Season 8: News, Spoilers And Leaks

[Suzanna Stormborn]

2 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Varys decided to betray Dany when she basically said she would kill innocents. That was his turning point to shift to Jon.

what did she say exactly?

 

[sweetsunray]

14 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

 

Varys swore loyalty to her, she gave him a big long speech/warning about 'dont freaking betray me or ill feed you to the dragon'. not that long ago I might add. And she has not done anything mad or crazy yet. So his treason is totally premature and yeah he deserves execution for plotting to kill her just because he (for no reason at all) decided he likes Jon better after knowing him for 10 days. sometimes you have to pay for your choices.  Comparing Varys to Ned is absurd, Varys has betrayed every single person her has ever pledged loyalty to.

 

remember varys' speech to tyrion? telling him that Dany is the only thing we can believe in in this world and she is a reason to go on living? wtf happened to that?

Oh I remember. I knew then already that would be the way he goes. However, is it truly treason to betray someone who is committing treason herself?

It isn't absurd to compare it to Ned, because in a way it shows how much of a hypocrite Varys was to Ned, for wanting him to admit to treason, when at the time Varys knew very well that Ned wasn't committing treason whatsoever. He just didn't want Stannis on the throne. Having Joffrey on the throne for Dany to dethrone was far more convenient to Varys's plans.

So, even if I consider his ending quite deserving, I find he is not committing treason, even though he betrays Dany. Dany is not the Queen of the 7k yet, as she herself pointed out, and she is not the rightful Targaryen heir either, and she knows it. And now Varys knows it too. It is not treason to betray someone who commits treason hirself. It is however, still a betrayal. Likewise, Ned did not commit treason, but he did betray Robert by hiding the truth from him and using wriggling room by writing one word differently than Robert had dictated him on his will.

Betrayal is not necessarily treason.

 

[Nowy Tends]

1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

There is no reason beyond the plot demands it that Varys should even be worried about Dany's state of  mind, let alone plotting to kill her.  

Exactly. And, what has Jon achieved that could make Varys think he's "better" than Dany? Mining the dragonglass 

[SeanF]

16 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Well, Dany herself is basically being treasonous, for she knows the truth as well, and doesn't do anything except for "keep your mouth shut about it". Is betraying someone who commits treason actual treason?

 

Oaths matter.  Even in modern societies, they matter.  Once you give allegiance to a person, you should stick to that promise, until that person gives very good reason to break it (eg Aerys wanting to incinerate thousands of people).    

Varys should be trying to bring about a peaceful resolution to the problem.  That would mean pressing for a marriage between the two of them, rather than trying to stymie it.  And, if he thinks Jon is too weak to stand up to Daenerys, then that means he will be too weak to be king.  That calls Varys' good faith into question, as it implies that he wants a weak king on the Iron Throne.

If he can no longer stomach serving Daenerys, then he has to tell it to her straight, or, if he thinks that's too much of a risk, then send her a letter giving his reasons for renouncing allegiance.  

Allowing Daenerys to believe he's on her side, up to the moment that he drives a dagger into her, or slips poison into her food, would be despicable.

 

[Suzanna Stormborn]

2 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

Exactly. And, what has Jon achieved that could make Varys think he's "better" than Dany? Mining the dragonglass 

Nothing, not a single thing. He has executed people, gotten men killed with poor battle decisions. fell short on every task he has been given. he is not 'better' than Dany in any way, and has FAR less experience leading people (on the show).

[sweetsunray]

1 minute ago, Nowy Tends said:

Exactly. And, what has Jon achieved that could make Varys think he's "better" than Dany? Mining the dragonglass 

Agreed that Varys' arguments are nonsensical and hypocritical, given the fact he wanted to orchestrate a civil war by having Joffrey on the throne instead of Stannis.

It would have worked way better imo, if they had him reason further along the line "if 8 people know it, it's not a secret anymore, but information". He himself can foresee that more people will discover it, and that he then would appear complicit in Dany's treason to the laws of inheritance.

[Rose of Red Lake]

Varys:  "You told me to let you know when you were making a mistake.   This is a mistake."

He literally told her to her face he thought she was betraying the people she swore to protect...and she would be if she KILLED THEM. Its so contradictory, she has to kill people to save them from "tyranny"? She's justifying it as "her destiny" which is what all tyrants do. He was already disturbed by the Tarlys but this made him realize the truth.

He's standing up for the people.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

1 minute ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Varys:  "You told me to let you know when you were making a mistake.   This is a mistake."

He literally told her to her face he thought she was betraying the people she swore to protect...and she would be if she KILLED THEM. Its so contradictory, she has to kill people to save them from "tyranny"? She's justifying it as "her destiny" which is what all tyrants do. He was already disturbed by the Tarlys but this made him realize the truth.

He's standing up for the people.

but what did Dany say?

[Cas Stark]

Just now, Rose of Red Lake said:

Varys:  "You told me to let you know when you were making a mistake.   This is a mistake."

He literally told her to her face he thought she was betraying the people she swore to protect...and she would be if she KILLED THEM. Its so contradictory, she has to kill people to save them from "tyranny"? She's justifying it as "her destiny" which is what all tyrants do. He was already disturbed by the Tarlys but this made him realize the truth.

He's standing up for the people.

yes, sometimes innocent people die in a just cause

[sweetsunray]

6 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Oaths matter.  Even in modern societies, they matter.  Once you give allegiance to a person, you should stick to that promise, until that person gives very good reason to break it (eg Aerys wanting to incinerate thousands of people).    

Varys should be trying to bring about a peaceful resolution to the problem.  That would mean pressing for a marriage between the two of them, rather than trying to stymie it.  And, if he thinks Jon is too weak to stand up to Daenerys, then that means he will be too weak to be king.  That calls Varys' good faith into question, as it implies that he wants a weak king on the Iron Throne.

If he can no longer stomach serving Daenerys, then he has to tell it to her straight, or, if he thinks that's too much of a risk, then send her a letter giving his reasons for renouncing allegiance.  

Allowing Daenerys to believe he's on her side, up to the moment that he drives a dagger into her, or slips poison into her food, would be despicable.

 

Well, is Dany's willingness to sit on the throne lying to all of the realm about her being the rightful heir to it a good enough reason to break his oath? Ned seemed to think so to write one important word of difference in Robert's will than Robert dictated and had him sign it too.

If she then also justifies acting like a tyrant to those she as queen ought to protect to get rid of another tyrant it only adds to it.

Still, I agree he's a hypocrite with regards to the Joffrey situation.

[SeanF]

2 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Varys:  "You told me to let you know when you were making a mistake.   This is a mistake."

He literally told her to her face he thought she was betraying the people she swore to protect...and she would be if she KILLED THEM. Its so contradictory, she has to kill people to save them from "tyranny"? She's justifying it as "her destiny" which is what all tyrants do. He was already disturbed by the Tarlys but this made him realize the truth.

He's standing up for the people.

Suppose she did besiege Kings Landing, rather than striking at the Red Keep with Drogon?

Civilians who die from starvation are just as dead as civilians who die in an assault.

[NymeriaWarriorQueen]

32 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

That's the wait and see: does Grey Worm initiate the going rogue, or does Dany initiate it. If they do go rogue, without following Dany's example, she actually should punish them after.

Is Dany on the ground at that point or still a dragonrider?  Context is what is missing in these leaks.

[sweetsunray]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

Suppose she did besiege Kings Landing, rather than striking at the Red Keep with Drogon?

Civilians who die from starvation are just as dead as civilians who die in an assault.

Starvation take a while, a long while, and can be non-deadly  when they surrender. An assault is sure to cause more death.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

3 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Well, is Dany's willingness to sit on the throne lying to all of the realm about her being the rightful heir to it a good enough reason to break his oath? Ned seemed to think so to write one important word of difference in Robert's will than Robert dictated and had him sign it too.

considering they'd all be dead without her and the North would have lost the war with the WW's, I think she is entitled to ask Jon to keep a secret he only found out about 3 days ago.

ANyone who wants peace would push for a marriage, anyone not pushing for a marriage is literally asking for more death and destruction.

[SeanF]

Just now, sweetsunray said:

Starvation take a while, a long while, and can be non-deadly  when they surrender. An assault is sure to cause more death.

Starvation was the most horrible feature of a siege.  There would often come a point at which the women, children, and old men would be driven out of the city as the defenders could no longer feed them.

[Cas Stark]

9 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Agreed that Varys' arguments are nonsensical and hypocritical, given the fact he wanted to orchestrate a civil war by having Joffrey on the throne instead of Stannis.

It would have worked way better imo, if they had him reason further along the line "if 8 people know it, it's not a secret anymore, but information". He himself can foresee that more people will discover it, and that he then would appear complicit in Dany's treason to the laws of inheritance.

yeah but so what if people discover it?  who is going to want Jon Snow some dude from the North whose background is all shrouded in secrecy to be king?  and, all they have to do is get married, and then the two best claimants are married, the end.  also, if varys thinks jon is too weak to stand up to dany, he's too weak to be king.  that was a dumb line they gave him.

[Nowy Tends]

2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Suppose she did besiege Kings Landing, rather than striking at the Red Keep with Drogon?

Let's not forget that a successful assault on the Red Keep would have saved the lives of thousands of northerners, wildlings, Dothrakis, Unsullied etc.

[Cas Stark]

Just now, SeanF said:

Starvation was the most horrible feature of a siege.  There would often come a point at which the women, children, and old men would be driven out of the city as the defenders could no longer feed them.

There is no reason to believe that the city wouldn't turn on Cersei, or that her mercenary army wouldn't turn on her in two shakes.  So, there is logically no reason to think that a siege would ever get to the point of people dying of starvation, they would all turn on Cersei and that's the end.  It could be almost bloodless. 

[Wall Flower]

25 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Well, Dany herself is basically being treasonous, for she knows the truth as well, and doesn't do anything except for "keep your mouth shut about it". Is betraying someone who commits treason actual treason?

 

Dany hasn't sworn allegiance to Jon, though, he's sworn to her. The revelation of his parentage makes them rival claimants. It could be resolved by marriage but apparently avuncular marriages are a big no no and Varys is switching sides.

 

[Rose of Red Lake]

11 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Civilians who die from starvation are just as dead as civilians who die in an assault.

Civilians who die because of Dany are just as dead as civilians who die because of Cersei.

And still, a blockade gives opportunity for revolt against Cersei from within the city. Tyrion says as much, they want to instigate an internal revolt against her. But now its, Dany murders them directly. Thats her direct action. The U.S. puts sanctions on North Korea with trade but they dont actually go over there and burn the innocent citizens alive.