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Season 8: News, Spoilers And Leaks

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4 minutes ago, lalt said:

I am far for thinking that D&D did a good job. That from before season 7 ever haired.

That said, if you really believe that Dany’s path toward the “mad Queen attitude” started only with the last episode or that this evolution is out of character.. I think you’re truly mistaken.

 

I wouldn t say mad. I think cruel or vindictive is more appropriate. 

But the big problem is how fast everything is happening... Things just don t fit.. 

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, lalt said:

I am far for thinking that D&D did a good job. That from before season 7 ever haired.

That said, if you really believe that Dany’s path toward the “mad Queen attitude” started only with the last episode or that this evolution is out of character.. I think you’re truly mistaken.

 

I'm not at all saying that they did a good job (really, really far from it, trust me !).

I also don't think that her becoming mad is out of character (that's why I was really enclined to believe the leaks). I definitely think that she has that side in her. But my hope would be that she overcomes that side of her.

What didn't make sense to me is how the ending would turn : Jon killing Dany is tragic to me, not bittersweet.

(but again, who knows, with them?)

edit : as divica says, cruel or vindictive would be more appropriate.

Edited by Maelia

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, lalt said:

That said, if you really believe that Dany’s path toward the “mad Queen attitude” started only with the last episode or that this evolution is out of character.. I think you’re truly mistaken.

This is highly debatable. Anyway, now we know that with these writers the forshadowing signs or their absence no longer mean much…

Edited by Nowy Tends
spelling

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6 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

 Remember that Dany's final treason is the one for love; perhaps somehow Jon slays her because of how much he loves her.

I know Dany thinks of the betrayals as how some people betray her, but I actually think it means she does the betrayals. The whole HotU vision is about what she will do, except for the treasons? Euhm, don't think so.

Anyway, for the show this is irrelevant, as they never included the HotU visions properly. The show-visions were pretty clear: she doesn't get the throne, Snow does, and she will reunite with Drogo and Rhaego - who are dead.

 

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, divica said:

I wouldn t say mad. I think cruel or vindictive is more appropriate. 

But the big problem is how fast everything is happening... Things just don t fit.. 

I don’t like that word too... but let’s use it just to understand each other.

And I do think too there’s quite a lot wrong with the writing.

But not that this trajectory has been flashed out in the last episode, all of a sudden.

Daerenys has surely lost the people she cared most, and 2 of her Dragons. That she considers her own children. This break people. 

Arya never dreamt of becoming an assassin. Then the red wedding happened (and other things before).

But beside that there’s an undeniable sense of entitlement in Daenerys.

The idea that she was born, that she is destined to rule the 7 Kingdoms. That from season 1. From “he was not dragon”.

The faith in this idea is -according to her- what made of her the woman that she is.

That’s what she said to Jon when they first meet. Coincidence or set up?

And... she never asked the slaves or the Unsullied to bend the knee before helping them.

But she did that with the people of the 7 kingdoms and with Jon. Why?

Because that is her right. The problem is that. That she sees not difference between a slaves master and someone that living in the 7 kingdoms refuse or is not ready to accept her as queen.

And sorry, but not making prisoners, offering not alternative (exile, prison) but to bend the knee or to die is not reasonable.

Because of that, her reaction to Jon’s reveal was everything but warm.

Their dialogue in the last episode was not romantic but manipulative.

That Jon doesn’t want the throne is not excuse. What can you expect from an honorable man that made a promise, that knows he has a debt with you, if not.. obedience?

She never tried to tell him... the choice is yours or let’s do this together.

She said they’ll steal what it is mine. Wrong because it’s not hers. By right is Jon/Aegon’s right.

And the look Jon gave her at the beginning of the episode... is telling.

That is set up as well.

He looks at the dead face of Lyanna Mormont - the first person  that called him King - then to Daenerys. Why?

He told the truth to his sisters because he’s starting to have doubts as well.

I mean, that is the set up...

There are hundreds of reasons as to why it could have been done far better.

But it’s not all of a sudden and it’s not out of character.

Edited by lalt

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21 minutes ago, Maelia said:

What didn't make sense to me is how the ending would turn : Jon killing Dany is tragic to me, not bittersweet.

Agree.

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Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, Maelia said:

I'm not at all saying that they did a good job (really, really far from it, trust me !).

I also don't think that her becoming mad is out of character (that's why I was really enclined to believe the leaks). I definitely think that she has that side in her. But my hope would be that she overcomes that side of her.

What didn't make sense to me is how the ending would turn : Jon killing Dany is tragic to me, not bittersweet.

(but again, who knows, with them?)

edit : as divica says, cruel or vindictive would be more appropriate.

Agreed. The set-up to this "twist" was badly done, especially in s6-s7. Dany was conveyer of no emotion for too long. They underplayed how she felt and what was going on in her mind for too long, to subvert expectations. And we only got the first sign that Dany could potentially be set-up as an antagonist at start of s8 when she made a vague threat to Sansa. Meanwhile Sansa's characterisation has been so shifty every season, that they made Sansa too antipathic to most casual viewers. Heck, they made a whole season from Arya's POV that Sansa might be scheming to betray her own family last season, and botched the resolution with a "Surprise! Sansa has LF executed!" plot.

In the books, George already started to place seeds for Dany's potential shift to being a danger for Westeros with her last vision in her last chapter of aDwD, which has a "huh?" moment in the portrayal of Jorah and Viserys in it, and has Young Griff in the plot she is like to meet and readers expect her to be quite antagonistic and destruvtive towards him. Fake or not, you can't blame him for believing he's the real deal, just as you can't blame Jon for believing he's Ned's son.

And in the show I agree it is tragic, not bittersweet. In the books at least we may have Val, nor is it certain to me that Jon will have a romantic relation with Dany. He won't have to go South, as Stannis sent an order to his steward to mine as much dragonglass as fast as possible at Dragonstone, abandon Dragonstone and take the last ships to Eastwatch. The reports of Loras being burned to Cersei and the off-page battle for Dragonstone was relayed by a man who next sailed all of the fleet off to the Stepping Stones, and the Redwynes sailed with Cersei's Lannister troops to Arbor island and Oldtown to fight Euron. For all we truly know, Loras found Dragonstone abandoned.

Edited by sweetsunray

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15 minutes ago, lalt said:

Their dialogue in the last episode was not romantic but manipulative.

That Jon doesn’t want the throne is not excuse. What can you expect from an honorable man that made a promise, that knows he has a debt with you, if not.. obedience?

Agreed. She went to his room and first thing she asks is whether he's drunk, she then acts the lover. If he sleeps with her then, a little drunk, he will be a lover again who out of romantic feelings forgets all about his identity. It's not "she who wants to forget it". She wants Jon to forget it too, and tries to use his potential romantic feelings as a type of bind that would him feel shitty if he thinks of coming out with his secret one day.

The moment he remembers who he is about to sleep with, she changes tactics, begging him to remain silent to his family, for her.

He reiterates how she is his queen, because he doesn't want the crown, and that's when she changes tactics once again, and orders him as his queen to a subject to keep his identity secret and bind Bran and Sam to secrecy too.

When it is clear that he feels he has the right to tell his family who he is, she emotionally punishes him by becoming harsh and threatening, before leaving.

That was a classic script of emotional manipulation.

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51 minutes ago, Maelia said:

What didn't make sense to me is how the ending would turn : Jon killing Dany is tragic to me, not bittersweet.

Straw Man? Who's claiming that act in isolation is "bittersweet"? 'Bittersweet' refers to the end of the whole story with all events taken together.

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2 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

Straw Man? Who's claiming that act in isolation is "bittersweet"? 'Bittersweet' refers to the end of the whole story with all events taken together.

But besides sam and gilly who has a happy ending? nobody! 

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1 minute ago, divica said:

But besides sam and gilly who has a happy ending? nobody! 

Yeah, I kind of agree with that. At a stretch, Sansa gets to rule the North in peace with Brienne at her side keeping her oath to Cat protecting her daughter plus youngest son (plus at a long stretch, Arya who could, you never know, return to Winterfell with Nymeria).

Tormund gets to run around with the Freefolk. Bronn gets his castle and pick of hot wife. The Vale is intact. Dorne is fine. Yara will peacefully rule the Iron Isles and Gendry the Stormlands with Davos as his Hand who might be okay. Bran has his tree wisdom. But I think the intention of the writers, if certain leaks are to be believed, is that Jon and Dany get to be together, of a sort.

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5 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

Yeah, I kind of agree with that. At a stretch, Sansa gets to rule the North in peace with Brienne at her side keeping her oath to Cat protecting her daughter plus youngest son (plus at a long stretch, Arya who could, you never know, return to Winterfell with Nymeria).

Tormund gets to run around with the Freefolk. Bronn gets his castle and pick of hot wife. The Vale is intact. Dorne is fine. Yara will peacefully rule the Iron Isles and Gendry the Stormlands with Davos as his Hand who might be okay. Bran has his tree wisdom. But I think the intention of the writers, if certain leaks are to be believed, is that Jon and Dany get to be together, of a sort.

Brienne was abandoned by jamie… Sansa is a cold traitor that gets zero happiness (what would make sansa happy?), arya broke gendry's heart and is another character without emotions, tormund has an ok ending but he is a super secondary character that we probably won t see again, bran is an emotionless thing, yara lost all her familly and who cares about bron?

Everyone has an ending so sad… Like most of the characters journey is awful… 

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Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Agreed. She went to his room and first thing she asks is whether he's drunk, she then acts the lover. If he sleeps with her then, a little drunk, he will be a lover again who out of romantic feelings forgets all about his identity. It's not "she who wants to forget it". She wants Jon to forget it too, and tries to use his potential romantic feelings as a type of bind that would him feel shitty if he thinks of coming out with his secret one day.

The moment he remembers who he is about to sleep with, she changes tactics, begging him to remain silent to his family, for her.

He reiterates how she is his queen, because he doesn't want the crown, and that's when she changes tactics once again, and orders him as his queen to a subject to keep his identity secret and bind Bran and Sam to secrecy too.

When it is clear that he feels he has the right to tell his family who he is, she emotionally punishes him by becoming harsh and threatening, before leaving.

That was a classic script of emotional manipulation.

Exactly, but this is how she treated him when he first arrived at Dragonstone, as a threat. From the moment she pressured him to kneel by threatening him I knew Jon/Dany would be a toxic relationship. He could never love someone like that, and from his side it was all business. She is pretty on the outside and ugly on the inside. Enemies to lovers may work in fanfic but it never works in real life. 

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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Probably not a popular opinion and I'll probably catch flack for it, but this is how I feel:

Some people don't want a happy ending for Jon and Dany, bc that's too fairy tale. No happy endings allowed! But at this point, the other endings are just as cliche. But hey, all the cool kids want to see misery for all the characters that are supposed heroes, so let's cater to that group instead. It's like that one punk who hates the hometown team just bc everyone else loves them. It's like the goth kids who hate the popular kids just bc. But of course those popular kids have to turn out to be snobs, bullies, bitches and punks who ultimately always deserve what they get in the end. No less cliche than the Disney stuff.  I don't expect rainbows and sunshine. That's not the story. But destroying Jon and Dany just bc most people don't want it to happen is no better, imo. Bittersweet for sure. Bitter for those who want either Jon or Dany to have a good ending; and sweet for those who don't.

I expect plenty of misery from the books. We've already had plenty and that's not going to stop. But, I do expect some sweet in the books too. At this point, it seems the show is only going to give the bitter, unless you are one of those cool kids who want Jon and Dany destroyed bc hey, popular kids suck and we all want to see them brought low, right?

And yes, I'm such a chick. I do want the people with good intentions to win in the end. I want the schemers and troublemakers to get the end they've earned. But that's not real life, you say! Nice guys don't always finish last. Sometimes justice does prevail. Sometimes shitty people get what they deserve. That's real life too.

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1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Agreed. She went to his room and first thing she asks is whether he's drunk, she then acts the lover. If he sleeps with her then, a little drunk, he will be a lover again who out of romantic feelings forgets all about his identity. It's not "she who wants to forget it". She wants Jon to forget it too, and tries to use his potential romantic feelings as a type of bind that would him feel shitty if he thinks of coming out with his secret one day.

The moment he remembers who he is about to sleep with, she changes tactics, begging him to remain silent to his family, for her.

He reiterates how she is his queen, because he doesn't want the crown, and that's when she changes tactics once again, and orders him as his queen to a subject to keep his identity secret and bind Bran and Sam to secrecy too.

When it is clear that he feels he has the right to tell his family who he is, she emotionally punishes him by becoming harsh and threatening, before leaving.

That was a classic script of emotional manipulation.

You're exactly and completely right here. Her telling him that he couldn't tell even his closest family should have sent up a red flag, clear as day.

It takes a genuine awareness about how relationships really work to be able to recognize Dany's disturbing underlying pattern of abusive emotional manipulation for what it really is. Sometimes there isn't enough experience with the world to see it happening, and it's too easy for an attractive physique and the hormones of sex to mask an unattractive personality. It's no surprise that Jon "You Know Nothing" Snow is slow to realize what she's been doing to him. Given that she was reared by Viserys, this kind of tyrannical emotional manipulation is probably instinctive to her by now, baked in and unlikely to change.

27 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Exactly, but this is how she treated him when he first arrived at Dragonstone, as a threat. From the moment she pressured him to kneel by threatening him I knew Jon/Dany would be a toxic relationship. He could never love someone like that, and from his side it was all business. She is pretty on the outside and ugly on the inside. Enemies to lovers may work in fanfic but it never works in real life. 

No, it never does. What does work in real life, however, is lovers into enemies.

Martin's tale has always been about the workings of the human heart and the ties that bind us one to another, how these ties can be strengthened or broken, how they can be used for or against us.

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1 hour ago, divica said:

But besides sam and gilly who has a happy ending? nobody! 

Tyrion. He’s getting everything he ever wanted. Cersei dead, and himself in a position of great power. He’ll lose Jaime, but I’d still consider it a happy ending for a character in this story. 

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Posted (edited)

Someone on reddit posted a pic from episode 4 of Cersei looking out over the Red Keep and had circled barrels on the towers and keep walls/battlements.  Then she turns around and we see captured Missandei. Their theory is that these barrels are wildfire.  I went back and viewed the episode to verify the pic was accurate.  It is.  I am now inclined to believe that Cersei is framing Dany to take the fall for the utter devastation because Dany strikes will be targeted but if it hits one of those barrels then the wildfire will spread rapidly.

Edited by TheFirstofHerName

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52 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Exactly, but this is how she treated him when he first arrived at Dragonstone, as a threat. From the moment she pressured him to kneel by threatening him I knew Jon/Dany would be a toxic relationship. He could never love someone like that, and from his side it was all business. She is pretty on the outside and ugly on the inside. Enemies to lovers may work in fanfic but it never works in real life. 

But he DOES love her.  That's why the whole thing is so fucked. It's not a toxic relationship, it's just awful writing.

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Re, the burning of Kings Landing, I don't see any reason why Daenerys would do it, however vengeful .  After all, it's going to be her capital city.

Killing Cersei, Qyburn, Euron, yes.  Executing large numbers of their followers, very likely.  Killing civilians who are trapped in the Red Keep, without a doubt.  None of those go beyond the bounds of logic, but then, none of those would go beyond the rules of war, either. 

If the city does get burned down, I expect it would be either because Cersei deliberately sets off barrels of wildfire when she knows she's losing, or the wildfire simply gets ignited during the fighting, perhaps by Drogon.

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7 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

You're exactly and completely right here. Her telling him that he couldn't tell even his closest family should have sent up a red flag, clear as day.

It takes a genuine awareness about how relationships really work to be able to recognize Dany's disturbing underlying pattern of abusive emotional manipulation for what it really is. Sometimes there isn't enough experience with the world to see it happening, and it's too easy for an attractive physique and the hormones of sex to mask an unattractive personality. It's no surprise that Jon "You Know Nothing" Snow is slow to realize what she's been doing to him. Given that she was reared by Viserys, this kind of tyrannical emotional manipulation is probably instinctive to her by now, baked in and unlikely to change.

No, it never does. What does work in real life, however, is lovers into enemies.

Martin's tale has always been about the workings of the human heart and the ties that bind us one to another, how these ties can be strengthened or broken, how they can be used for or against us.

Yes. Love to me is threading with "care" and always remembering that a loved one owes you nada, beyond what they voluntarily can give you. And if you see your wishes and needs will hurt them, you back off. Everything else may be called "love" but is either gratification of your own needs, longing and desires. Needing, longing and desiring may be vehicles to love, but they're not love without your ability to sacrifice them for that same person's well being.

2 minutes ago, TheFirstofHerName said:

Someone on reddit posted a pic from episode 4 of Cersei looking out over the Red Keep and had circled tbarrels on the towers and keep walls/battlements.  Then she turns around and we see captured Missandei. Their theory is that these barrels are wildfire.  I went back and viewed the episode to verify the pic was accurate.  It is.  I am now inclined to believe that Cersei is framing Dany to take the fall for the utter devastation because Dany strikes will be targeted but if it hits one of those barrels then the wildfire will spread rapidly.

Yes, the whole "abduct Missandei and chop her head off" smells of a trap from miles away.  think Tyrion knows it too, and after the treason convo with Varys, he's so sad, because he doesn't see any other way out of the shattered dream he had for Dany than to jump ship and prove himself loyal to Cersei's child again. His speech wasn't meant so much for Cersei as for the smallfolk in the city to overhear.

That said, it doesn't take away Dany's responsibility of her own actions if people did surrender to her. If she does that, it doesn't matter what shitty stuff Cersei did. Then we the viewer and Jon cannot but consider her non-deserving of a throne.

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