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Season 8: News, Spoilers And Leaks

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1 minute ago, Sir Hedge of Hog said:

I don't think dany has done anything either. She feels alone, vulnerable and scared. She is trying to control the secret which is normal. And she loves him. Varys betraying her is such a rushed and irrational thing to do.

Everything is rushed and irrational and illogic, that's GoT for you.

Also, I know the writers had both Dany and Jon say "I love you" to each other, but I don't see it. It's never been properly portrayed, it's just not there. Their relationship feels totally faux and completely shallow. Whether this is because of whatever flip-flopping is coming or because they can't write a believable romance I don't know. All I know is that I look at them, and there's nothing. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

People have often pointed out to you that incest is an issue in the books. Time and time again, you've dismissed this, because it suited you and the show ignored to explain about exceptionalism. Regardless of discussing it much in the background story of the show, they did make clear that incest was only tolerated for Targs (Cersei makes a comment about it in S7 to Jaime when she tells him she's pregnant and will claim him to be the father) and through Cersei's walk of shame for having slept with Lancel.

This is manifestly untrue.  Lancel never committed incest.

His crimes were fornication (sex outside of wedlock), adultery (sex with a married partner who isn't your own), and conspiracy to commit regicide which is equivalent to regicide itself especially considering that it worked. Because his initial crime of adultery—and then during the first few months following Robert's death, also fornication—had risked sneaking his own child into the line of royal succession by having it passed off as Robert’s own, Lancel was also guilty of the crime of treason against the crown.

Cersei was guilty of many crimes, including of a person in a position of power over him commanding her younger and weaker cousin to commit the crimes I just listed. But incest was never one of Lancel's crimes, just as incest wasn't one of Tywin's or Joanna's crimes, or even Rickard's for that matter.

Lancel committed many crimes, but incest was never one of them. How could it have been? Even had Tywin secretly and unthinkably cuckolded Kevan, Lancel and Cersei would still not have been parent and child or non-Targaryen brother and sister.

Edited by CrypticWeirwood

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3 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

This is manifestly untrue.  Lancel never committed incest.

His crimes were fornication (set outside of wedlock), adultery (sex with a married partner who isn't your own), and conspiracy to commit regicide which is equivalent to regicide itself especially considering that it worked. Because his initial adultery and during the first few months following death, also fornication, risked sneaking his own child into the line of royal succession by having it passed off as Robert’s, he was also guilty of the crime of treason.

Cersei was guilty of many crimes, including of a person in a position of power over him commanding her younger and weaker cousin to commit the crimes I just listed. But incest was never one of his crimes, just as wasn't one of Tywin's or Joanna's crimes, or even Rickard's for that matter.

Thank you very much for using facts here. Facts are much better than unfounded accusations loved by Dany-Haters everywhere.

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Thank you very much for using facts here. Facts are much better than unfounded accusations loved by Dany-Haters everywhere.

Wow. I don't hate Dany. I just think she's ultimately a villain, and I think a better villain than Tyrion. At least I have sympathy for Dany and consider her tragic. Tyrion is funny and smart (in the books at least), but I have little sympathy for him. He rubs me wrong. Only chapters I can like him is on the Shy Maid barge in aDwD.

Edited by sweetsunray

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10 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

This is manifestly untrue.  Lancel never committed incest.

His crimes were fornication (sex outside of wedlock), adultery (sex with a married partner who isn't your own), and conspiracy to commit regicide which is equivalent to regicide itself especially considering that it worked. Because his initial adultery and during the first few months following Robert's death, also fornication, had risked sneaking his own child into the line of royal succession by having it passed off as Robert’s own, Lancel was also guilty of the crime of treason against the crown.

Cersei was guilty of many crimes, including of a person in a position of power over him commanding her younger and weaker cousin to commit the crimes I just listed. But incest was never one of Lancel's crimes, just as incest wasn't one of Tywin's or Joanna's crimes, or even Rickard's for that matter.

Lancel committed many crimes, but incest was never one of them. How could it have been? Even had Tywin secretly and unthinkably cuckolded Kevan, Lancel and Cersei would still not have been parent and child or non-Targaryen brother and sister.

Are we talking show here? Or books? If it's books, I agree with you here.

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Thank you very much for using facts here. Facts are much better than unfounded accusations loved by Dany-Haters everywhere.

It's interesting to compare Lancel's crimes with those of his cousin Jaime.

  1. Lancel: fornication, adultery, treason, regicide
  2. Jamie: fornication, adultery, treason, regicide, incest, oathbreaking

The difference is that the very worst crime, that of regicide, Jamie must be absolved of because it was a clear case of the non-crime of justifiable homicide in defence of a million innocents who were otherwise about to die.  In Lancel's own regicide crime, no such defence is possible: he is fully guilty of killing his king.

Edited by CrypticWeirwood

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9 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Are we talking show here? Or books? If it's books, I agree with you here.

Oh did the High Sparrow attempt to trump up some bogus incest charge against Lancel in the show?  Do you happen to have a link or the literal words used?

I ask because I honestly don't recall the relevant scene's words literally as they were broadcast, and it's much harder after the fact to search for them in the script I don't have access to than in the books that I do.

I just know that cousin marriage was common throughout Westeros. It wasn't a crime, no matter what the show's version of the Faith Militant may have dreamt up as pablum for the gullibly ignorant masses. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, SeanF said:

I don't see how killing human shields, in order to achieve a military objective, could be considered a war crime, either in our world, or that of the series, once the enemy has been given the chance to come to terms.  Civilians die in war.  One can try to minimise civilians casualties, but one can't avoid them.  And civilians will die if you besiege a city, whether from starvation or disease inside the city, or from starvation outside it, as crops and livestock are taken to feed the besieging army.

 

To stop the Nazis from murdering millions of jews and to end World War II it was absolutely necessary for the allied forces to bomb the German cities. Hundreds of thousands of civilians died. Does anyone think President Franklin D. Roosevelt or PM Mr. Winston Churchill or General de Gaulle should have been executed for that?

To stop the madness, to end the bloodshed of the Nazis the allied forces had to do what they did. Sometimes violence is the only way to stop violence, it´s the only way to break the wheel. If one likes it or not: That's history. That's reality. The bombing of civilians 1942-1945 prepared the ground for the UN-declaration of human rights later in 1948.

Sometimes something good develops from something incredibly cruel. I don't know if I would call that "bittersweet".

But should one really judge a medieval conquerer/ruler with the standards of 1948ff? 

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Posted (edited)

But Cersei is not invading any country. She may be bad. She definitely is. But she didn’t start this war. 

Danaerys did. So it’s up to her to win the “propaganda war” by showing she’s different and better than Cersei.

 

Edited by lalt

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1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Everything is rushed and irrational and illogic, that's GoT for you.

Also, I know the writers had both Dany and Jon say "I love you" to each other, but I don't see it. It's never been properly portrayed, it's just not there. Their relationship feels totally faux and completely shallow. Whether this is because of whatever flip-flopping is coming or because they can't write a believable romance I don't know. All I know is that I look at them, and there's nothing. 

I felt exactly the same.

D&D are experts in writing brothel-scenes and rapes and and just pure sex, not to mention all the cock jokes. But when they have to deal with love, they are extremely helpless. I found the knighting of Brienne had much more love and erotical tension than the actual sex scene between Jamie and Brienne. "Its hot in here...." - how childish can you be.  

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Just now, CrypticWeirwood said:

Oh did the High Sparrow attempt to trump up some bogus incest charge against Lancel in the show?  Do you happen to have a link or the literal words used?

I ask because I honestly don't recall the relevant scene's words literally as they were broadcast, and it's much harder after the fact to search for them in the script I don't have access to than in the books that I do.

I just know that cousin marriage was common throughout Westeros. It wasn't a crime, no matter what the show's version of the Faith Militant may have dreamt up as pablum for the gullibly ignorant masses. 

 

 

Not sure either anymore. And honestly can't be brought to search through episodes of the horrible seasons anymore.

Agree though that cousins marriage is accepted in Westeros. Avuncular marriage is not, even half-avuncular is not accepted by the Faith. Visenya tried to broker a marriage between Maegor and his niece Rhaena, daughter of Aenys (who married Alyssa Velaryon, a cousin). Aenys was half-brother to Maegor. The High Septon protested against it. Then later, Aenys married his daughter Rhaena to her brother Aegon, and the Faith and smallfolk revolted against it. The pair had to hide, and Maegor saw it as an opportunity to seize power for himself. He was worse, compiling a harem, killed his nephew Aegon and took his niece Rhaena as wife anyway. After Maegor died, Rhaena's younger brother Jahaerys became king, and he wed his younger sister Alysanne in secret and privately. His regent was in fear of uprising again. Jahaerys invented exceptionalism for marriages closer than 1st cousins for the Targs alone, but that only counts for Targs.

So, before exceptionalism, an avuncular marriage to a half-uncle was opposed by the Faith.

If we then look at the North we find this lineage: Lord Cregan Stark (the one of the Hour of the Wolf during the dance of the dragons) had a son with his first wife Arra Norrey (who died in child-birth). This was Rickon Stark, who married Jeyne Manderly. He had two daughters, Serena and Sansa Stark. Serena was initially married to Jon Umber, but had no issue with him. With his second wife Alysanne Blackwood, Lord Cregan Stark had 4 more daughters. With his third wife, Lynara Stark, some far cousin, he finally has 4 more sons and another daughter. Strictly speaking, first in line was Rickon Stark to inherit, but he died in Dorne when he fought for Daeron who conquered Dorne. So, Serena Stark should have been Lady of Winterfell after Lord Cregan's death. That did not happen. Two of Lynara's sons, half-uncles to Serena and Sansa, took them to wife, and the eldest half-uncle Jonel became Lord of WF after Lord Cregan instead. We don't know much beside the fact that their reign was troubled. Jonel married Sansa, but never had any issue (nor with his first wife Robyn Ryswell). Half uncle Edric Stark though had four children with Serena, including twin boys. He did not outlive Jonnel apparently. Still with Serena as eldest daughter of Rickon Stark, eldest son of Cregan, and then married to that half uncle Edric (Cregan's 3rd son, after Jonel), you would expect her issue to at least get ahead in line again, no. But nope. The twins lilely died young, and her two others were daughters, married into House Umber and House Cerwyn, had issue, but none of the issue is considered for House Stark. Cregan's 4th son Barthogan (brother to Jonel and Edric) becomes Lord of WF after Jonel. He was unwed and had no issue, and got killed in an uprising by the Skagosi. The last son of late Lord Cregan, a Brandon Stark, becomes the last Lord of WF of these brothers. He was not married to a niece or Stark at all, but to Alys Karstark. And this Brandon Stark is the great-great grandfather of Ned Stark via his mother Lyarra Stark, and his great-great-great grandfather via Rickard Stark.

What we have are the half-avuncular marriages in the North, done by two brothers to their nieces who were sisters. The girls stood first in line to inherit WF. So it looks like a power grab. Only one of these marriages led to issue which was never accepted into the line of inheritance either. And it's said these lords of WF led during a lot of turmoil. Certainly Black Alys' 4 daughters felt cheated and bypassed by their younger half-brothers it's alluded to. So, it appears there was something like near civil war between potential heirs. We don't know any more. Possibly a Dunk & Egg tale could shed more light onto it, or it might come up in the aSoIaF series when Jon discovers he's a son of Targ. Anyway, it seems a black page in Stark history.

So, in the books, avuncular marriages are not common. Only three examples are known, and there is a heavy shade of power-grabbing and in-fighting related to it.

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4 minutes ago, Torienne said:

I felt exactly the same.

D&D are experts in writing brothel-scenes and rapes and and just pure sex, not to mention all the cock jokes. But when they have to deal with love, they are extremely helpless. I found the knighting of Brienne had much more love and erotical tension than the actual sex scene between Jamie and Brienne. "Its hot in here...." - how childish can you be.  

Agree, they are extremely bad at writing romance scenes, there is not a single romance scene in the entire series that got to me, not one.

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I never once, from the books, or from the show, ever got the impression that Dany was going mad, or anything close to it. She struggled to find balance at times. She always wanted to be just. She felt she had to show ruthlessness, even while crying inside. And she wasn't wrong. She had to present a tough exterior, or she would never be taken serious. Book Dany questioned her sanity. A crazy person doesn't do that.

Did she make mistakes? Of course! And she knew it. But she also knew there was no going back. "If I look back, I am lost." I never once viewed her as a villain. That doesn't mean she won't become one. Obviously the show has to justify her downfall, especially if it's contributed to by others we also see as being just. Not that others haven't been taken down without justification, but again, they were taken out by true villains, so no justification was required. Apparently. Maybe the books will do the same, but I'm sure GRRM will present a scenario in which that is a process, and much more believable. 

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7 minutes ago, Torienne said:

I felt exactly the same.

D&D are experts in writing brothel-scenes and rapes and and just pure sex, not to mention all the cock jokes. But when they have to deal with love, they are extremely helpless. I found the knighting of Brienne had much more love and erotical tension than the actual sex scene between Jamie and Brienne. "Its hot in here...." - how childish can you be.  

Actually I thought that scene extremely cute. Jaime was 100% jealous and fearful that Tormund got there first: "You didn't drink!" and "But the Game!". With Brienne not drinking on Tyrion's question, Jaime feared she had slept with Tormund already.

He also has never slept with any other woman than with Cersei, and they slept with one another as young as 12-13, with Cersei depicted as the one taking initiative. So, when it comes to seducing a woman he desires, other than Cersei, this was his first attempt at it. It was clumsy AF, like a teen trying to get it on with his first actual girlfriend, but that was perfectly in character for me.

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2 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Actually I thought that scene extremely cute. Jaime was 100% jealous and fearful that Tormund got there first: "You didn't drink!" and "But the Game!". With Brienne not drinking on Tyrion's question, Jaime feared she had slept with Tormund already.

He also has never slept with any other woman than with Cersei, and they slept with one another as young as 12-13, with Cersei depicted as the one taking initiative. So, when it comes to seducing a woman he desires, other than Cersei, this was his first attempt at it. It was clumsy AF, like a teen trying to get it on with his first actual girlfriend, but that was perfectly in character for me.

When I see it through your eyes, it gets much more amiable. Thank you for that.

But the only scenes between Dany and Jon where something like love shines through are the first scene on the ship (when she sees his scarves) and the one in 8 01 far away in the north at the frozen waterfalls where the two of them seem to be free and not so trouble-ridden as usual.  

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56 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Oh did the High Sparrow attempt to trump up some bogus incest charge against Lancel in the show?  Do you happen to have a link or the literal words used?

I ask because I honestly don't recall the relevant scene's words literally as they were broadcast, and it's much harder after the fact to search for them in the script I don't have access to than in the books that I do.

I just know that cousin marriage was common throughout Westeros. It wasn't a crime, no matter what the show's version of the Faith Militant may have dreamt up as pablum for the gullibly ignorant masses. 

 

 

Ok... here is the wiki page on Lancel Lannister for the show, season 5 :https://gameofthrones.fandom.com/wiki/Lancel_Lannister

Quote

At Tywin's funeral, Lancel greets Cersei, but his attire of simple garb and religious attitude clearly embarrass Kevan. He later talks with Cersei privately, and asks for her forgiveness for their "unnatural" relationship, and for serving Robert the wine that led to his death.

It is strange that Lancel calls it "unnatural", instead of "adulterous", when Cersei confesses to adultery later to the HS. Unnatural seems more in line with "incestuous".

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4 minutes ago, Torienne said:

When I see it through your eyes, it gets much more amiable. Thank you for that.

But the only scenes between Dany and Jon where something like love shines through are the first scene on the ship (when she sees his scarves) and the one in 8 01 far away in the north at the frozen waterfalls where the two of them seem to be free and not so trouble-ridden as usual.  

Dany and Jon have no chemistry whatsoever imo. It only worked a bit when he was supposedly a little drunk in epi 4, and that got cut off and soon turned into a shocking manipulative scene for me.

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21 minutes ago, Sheiraseastar23 said:

Agree, they are extremely bad at writing romance scenes, there is not a single romance scene in the entire series that got to me, not one.

Have to agree. The last one with Jon and Dany had a couple of tender moments, but the Brienne knighting scene was much more intimate. Even with an audience, lol.

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22 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Ok... here is the wiki page on Lancel Lannister for the show, season 5 :https://gameofthrones.fandom.com/wiki/Lancel_Lannister

It is strange that Lancel calls it "unnatural", instead of "adulterous", when Cersei confesses to adultery later to the HS. Unnatural seems more in line with "incestuous".

Then she needs to confess to her own parents' unnatural relationship too. 

Cousins aren't incest. No crime, no foul.

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