pain in her body from her marriage (and the show may or may not have implied that Ramsay cut her in ways that would make sex painful for her), and Book Sansa is souring on marriage.

TV Sansa's trauma ties in neatly to GRRM ensuring that the Red Starks don't continue the Stark line. Sansa can hardly continue the Stark line if she isn't going to have sex ever again. We know that D&D decided very early on in the show to marry Sansa off to Ramsay (around Season 2). D&D have probably known for a long time that it was never Sansa's endgame to be married with kids, either in the books or the show, which is why they felt comfortable swapping her in for Jeyne Poole and marrying her off to a psychopath to be raped, tortured, and turned off marriage for good.

As for "motherhood being a constant theme," Book Sansa wanting kids doesn't mean that she'll have any. Book Sansa's hopes of having kids are really only tied into whatever fantasy she's entertaining at any particular time (Joffrey and being queen, pleasant river barge trips at Highgarden). The reality of motherhood she finds far less appetizing, as her callous attitude towards Sweetrobin in the books reveals. 

 

And of course Littlefinger has never been mistaken in the show about anything. :)

1) It's never said that outline Sansa was murdered.

2) We don't know if her child was actually killed:

3) The Targaryen line may not continue and if it does there's a chance that the kid may look like a Stark. You're jumping to too many assumptions.

4) Sansa's likely going to have a kid with Harry the Heir. Someone's gotta inherit with Robert Arryn out of the way and Harry's got slim chances to survive the series.

5) The show's kinda pointing and saying that Arya won't become a lady and can't be tamed.

6) If Arya hooks up with Gendry like so many believes then the Stark look ends with her anyways. The seed is strong.

7) GRRM's not going to extinguish Ned and Catelyn's line so Jon can inherit. Jon's own ancestors won't even accept him as a Stark.

8) Sad to say but it seems Tyrion will continue Tywin's line. Unless his dick is gonna turn to stone.

9) Sansa can marry a Karstark if the Stark look has to continue. Perhaps Harrion if he survives.

10)  I don't think GRRM wants to punish Cat for not being affectionate enough to Jon Snow.

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Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, Newstar said:

In a word, no, since there's no indication that TV Sansa 1) stopped admiring Cersei, 2) stopped wishing that she could rule the North instead of Jon or 3) rejected LF's way of doing things. Sansa was happy to keep LF around as long as he was useful to her (until he forced her hand by pitting her against Arya) and felt conflicted over ordering his execution.

 

Quote

TV Sansa still continues to dress in outfits inspired by her various non-Stark teachers (feathers and needle necklace from the mockingbird dress, X patterns from the Bolton sigil, etc.) and wear her hair like Cersei did in earlier seasons. Compare this to Arya, who wears her hair like Ned and dresses like him. So no, I don't think it's at all established that Sansa has rediscovered her "Starkness." Sansa's essential Starkness is gone for good along with her direwolf, and her costuming in the show reflects that.

 

Good point. Arya (dressed and styled like a mini-Ned) carries out the sentence, not Sansa. Very interesting.

This will be a fascinating question to watch in Season 8. I think you make great points. Although I do think there are potential counter-arguments but certainly the question is not resolved yet. The true test will come when Sansa finds out who Jon really is. 

a.) Sansa does change overcoat in 707 that appears much less fancy and more humble. And her hair is pulled back in a different style as well compared to what she wore throughout the season. 

b.) Sansa is given the chance twice to go for the Northern Crown. Once in 705 when Glover and Royce offer it to her. The second time when LF insinuates that Jon can be unnamed KITN. Both times she passes. 

c.) She effecitvely has a similar choice as Cersei does. Give up ambition and unite with family. Cersei makes one choice and Sansa makes another.

d.) you could say the very act of killing LF represents the choice to not do things his way. 

 

Edited by jcmontea

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

1) It's never said that outline Sansa was murdered.

It's heavily implied. Outline Tyrion in exile makes common cause with the "surviving Starks" to bring down Outline Jaime, which means that Outline Sansa didn't survive, since there no mention of her escaping along with him. (Outline Sansa is also left off the list of the five safe characters, which includes three Starks but excludes her.)

 

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2) We don't know if her child was actually killed

He is: Outline Jaime kills everyone ahead of him in the line of succession to gain the throne, and Outline Joffrey's infant son would be first on that list.

 

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3) The Targaryen line may not continue and if it does there's a chance that the kid may look like a Stark. 

The TV show strongly implies that Jon will father a child or children with Dany, not a non-Targ.

 

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4) Sansa's likely going to have a kid with Harry the Heir.

There's no Harry the Heir in the show, and Harry the Heir is likely doomed in the books as you point out.

 

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5) The show's kinda pointing and saying that Arya won't become a lady and can't be tamed.

Sure, but she's a Dark Stark guaranteed survival by GRRM, meaning she's more likely to continue the line than Tully-looking, quite possibly doomed Sansa.

 

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6) If Arya hooks up with Gendry like so many believes then the Stark look ends with her anyways. The seed is strong.

Agreed, but Arya could hook up with pretty much anyone else and have Stark-looking kids. (Also, GRRM has already allegedly said that Arya and Gendry have separate futures.)

 

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7) GRRM's not going to extinguish Ned and Catelyn's line so Jon can inherit. Jon's own ancestors won't even accept him as a Stark.

Eh. He bears the Stark look and it's been (loudly) telegraphed in the show that he'll father at least one child, so who knows?

 

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8) Sad to say but it seems Tyrion will continue Tywin's line.

He can only continue Tywin's line if he remarries and has legitimate issue. Even assuming he wants to marry after what happened with Sansa, who would have him (remembering that Book Tyrion is hideous and noseless)? Sansa? Tysha (who's apparently just a prostitute in the show universe)? I don't think so.

I can also see GRRM extinguishing Tywin's line as karmic payback for all his bullshit about the Lannister legacy. Tyrion doesn't have to die for that to happen, but he does have to fail to sire any legitimate children. Fortunately, that shouldn't be a problem.

 

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9) Sansa can marry a Karstark if the Stark look has to continue. Perhaps Harrion if he survives.

It's the Stark look, LOL, not the Karstark look, and it's very distinctive. Craster in the books says that Jon has the "look of a Stark" (even before knowing who he is), not "the look of a Stark or maybe a Karstark, who knows really, they all pretty much blend together."

With all the emphasis on the Starks and the Stark look, I find the idea that Sansa will happen to marry some non-Stark Stark-resembling dude and have his babies hilarious. Talk about missing the point.

 

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10)  I don't think GRRM wants to punish Cat for not being affectionate enough to Jon Snow.

Agree to disagree.

 

1 hour ago, jcmontea said:

This will be a fascinating question to watch in Season 8. I think you make great points. Although I do think there are potential counter-arguments but certainly the question is not resolved yet. The true test will come when Sansa finds out who Jon really is. 

Yes, I'm very curious about what happens with Sansa in S8. We'll see whether or not Sophie shows up for the Spain filming later in April, which is supposed to involve scenes from 8x05 and 8x06.

Edited by Newstar

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"I'm going to conveniently ignore all the other differences betweem the outline and the ACTUAL books plot to make my point about Sansa dying"

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, SecretWeapon said:

"I'm going to conveniently ignore all the other differences betweem the outline and the ACTUAL books plot to make my point about Sansa dying"

1993 Outline Sansa dying + 1993 Outline GRRM planning an ending and Stark succession without Sansa + GRRM sticking to the same ending since 1991 (as he has said before the outline leaked in 2014) = ASOIAF Sansa ending up dead or irrelevant to Stark succession

I realize that's a bitter pill to swallow, but better make your peace with it now.

Edited by Newstar

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9 hours ago, Newstar said:

Jon doesn't offend GRRM's apparent Dark Targs Don't Continue the Line rule, since he'll have a kid (or kids) with Targ-looking Dany. If Jon married a non-Targ and had Stark-looking Targ babies, that would be groundbreaking, but there's no indication that's what will happen.

 

Although Sansa and Ned aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer, I think Sansa otherwise really isn't like Ned at all, being self-interested (unlike unselfish Ned), status-obsessed (Ned balks at being named Hand, while Sansa drools over the prospect of being queen) and superficial (Sansa is entranced by Margaery's beauty and ladylike qualities and realizes too late that the Tyrells were using her, Ned observes that Robert failed to see the iron underneath Lyanna's beauty). Ned is chiefly noted for being humble, loyal and honourable (to a fault), and Sansa isn't any of those things. That's more a matter for another thread, though.

I think Arya is Lyanna 2.0. The "Catelyn" traits you describe--concern with revenge, romantic notions, impulsiveness--actually apply to Lyanna. Again, though, that's more for another thread.

To be fair, I agree that Ned is not a typical Stark, either, since what we know of the "wolf blood" Starks (Arya, Brandon and Lyanna) and of the historical Starks suggests a rather wild bunch. However, he does have the Stark look, which Sansa lacks.

As for your complaint that fans don't consider Sansa a true Stark daughter, let's hear from the man himself on the issue:

Sansa getting the living symbol of her Stark identity killed symbolizes the loss of her Starkness. She'll always be a Stark in the sense that she's a trueborn daughter of Ned Stark, and I believe in the books that her stint as Alayne Stone is temporary, but I guess what you could call her spiritual Stark essence is gone for good.

 

I am reasonably certain she is going to die without issue, just as Robb did and Bran and (I assume) Rickon will. The show has set this up with her traumatic marriages. Outline Sansa died without living issue as well (since her one child is murdered). 

 

"Marriage (...) has been a constant in her book and tv show arc" only to the extent that Sansa has been turned off marriage, probably for good. TV Sansa still feels the physical pain in her body from her marriage (and the show may or may not have implied that Ramsay cut her in ways that would make sex painful for her), and Book Sansa is souring on marriage.

TV Sansa's trauma ties in neatly to GRRM ensuring that the Red Starks don't continue the Stark line. Sansa can hardly continue the Stark line if she isn't going to have sex ever again. We know that D&D decided very early on in the show to marry Sansa off to Ramsay (around Season 2). D&D have probably known for a long time that it was never Sansa's endgame to be married with kids, either in the books or the show, which is why they felt comfortable swapping her in for Jeyne Poole and marrying her off to a psychopath to be raped, tortured, and turned off marriage for good.

As for "motherhood being a constant theme," Book Sansa wanting kids doesn't mean that she'll have any. Book Sansa's hopes of having kids are really only tied into whatever fantasy she's entertaining at any particular time (Joffrey and being queen, pleasant river barge trips at Highgarden). The reality of motherhood she finds far less appetizing, as her callous attitude towards Sweetrobin in the books reveals. 

 

And of course Littlefinger has never been mistaken in the show about anything. :)

This whole conversation about "looks" is much to do about nothing. 

 

Quote

Jon doesn't offend GRRM's apparent Dark Targs Don't Continue the Line rule, since he'll have a kid (or kids) with Targ-looking Dany. If Jon married a non-Targ and had Stark-looking Targ babies, that would be groundbreaking, but there's no indication that's what will happen.

Assuming Targs (white hair) is a recessive trait (like blonds) and Starks (dark hair) is a dominant trait, Jon and Dany would have 50% offspring with blond hair and 50% with dark hair. this is possible because while displaying the Stark look, Jon, still carries the recessive gene. 

Likewise, Ned must have been a carrier of some non-stark bloodlines as well, as Sansa had red hair, and this two is a recessive genetic trait. Long story short, unless your the product of a serious inbred line, your "look" is really a crap shoot. 

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4 minutes ago, Error-504 said:

This whole conversation about "looks" is much to do about nothing. 

 

Assuming Targs (white hair) is a recessive trait (like blonds) and Starks (dark hair) is a dominant trait, Jon and Dany would have 50% offspring with blond hair and 50% with dark hair. this is possible because while displaying the Stark look, Jon, still carries the recessive gene. 

Likewise, Ned must have been a carrier of some non-stark bloodlines as well, as Sansa had red hair, and this two is a recessive genetic trait. Long story short, unless your the product of a serious inbred line, your "look" is really a crap shoot. 

Your look is what the author decides it is and he picks the look for story telling reasons and symbolism. Not to be faithful to real world genetics.

why does Jon look like a Stark?  The reason is not because of his genes. Its because you couldn’t tell the same story if he looked like a Targ. 

Having said that I am not sure how predictive looking at this stuff is ultimatley. 

Will Jon and Dany have Stark looking kid or a Targ looking kid? I think ultimatley how the kid looks will speak more to the symbolism behind uniting those houses and what that means on a thematic level than anything else. And who really knows what that is yet. 

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26 minutes ago, Error-504 said:

This whole conversation about "looks" is much to do about nothing. 

 

Assuming Targs (white hair) is a recessive trait (like blonds) and Starks (dark hair) is a dominant trait, Jon and Dany would have 50% offspring with blond hair and 50% with dark hair. this is possible because while displaying the Stark look, Jon, still carries the recessive gene. 

Likewise, Ned must have been a carrier of some non-stark bloodlines as well, as Sansa had red hair, and this two is a recessive genetic trait. Long story short, unless your the product of a serious inbred line, your "look" is really a crap shoot. 

Westeros genetics aren’t real world genetics. Baratheon blue eyes/black hair are such dominant traits that they “trump” the other parent’s genes every time, even though real world genetics dictate that blue eyes are a recessive trait. Other great houses have distinctive house facial features (hair/eye colour) that have remained over hundreds of years that wouldn’t persist in the real world without Targ-level inbreeding. And of course Jon, Dany and other Targs are incredibly beautiful and vigorous despite being the product of hundreds of years of severe inbreeding that in the real world would have yielded extreme infirmity and deformity. (The Stark family tree also suggests a fair amount of inbreeding which doesn’t seem to have resulted in sickly children.)

Similarly, if Targ genes are super recessive requiring constant inbreeding to keep the bloodline pure, you’d expect all non-Targ/Targ offspring to have the look of the non-Targ parent, but that’s simply not the case historically. Aegon V and his Blackwood wife had multiple kids with Targ looks, Daeron and Mariah Martell had only one kid with Dornish looks, etc. 

I do think that in the show Jon and Dany’s baby, if shown, will have dark hair, since platinum-haired babies in the real world are in short supply. 

 

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10 hours ago, prettylongclaw said:

Have you all wondered that maybe George played with the looks of the characters for a reason? Jon Snow is a true born Targaryen, who will probably restaure House Targaryen in the Iron Throne, but he looks like a Stark; Sansa was the Stark child that took back the North and put House Stark back at Winterfell, yet she looks like a Tully. 

Jon got his looks from his mother, but his sad and brooding personlaity comes form his father; Sansa got her looks from her mother, but she is the Stark child that most acts like Ned. 

I see a lot of people  in forums saying that Sansa is not a real Stark and more like a Tully just because she looks like her mother and I just want to point out that yes, she looks like a Tully, but inside Sansa is very similar to Ned Stark; the same can be said about Arya, who looks like Ned Stark but her personality is very similar to Catelyn. George did that on purpose.

Arya seeks revenge like her mother; after her father was killed all she ever thought was to kill those who wronged House Stark, she is jealous like Catelyn used to be of Ned (she was furious when Edric Dayne said the Ned Stark loved another woman) and can be very hot headed. Let me be clear, I am not bashing Arya, those are very regular characteristics and I actually like those aspects of Arya.

Sansa in the other hand is naive, sweet and trustful just like papa Ned. Sansa refused to see how terrible Joffrey really was, because she was in love with him, just like Ned who refused to see that his best friend Robert Baratheon was no longer the man he met years ago, Robert was now a drunk, fat irresponsible King, but Ned didn’t want to see it.

Sansa runs to Cersei to tell her the Ned’s plans to leave KL, believing that Cersei could never hurt her; the same damn thing was done by Ned, who runs to Cersei to let her know that he knew it about the incest and her affair with Jaime, believing that Cersei would just runaway and never hurt him or his family. They both payed it a huge price for their mistakes.

In the books, Sansa who very was abused and mistreated by Joffrey, actually feels sad for his death, because she is such gentle and kind person, just like Ned. All Ned wanted after the Rebelion was go back to Winterfell, rebuild his family and live a peaceful life, that’s pretty much all Sansa wants in the books too, she never has plans about avenging her family or plots to murder those who treat her badly. She wants love, family and peace. She dreams about having children and playing in the garden with puppies. 

I am always amazed at how people think Arya is the only true Stark daughter, when Sansa has so much of  papa Ned, but then again, Ned was never like his brother Barndon or even his sister Lyanna, he didnt have much of the Wolf Blood in him.

 

I agree with all you said.  And there are some similarities that you mentioned that I haven't thought of before. 

20 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

Will Jon and Dany have Stark looking kid or a Targ looking kid? I think ultimatley how the kid looks will speak more to the symbolism behind uniting those houses and what that means on a thematic level than anything else. And who really knows what that is yet. 

Agree.

34 minutes ago, Error-504 said:

This whole conversation about "looks" is much to do about nothing.

Agree.  In the books it seems that the only two people who were obsessed about the "Stark look" was Catelyn and Arya.  Catelyn wanted at least one son who looked like Ned.  Arya thought that she was ugly because she had the Stark look.  I know that Jon is recognized because he has the Stark look but he didn't really obsess about it (he thought a lot more about his bastard status than his looks).  it just made him recognizable. 

I am in the mind that Sansa's role is to help with the rebuilding efforts after the wars.  I think we saw that doing Blackwater.  And her role in season 7 seems to indicate that she will be the caretaker in the North.  I think that is one reason why I don't think she will die.  They would need people to help rebuild Westeros once all the wars are over.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Newstar said:

Westeros genetics aren’t real world genetics. Baratheon blue eyes/black hair are such dominant traits that they “trump” the other parent’s genes every time, even though real world genetics dictate that blue eyes are a recessive trait. Other great houses have distinctive house facial features (hair/eye colour) that have remained over hundreds of years that wouldn’t persist in the real world without Targ-level inbreeding. And of course Jon, Dany and other Targs are incredibly beautiful and vigorous despite being the product of hundreds of years of severe inbreeding that in the real world would have yielded extreme infirmity and deformity. (The Stark family tree also suggests a fair amount of inbreeding which doesn’t seem to have resulted in sickly children.)

Similarly, if Targ genes are super recessive requiring constant inbreeding to keep the bloodline pure, you’d expect all non-Targ/Targ offspring to have the look of the non-Targ parent, but that’s simply not the case historically. Aegon V and his Blackwood wife had multiple kids with Targ looks, Daeron and Mariah Martell had only one kid with Dornish looks, etc. 

I do think that in the show Jon and Dany’s baby, if shown, will have dark hair, since platinum-haired babies in the real world are in short supply. 

 

What is super recessive? Are you inventing terms to make your point? At least we have determined that People in Westeros aren't really human.

Your take on inbreedings is only partially correct by the way. Again, much to do about nothing. 

Edited by Error-504

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Newstar said:

1993 Outline Sansa dying + 1993 Outline GRRM planning an ending and Stark succession without Sansa + GRRM sticking to the same ending since 1991 (as he has said before the outline leaked in 2014) = ASOIAF Sansa ending up dead or irrelevant to Stark succession

I realize that's a bitter pill to swallow, but better make your peace with it now.

I realized, a long time ago, that I am reading and watching a differrent show than lots of people. Because in my books, Sansa has been groomed to be a queen since book 1. Like, I no even have a doubt in my mind.

Her entire arc in the books is about learning the political game and experiencing life in Westeros. She grew up in the North, went to Kings Landing, later spends time in the Vale. Thats 3 very important regions of the Kingdom that she has experience and she still has personal connections with Riverland. Sansa also lived as a High born Lady, a hostage of war and as a bastard girl, she has experienced very different situations of life in Westeros.

In Kings Landing she was able to watch closely people like Tywin, Cersei, Jofreey, Varys and she was able to see how to act and most important, how not to act as a ruler. Her chapters in the Vale are also very good and Littlefinger is teaching her to be political savy, and use diplomacy to solve conflicts and problems, you know, one would think that diplomacy is actually a quality expected in a ruler. 

Whe she was in Kings Landing she was almost raped and killed by a handful of rioters who were mad at the King, she reflects  that the people who tried to rape and kill her  were desperate for food and help and that if she could in the future, she would help them. Later, she has another very important scene with Cersei where Cersei teaches Sansa that she should rule by fear, because thats the only way they will be loyal to you. Sansa, once again reflects about this and doesnt agree with Cersei at all. 
 

Quote

 

The only way to keep your people loyal is to make certain they fear you more than they do the enemy." "I will remember, Your Grace," said Sansa, though she had always heard that love was a surer route to the people's loyalty than fear.If I am ever a queen, I'll make them love me.

 

 

 

In season 7 they made sure to show her rulling the North, preparing the country for winter. She cares about food, warm armours for the soldiers, provisions for the cold.  She listens to what the High Lords have to say, respect their opinions but assures them that in the end they must be loyal to their King Jon Snow and follow his command. She is clever, polite, charming, diplomatic and respectful. She was so good that the Lords of the North wanted to make her Queen. She is doing in season 7 what she planned on book 1!!!

We had two Queens fighting for the Iron Throne in season 7, both using their armies and dragons to intimitate the Lords and the people of the country, both using fear as their main tool. Daenerys literally says to those poor soldiers, "Join me or die", I mean, who wouldn't it?

Then in the North, we have Sansa turning down a chance to be Queen for the good of her family and the North and deciding to be loyal to Jon, the Lords are actually trying to bend the knee for her, withouth threats, withouth armies or dragons. They want to make her queen because they love her.


"I am ever a queen, I'll make them love me."

How can the show be any more obvious?????? I dont know how can people say that Sansa will die in season 8, like, as I said, we are watching a different show, it must be. 

Edited by prettylongclaw

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