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Season 8: News, Spoilers And Leaks

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6 minutes ago, TheFirstofHerName said:

Varys knew how Daenerys was conquering the slave cities before he took Tyrion on his quest to seek her out.  He knew she was all about FIRE and BLOOD. Now he wants to switch sides because he thinks Daenerys is losing and Jon has a better chance. He has no loyalty.

 

That's nonsense - no one in the show insinuated any of that. His points were

i) Jon turns out to be the rightful heir to the IT - until a few days previously he and Tyrion were unaware of that.

ii) Jon has popular support- even the love of most people on the allied side, whereas no Westerosi support Dany willingly.                                                iii) He's aware Dany is liable to slaughter thousands of innocents whereas Jon has no such attention.

iv) His assertion that he's loyal to the realm is valid - as he and Tyrion agree, the realm = the people, whom a ruler should be protecting, not murdering.

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29 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Carrying out a mass slaughter of civilians after the city had fallen would be a different matter

It seems like the bells tolling in the leaks is them surrendering and she slaughters them anyway. Just a hunch - not ruling it out. 

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26 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

The reason I replied was because someone (don't remember who) said Varys betraying Dany doesn't make sense. I'm explaining why I think it does. I dont think the writing for Varys is bad at all, in fact, he's been logically consistent across the whole series. Even when he was working for Aerys and helping Aerys burn "traitors," he said he tried to convince himself "he's not the one doing it." He felt guilt about that and is now taking a stand, unlike he did before. There has been a lot of problems with the writing but Varys is quite well done. 

You can't be serious. :blink:

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1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

Also, what's the difference here between Tywin's savage sacking of KL at the end of Bob's war, and the idea of Dany savagely sacking KL?  No one called Tywin crazy? Or tried to kill him because of it?  Or because he sent out his mad dog to attack and kill innocents in the riverlands? 

Exactly. Girl power! Women on top! 

Nothing Dany does will compare to stuff Tywin's done - not just during the rebellion, but also the Wot5K, and the annihilation of Reynes and Tarbecks. What a fucking joke this show has turned into. 

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Posted (edited)

Queen Alysanne (whenever you quote me the way you've done above - quote in a quote with some number - I cannot quote you back)

Please stop making straw man arguments... I did NOT claim Dany is going mad. I only point out that she's changing the narrative to suit her as rationalisations, wheere she begins to identy and sympathize with Viserys more and more. It's not madness to do this. It are self-ego-protective mind games. And you don't even need a personality disorder of it. Pathologies are merely extreme forms of behavioiur that is present in non-mad people. Non insane people can still lie to themselves and be delusional: it's called cognitive dissonance. Non narcissistic people can still believe in destiny and be protective of their ego: it's called egocentrism. Same thing but a different degree. It still can cause huge issues and make a person act out of mental despair and pain and wrongly. So stop making straw man arguments. I have no patience to discuss people wilfully ignoring part of my argument to twist it in their own narrative of what I'm saying. That's exactly the same thing Dany does.

Here's the text:

Quote
"… don't want to wake the dragon, do you?"
Viserys stood before her, screaming. "The dragon does not beg, slut. You do not command the dragon. I am the dragon, and I will be crowned." The molten gold trickled down his face like wax, burning deep channels in his flesh. "I am the dragon and I will be crowned!" he shrieked, and his fingers snapped like snakes, biting at her nipples, pinching, twisting, even as his eyes burst and ran like jelly down seared and blackened cheeks.
"… don't want to wake the dragon …" (aGoT, Danaerys IX)

This is Viserys the Menace

Quote

Then phantoms shivered through the murk, images in indigo. Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name. . . . mother of dragons, daughter of death (aCok, Danaerys IV)

This is Viserys, the man she helped kill [ETA: for those who skipped my prior posts: No, I do not actually believe Dany "helped to kill Viserys", only that she did not help save Viserys by attempting to stop Drogo, and I do not even fault her that. I use it here in the sense that Dany believes she helped kill him.]

 
Quote

 

She dreamt of her dead brother.
Viserys looked just as he had the last time she'd seen him. His mouth was twisted in anguish, his hair was burnt, and his face was black and smoking where the molten gold had run down across his brow and cheeks and into his eyes.

"You are dead," Dany said.

Murdered. Though his lips never moved, somehow she could hear his voice, whispering in her ear. You never mourned me, sister. It is hard to die unmourned.

"I loved you once."
Once, he said, so bitterly it made her shudder. You were supposed to be my wife, to bear me children with silver hair and purple eyes, to keep the blood of the dragon pure. I took care of you. I taught you who you were. I fed you. I sold our mother's crown to keep you fed.
"You hurt me. You frightened me."
Only when you woke the dragon. I loved you.
"You sold me. You betrayed me."
No. You were the betrayer. You turned against me, against your own blood. They cheated me. Your horsey husband and his stinking savages. They were cheats and liars. They promised me a golden crown and gave me this. He touched the molten gold that was creeping down his face, and smoke rose from his finger.
"You never understood. Dothraki do not buy and sell. They give gifts and receive them. If you had waited …"
I did wait. For my crown, for my throne, for you. All those years, and all I ever got was a pot of molten gold. Why did they give the dragon's eggs to you? They should have been mine. If I'd had a dragon, I would have taught the world the meaning of our words. Viserys began to laugh, until his jaw fell away from his face, smoking, and blood and molten gold ran from his mouth.
When she woke, gasping, her thighs were slick with blood. (aDwD, Danearys X)

 

 

Here we have the j'accuse, but also Viserys defending himself and wanting to be mourned, telling her he was all doing it for her, out of love. It's her own mind telling her this. She is changing the narrative. This vision especially the first huge seed that Dany will have Viserys as her sympatethic model.

On about Jorah:

 
Quote

 

Jorah pulled up his horse and looked at her. "Truth now. Would you want to see Viserys sit a throne?"
Dany thought about that. "He would not be a very good king, would he?" [...] Dany rode close beside him. "Still," she said, "the common people are waiting for him. Magister Illyrio says they are sewing dragon banners and praying for Viserys to return from across the narrow sea to free them."
"The common people pray for rain, healthy children, and a summer that never ends," Ser Jorah told her. "It is no matter to them if the high lords play their game of thrones, so long as they are left in peace." He gave a shrug. "They never are."
Dany rode along quietly for a time, working his words like a puzzle box. It went against everything that Viserys had ever told her to think that the people could care so little whether a true king or a usurper reigned over them. Yet the more she thought on Jorah's words, the more they rang of truth. (aGoT, Danaerys III)

 

 
They also talk about Rhaegar prior and how Viserys is but a shadow of a snake, and Dany can see he wouldn't be good leading armies. Here's the thing: Jorax explicitly tells her that the common people just want peace. They need no saving, just peace. But Dany goes on afterwards thinking about her having more innate power than Viserys when it comes down to commanding people.

The vision-Jorah in the Dothraki Sea

 
Quote

 

Meereen was not her home, and never would be. It was a city of strange men with strange gods and stranger hair, of slavers wrapped in fringed tokars, where grace was earned through whoring, butchery was art, and dog was a delicacy. Meereen would always be the Harpy's city, and Daenerys could not be a harpy.
Never, said the grass, in the gruff tones of Jorah Mormont. You were warned, Your Grace. Let this city be, I said. Your war is in Westeros, I told you.
The voice was no more than a whisper, yet somehow Dany felt that he was walking just behind her. My bear, she thought, my old sweet bear, who loved me and betrayed me. She had missed him so. She wanted to see his ugly face, to wrap her arms around him and press herself against his chest, but she knew that if she turned around Ser Jorah would be gone. "I am dreaming," she said. "A waking dream, a walking dream. I am alone and lost."
Lost, because you lingered, in a place that you were never meant to be, murmured Ser Jorah, as softly as the wind. Alone, because you sent me from your side.
"You betrayed me. You informed on me, for gold."
For home. Home was all I ever wanted.
"And me. You wanted me." Dany had seen it in his eyes.
I did, the grass whispered, sadly.
"You kissed me. I never said you could, but you did. You sold me to my enemies, but you meant it when you kissed me."
I gave you good counsel. Save your spears and swords for the Seven Kingdoms, I told you. Leave Meereen to the Meereenese and go west, I said. You would not listen.
"To be a queen."
You are a queen, her bear said. In Westeros.
"It is such a long way," she complained. "I was tired, Jorah. I was weary of war. I wanted to rest, to laugh, to plant trees and see them grow. I am only a young girl."
No. You are the blood of the dragon. The whispering was growing fainter, as if Ser Jorah were falling farther behind. Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words.
"Fire and Blood," Daenerys told the swaying grass. (aDwD, Danaerys X)

 

 
Real Jorah talks of smallfolk wanting peace, and she somehow turns that into Jorah advizing her to not plant trees and go fire and blood. Which is the exact opposite of peace.
 
Does Jorah talk of war? Yes, he does. He does tell her that if she means to sit on the throne, she must win it like Aegon the Conquerer. Dany connects this with the words Blood and fire on her own. But then Jorah starts to talk about the evil results of a sacking and proposes for her to acquire the Unsullied so she would have an army who would only kill those she wants dead, but will not plunder, rape or wantonly kill.
 
Quote

 

"When Aegon the Dragon stepped ashore in Westeros, the kings of Vale and Rock and Reach did not rush to hand him their crowns. If you mean to sit his Iron Throne, you must win it as he did, with steel and dragonfire. And that will mean blood on your hands before the thing is done."
Blood and fire, thought Dany. The words of House Targaryen. She had known them all her life. "The blood of my enemies I will shed gladly. The blood of innocents is another matter. Eight thousand Unsullied they would offer me. Eight thousand dead babes. Eight thousand strangled dogs."
"Your Grace," said Jorah Mormont, "I saw King's Landing after the Sack. Babes were butchered that day as well, and old men, and children at play. More women were raped than you can count. There is a savage beast in every man, and when you hand that man a sword or spear and send him forth to war, the beast stirs. The scent of blood is all it takes to wake him. Yet I have never heard of these Unsullied raping, nor putting a city to the sword, nor even plundering, save at the express command of those who lead them. Brick they may be, as you say, but if you buy them henceforth the only dogs they'll kill are those you want dead. And you do have some dogs you want dead, as I recall." (aSoS, Danaerys II)

 

 
I mislike book-Jorah, but he is not talking about "fire and blood" and also not about "not planting trees". He is giving her advice to limit casulaties and leave the common man in peace.
Edited by sweetsunray

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6 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Exactly. Girl power! Women on top! 

Nothing Dany does will compare to stuff Tywin's done - not just during the rebellion, but also the Wot5K, and the annihilation of Reynes and Tarbecks. What a fucking joke this show has turned into. 

I think they could have had danny behave with cruelty against someone after they find out about jon's parentage in order to justify all of their problems.

They even had the perfect oportunity! Danny could have destroyed most of euron's fleet with only euron's ship escaping. Then they just had to have her deciding to burn all the captured iron burn and giving a speech about how she wants vegence for rhaegal and missandei.

If something like this happened I could understand a shift in varys and tyron's aliance because they clearly don t have the stomach to see people burning alive...

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8 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Exactly. Girl power! Women on top! 

Nothing Dany does will compare to stuff Tywin's done - not just during the rebellion, but also the Wot5K, and the annihilation of Reynes and Tarbecks. What a fucking joke this show has turned into. 

An awful, devastating, heart-wrenching joke.

 

@sweetsunray You conveniently left out the part where Dany tries to talk Viserys out of suicide just before Drogo kills him. Of course that part of the story doesn't fit into the narrative you laid out that Dany 'helped kill him'.:rolleyes:

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2 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

You can't be serious. :blink:

I loved Varys in this episode. Tyrion is written as a blind follower "I believe in our queen. She'll make the right choice." Varys has never blindly followed. He's a fascinating character, both book and show. How does one identify the slide into tyranny, as it's happening? It's harder than it looks. For Dany, how does one free the world from tyrants without becoming a tyrant oneself? Of course the writing can always be better but they did deliver this dilemma effectively.  

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7 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

That's nonsense - no one in the show insinuated any of that. His points were

i) Jon turns out to be the rightful heir to the IT - until a few days previously he and Tyrion were unaware of that.

ii) Jon has popular support- even the love of most people on the allied side, whereas no Westerosi support Dany willingly.                                                iii) He's aware Dany is liable to slaughter thousands of innocents whereas Jon has no such attention.

iv) His assertion that he's loyal to the realm is valid - as he and Tyrion agree, the realm = the people, whom a ruler should be protecting, not murdering.

But Varys and Tyrion are Dany´s main advisors. And so far they gave her no alternative. And she is not the mad queen, she´s the opposite, desperately trying to avoid the slaughter. She even agreed (again) to another pointless meeting with Cersei. If Varys offered he knows a secret way inside the city, she would have no problem go with that. But they are the most useless advisors ever, only muttering please don´t that and please don´t do that either while Dany is taking more and more loses each day. All they propose is besiege the city which with Cersei having long time to prepare and with how stubborn and determined she is, would probably take months, or even years, as she would rather let everyone in KL die in starvation than surrender.

As for Jon? What support he truly has beside the North? Zero, because nobody knows him. He cannot even say he defeated the NK, his sister did. But that doesn´t matter anyway, because most of the Westeros still has no idea some NK and white walkers even existed. Actually, given his ressurection is also a secret, Jon is officially still a deserter from Nights Watch and should be executed.

When I see Tyrion and Varys plotting I see two people who are desperate to rule from behind. And now they found a much easier figure to manipulate in Jon, so they decided he would be a better king. That´s the main motivation for the treason, not that Dany is bad, but that she is refusing to listen their (oh so noble and smart) advices. 

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1 hour ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Varys is the ONLY person to bring it up on the show, and only in the 4th episode of the last season. What else am I ignoring?

So she's a true Villain who also 'tries to do the right thing'. Got it, makes perfect sense.

People have often pointed out to you that incest is an issue in the books. Time and time again, you've dismissed this, because it suited you and the show ignored to explain about exceptionalism. Regardless of discussing it much in the background story of the show, they did make clear that incest was only tolerated for Targs (Cersei makes a comment about it in S7 to Jaime when she tells him she's pregnant and will claim him to be the father) and through Cersei's walk of shame for having slept with Lancel. Now the show does take a logic moment to point out once more it's only a Targ thing, and that having been brought up in the North it would be less palatable for Jon. But even if the show only mentioned it here or there a few times, even the evidence for how exceptional avuncular marriage is in the world book and Fire and Blood is not good enough for you. That is why I consider discussing incest with you pointless, because you will believe what you want.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Unfortunately, after the Short Night battle, we cannot even say that Dany has good intentions, just selfish intentions.

 

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

An awful, devastating, heart-wrenching joke.

 

@sweetsunray You conveniently left out the part where Dany tries to talk Viserys out of suicide just before Drogo kills him. Of course that part of the story doesn't fit into the narrative you laid out that Dany 'helped kill him'.:rolleyes:

If you had actually followed my disussion with queen Alysanne, you would have read that I personally do not fault Dany beyond trying to stop Drogo. I completely agree that Viserys dug his own grave.

I also said that what happens is that Dany keeps seeing visions of Viserys that deal with the manner of his death, and that while the first time he's just a menace, he keeps showing up as an accuser of her in her visions/dreams, and that in the last book one, she even goes as far as making him a sympathetic character who only wanted to take care of her. That SHE changes the narrative. That SHE subconscously feels guilty about his death. We're not talking about whether I think her guilty of it (I don't), but how Dany feels guilty otherwise it wouldn't keep coming up for her. I actually find it NORMAL she feels guilty. People can feel responsible even when they aren't, especially in an abusive relationshit. That by itself is not the issue imo. The issue is how Dany makes him into someone she can sympathize with and therefore a version she will identify with more and more.

I am not going to re-post what I posted over the last 48 hours back and forth with Queen Alysanne in this thread. Go look it up.
.

So, nope, straw man. :rolleyes:

Edited by sweetsunray

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3 hours ago, TheFirstofHerName said:

What gets me is how Dany is suddenly more cruel than all the other murderous, scheming characters we have seen on this show?   We have seen folks skinned alive,fed to hounds and made into meat pies.  People shot with crossbows and burned at the stake. A Night King who wants to extinguish mankind.  Some viewers act like we have been living in a peaceful fantasyland of candy canes and gumdrops and then some evil mad queen suddenly destroys their serene fairytale life.

Because her entire campaign is based on her being "different" from every other ruler who murdered their way to the throne. 

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@sweetsunray

I'm not changing the narrative, this was from your original post:

I'm starting to think that he will have her turn more into her paranoid and narcissistic brother Viserys"

You clearly started your argument by claiming that Dany will turn into Viserys. 

On Viserys:

Of course, Dany feels guilty for Viserys's death, it is only natural. Despite the horrible things he did to her, he is her brother. I'm simply arguing against the leap you are making that this guilt is suddenly going to make her sympathetic enough to suddenly become Viserys. It looks like you are just conveniently trying to twist the text into your theory. Who is changing the narrative now?

On Jorah:

I'm not sure how those quotes change anything? Yes, Dany is going to be more ruthless via this fire and blood route but it doesn't mean she isn't going to try to limit casualties, or that her first option on the table is always going to be "burn them all". If you actually look at the big picture of all her ten chapters in Meereen and relate them to the last chapter rather than taking the last chapter out of context, Dany's conflict in the whole story is that she thinks using her dragons makes her inherently evil/bad. Her embracing them in the final chapter means that she isn't going to demonize the use of her dragons anymore NOT that she is going to abandon all her morals and simply burn people at first.

I personally think we may have both interpreted Dany's arc in ADWD differently so this argument is just going to go in circles. So  I think we are at an impasse.

 

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1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

 

This is Viserys, the man she helped kill

 

 
 

 

45 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

If you had actually followed my disussion with queen Alysanne, you would have read that I personally do not fault Dany beyond trying to stop Drogo. I completely agree that Viserys dug his own grave.

 

I mean these are total opposite statements made just a few minutes apart......

31 minutes ago, Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™ said:

@sweetsunray

I'm not changing the narrative, this was from your original post:

I'm starting to think that he will have her turn more into her paranoid and narcissistic brother Viserys"

You clearly started your argument by claiming that Dany will turn into Viserys. 

On Viserys:

Of course, Dany feels guilty for Viserys's death, it is only natural. Despite the horrible things he did to her, he is her brother. I'm simply arguing against the leap you are making that this guilt is suddenly going to make her sympathetic enough to suddenly become Viserys. It looks like you are just conveniently trying to twist the text into your theory. Who is changing the narrative now?

On Jorah:

I'm not sure how those quotes change anything? Yes, Dany is going to be more ruthless via this fire and blood route but it doesn't mean she isn't going to try to limit casualties, or that her first option on the table is always going to be "burn them all". If you actually look at the big picture of all her ten chapters in Meereen and relate them to the last chapter rather than taking the last chapter out of context, Dany's conflict in the whole story is that she thinks using her dragons makes her inherently evil/bad. Her embracing them in the final chapter means that she isn't going to demonize the use of her dragons anymore NOT that she is going to abandon all her morals and simply burn people at first.

I personally think we may have both interpreted Dany's arc in ADWD differently so this argument is just going to go in circles. So  I think we are at an impasse.

 

@sweetsunray as @Queen Alysanne and me are both pointing out here, your arguments are all over the place.

 

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38 minutes ago, Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™ said:

@sweetsunray

I'm not changing the narrative, this was from your original post:

I'm starting to think that he will have her turn more into her paranoid and narcissistic brother Viserys"

You clearly started your argument by claiming that Dany will turn into Viserys. 

On Viserys:

Of course, Dany feels guilty for Viserys's death, it is only natural. Despite the horrible things he did to her, he is her brother. I'm simply arguing against the leap you are making that this guilt is suddenly going to make her sympathetic enough to suddenly become Viserys. It looks like you are just conveniently trying to twist the text into your theory. Who is changing the narrative now?

On Jorah:

I'm not sure how those quotes change anything? Yes, Dany is going to be more ruthless via this fire and blood route but it doesn't mean she isn't going to try to limit casualties, or that her first option on the table is always going to be "burn them all". If you actually look at the big picture of all her ten chapters in Meereen and relate them to the last chapter rather than taking the last chapter out of context, Dany's conflict in the whole story is that she thinks using her dragons makes her inherently evil/bad. Her embracing them in the final chapter means that she isn't going to demonize the use of her dragons anymore NOT that she is going to abandon all her morals and simply burn people at first.

I personally think we may have both interpreted Dany's arc in ADWD differently so this argument is just going to go in circles. So  I think we are at an impasse.

 

To "turn MORE into " is not the same as "she becomes Viserys".

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

 

I mean these are total opposite statements made just a few minutes apart......

@sweetsunray as @Queen Alysanne and me are both pointing out here, your arguments are all over the place.

 

That I wrote in line and in addition of what I had posted already. And just to make sure I edited the post to add an ETA: to reiterate once more that I do not fault Dany nor consider her Viserys' murderer. I do fully hold her accountable for the murder of MMD though. That's her very first personal act of villainy for me.

My arguments are not all over the place. I understand you stumbled over that sentence, I put it back in its original context, several times now. And I would think that you could recognize that "turning MORE into" implies a spectrum and a degree, and that the word MORE would never be used to be used in absolute sense.

Edited by sweetsunray

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So will the title of Episode 5 be:-

"Daenerys, She-Wolf of the SS."?

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1 hour ago, tws1978 said:

When I see Tyrion and Varys plotting I see two people who are desperate to rule from behind. And now they found a much easier figure to manipulate in Jon, so they decided he would be a better king. That´s the main motivation for the treason, not that Dany is bad, but that she is refusing to listen their (oh so noble and smart) advices. 

This.

When Varys says "She's too strong for him (=Jon)" he actually means "she's too strong for us". He knows that she's done following their catastrophic advice.

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6 minutes ago, SeanF said:

So will the title of Episode 5 be:-

"Daenerys, She-Wolf of the SS."?

Da-evil-nerys maybe?

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I don't think dany has done anything either. She feels alone, vulnerable and scared. She is trying to control the secret which is normal. And she loves him. Varys betraying her is such a rushed and irrational thing to do.

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