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Season 8: News, Spoilers And Leaks

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10 minutes ago, TheFirstofHerName said:

When did Varys become opposed to Daenerys war tactics?  In Season 6 Episode 10 WOW, he walks in on Lady Olenna and Ellaria Sand in Dorne who are discussing what their heart’s desire is.....vengeance, justice...and he walks in and says FIRE AND BLOOD. 

I wouldn't take a spymaster literally, when he's on the clock. He's trying to win allies and motivate them to join her. He doesn't actually want fire and blood. He thinks, at this point, that Dany is better than that. 

8 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

I must've missed the scene where Dany says she wants to murder innocent civilians directly?

Varys: "Cersei needs to be destroyed. But if we attack King's Landing with Drogon and the Unsullied and the Dothraki, tens of thousands of innocents will die. That is why Cersei keeps bringing into the Red Keep. These are the people you came here to protect. I beg you, your grace, do not destroy the city you came to save. Do not become what you have always struggled to defeat."

Then Tyrion attempts to get her to negotiate with Cersei, to avoid slaughter.  

Dany says she will attack innocents because she knows Cersei will refuse.  "They should know who to blame when the sky falls down upon them" 

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Just now, Nowy Tends said:

Maybe Dany doesn't want to marry Jon because (it is known) he has too small a pecker… :lmao:

sorry, I just read a good joke about it on reddit…:blush: shame! Ding!

Hehehe... wouldn't D&D want that to throw as shade over Jon.

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1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

Cousins still isn't uncle-niece, or aunt-nephew. The show excluded it apparently from history, but in the books two HALF-uncles (brothers to one another) marry their nieces, one of them being the rightful heir (but not having any issue yet, despite her first marriage). However, despite one of those half-uncles begetting issue on their nieces, those children were never heirs either. It went to issue of another of their brother with a Karstark (far cousin). So, cousins are ok in the North. Issue of the sole avuncular marriages known in the North are not recognized as heirs.

It's a bit nonsensical to be rival Targaryen claimants who can't do incest!

As an aside, when the whole cousins marriage issue came up in a previous thread, I checked the situation in Australia. Not only is cousin marriage legal and not considered incest but avuncular marriages are perfectly legal as well (although I can't imagine them being very common). Obviously, Jon and Dany should just move to Southeros.

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3 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

It's status related. A bastard, without a castle to his name, cannot ask for Dany's hand in marriage. The offer must come from her, if she insists on being Jon's Queen and him the bastard Warden of the North.

ok at this point you are bending the rules and story to make dany the villain.

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

ok at this point you are bending the rules and story to make dany the villain.

Dany understood this well enough when she proposed to Hizdar. She doesn't propose to Jon, because she doesn't want him as her husband, because she saw how people would flock to him. She doesn't want to co-rule. She wants to rule all by herself, absolutely and completely. She wants him to hide his identity, so she can lie about her being the only rightful heir to the throne. She, and she alone, stands in the way of a peaceful resolution.

Dany is a villain. I don't need to make her into one.

Edited by sweetsunray

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Also, what's the difference here between Tywin's savage sacking of KL at the end of Bob's war, and the idea of Dany savagely sacking KL?  No one called Tywin crazy? Or tried to kill him because of it?  Or because he sent out his mad dog to attack and kill innocents in the riverlands? 

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2 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Dany understood this well enough when she proposed to Hizdar.

Dany is a villain. I don't need to make her into one.

I guess that's one reason why, as book reader, I feel that Dany has been somewhat screwed over by the show. She didn't force Hizdar into marriage in the books, if anything he manipulated her into agreeing to marry him.

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15 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

This is also the same guy who was happily prepared to withstand a siege and kill the enemy by wildfire in season 2.  If he couldn't stand any innocents dying he should have cut Cersei's throat and opened the gates instead of working to fortify the city against the siege.

It's pathetically bad what they have tried to do in the blink of an eye with Dany.  

At that point in S2 to successfully mount a coup, he'd have to kill all the Lannisters. Varys isn't a freakin' warrior. 

They were always going to try to use political subterfuge and power as an illusion ("shadow on the wall") to get people to turn against the Lannisters, by making Dany look like the savior. The problem is she does NOT look like their savior if she's slaughtering them. They think Cersei is protecting them from Dany, and Dany just proves her right. Dany isn't realizing she's doing exactly what Cersei wants her to do, and Varys warns her of this.

Varys was defending the city against Stannis' invasion in S2, so this isn't really the same thing. 

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1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

It is toxic when one partner abuses the love and devotion from the other and wants to manipulate them into complete self-denial for their own wants. Dany uses Jon's honor, loyalty and his feelings for her own ends. That's outright evil imo.

Do you apply your high moral standards concerning the toxicity of relationships in a brutal society like Westeros equally also to Tyrion or Bronn - who are happy to buy women in every brothel they can find? Or to Ned Stark - who "sells" his little daughter Sansa to the interest of his house? Or to Cersei - who manipulates not only her lovers but each and every human being she comes close to - including her own children?

You cannot apply modern standards to medieval society. And if you do so - just to prove how absolutely "evil" Dany is - you fall into the trap that was set by D&D who want to make their character and plot abuse less obvious.

 

 

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15
19 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

<snip>

Based on this pattern we can make the following predictions: she will have more visions that include Viserys, at least once more, until he has completely decomposed (his image as corpse is starting to lose bits of body). And this Viserys will become a most beloved ideal brother, she can mourn. This alternative Viserys (we can't call him the original anymore, since his narrative will have changed) will show up as vision after a painful loss and feelings of failure. How about after losing Viserion? This was the dragon she named after her brother, and as white and golden dragon he represents a purified Viserys. And once Viserys is remembered as this ideal lost brother, she will identify with him more, and also start to behave more like him. We can then expect scenes such as the show gave us where Dany fondly remembers all the cruel things Viserys and her would do to this or that person who helped in the downfall of her father's reign or the flight from Dragonstone.

BTW Viserys is not the sole person in her vision of aDwD whose narrative has changed. In real life, Jorah started out as the one who held the ideal ruler picture before her, and how that wasn't Viserys. That's when she inevitably began to question whether she wouldn't make for a better one (treason in her head). But she sent him away for his betrayal, and in aDwD he as lost to her as Viserys. She clearly misses him. Vision-Jorah advizes her to accept she is a dragon whose words are "fire and blood", euhm which is the opposite of how Jorah had pictured an ideal ruler for her in aGot, and the opposite of what type of ruler she attempted to be in Mereen and in her eyes failed to render positive results. So, here she uses the memory of Jorah as the one who teaches her how to rule, except she changes the teaching to fit her instinct. In Mereen, she tried to be a ruler that Westeros would need as Jorah told her once, believes she failed at it, and ends up using vision-Jorah to justify being the opposite of that.

Makes me wonder what type of advice a vision of Selmy will end up giving her in her mind, once she loses him? Perhaps that advice will sound more true if it came from Daario Naharis? 

Anyway, my point is that loss combined with feelings of failure and frustration over subjects not responding to her like a khalasar makes Dany alter the narrative and advice of the role models and advizers in her life to suit her dragon instincts. This was also exemplified in the show with Missandai's last words, except in the show they actually made Missandei say it: "Dracarys". Naathi are such peaceful people that they even refuse to defend themselves when attacked. That even such a pro-peace personality ends up saying Dracarys completely justifies in Dany's mind the killing of innocent smallfolk and sacking a city more akin to the Dothraki. The peaceful enslaved becoming the slave captures narrative.

Can't happen? She's already doing it in her last chapter in aDwD, and while it reads exhilerating in her last chapter, it foreshadows more narrative twisting by Dany herself to justify whatever atrocity she intends to commit.

 

I'm sorry but a lot of your points on Dany supposed madness are based upon massive assumptions and speculation that haven't occurred in the text. Such as visions of Viserys etc. I'm not going to respond to that since it isn't in the text.

I'm also going to need a quote to back up the claim that Jorah said Dany's "fire and blood" route isn't an ideal ruler.

In terms of Dany's "fire and blood" route yes she is going to become more ruthless, yes some people might not like her, yes she may probably have to make sacrifices but that doesn't equal mad. There are several of rulers in the book (both past and present) that were ruthless but they weren't mad. Aegon is a good example and Aegon is someone GRRM has constantly been using to compare with Dany versus her own family members. 

It seems to me that you are confusing Dany becoming ruthless and equating it to Viserys and Aerys level madness where people like them would be aroused by people burning. Burning might be considered an inhumane method of killing/execution but Dany has never used it just for fun, there has always been a reason (whether the reasoning was good or bad is a different question). I highly doubt she is going to do so anytime soon,

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2 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Also, what's the difference here between Tywin's savage sacking of KL at the end of Bob's war, and the idea of Dany savagely sacking KL?  No one called Tywin crazy? Or tried to kill him because of it?  Or because he sent out his mad dog to attack and kill innocents in the riverlands? 

It’s hypocritical. The problem is none of them have faith in Daenerys and her abilities. They want to be where they think the seat of power will reside.  Traitors.

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5 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Also, what's the difference here between Tywin's savage sacking of KL at the end of Bob's war, and the idea of Dany savagely sacking KL?  No one called Tywin crazy? Or tried to kill him because of it?  Or because he sent out his mad dog to attack and kill innocents in the riverlands? 

No one defended Tywin for the killing of Rhaenys and Aegon. That was always viewed as a move that was beyond the pale by people in the story. Even Robert felt shame about it. 

Tywin got punished in the narrative because for his actions, eventually. 

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2 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Also, what's the difference here between Tywin's savage sacking of KL at the end of Bob's war, and the idea of Dany savagely sacking KL?  No one called Tywin crazy? Or tried to kill him because of it?  Or because he sent out his mad dog to attack and kill innocents in the riverlands? 

Well Tywin is clearly a villain in both books and show, maybe a likeable villain at times, but a villain nonetheless. If Dany goes through with this, she will be a villain, she doesn't need to be mad for that. The madness thing has just become something that gets brought up in relation with Dany only because of her father and Targ history of madness. 

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3 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

No one defended Tywin for the killing of Rhaenys and Aegon. That was always viewed as a move that was beyond the pale by people in the story. Even Robert felt shame about it. 

Tywin got punished in the narrative because for his actions, eventually. 

No one called him mad either or worried about his state of mind or plotted against him, and I'm talking of the sack of city, which presumably would have killed many thousands of innocents and the torching of the riverlands which we know killed many thousands of innocents. He kept all his power and his advisors.

So, having Varys betray Dany for planning to do the same thing, when we already know what a ruthless bastard he is, is a dumb plot choice.

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I wouldn't take a spymaster literally, when he's on the clock. He's trying to win allies and motivate them to join her. He doesn't actually want fire and blood. He thinks, at this point, that Dany is better than that. 

Varys: "Cersei needs to be destroyed. But if we attack King's Landing with Drogon and the Unsullied and the Dothraki, tens of thousands of innocents will die. That is why Cersei keeps bringing into the Red Keep. These are the people you came here to protect. I beg you, your grace, do not destroy the city you came to save. Do not become what you have always struggled to defeat."

Then Tyrion attempts to get her to negotiate with Cersei, to avoid slaughter.  

Dany says she will attack innocents because she knows Cersei will refuse.  "They should know who to blame when the sky falls down upon them" 

but she never actually said 'ill kill innocents' right? you just added that in?

27 minutes ago, Wall Flower said:

It's a bit nonsensical to be rival Targaryen claimants who can't do incest!

As an aside, when the whole cousins marriage issue came up in a previous thread, I checked the situation in Australia. Not only is cousin marriage legal and not considered incest but avuncular marriages are perfectly legal as well (although I can't imagine them being very common). Obviously, Jon and Dany should just move to Southeros.

Bringing up incest as a negative makes no sense in-Universe, no one gives much of shit in the books or show. They are all shocked at Jaime/Cersei but no one ever actually does anything about it. showing that they dont care. And yes, it is legal in places ALL OVER Earth in the year 2019.

26 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Dany understood this well enough when she proposed to Hizdar. She doesn't propose to Jon, because she doesn't want him as her husband, because she saw how people would flock to him. She doesn't want to co-rule. She wants to rule all by herself, absolutely and completely. She wants him to hide his identity, so she can lie about her being the only rightful heir to the throne. She, and she alone, stands in the way of a peaceful resolution.

Dany is a villain. I don't need to make her into one.

No she isn't. And to the bolded, I guess you would have preferred her to not save all the main characters lives and just let them die? left them all to Jon's ineptitude?

Edited by Suzanna Stormborn

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2 minutes ago, Torienne said:

Do you apply your high moral standards concerning the toxicity of relationships in a brutal society like Westeros equally also to Tyrion or Bronn - who are happy to buy women in every brothel they can find? Or to Ned Stark - who "sells" his little daughter Sansa to the interest of his house? Or to Cersei - who manipulates not only her lovers but each and every human being she comes close to - including her own children?

You cannot apply modern standards to medieval society. And if you do so - just to prove how absolutely "evil" Dany is - you fall into the trap that was set by D&D who want to make their character and plot abuse less obvious.

A toxic relationshit remains a toxic abusive relationshit, no matter what world or time or character. It has nothing to do with modern standards, but about the dynamics of a relationship where one manipulates the other for their sole gain.

I hate how the show portrayed Tyrion as this "good husband for Sansa, because he didn't rape her". Tyrion was still an ass to her, despite not raping her. But hey he rapes a slave in Selhorys. I consider Tyrion a villain, always have.

Bronn is a shit, who uses poor simple Lollys for his material gain. But as far as I know he does not emotionally manipulate her or even seems to have sexual relations with her. He mostly seems to act like her guardian, protecting her and her baby from her toxic sister. This isn't much part of the show. All we have is Bronn having sex with prostitutes, who in Westeros aren't forced into it by masters as slaves (though they likely are desperate for money). That is not a relationship, but strictly business, and has nothing to do with toxicity.

Ned Stark was entirely willing to blow the marriage pact, once he realizes what Joffrey is really like. But Sansa was unwilling. And he actively took measures to get Sansa away eventually, despite Sansa's protests, when he knows who Joffrey is.

Cersei is toxic and abusive.

 

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8 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

No one defended Tywin for the killing of Rhaenys and Aegon. That was always viewed as a move that was beyond the pale by people in the story. Even Robert felt shame about it. 

Tywin got punished in the narrative because for his actions, eventually. 

Robert wanted Daenerys and Viserys dead.  Even Ned knew Robert would kill Jon if he knew he was a Targaryen.  Later Cersei and Joffrey were sending soldiers to kill  Robert’s bastards.  Why didn’t Varys do something when these poor innocents were being slaughtered?

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51 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Varys:  "You told me to let you know when you were making a mistake.   This is a mistake."

He literally told her to her face he thought she was betraying the people she swore to protect...and she would be if she KILLED THEM. Its so contradictory, she has to kill people to save them from "tyranny"? She's justifying it as "her destiny" which is what all tyrants do. He was already disturbed by the Tarlys but this made him realize the truth.

He's standing up for the people.

I don't quite understand how Varys suddenly is transformed into a saint. 

Varys never stood up "for the people". He simply stood up for "the realm". For the power.

He schemed against Ned Stark and supported Geoffrey!!! For the people? Her conspired with the sand snakes: For the people?

Varys never was, never is a saint. He was and is a spider. To transform him suddenly into a martyr is to fall into D&D´s plot trap.

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1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

No one called him mad either or worried about his state of mind or plotted against him, and I'm talking of the sack of city, which presumably would have killed many thousands of innocents and the torching of the riverlands which we know killed many thousands of innocents. He kept all his power and his advisors.

So, having Varys betray Dany for planning to do the same thing, when we already know what a ruthless bastard he is, is a dumb plot choice.

No one cares what names Dany is called. That's immaterial right now. What matters is that she's going to slaughter a massive amount of people. 

Varys is open with her. He said Cersei is putting all of the civilians in one place and egging Dany on to attack it. 

It never got to that point in Robert's Rebellion. The threat was neutralized because of an inside betrayal. If Dany would just cool her jets for a hot second, she'd probably have Arya, Jaime, Bronn - or any number of people who want to betray Cersei - to kill Cersei for her. This inability to wait things out is why Varys turned against Dany. He advised her that she was making a mistake - because she IS - and she still didn't listen to reason. So now Jon looks attractive because he's temperate and measured. Dany is impatient and volatile. 

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2 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

 

Bringing up incest as a negative makes no sense in-Universe, no one gives much of shit in the books or show. They are all shocked at Jaime/Cersei but no one ever actually does anything about it. showing that they dont care. And yes, it is legal in places ALL OVER Earth in the year 2019.

They do. You just completely ignore the evidence for it.

2 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

No she isn't. And to the bolded, I guess you would have preferred her to not save all the main characters lives and just let them die? left them all to Jon's ineptitude? 

I actually like she tries to do the right thing, sometimes. I prefer my villains dark grey. Tyrion's a villain in a similar way.

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