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Season 8: News, Spoilers And Leaks

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Varys is suffering severely from a lack of the Aegon plot, since Mr. I hate magic never would have allied himself with a fire proof Targ who hatched three petrified dragon eggs using blood magic.  This is why, in the books, he is backing the guy who he believes has been groomed for the throne.

But, even discounting this, having him turn on her over things that he's turned a blind eye to in the show for years is bad writing.  There is no way around and again, I say this as someone who hasn't liked Dany since she sacked Meereen.

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4 minutes ago, TheFirstofHerName said:

Robert wanted Daenerys and Viserys dead.  Even Ned knew Robert would kill Jon if he knew he was a Targaryen.  Later Cersei and Joffrey were sending soldiers to kill  Robert’s bastards.  Why didn’t Varys do something when these poor innocents were being slaughtered?

He's a spymaster. Ned asks Varys the same thing, why didn't you defend me?

Varys replies that he's just one guy without any skill at arms.

The only power he has is through discourse

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2 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

No one cares what names Dany is called. That's immaterial right now. What matters is that she's going to slaughter a massive amount of people. 

Varys is open with her. He said Cersei is putting all of the civilians in one place and egging Dany on to attack it. 

It never got to that point in Robert's Rebellion. The threat was neutralized because of an inside betrayal. If Dany would just cool her jets for a hot second, she'd probably have Arya, Jaime, Bronn - or any number of people who want to betray Cersei - to kill Cersei for her. This inability to wait things out is why Varys turned against Dany. He advised her that she was making a mistake - because she IS - and she still didn't listen to reason. So now Jon looks attractive because he's temperate and measured. Dany is impatient and volatile. 

um Tywin and the Lannister army sacked the city during Bob's rebellion.

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44 minutes ago, TheFirstofHerName said:

When did Varys become opposed to Daenerys war tactics?  In Season 6 Episode 10 WOW, he walks in on Lady Olenna and Ellaria Sand in Dorne who are discussing what their heart’s desire is.....vengeance, justice...and he walks in and says FIRE AND BLOOD.  

Exactly.

To transform Varys into a modern defender of human rights is either naive. 

Or just the desperate try to "prove" how "evil" Dany is. 

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Just now, Rose of Red Lake said:

He's a spymaster. Ned asks Varys the same thing, why didn't you defend me?

Varys replies that he's just one guy without any skill at arms.

The only power he has is through discourse

Discourse?  He's been the spymaster in Westeros for years.  He has a massive network of spies.  He's lying to Ned, of course he could have saved him, and gotten him out of the city, he doesn't want to, because it doesn't serve his larger purpose.  

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

They do. You just completely ignore the evidence for it.

I actually like she tries to do the right thing, sometimes. I prefer my villains dark grey. Tyrion's a villain in a similar way.

Varys is the ONLY person to bring it up on the show, and only in the 4th episode of the last season. What else am I ignoring?

So she's a true Villain who also 'tries to do the right thing'. Got it, makes perfect sense.

Edited by Suzanna Stormborn

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Just now, Cas Stark said:

um Tywin and the Lannister army sacked the city during Bob's rebellion.

It's the overwhelming use of force that is unnecessary that Varys objects to. Robert and Tywin did not have Dothraki, Unsullied, and WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION at their disposal. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

um Tywin and the Lannister army sacked the city during Bob's rebellion.

lol also Varys did nothing to stop Aerys from burning all of KL down. I love how hatred for Dany makes people say the craziest things.

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Discourse?  He's been the spymaster in Westeros for years.  He has a massive network of spies.  He's lying to Ned, of course he could have saved him, and gotten him out of the city, he doesn't want to, because it doesn't serve his larger purpose.  

That's what spying is. Discourse. Words. Information. 

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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Just now, Suzanna Stormborn said:

lol also Varys did nothing to stop Aerys from burning all of KL down. I love how hatred for Dany makes people say the craziest things.

I love how people are attempting to blame everyone else for Dany's actions -- everyone but Dany. Fun times.

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Just now, Rose of Red Lake said:

I love how people are attempting to blame everyone else for Dany's actions -- everyone but Dany. Fun times.

so far what are her 'actions' that justify Varys plotting to kill her?

Of course these would need to be actions of hers since the last time he pledged loyalty to her. I'd love to hear.

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I don't see how killing human shields, in order to achieve a military objective, could be considered a war crime, either in our world, or that of the series, once the enemy has been given the chance to come to terms.  Civilians die in war.  One can try to minimise civilians casualties, but one can't avoid them.  And civilians will die if you besiege a city, whether from starvation or disease inside the city, or from starvation outside it, as crops and livestock are taken to feed the besieging army.

Carrying out a mass slaughter of civilians after the city had fallen would be a different matter.  Even that might not be considered a crime, in universe, if the city had been taken by storm, although it would be a crime as far as we are concerned.

 

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

so far what are her 'actions' that justify Varys plotting to kill her?

Of course these would need to be actions of hers since the last time he pledged loyalty to her. I'd love to hear.

Varys is telling her honestly that she's making a mistake in pummelling the Red Keep because possibly ALL the civilians will die. And she decides to go ahead and do it anyway. He's been watching her since the Tarlys. She's now proving herself that she's unfit to rule. 

She really rushed this war. In some ways she made the similar mistakes as Jon in BotB. She failed to understand her enemy and anticipate her moves. 

Cesei is playing her like a fiddle. 

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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1 minute ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Varys is telling her honestly that she's making a mistake in pummelling the Red Keep because possibly ALL the civilians will die. And she decides to ahead and make it anyway. He's been watching her since the Tarlys. She's now proving herself that she's unfit to rule. 

She really rushed this war. In some ways she made the similar mistakes as Jon in BotB. She failed to understand her enemy and anticipate her moves. 

Cesei is playing her like a fiddle. 

Cersei should have killed her at the parlay.  That was more terrible, stupid writing where the characters are all acting like fools.

Even if you always expected Dany would go mad and turn antagonist, this execution of that story is terrible, I don't see how everyone doesn't agree on that.

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3 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Varys is telling her honestly that she's making a mistake in pummelling the Red Keep because possibly ALL the civilians will die. And she decides to go ahead and do it anyway. He's been watching her since the Tarlys. She's now proving herself that she's unfit to rule. 

She really rushed this war. In some ways she made the similar mistakes as Jon in BotB. She failed to understand her enemy and anticipate her moves. 

Cesei is playing her like a fiddle. 

um no she doesn't? she meets with Cersei at the gates when Missandei gets executed, she literally has not done anything yet except express that she wants to kill Cersei. She could have flown in on Drogon and lit the city up, instead she meets with Cersei.  This is my point, Varys is plotting to kill her over nothing so far, over her being angry at Cersei. meanwhile he never plotted to kill Cersei, Tywin, Aerys or Joffrey. so nah, this doens't add up at all.

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2 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Cersei should have killed her at the parlay.  That was more terrible, stupid writing where the characters are all acting like fools.

Even if you always expected Dany would go mad and turn antagonist, this execution of that story is terrible, I don't see how everyone doesn't agree on that.

The reason I replied was because someone (don't remember who) said Varys betraying Dany doesn't make sense. I'm explaining why I think it does. I dont think the writing for Varys is bad at all, in fact, he's been logically consistent across the whole series. Even when he was working for Aerys and helping Aerys burn "traitors," he said he tried to convince himself "he's not the one doing it." He felt guilt about that and is now taking a stand, unlike he did before. There has been a lot of problems with the writing but Varys is quite well done. 

 

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

The reason I replied was because someone (don't remember who) said Varys betraying Dany doesn't make sense. I'm explaining why I think it does. I dont think the writing for Varys is bad at all, in fact, he's been logically consistent across the whole series. Even when he was working for Aerys and helping Aerys burn "traitors," he said he tried to convince himself "he's not the one doing it." He felt guilt about that and is now taking a stand, unlike he did before. There has been a lot of problems with the writing but Varys is quite well done. 

 

:rofl:

i hit send too soon.

If this is your statement then there is nothing else to discuss.

Edited by Suzanna Stormborn

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2 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

The reason I replied was because someone (don't remember who) said Varys betraying Dany doesn't make sense. I'm explaining why I think it does. I dont think the writing for Varys is bad at all, in fact, he's been logically consistent across the whole series. Even when he was working for Aerys and helping Aerys burn "traitors," he said he tried to convince himself "he's not the one doing it." He felt guilt about that and is now taking a stand, unlike he did before. There has been a lot of problems with the writing but Varys is quite well done. 

 

Varys knew how Daenerys was conquering the slave cities before he took Tyrion on his quest to seek her out.  He knew she was all about FIRE and BLOOD. Now he wants to switch sides because he thinks Daenerys is losing and Jon has a better chance. He has no loyalty.

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4 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

um no she doesn't? she meets with Cersei at the gates when Missandei gets executed, she literally has not done anything yet except express that she wants to kill Cersei. She could have flown in on Drogon and lit the city up, instead she meets with Cersei.  This is my point, Varys is plotting to kill her over nothing so far, over her being angry at Cersei. meanwhile he never plotted to kill Cersei, Tywin, Aerys or Joffrey. so nah, this doens't add up at all.

She says she's going to kill everyone. But you think his coup is "over nothing?" She says she is the sky, falling down upon the entire population. Varys is taking a stand to stop it. 

Varys was plotting to overthrow Cersei, Tywin, and Joffrey the whole time by working patiently to put Dany on the throne. He just played a long game. You could argue that sometimes he was too patient. However, the question o f whether he acted too fast or too slow should take into consideration that he is limited in his power. He is logically consistent in his characterization and the writing here is just fine. 

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