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Season 8: News, Spoilers And Leaks

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2 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Show Tyrion doesn't hate Cersei like book Tyrion does.

He doesn’t? How was I with the impression he does? He did say that the he only cares about Jamie. 

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4 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I don't think there was a sealed-done-deal bargain between Tyrion and Cersei, but more something along the lines of Cersei demanding assurances from him that he will save her and her unborn child when the time comes, to prove his words that he never wanted to harm her or her children in actions, that he would do what needed to be done to protect her from his Targaryen queen. Tyrion agreed to this most certainly, but doing so in the belief he and Dany had all the advantage and that Dany wouldn't go fire & blood on Cersei and KL. 

I can agree with this.

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1 minute ago, Nightwish said:

He doesn’t? How was I with the impression he does? He did say that the he only cares about Jamie. 

He dislikes cersei. I don t think he hates her… We just have to look at last times they were together to see they are simpathetic towards each other.

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Tyrion will never betray anyone for Cersei. But when Daenerys will go rampage on KL, will have Varys burned, he will betray her for anyone who could help. And given what  Sansa told him...

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2 hours ago, divica said:

Because medieval people don't suddenly think about a council/democracy. We haven't seen anyone wanting to live in a different regime that they have always lived. Are we supposed to believe Tyrion will suddenly think that they should form a council? No one has ever raised problems about what powers a king should have...

Convening a Great Council to resolve unclear imperial succession is hardly unthinkable, for it has happened many times before. Anybody could think of calling for one, not merely Tyrion.

Imagine if Jon and Dany both abdicate all claim to rulership and then elope atop Drogon for parts unknown. What other choice would the lords of Westeros have at that point that to call a Great Council so they could figure out what to do next?

The Great Council is not a democracy. It's more like a convention of the college of cardinals or of the electoral college of the Holy Roman Empire. In the latter case of the HRE, there are only seven or eight prince-electors in the electoral college.  It's not really what you would call "democracy" when there are only sevenish voters.

The Great Council could easily apportion one vote to each of the Lords Paramount, for example, in a vote to decide who should take the helm once the Targaryen line is for all intents and purposes extinguished forever. Don't equate having a scant few of the "elect", essentially princes of their own realms, with actual democracy. 

So what if a handful of princes vote for their king? That isn't democracy, and it's nothing new to Westeros, either. It's perfectly logical.

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1 minute ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Convening a Great Council to resolve unclear imperial succession is hardly unthinkable, for it has happened many times before. Anybody could think of calling for one, not merely Tyrion.

Imagine if Jon and Dany both abdicate all claim to rulership and then elope atop Drogon for parts unknown. What other choice would the lords of Westeros have at that point that to call a Great Council so they could figure out what to do next?

The Great Council is not a democracy. It's more like a convention of the college of cardinals or of the electoral college of the Holy Roman Empire. In the latter case of the HRE, there are only seven or eight prince-electors in the electoral college.  It's not really what you would call "democracy" when there are only sevenish voters.

The Great Council could easily apportion one vote to each of the Lords Paramount, for example, in a vote to decide who should take the helm once the Targaryen line is for all intents and purposes extinguished forever. Don't equate having a scant few of the "elect", essentially princes of their own realms, with actual democracy. 

So what if a handful of princes vote for their king? That isn't democracy, and it's nothing new to Westeros, either. It's perfectly logical.

We are talking about diferent things.

A great council chosing a new king I can agree. That new king being bran is utter bulshit. And the idea I have had from the leaks is that westeros is ruled by a council presided by bran...

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15 minutes ago, divica said:

He dislikes cersei. I don t think he hates her… We just have to look at last times they were together to see they are simpathetic towards each other.

Once upon a time 

 

I don’t believe he will betray Dany for Cersei, perhaps for stupid Jamie who can’t leave the skirts of his sister and doesn’t regret throwing children from towers. 

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1 minute ago, Nightwish said:

Once upon a time 

 

I don’t believe he will betray Dany for Cersei, perhaps for stupid Jamie who can’t leave the skirts of his sister and doesn’t regret throwing children from towers. 

But will he betray Dany for Casterly Rock, if Cersei promises it to him ?

 

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Maelia said:

But will he betray Dany for Casterly Rock, if Cersei promises it to him ?

 

I think they have Casterly Rock already ands it’s mainly empty, Tyrion went for it and send the Unsullied there during last season. 

By the way these were nice dialogues not the two lines we get now. 

Edited by Nightwish

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

I think they have Casterly Rock already ands it’s mainly empty, Tyrion went for it and send the Unsullied there during last season. 

I don't think he would care that it's empty. Him being Lord of Casterly Rock would be highly symbolic for him (and a big f**k you to his late father :D)

edit : yup, I agree about the dialogues (it hurts, really)

Edited by Maelia

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Maelia said:

I don't think he would care that it's empty. Him being Lord of Casterly Rock would be highly symbolic for him (and a big f**k you to his late father :D)

 

I think Tyrion most of all wanted recognition that’s what he misses all along from his family. But Cersei also hated his guts ever since he was born. Tyrion was almost crying in the dungeon when Oberyn had visited him telling him the story of his birth where Cersei advertised him as a monster and blamed him for killing their mother. 

He has really suffered so much hate from her side how can he go back in trusting her?

https://youtu.be/M7n79tN6Fpw

Edited by Nightwish

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12 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

I think they have Casterly Rock already ands it’s mainly empty, Tyrion went for it and send the Unsullied there during last season. 

By the way these were nice dialogues not the two lines we get now. 

Ah, man, Charles Dance was so fucking majestic as Tywin.

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7 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

 

I think Tyrion most of all wanted recognition that’s what he misses all along from his family. But Cersei also hated his guts ever since he was born. Tyrion was almost crying in the dungeon when Oberyn had visited him telling him the story of his birth where Cersei advertised him as a monster and blamed him for killing their mother.  

She has really suffered so much hate from her side how can he go back in trusting her?

https://youtu.be/M7n79tN6Fpw

Yes I see what you mean. It's also what I mean with the title of Lord of Casterly Rock being symbolic.

Not just because he will be a Lord with power, but because he will be recognized as a real Lannister, as a real part of the family.

I don't think it's pure hatred of Cersei from him ; he hates her because she doesn't accept him. The tears in the video, for me, are : "why doesn't she love me?" And I think that deep down, he just wants to be accepted and recognized in the family, and I think that receiving that title would mean that to him.

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15 minutes ago, bloodsteel bitterraven said:

I have very low expectations from the last two episodes, but I wouldn't get upset about spoilers, like many seem to be.  At this point the spoilers are all out of context, and in many cases mixed with fanfiction.

I agree that you shouldn't get upset about this or that potential spoiler; even the real ones that came out before the previous episodes were horribly distorted and misrepresentative stripped of their broader context.

Keeping expectations low enough that you stop trying to predict anything about the final endgame is healthy, because that way you're not too attached to your own imagined scenarios. High expectations that the story is the one you think it is rather than the one that Martin thinks it is are the source of a lot of chest-beating and hair-pulling from the fanatics, and you do well to stay clear of them. 

Some of the spoiler-triggered extreme anger you see happening right now in the more rabid segments of the fan base is because they've all along misread Martin's Song of Ice and Fire as being heroic fantasy when it's actually something very different. Your bog-standard heroic fantasy has unambiguous heroes and unambiguous villains replaying the tired old good-versus-evil motif, where its heroes must triumph over its villains. You can have some losses, but you can't lose the main heroes themselves. What the incensed fanatics are missing is that this is not heroic fantasy at all!  You can tell because it has no wholly good, unambiguous heroes.

Clearly it is a drama, but of what sort? Since we know a Song of Ice and Fire is a drama, all that's left is to decide is whether this drama is a comedy or a tragedy. Clearly it is not a sweet comedy. I'm sorry, Sansa, but Florian and Jonquil this tale is not. Having eliminated all other possibilities, the only one remaining, however unbelievable, must necessarily be the right answer. It’s a tragedy, and always has been.

Instead the Song of Ice and Fire is a Shakespearean or Greek tragedy, which means its protagonists are actually tragic heroes. Tragic heroes, however noble their own notion of self and purpose, are humans with fatal flaws that will inexorably lead to their own downfall and demise.

Whether Hamlet or Macbeth, Oedipus or Achilles, these tragic heroes always fall in the end. This is the whole point. But they're still heroes, and it certainly doesn't mean that the drama is unworthy of our admiration just because it doesn't have a fairytale ending of happily-ever-after. 

For that you'll always have Florian and Jonquil.

 

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54 minutes ago, divica said:

It doesn t make any sense! When she is near them she doesn t want to kill them and when they go away the mudereous itch appears?

When they are close she can see their plot armor, and when they are far she forgets about it. ;)

 

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40 minutes ago, divica said:

We are talking about different things.

A great council choosing a new king I can agree. That new king being Bran is utter bullshit. And the idea I have had from the leaks is that Westeros is ruled by a council presided by Bran...

Yes, all that's utter nonsense, the drivel of mad dogs salivating. It isn't going to happen.  Pay them no more heed than you pay their silly pot-stirring "theories" that are just meant to turn people's cranks and get them bent out of shape. 

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4 minutes ago, Maelia said:

Yes I see what you mean. It's also what I mean with the title of Lord of Casterly Rock being symbolic.

Not just because he will be a Lord with power, but because he will be recognized as a real Lannister, as a real part of the family.

I don't think it's pure hatred of Cersei from him ; he hates her because she doesn't accept him. The tears in the video, for me, are : "why doesn't she love me?" And I think that deep down, he just wants to be accepted and recognized in the family, and I think that receiving that title would mean that to him.

Yes perhaps in this sense, but I don’t know how he could come to trust her after all the hate he has received from her. Even though he did...after believing she would come to fight with them to save her baby but nevertheless, we can’t say if that was trust or a part of a betrayal. 

By the way it’s so evident from the videos how Tyrion’s  character became so spineless after the script stopped following the original story. Back then we could see emotions, frustration, anger, love, now the characters are far more unreadable. 

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1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

My guess is they wrote that in as fan service to give Bronn another couple of scenes, his scenes were all dumb fan service.  That's the answer.

I agree, that's the (sad) answer. The scene is so ill-conceived that we can be sure that it's just sloppy fan service…

Bron that no one in Winterfell knows walks around with impunity, breaks the nose of the queen's Hand, is promised a castle by Jaime - by what right? When did Dany appoint him master of real estate in the kingdom? The Lannister bro have only one word to say to get that asshole Bron arrested and thrown in an icy cell… 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Nightwish said:

He doesn’t? How was I with the impression he does? He did say that the he only cares about Jamie. 

Not caring for is not the same as hating. Show Tyrion never wishes to make Myrcella queen and start a war between Cersei, Tommen and Myrcella. Show Tyrion never wishes to rape Cersei or strangle her. Even as Hand show Tyrion always pleads for her understanding, always goes on with 'you love your children'. Book Tyrion hates Cersei deeply, doesn't believe one moment that she actually loves her children. And book Tyrion has the memory of an elephant, like Tywin, on every grievance done to him, nursing it to grow.

D&D altered Cersei into Carol and Tyrion into Saint Tyrion. And even in s7 they eventually had Tyrion be sympathetic to Cersei, and him just begging for her acceptance as her brother, like he wanted Tywin to accept him as his son. If Carol held out the carrot that she might finally recognize him as a good brother, an innocent, then Saint Tyrion cannot resist it.

They're not their book counterparts, but the black sheep of the family craving love and acceptance from the narcissistic golden child is quite common. As a victim of her abuse, he eventually craves her love.

 

Edited by sweetsunray

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3 hours ago, Nightwish said:

He doesn’t? How was I with the impression he does? He did say that the he only cares about Jamie. 

Doesn't matter if he haters her or not. SHE hates him. Would have killed him 10x over in that truce attempt.

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