Jump to content
AEJON TARGARYEN

Season 8: News, Spoilers And Leaks

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, prettylongclaw said:

I realized, a long time ago, that I am reading and watching a differrent show than lots of people. Because in my books, Sansa has been groomed to be a queen since book 1. Like, I no even have a doubt in my mind.

Her entire arc in the books is about learning the political game and experiencing life in Westeros. She grew up in the North, went to Kings Landing, later spends time in the Vale. Thats 3 very important regions of the Kingdom that she has experience and she still has personal connections with Riverland. Sansa also lived as a High born Lady, a hostage of war and as a bastard girl, she has experienced very different situations of life in Westeros.

In Kings Landing she was able to watch closely people like Tywin, Cersei, Jofreey, Varys and she was able to see how to act and most important, how not to act as a ruler. Her chapters in the Vale are also very good and Littlefinger is teaching her to be political savy, and use diplomacy to solve conflicts and problems, you know, one would think that diplomacy is actually a quality expected in a ruler. 

Whe she was in Kings Landing she was almost raped and killed by a handful of rioters who were mad at the King, she reflects  that the people who tried to rape and kill her  were desperate for food and help and that if she could in the future, she would help them. Later, she has another very important scene with Cersei where Cersei teaches Sansa that she should rule by fear, because thats the only way they will be loyal to you. Sansa, once again reflects about this and doesnt agree with Cersei at all. 
 

In season 7 they made sure to show her rulling the North, preparing the country for winter. She cares about food, warm armours for the soldiers, provisions for the cold.  She listens to what the High Lords have to say, respect their opinions but assures them that in the end they must be loyal to their King Jon Snow and follow his command. She is clever, polite, charming, diplomatic and respectful. She was so good that the Lords of the North wanted to make her Queen. She is doing in season 7 what she planned on book 1!!!

We had two Queens fighting for the Iron Throne in season 7, both using their armies and dragons to intimitate the Lords and the people of the country, both using fear as their main tool. Daenerys literally says to those poor soldiers, "Join me or die", I mean, who wouldn't it?

Then in the North, we have Sansa turning down a chance to be Queen for the good of her family and the North and deciding to be loyal to Jon, the Lords are actually trying to bend the knee for her, withouth threats, withouth armies or dragons. They want to make her queen because they love her.


"I am ever a queen, I'll make them love me."

How can the show be any more obvious?????? I dont know how can people say that Sansa will die in season 8, like, as I said, we are watching a different show, it must be. 

you are right we must be watching different shows. I was watching the show where her “brother” was just declared the  rightful King of Westeros and where he along with his girlfried have spent several seasons learning how to rule by ruling and not taking notes.

 

Edited by jcmontea

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

you are right we must be watching different shows. I was watching the show where her “brother” was just declared the  rightful King of Westeros and where he along with his girlfried have spent several seasons learning how to rule by ruling and not taking notes.

 

Oh I believe that Jon will be king, but also believe that Sansa wil be his queen in a political marriage. They will be the ones rebuilding the country after the wars. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Error-504 said:

What is super recessive? Are you inventing terms to make your point? At least we have determined that People in Westeros aren't really human.

My point was that invoking real world genetics as you tried to do is dumb, because GRRM doesn’t play by those rules when writing, and there are numerous examples of this. Nice try, though. :)

 

5 hours ago, prettylongclaw said:

Oh I believe that Jon will be king, but also believe that Sansa wil be his queen in a political marriage. They will be the ones rebuilding the country after the wars. 

Oh, dear. 

The outline is proof that GRRM will never make Sansa any sort of queen. Whatever he does with her, she can’t end up with Winterfell, she can’t rule the North and she can’t be queen, because in his original ending those all went to someone else (members of his core five, no doubt) and he’s sticking with that ending. The outline is also proof that Sansa has never been nearly as important to GRRM as the core five, which of course many fans have intuited for a very long time, long before the outline was leaked. The fact that GRRM only came up with Sansa in the first place because he felt the other Stark siblings were getting along too well is also a big tell.

Maybe if he’s feeling very generous he’ll let her run off with the Hound and never be heard from again, leaving Jon and Dany to run Westeros, Tyrion to live a bachelor lifestyle unencumbered by an inconvenient wife, and Bran and/or Arya to run Winterfell. I doubt it, though. Sansa unlike Arya has never been a favourite of his and just like Catelyn, she was mean to or unappreciative of GRRM’s acknowledged faves (Arya and Tyrion). Catelyn had a hideously cruel death even by GRRM standards—dying watching her firstborn die before her eyes, believing all her children are either dead or good as dead—so I’m guessing Sansa will come in for similar treatment. 

Edited by Newstar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Newstar said:

My point was that invoking real world genetics as you tried to do is dumb, because GRRM doesn’t play by those rules when writing, and there are numerous examples of this. Nice try, though. :)

 

Oh, dear. 

The outline is proof that GRRM will never make Sansa any sort of queen. Whatever he does with her, she can’t end up with Winterfell, she can’t rule the North and she can’t be queen, because in his original ending those all went to someone else (members of his core five, no doubt) and he’s sticking with that ending. The outline is also proof that Sansa has never been nearly as important to GRRM as the core five, which of course many fans have intuited for a very long time, long before the outline was leaked. The fact that GRRM only came up with Sansa in the first place because he felt the other Stark siblings were getting along too well is also a big tell.

Maybe if he’s feeling very generous he’ll let her run off with the Hound and never be heard from again, leaving Jon and Dany to run Westeros, Tyrion to live a bachelor lifestyle unencumbered by an inconvenient wife, and Bran and/or Arya to run Winterfell. I doubt it, though. Sansa unlike Arya has never been a favourite of his and just like Catelyn, she was mean to or unappreciative of GRRM’s acknowledged faves (Arya and Tyrion). Catelyn had a hideously cruel death even by GRRM standards—dying watching her firstborn die before her eyes, believing all her children are either dead or good as dead—so I’m guessing Sansa will come in for similar treatment. 

Why would Jon and Dany run Westeros when in his first outline he planned a Jon and Arya romance? In fact the whole parentage would be kept in secerat until the end when finally it was revealed they would be free to be together. Daenerys was never meant to rule or end up with Jon Snow. 

 

Quote

Sansa unlike Arya has never been a favourite of his and just like Catelyn, she was mean to or unappreciative of GRRM’s acknowledged faves (Arya and Tyrion).

What in seven hells? She was mean to the man she was forced to marry when she was a child? Who tried to rape her on her weddign night? And those chapter with Tyrion only made me more convinced that 1- Tyrion is a fool when it comes to women, and George made sure to show how easily he was fooled by Sansa, and 2 showing that Sansa was way smarter than people around her believed her to be. 

 

Quote

 

“I would sooner return to my own bed.” A lie came to her suddenly, but it seemed so right that she blurted it out at once. “This tower was where my father’s men were slain. Their ghosts would give me terrible dreams, and I would see their blood wherever I looked.” Tyrion Lannister studied her face. “I am no stranger to nightmares, Sansa. Perhaps you are wiser than I knew. Permit me at least to escort you safely back to your own chambers.”


 

Tyrion was about to ruin her plans to escape, so she had to think about something quickly. The idea that George wrote those scenes to make the audience feel pity for poor old Tyrion who was rejected by his forced child bride is quite something.

 

As I said, I have no doubt in my mind the Sansa whole arc will end with her being the consort Queen. She knows the country, their customs and traditions, the religion and was educated in the way Westerosis do politics. She is dimplomatic and charming and actually able to change the Lords opinions  without the use of force or threats. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, prettylongclaw said:

Why would Jon and Dany run Westeros when in his first outline he planned a Jon and Arya romance? In fact the whole parentage would be kept in secerat until the end when finally it was revealed they would be free to be together. Daenerys was never meant to rule or end up with Jon Snow. 

 

What in seven hells? She was mean to the man she was forced to marry when she was a child? Who tried to rape her on her weddign night? And those chapter with Tyrion only made me more convinced that 1- Tyrion is a fool when it comes to women, and George made sure to show how easily he was fooled by Sansa, and 2 showing that Sansa was way smarter than people around her believed her to be. 

 

Tyrion was about to ruin her plans to escape, so she had to think about something quickly. The idea that George wrote those scenes to make the audience feel pity for poor old Tyrion who was rejected by his forced child bride is quite something.

 

As I said, I have no doubt in my mind the Sansa whole arc will end with her being the consort Queen. She knows the country, their customs and traditions, the religion and was educated in the way Westerosis do politics. She is dimplomatic and charming and actually able to change the Lords opinions  without the use of force or threats. 

Please come back when Season 8 airs. Can’t wait to hear your opinion then. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
59 minutes ago, prettylongclaw said:

snip

Whatever GRRM planned with Jon, Dany and Arya in his ending (and we don't know what that ending was), Outline Sansa wasn't a part of that ending, meaning that GRRM never planned and is not planning for Sansa to end up as queen. Again, this is reinforced by GRRM's well-known statement that he only came up with Sansa as a character because the other Stark siblings were getting along too well, suggesting again that she is and always has been rather peripheral to the main story including the endgame rulers (which again the outline supports).

I would also add that anyone who died in the outline--Robb, Ned, Catelyn, Viserys, Drogo, Joffrey, etc.--also died in the books, even if the circumstances of their deaths differed. The fact that Sansa died in the outline means that it's very likely that she'll die in the books as well. GRRM stranded Book Sansa in a marriage to Tyrion, which I doubt he would have done if he had any intention of Sansa surviving the books. 

Even if GRRM spares her, she won't get Winterfell or the North (which will go to one of the Stark members of the core five), much less the throne. Again, though, that's hardly surprising, given that her direwolf is dead and that she's no longer a true Stark as GRRM has hinted. Book Robb disinheriting Sansa may open up a path for Sansa to survive the books without presenting an obstacle to whoever's meant to get Winterfell ending up with it, but GRRM may prefer to kill her off to make everything cleaner.

The idea that GRRM would go from killing off Outline Sansa to making her the endgame queen is absurd.

 

Quote

As I said, I have no doubt in my mind the Sansa whole arc will end with her being the consort Queen. She knows the country, their customs and traditions, the religion and was educated in the way Westerosis do politics. She is dimplomatic and charming and actually able to change the Lords opinions  without the use of force or threats. 

Just because Sansa would make a good consort queen is no evidence that she will. Book Margaery would make an excellent queen consort, possessing all of the attributes you say Sansa has and intelligence besides, but that fact makes her no more likely to be the endgame queen, since she's clearly doomed (like Sansa, probably). Fake Aegon in the books would make an excellent king due to his training and experience if Varys is to be believed, but he's no more going to be the endgame king than Sansa is going to be the endgame queen, since he (like Sansa, probably) is clearly doomed. In fact, Sansa being a great queen on paper consummately suited to the position in of itself means it's far less likely she'll end up as queen. 

 

Quote

Please come back when Season 8 airs. Can’t wait to hear your opinion then.

I know, right?! 

Edited by Newstar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

Please come back when Season 8 airs. Can’t wait to hear your opinion then. 

 

Lol, I am not leaving this site, I quite like it. In fact when one this things that I always loved about ASOIAF was that theories were celebrated and gladly discussed. Than season 7 happened and all of sudden if you didnt believe Jon and Dany were to get married, have babies and rule Westeros together you were called a mad man or a hater.

The more I read the books the more certain I am that Daenerys will be a very tragic character in the end. I think that both Ice and Fire will destroy Westeros and her dragons will burn down Kings Landing. We have Bran's vision in season 6 of a dragon flying above Kings Landing (and we were told in the commentaries that this was supposed to be a very important vision) and we know that the underground of the city is full of wildfire; in the books George writes that "magic is a sword without a hilt" it can not be controlled completely.

Daenerys for me was written in parallel with Cersei, both were sold of to marriage by their families to seek power; both became queens very young; both became the mothers of 3 children; both decided to use their children to hold power, both love their child even tho they are monsters and are capable of great destruction. Cersei thought she could control Joffrey and use him to rule the 7 Kingdoms, we saw what happened in season 1. The same way Dany thinks she can control Drogon to get the Iron Throne. Savage beats cannot be controlled.

We even have Mirri Maz Duur on seaosn 1  telling Dany that she killed her son because he was going to be The Stallion That Will Mount the world,
 

Quote

 

 "Now he will burn no cities, now he will turn no nations into dust".


 

But we know now that Dany herself is the Stallion who united all the Khalasars and rode them to the end of the world, bringing them to Westeros.

Besides, doesnt she has 3 fires to light up? One was the pyre that birth the dragons; another one was the fire that burned down the Dosh Khallen temple to unite the all the Khalasars, and what do you think will be the last one? Winterfell?

I dont think she will be a villain, but she will be seing as a villain by Westeros. The Queen of Ashes who brought dragons back and destroy the kingdom. Call me crazy, but it makes quite sense in my mind.

Edited by prettylongclaw

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not sure how reliable the original outline is, that's the issue.  The author has contradicted himself numerous times.  He has said he has always known the ending, but then says he doesn't know the ending.  He has said he will never change the ending due to the show or the fans, but then said he strongly considered changing who Jon's parents were when the fans all figured it out, and has said he's changing the plot for some of the secondary characters that will be different than the show.  He was going to have Jon and Arya fall in love and that is obviously no longer a plot point, so the belief that everything else in the outline will stand seems mistaken.  And since he isn't ever going to write an actual ending, we will never know.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, prettylongclaw said:

snip 

It's very interesting to me that the overlap between individuals who predict (or simply hope) that Sansa will be the endgame queen and the individuals who see Dany as the final villain is so very large.

It's almost as if there cannot be a scenario in which Sansa can "win" the game without Dany also dying tragically. It's almost as if one needs to write off Dany's character completely (in ways that make no sense to the narrative) in order to arrive at the rather far-fetched conclusion that Sansa could be queen. 

Of course, this view is completely incongruous with everything we saw on our TVs during Season 7. Not only did Daenerys have the support of three Great Houses coming into her invasion, she opted out of harming innocents at every opportunity, and confined her dragon power to the field of battle. 

Daenerys, when push comes to shove, has demonstrated herself as someone who is willing to forgo her personal desires for the good of all. Now that the focus is shifting to the Army of the Dead and the impending doom of the human race, I fail to see how Dany as a villainous figure could come to fruition. There's already a supernatural Big Bad: the Night's King. There's already two human arch villains in Cersei and Euron. The narrative is simply past the point where this could have been a thing. 

Let's face the facts: Dany is most likely pregnant with Jon's child. Per the House of the Undying, she will marry him as well. What with the R+L=J revelation, she will most likely be marrying him as Aegon Targaryen, bringing the story of House Targaryen back full circle. Jon and Dany are a united front, and will most likely remain such for the rest of the series. 

There is simply no room in this trajectory for a Sansa-Jon marriage, let alone romance. Sansa was not only not one of the original main characters, she also has no claim to the throne in her own right nor has she any reason to seek a marriage with her adopted brother/cousin. 

Can we all just put the lid on this Sansa/Jon thing? It's dead in the water. We might as well be making the case of Hot Pie as king.  At this point, if Dany dies before the end, Arya is the cousin/sister Jon is most likely to end up with. I see both scenarios as far-fetched at this point, but as textual evidence goes, Sansa is the least likely female character to end up in an incestuous relationship. 

On a separate note, I find the likelihood of Tyrion marrying and having legitimate issue very, very small. He's had an absolutely tortured love life so far, and I don't see that changing. 

Especially if he ends up becoming infatuated with Daenerys in the books, which I suspect he will.

Let's face it: he's not the paternal type, his emotional baggage when it comes to women is extreme, and I don't see anyone forcing him to marry ever again. A bachelor's life sounds about right for his character, and GRRM seems to gravitate toward lifelong bachelors in his other writings as well. In some ways, I see a parallel between a potential Jon/Dany/Tyrion love triangle and the triangle (or sorts) between a few of his characters in Fevre Dream. 

Edited by Lysander

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, Lysander said:

It's very interesting to me that the overlap between individuals who predict (or simply hope) that Sansa will be the endgame queen and the individuals who see Dany as the final villain is so very large.

It's almost as if there cannot be a scenario in which Sansa can "win" the game without Dany also dying tragically. It's almost as if one needs to write off Dany's character completely (in ways that make no sense to the narrative) in order to arrive at the rather far-fetched conclusion that Sansa could be queen. 

Of course, this view is completely incongruous with everything we saw on our TVs during Season 7. Not only did Daenerys have the support of three Great Houses coming into her invasion, she opted out of harming innocents at every opportunity, and confined her dragon power to the field of battle. 

Daenerys, when push comes to shove, has demonstrated herself as someone who is willing to forgo her personal desires for the good of all. Now that the focus is shifting to the Army of the Dead and the impending doom of the human race, I fail to see how Dany as a villainous figure could come to fruition. There's already a supernatural Big Bad: the Night's King. There's already two human arch villains in Cersei and Euron. The narrative is simply past the point where this could have been a thing. 

Let's face the facts: Dany is most likely pregnant with Jon's child. Per the House of the Undying, she will marry him as well. What with the R+L=J revelation, she will most likely be marrying him as Aegon Targaryen, bringing the story of House Targaryen back full circle. Jon and Dany are a united front, and will most likely remain such for the rest of the series. 

There is simply no room in this trajectory for a Sansa-Jon marriage, let alone romance. Sansa was not only not one of the original main characters, she also has no claim to the throne in her own right nor has she any reason to seek a marriage with her adopted brother/cousin. 

Can we all just put the lid on this Sansa/Jon thing? It's dead in the water. We might as well be making the case of Hot Pie as king.  At this point, if Dany dies before the end, Arya is the cousin/sister Jon is most likely to end up with. I see both scenarios as far-fetched at this point, but as textual evidence goes, Sansa is the least likely female character to end up in an incestuous relationship. 

I agree with this 100%. 

Based on the spoilers we know dragon fire burns some or all of KL. But at this point I don’t think it will be a villanious turn by Dany for the reasons you mention. Will either be collateral damage from the battle or deliberatley torching the city to fight the dead. 

However, having said that the story has clearly shown on numerous occasions that Daenerys is ruthless. D&D have even commented on it on multiple occassions. I think it is still an open question what the plot or thematic point is of having Dany have that characteristic is. I don’t think it is setting up a face heel turn. 

But what is it there for? 

Is it to say a good ruler needs a certain amount of ruthlessness? 

Is it ruthlessness is important but needs to be tempered or else leads to acts that people can interpret as mad and are counterproductive? 

Is it to highlight the thin line between greatness and madness? 

Is it a flaw that she will overcome? 

Is it a flaw that leads to her downfall? 

Not sure. But it is there for a reason. 

Edited by jcmontea

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

I'm not sure how reliable the original outline is, that's the issue.  The author has contradicted himself numerous times.  He has said he has always known the ending, but then says he doesn't know the ending.  He has said he will never change the ending due to the show or the fans, but then said he strongly considered changing who Jon's parents were when the fans all figured it out, and has said he's changing the plot for some of the secondary characters that will be different than the show.  He was going to have Jon and Arya fall in love and that is obviously no longer a plot point, so the belief that everything else in the outline will stand seems mistaken.  And since he isn't ever going to write an actual ending, we will never know.

:agree:

I heard somewhere (I need to start bookmarking these things) that GRRM did do that plot change in TWOW and it created a chain reaction of changes which he didn't expect hence part of the delay anyways on TWOW.

If it wasn't published or isn't a very reliable quote from GRRM, it can't be considered relevant either way.

Edited by Lollygag

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

I'm not sure how reliable the original outline is, that's the issue.  The author has contradicted himself numerous times.

Sure, but context is important. GRRM has said many times, long before the leak of the outline (which he has admitted he thought would never happen), that he has always had the same ending in mind. He also said that the outline is just some shit he made up...after the outline leaked, and despite the outline obviously containing several elements which made it to ASOIAF which were not "shit [he] made up." So, given the context, which statement is more reliable?

 

51 minutes ago, Lysander said:

It's very interesting to me that the overlap between individuals who predict (or simply hope) that Sansa will be the endgame queen and the individuals who see Dany as the final villain is so very large.

There are probably a few who are hoping that Dany will conveniently die in childbirth to clear the way for Sansa to live happily ever after with Jon without necessarily going full villain, but yes, very interesting.

 

Quote

 

Can we all just put the lid on this Sansa/Jon thing? It's dead in the water. We might as well be making the case of Hot Pie as king.  At this point, if Dany dies before the end, Arya is the cousin/sister Jon is most likely to end up with. I see both scenarios as far-fetched at this point, but as textual evidence goes, Sansa is the least likely female character to end up in an incestuous relationship. 

 

I agree. Book Jon doesn't even like Sansa, and Book Sansa barely thinks about Jon. If forced by circumstance to marry one of his (adoptive) siblings, it would be the one he adores and who adores him.

 

Quote

Let's face it: he's not the paternal type, his emotional baggage when it comes to women is extreme, and I don't see anyone forcing him to marry ever again. A bachelor's life sounds about right for his character, and GRRM seems to gravitate toward lifelong bachelors in his other writings as well.

I generally agree, with the exception of The Armageddon Rag, which had a proto-Tyrion who was happily married (his fourth marriage, granted). Fucked-up bachelors damaged by love affairs gone wrong seem to be one of GRRM's favourite themes.

That's one reason why I suspect Sansa will be offed, so that Tyrion can whore it up at Casterly Rock in peace without an inconvenient wife in the picture to deal with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

I agree with this 100%. 

Based on the spoilers we know dragon fire burns some or all of KL. But at this point I don’t think it will be a villanious turn by Dany for the reasons you mention. Will either be collateral damage from the battle or deliberatley torching the city to fight the dead. 

However, having said that the story has clearly shown on numerous occasions that Daenerys is ruthless. D&D have even commented on it on multiple occassions. I think it is still an open question what the plot or thematic point is of having Dany have that characteristic is. I don’t think it is setting up a face heel turn. 

But what is it there for? 

Personally, I think Dany's ruthlessness serves a couple of functions in the story. GRRM conceived of her from the beginning as a fierce warrior queen. For Dany to not only survive and thrive among a culture such as the Dothraki, but to also come to rule them, she has to be just as steely as they are. In other words, you don't get to lead at the head of a khalasar by being a push over. Dany's story simply doesn't work if she doesn't have the capability for violence. 

Secondly, it's impossible to talk about Dany's ruthlessness without talking about the Targaryens in general. What does it mean to be a conqueror? Even beyond the warfare aspect, you have to have a drive and ambition to rule in the first place. Aegon's most striking trait beyond his overwhelming military power was his implacable conviction that the realms should and would be ruled by him. GRRM is a history buff, he realizes that any man who has forged any kingdom has done so by force of arms

So for the Targaryens to be the royal family, their founder at least had to be the type of person who could conquer a continent. Ruthlessness, ferocity, whatever you want to call it, is a trait shared by Aegon and Dany, and also real life counterparts like Napoleon Bonaparte and Kublai Khan. The type of person who conquers a continent is not a person who has zero capability for violence. 

That's not even going into theories about blood of the dragon, etc.  Remember that Dany's growth in power and confidence as khaleesi was proceeded by a dream of Drogon. 

Quote

Is it to say a good ruler needs a certain amount of ruthlessness? 

Is it ruthlessness is important but needs to be tempered or else leads to acts that people can interpret as mad and are counterproductive? 

Is it to highlight the thin line between greatness and madness? 

Is it a flaw that she will overcome? 

Is it a flaw that leads to her downfall? 

Not sure. But it is there for a reason. 

As far as significance to Dany as a character, I tend to think it's a combination of most of the above. 

We're five books into the story by now. This entire time, GRRM has been filling the story with villains who go almost beyond the pale of human cruelty. The world of ASOIAF is a dark, depressing place, where most people would stab you in the back if given good reason, and the very worst people (like Tywin, Roose and Euron) would go out of their way to torture you beforehand. 

I simply don't see a heroic character without some shades of grey triumphing in such a setting. Purely idealistic heroism is not rewarded in this story. All of our sympathetic, heroic characters have undergone a process of hardening, a process which should better prepare them for facing the Euron's and Cersei's of the world. Arya, Jon, Tyrion and Bran have had their brush with darkness, and I don't think this should be taken as a sign of their impending face-heel turn. 

In other words, Dany needs to have a ruthless streak if she has any hope of being a match for the enemies she's going to face. Further, I think the capability of doling out violence when needed is absolutely a trait one would hope for in a Westerosi monarch. 

Of course, the flip side of this is that violence need always be checked by justice, fairness and compassion. Luckily, Dany has demonstrated the capacity for all three, time and again. She is a fundamentally kind person who has moments of cruelty, not a fundamentally cruel person who can play nice once in a while, like Cersei. 

More than nearly any other noble character, Daenerys demonstrates her genuine desire to do right by the common folk over and over again. 

So in conclusion, Dany's ruthlessness is a double-edged sword. Her arc so far has largely been about finding the proper balance, and it's been understandably difficult. GRRM has always asserted that Dany is young and "has much to learn". 

Luckily, I suspect the payoff to this drawn-out inner debate about justice vs cruelty, kindness vs foolishness has everything to do with Dany's endgame and ultimate fate. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, Newstar said:

Sure, but context is important. GRRM has said many times, long before the leak of the outline (which he has admitted he thought would never happen), that he has always had the same ending in mind. He also said that the outline is just some shit he made up...after the outline leaked, and despite the outline obviously containing several elements which made it to ASOIAF which were not "shit [he] made up." So, given the context, which statement is more reliable?

 

There is no way to know, because the author himself is not reliable, and hasn't been for quite some time, if ever.  It's clear that a lot from the outline has changed....so it is extremely possible that not only will he kill some of the 'five' and/or they may get different endings and that includes the main 'not five' characters like Sansa, Brienne and Jamie.  I don't think Sansa will be queen, and for a long time I thought she would die because she got her own wolf killed, but at this point, I am very dubious that she dies, just as I flat out do not believe that Arya, Jon, Dany, Tyrion and Bran all live beyond the end of the book.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Newstar said:

Sure, but context is important. GRRM has said many times, long before the leak of the outline (which he has admitted he thought would never happen), that he has always had the same ending in mind. He also said that the outline is just some shit he made up...after the outline leaked, and despite the outline obviously containing several elements which made it to ASOIAF which were not "shit [he] made up." So, given the context, which statement is more reliable?

I posted this earlier but it was obviously ignored for the contrary evidence which supports your favored outcomes.

http://time.com/3994289/george-rr-martin-game-of-thrones-song-of-fire-and-ice-ending/

Quote

George R.R. Martin Says He Doesn't Know the Ending of A Song of Ice and Fire Yet

Though the ending for the Game of Thrones show is likely set in stone, author George R.R. Martin says the final moments of A Song of Ice and Fire—the book series upon which the HBO phenomenon is based—are not. In a recent interview with the Observer, Martin said he intends to write a “bittersweet” ending, though he isn’t positive yet what that ending will be.

“I haven’t written the ending yet,” he said.

...

“We’ve had a lot of conversations with George, and he makes a lot of stuff up as he’s writing it,” Benioff told Variety. “Even while we talk to him about the ending, it doesn’t mean that that ending that he has currently conceived is going to be the ending when he eventually writes it.”

 

Again with the contradictions. And why would he say he made up the outline before anyone knew of its existence? Of course he only said that after it leaked. Basing any theory on anything not published is building castles on sand.

Even if we go with the outline wasn't so made up as he claims (despite how it so often varies phenomenally from the actual published work), the artistic process inevitably, sometimes heartbreakingly, requires that certain favored ideas just do not fit with the whole as it has become and must be discarded. GRRM has cited this several times. Even if we *assume* it wasn't completely made up, how much of it was made up? Almost all, just a little? What? So even if the outline had some weight at one point, you're back to where you started: none of us KNOWS because it's not published and it may never be published.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Lysander said:

Personally, I think Dany's ruthlessness serves a couple of functions in the story. GRRM conceived of her from the beginning as a fierce warrior queen. For Dany to not only survive and thrive among a culture such as the Dothraki, but to also come to rule them, she has to be just as steely as they are. In other words, you don't get to lead at the head of a khalasar by being a push over. Dany's story simply doesn't work if she doesn't have the capability for violence. 

Secondly, it's impossible to talk about Dany's ruthlessness without talking about the Targaryens in general. What does it mean to be a conqueror? Even beyond the warfare aspect, you have to have a drive and ambition to rule in the first place. Aegon's most striking trait beyond his overwhelming military power was his implacable conviction that the realms should and would be ruled by him. GRRM is a history buff, he realizes that any man who has forged any kingdom has done so by force of arms

So for the Targaryens to be the royal family, their founder at least had to be the type of person who could conquer a continent. Ruthlessness, ferocity, whatever you want to call it, is a trait shared by Aegon and Dany, and also real life counterparts like Napoleon Bonaparte and Kublai Khan. The type of person who conquers a continent is not a person who has zero capability for violence. 

That's not even going into theories about blood of the dragon, etc.  Remember that Dany's growth in power and confidence as khaleesi was proceeded by a dream of Drogon. 

As far as significance to Dany as a character, I tend to think it's a combination of most of the above. 

We're five books into the story by now. This entire time, GRRM has been filling the story with villains who go almost beyond the pale of human cruelty. The world of ASOIAF is a dark, depressing place, where most people would stab you in the back if given good reason, and the very worst people (like Tywin, Roose and Euron) would go out of their way to torture you beforehand. 

I simply don't see a heroic character without some shades of grey triumphing in such a setting. Purely idealistic heroism is not rewarded in this story. All of our sympathetic, heroic characters have undergone a process of hardening, a process which should better prepare them for facing the Euron's and Cersei's of the world. Arya, Jon, Tyrion and Bran have had their brush with darkness, and I don't think this should be taken as a sign of their impending face-heel turn. 

In other words, Dany needs to have a ruthless streak if she has any hope of being a match for the enemies she's going to face. Further, I think the capability of doling out violence when needed is absolutely a trait one would hope for in a Westerosi monarch. 

Of course, the flip side of this is that violence need always be checked by justice, fairness and compassion. Luckily, Dany has demonstrated the capacity for all three, time and again. She is a fundamentally kind person who has moments of cruelty, not a fundamentally cruel person who can play nice once in a while, like Cersei. 

More than nearly any other noble character, Daenerys demonstrates her genuine desire to do right by the common folk over and over again. 

So in conclusion, Dany's ruthlessness is a double-edged sword. Her arc so far has largely been about finding the proper balance, and it's been understandably difficult. GRRM has always asserted that Dany is young and "has much to learn". 

Luckily, I suspect the payoff to this drawn-out inner debate about justice vs cruelty, kindness vs foolishness has everything to do with Dany's endgame and ultimate fate. 

Great analysis. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, Newstar said:

It's heavily implied. Outline Tyrion in exile makes common cause with the "surviving Starks" to bring down Outline Jaime, which means that Outline Sansa didn't survive, since there no mention of her escaping along with him. (Outline Sansa is also left off the list of the five safe characters, which includes three Starks but excludes her.)

 

He is: Outline Jaime kills everyone ahead of him in the line of succession to gain the throne, and Outline Joffrey's infant son would be first on that list.

 

The TV show strongly implies that Jon will father a child or children with Dany, not a non-Targ.

 

There's no Harry the Heir in the show, and Harry the Heir is likely doomed in the books as you point out.

 

Sure, but she's a Dark Stark guaranteed survival by GRRM, meaning she's more likely to continue the line than Tully-looking, quite possibly doomed Sansa.

 

Agreed, but Arya could hook up with pretty much anyone else and have Stark-looking kids. (Also, GRRM has already allegedly said that Arya and Gendry have separate futures.)

 

Eh. He bears the Stark look and it's been (loudly) telegraphed in the show that he'll father at least one child, so who knows?

 

He can only continue Tywin's line if he remarries and has legitimate issue. Even assuming he wants to marry after what happened with Sansa, who would have him (remembering that Book Tyrion is hideous and noseless)? Sansa? Tysha (who's apparently just a prostitute in the show universe)? I don't think so.

I can also see GRRM extinguishing Tywin's line as karmic payback for all his bullshit about the Lannister legacy. Tyrion doesn't have to die for that to happen, but he does have to fail to sire any legitimate children. Fortunately, that shouldn't be a problem.

 

It's the Stark look, LOL, not the Karstark look, and it's very distinctive. Craster in the books says that Jon has the "look of a Stark" (even before knowing who he is), not "the look of a Stark or maybe a Karstark, who knows really, they all pretty much blend together."

With all the emphasis on the Starks and the Stark look, I find the idea that Sansa will happen to marry some non-Stark Stark-resembling dude and have his babies hilarious. Talk about missing the point.

 

Agree to disagree.

 

Yes, I'm very curious about what happens with Sansa in S8. We'll see whether or not Sophie shows up for the Spain filming later in April, which is supposed to involve scenes from 8x05 and 8x06.

1) Ned, Catelyn and Robb explicitly die in the outline so Sansa could very well be a surviving Stark. There are mentions of Robb, Ned and Cat dying but not Sansa. Strange how you jump to Sansa must die.

2) Potentially, but we don't have enough context. For all we know, it could be that Jaime kills everyone ahead of him but Joffrey's son survives because he was switched with someone else. There are a lot of ways this could be played. The outline also doesn't say who else is ahead of him.

3) Would the child not be a Targaryen if Jon had a kid with someone else? Sounds very eugenics-like.

Anyways, the show strongly implies that Daenerys will never have children too. 

Daenerys- "I will not lie with you. And I will not bear children, for you, nor anyone else. Not until the sun rises in the west and sets in the east."

Then there's Daenerys being associated with Nissa Nissa and being turned into Lightbringer as well:

"Yet when she slept that night, she dreamt the dragon dream again. Viserys was not in it this time. There was only her and the dragon. Its scales were black as night, wet and slick with blood. Her blood, Dany sensed. Its eyes were pools of molten magma, and when it opened its mouth, the flame came roaring out in a hot jet. She could hear it singing to her. She opened her arms to the fire, embraced it, let it swallow her whole, let it cleanse her and temper her and scour her clean. She could feel her flesh sear and blacken and slough away, could feel her blood boil and turn to steam, and yet there was no pain. She felt strong and new and fierce."- Daenerys III AGOT

 

But even if she does, that kid could very well be sacrificed. The story is replete with child sacrifice after all. 

4) Sure and this is why Robert Arryn is probably gonna live through the show.

5) I don't think Arya will die either but the outline is about the POVs and who will be consistently present through all 3 volumes not who survives the story's end. I mean Bran's pretty much dead already for instance. Not to mention that GRRM has said that his outline was bs(which may or may not be true).

6) Yes, Arya could hook up with someone else and have kids but if her future is with Gendry like a lot of people believe then it doesn't really matter. The only scenario where I can see Arya  continuing the Stark line and ruling is if Sansa is bumped up to queen of Westeros or if Sansa gives the North to her so she can go rule the Riverlands or something (but that's a long shot). 

7) You'd have to kill Arya and Sansa if you want Jon's kids to inherit. You don't think Arya is going to die so I don't see why Jon's kids would get the North and I don't think the show nor the books are going to jump that far forward in the future. I've thought that it could happen before but i don't see it anymore.

8) Tyrion would be the Lord of the Westerlands. I'm sure there'll be some low nobility daughters that could marry him for favors and to have such a powerful son-in-law not to mention that Tyrion could always just pop out a bastard and have the ruling King/Queen legitimize him.

9) Karstarks are Starks. And many Stark descendants have the Stark look as well.  There's also people like Waymar Royce who is implied to look like Jon Snow. I don't actually think Sansa has to marry some Stark-looking dude. I'm fine with the Starks look like Tullys.

Besides, I think it's much more interesting if the Targaryens look like Starks and the Starks look like Tullys.  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Newstar said:

Sure, but context is important. GRRM has said many times, long before the leak of the outline (which he has admitted he thought would never happen), that he has always had the same ending in mind. He also said that the outline is just some shit he made up...after the outline leaked, and despite the outline obviously containing several elements which made it to ASOIAF which were not "shit [he] made up." So, given the context, which statement is more reliable?

 

There are probably a few who are hoping that Dany will conveniently die in childbirth to clear the way for Sansa to live happily ever after with Jon without necessarily going full villain, but yes, very interesting.

 

I agree. Book Jon doesn't even like Sansa, and Book Sansa barely thinks about Jon. If forced by circumstance to marry one of his (adoptive) siblings, it would be the one he adores and who adores him.

 

I generally agree, with the exception of The Armageddon Rag, which had a proto-Tyrion who was happily married (his fourth marriage, granted). Fucked-up bachelors damaged by love affairs gone wrong seem to be one of GRRM's favourite themes.

That's one reason why I suspect Sansa will be offed, so that Tyrion can whore it up at Casterly Rock in peace without an inconvenient wife in the picture to deal with.

One of the reasons you suspect Sansa will get offed is so Tyrion can whore it up without an inconvenient wife?

Sounds pretty feminist. I can see why you like that outcome.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

Besides, I think it's much more interesting if the Targaryens look like Starks and the Starks look like Tullys. 

i think that this would be interesting too.  They already do have Starks looking like Tullys (everybody except Arya) and Targareyens looking like Starks (Jon).  I think it would be interesting if the Starks continue to look like Tullys and the Targareyns continue to look like Starks. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

1. GRRM said that after the outline leaked that the outline was some shit he made up.

2. The outline gives away huge spoilery plot points, including the fact that Ned is not Jon's father and that five main characters are going to survive. The outline also includes several plot points which made it to ASOIAF (Winterfell being sacked and burned, the deaths of certain characters, etc.).

3. GRRM's claim that the outline is just some shit he made up is obviously unreliable.

Whatever the plot deviations between the outline and ASOIAF (and sure, there are some), it doesn't matter when it comes to Outline Sansa's fate if the (Sansa-less) ending he had in mind since 1993 is the same ending he plans for ASOIAF, which GRRM has said it is.

I get that a number of posters in this thread don't particularly like the implications of Outline Sansa dying and GRRM's assertions that he is keeping the ending he has planned all along, but vigorous denial in the face of the obvious is never a good look. (Exhibit A: Jonsa shippers reacting to 7x06...or in general, frankly.)

TLDR: Your fave is irrelevant. Get over it.

Edited by Newstar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×