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Season 8: News, Spoilers And Leaks

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17 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

To be fair, book Bran already sits a throne in the books atm - a weirwood throne, which is what kings of old sat on as well, living an unbelievably long life. And the inheritance isn't their children, but fate choosing some future child with greenseer ability.

To be fair greenseeing is more like linking people to the old gods… As in greenseers give visions and answer people's questions and guide people.

Linking this story to the IT seems really far fetched. But we need to see how all this magic will affect bran because to me his Destiny is linked to the weeirwood net and interfiring in the story by entering people's dreams or is face apearing in a weirwood tree…  having bran moving around sounds counter productive to me...

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Just now, divica said:

To be fair greenseeing is more like linking people to the old gods… As in greenseers give visions and answer people's questions and guide people.

Linking this story to the IT seems really far fetched. But we need to see how all this magic will affect bran because to me his Destiny is linked to the weeirwood net and interfiring in the story by entering people's dreams or is face apearing in a weirwood tree…  having bran moving around sounds counter productive to me...

The old gods are the former greenseers.

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Just now, longest night said:

Yet also all that comes at a cost of "necessary" blood sacrifices for the "greater good".  Blood sacrifices were given to the weirwood trees, Bran is eating Jojen paste, and of course all the collateral damage such as Hodor which in the show was clearly intentional. 

Were it blood sacrifices or executions of criminals? It's ignorant people like Andals who called it sacrifices. They installed "trial by combat" instead to determine who lives or who dies. Who would you rather have for judge if you were innocent and wrongly accused of a crime? Trial by combat, bribed witnesses or a greenseer?

Jojen paste is a theory as of yet unconfirmed. That said, Bran has eaten suspicous pork on his way to Craster's just to survive. Most people seem to miss that part, but then again eating wights is a way to both survive as well as be rid of it in the environment they're in. It is possible that tasting blood helps a greenseer to make his first true connection to the weirnet. The carves faces and eyes of a tree, are also only a teaching tool, but not a permanent requirement. It doesn't seem though that this is a continued necessity. 

There is something dark about greenseeing, coming with a price, but that doesn't make it evil. It's closest to "living nature" in the books, and nature can be warm sunrays on your face, flowers in the meadow, a cute baby in your arms. But it is also death, eat and be eaten.

Yes, Hodor is a victim of Bran's mistakes. Has he done anything like that ever since?

There is no utopia, but at least the Littlefingers and Varyses and Cerseis and potentially Danys won't be able to deceive society.

I get that people wish Dany would not have done what she did last epi and that they might try to point the finger at Bran for setting it in motion by telling Jon - that he is evil. Then again, Bran never informed anyone else before Jon told him to, and only to those Jon wished it too. He explicitly said - it is your choice. Jon had a right to know ASAP, because it's crucial information for his identity, to make choices for himself on the accurate data. Meanwhile the danger within Dany was always there and Jon was not objective about her (not saying he needed to be suspicious of her like Varys or Sansa), because he didn't know her. He displayed cognitive dissonance when it came to Dany all up to this episode. Just as much as it was Jon's choice to want to tell Sansa and Arya, it was Sansa's free will to tell it to Tyrion, and for Tyrion to tell Varys, for Varys to act upon it, etc. When a "truth" coming out makes someone else decide of their own volition to kill a million citizens, then the latter "cannot handle the truth" let alone "power". Truth and free will, that is what Bran used. I can't call that "evil". 

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, divica said:

To be fair greenseeing is more like linking people to the old gods… As in greenseers give visions and answer people's questions and guide people.

Linking this story to the IT seems really far fetched. But we need to see how all this magic will affect bran because to me his Destiny is linked to the weeirwood net and interfiring in the story by entering people's dreams or is face apearing in a weirwood tree…  having bran moving around sounds counter productive to me...

Don't think there will be an Iron Throne for Bran to sit on, but a weirwood one. And yes, it is linked to the old gods, as the old gods = greenseers. Bran as king is the return of the old gods to all of Westeros. Greenseeing wasn't always exclusively a northern thing. It was part of all of Westeros, except the Ironborn, before the Andals came. And much of the maligning of the greenseers comes from the Andals, who wanted to be kings instead. Used to be not much greenseeing power left in Cat's opinion in the RL, but clearly something is happening there to help the smallfolk and characters against the psychopaths and machiavelists of society. It's rh'lor now officially in the RL, but greenseer stuff underneath it, regaining a foot in the RL door. Heck, greenseeing had even retreated almost completely out of the North. Theon hearing his name spoken by Bran through the tree in WF is perhaps the first time since ages a greenseer spoke again.

If this is true, that Bran is king, his throne will be at the Gods' Eye (name says it really), where there is a grove and he can communicate with the realm directly.

Edited by sweetsunray

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Were it blood sacrifices or executions of criminals? It's ignorant people like Andals who called it sacrifices. They installed "trial by combat" instead to determine who lives or who dies. Who would you rather have for judge if you were innocent and wrongly accused of a crime? Trial by combat, bribed witnesses or a greenseer?

Jojen paste is a theory as of yet unconfirmed. That said, Bran has eaten suspicous pork on his way to Craster's just to survive. Most people seem to miss that part, but then again eating wights is a way to both survive as well as be rid of it in the environment they're in. It is possible that tasting blood helps a greenseer to make his first true connection to the weirnet. The carves faces and eyes of a tree, are also only a teaching tool, but not a permanent requirement. It doesn't seem though that this is a continued necessity. 

There is something dark about greenseeing, coming with a price, but that doesn't make it evil. It's closest to "living nature" in the books, and nature can be warm sunrays on your face, flowers in the meadow, a cute baby in your arms. But it is also death, eat and be eaten.

Yes, Hodor is a victim of Bran's mistakes. Has he done anything like that ever since?

There is no utopia, but at least the Littlefingers and Varyses and Cerseis and potentially Danys won't be able to deceive society.

I get that people wish Dany would not have done what she did last epi and that they might try to point the finger at Bran for setting it in motion by telling Jon - that he is evil. Then again, Bran never informed anyone else before Jon told him to, and only to those Jon wished it too. He explicitly said - it is your choice. Jon had a right to know ASAP, because it's crucial information for his identity, to make choices for himself on the accurate data. Meanwhile the danger within Dany was always there and Jon was not objective about her (not saying he needed to be suspicious of her like Varys or Sansa), because he didn't know her. He displayed cognitive dissonance when it came to Dany all up to this episode. Just as much as it was Jon's choice to want to tell Sansa and Arya, it was Sansa's free will to tell it to Tyrion, and for Tyrion to tell Varys, for Varys to act upon it, etc. When a "truth" coming out makes someone else decide of their own volition to kill a million citizens, then the latter "cannot handle the truth" let alone "power". Truth and free will, that is what Bran used. I can't call that "evil". 

If it meant someone is able to watch everything I do? I'd choose a less accurate form of trial. We don't know how extensive the blood sacrifices are. Are the greenseers even a reliable source of information? What if they lie to suit their own agenda and innocents die because of it? Old Nan said all crows lie.

Jojen paste is a pretty damn evident theory.

Hodor is a victim of the 3EC. It is the 3EC that took him to that time and place so Hodor would become Hodor, so he could become mentally deficient, and able to carry Bran and eventually hold the door. We actually don't know what Bran has been up to.

If you have an omniscient government, you can feel safe that no one is lying, unless that government itself has its own agenda.

Daenerys did the deed, but Bran let it happen. He saw the visions of the events and didn't say a word. Yet why in hell did Bran even care who Jon's parents are? It had no role in his own self preservation to destroy the Night King.

 

 

Edited by longest night

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, longest night said:

Daenerys did the deed, but Bran let it happen. He saw the visions of the events and didn't say a word. Yet why in hell did Bran even care who Jon's parents are? It had no role in his own self preservation to destroy the Night King.

Free will. That is the counterpart of someone being omniscient. Once someone who can see all truth starts to take away another's free will, take away their choice when facing the truth, then you have a tyrant again.

Bran cared, because it was the truth, and because he has indications that this queen may be bad for the people. And yet there's a difference between informing someone of a crucial truth of their past or of a crime of the past AND informing someone or warning them of what they might do wrong (prophecy). He can't just say "clap her in chains for what she may do sometime in the future". She must be presented the choice of actions and choose of her own free will how to deal with it, and that without foreknowledge. Claudius of I Claudius would call it, "let the muck reveal itself". Nor was the future image he saw one that had a foregone conclusion. Sole future image he saw was a dragon flying over the roofs of KL. And as Mel's visions show: trying to prevent stuff based on what you see in the future, has a weird way of backfiring and make it come true.

Edited by sweetsunray

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14 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Free will. That is the counterpart of someone being omniscient. Once someone who can see all truth starts to take away another's free will, take away their choice when facing the truth, then you have a tyrant again.

Bran cared, because it was the truth, and because he has indications that this queen may be bad for the people. And yet there's a difference between informing someone of a crucial truth of their past or of a crime of the past AND informing someone or warning them of what they might do wrong (prophecy). He can't just say "clap her in chains for what she may do sometime in the future". She must be presented the choice of actions and choose of her own free will how to deal with it, and that without foreknowledge. Claudius of I Claudius would call it, "let the muck reveal itself".

How many times did Bran strip Hodor of his free will?

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, longest night said:

How many times did Bran strip Hodor of his free will?

A few times. Has he ever done it again after? No. Hodor's mind was an expensive and cruel price for Bran to learn about free will. That said, do you doubt a non-mentally-harmed Hodor would not have held the door for Bran? Hodor clearly cared about him. He didn't need to control Meera's mind or Jojen's to want to sacrifice themselves for him, did he?

Edited by sweetsunray

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Just now, sweetsunray said:

A few times. Has he ever done it again after? No. Hodor was an expensive price for Bran to learn about free will.

He did it all the way up until he forced Hodor to sacrifice himself. 

How do you know he hasn't? Bran isn't Bran anymore. We don't get to see much of what he does at all. For all we know, he warged Daenerys or Drogon and burned King's Landing himself. We never actually get to see Daenerys or her reaction through all the sequence of her burning.

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3 minutes ago, longest night said:

He did it all the way up until he forced Hodor to sacrifice himself. 

How do you know he hasn't? Bran isn't Bran anymore. We don't get to see much of what he does at all. For all we know, he warged Daenerys or Drogon and burned King's Landing himself. We never actually get to see Daenerys or her reaction through all the sequence of her burning.

:bs:Meera and Jojen sacrificed themselves for him too, without being mind controlled. And Hodor always cared for him, before Bran even used his mind at Queenscrown. If Hodor had the intelligence, he would have done the same thing.

And Bran doesn't want anything for himself anymore.

Edited by sweetsunray

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

BS. Meera and Jojen sacrificed themselves for him too, without being mind controlled. And Hodor always cared for him, before Bran even used his mind at Queenscrown. Bran doesn't want anything for himself anymore.

Bran forced Hodor to hold that door. The 3EC(R) intentionally put Bran in that time to force Bran to turn Wylas (Walder) into Hodor. Hodor was a simpleton, does that mean his free will and life is any less important? Did he deserve to be a simpleton?

The 3EC(R) wanted a wheelchair for himself. The idea he doesn't want any more is a lie.

Edited by longest night

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, longest night said:

Bran forced Hodor to hold that door. The 3EC intentionally put Bran in that time to force Bran to turn Willis (Walder) into Hodor. Hodor was a simpleton, does that mean his free will and life is any less important? Did he deserve to be a simpleton?

Bran wanted a wheelchair for himself.

I do not deny Bran forced Hodor. Just pointing out that if Hodor had the the wits to make a choice, we can conclude he would have made the same choice of his own free will (especially since he's a descendant of Dunk). Like Jorah chooses to use his body to defend Dany in epi 3, like Jojen chose to get Bran to the cave even if he knew it would mean his death, like Meera time and time again chose to defend Bran, like Osha chose to protect Rickon, etc...

Hodor's mind and Bran's control of him is a snake eating its own tail. Bran controls Hodor's mind because he is too simple to wield a sword intelligently himself, but Hodor still tries to protect Bran when not controlled. This mind control though ends up being the cause why Willis lost his mind long before Bran was born. But without Willis having lost his mind, Bran would never have needed to control his mind to protect them on his escape and journey to the cave, because Willis would have chosen to do so himself.

Nowhere, did I say that Hodor's free will or his life is less important. Nowhere do I say he deserved to be a simpleton. What I am saying is that we get indications that Willis would have died a hero with his wits intact. But yes, it would have been better if Willis could have shown us that, of his own free will and with his wits intact.

It's like that scene of Dany and Jorah in epi 3. If you had your eye on Jorah, you saw he pushed Dany out of the way and threw himself before the wight's sword that somehow pierced his plate armor. If you instead focused on Dany in the same movement, it looked as if she pushed and threw Jorah in front of her as a shield against the wight, which was infuiriating to see instinctively... and yet even if Dany had indeed done such a thing to Jorah (she didn't, was just a trick of perception if you focused more on her), we would all recognize that Jorah would have wanted to die shielding her. And all we hypothetically would be angry over is Dany not giving Jorah the chance to do it by choice and voluntarily. The result though is the same.

Edited by sweetsunray

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I do not deny Bran forced Hodor. Just pointing out that if Hodor had the the wits to make a choice, we can conclude he would have made the same choice of his own free will (especially since he's a descendant of Dunk). Like Jorah chooses to use his body to defend Dany in epi 3, like Jojen chose to get Bran to the cave even if he knew it would mean his death, like Meera time and time again chose to defend Bran, like Osha chose to protect Rickon, etc...

Hodor's mind and Bran's control of him is a snake eating its own tail. Bran controls Hodor's mind because he is too simple to wield a sword intelligently himself, but Hodor still tries to protect Bran when not controlled. This mind control though ends up being the cause why Willis lost his mind long before Bran was born. But without Willis having lost his mind, Bran would never have needed to control his mind to protect them on his escape and journey to the cave, because Willis would have chosen to do so himself.

Nowhere, did I say that Hodor's free will or his life is less important. Nowhere do I say he deserved to be a simpleton. What I am saying is that we get indications that Willis would have died a hero with his wits intact. But yes, it would have been better if Willis could have shown us that, of his own free will and with his wits intact.

It's like that scene of Dany and Jorah in epi 3. If you had your eye on Jorah, you saw he pushed Dany out of the way and threw himself before the wight's sword that somehow pierced his plate armor. If you instead focused on Dany in the same movement, it looked as if she pushed and threw Jorah in front of her as a shield against the wight, which was infuiriating to see instinctively... and yet even if Dany had indeed done such a thing to Jorah (she didn't, was just a trick of perception if you focused more on her), we would all recognize that Jorah would have wanted to die shielding her. And all we hypothetically would be angry over is Dany not giving Jorah the chance to do it by choice and voluntarily. The result though is the same.

That's some warped logic, let's force someone to do something because we think they would have done it anyway.

You are now arguing that it's okay to strip someone of their free will as long as the ends justifies the means, and we should base the moral implications of such actions based on 'indications' they would have done it anyway.

Look at the look of horror Hodor had on his face when he came out of his mind control right after Bran forced Hodor to kill someone. It's the episode where they are held captive.

Edited by longest night

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1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Were it blood sacrifices or executions of criminals? It's ignorant people like Andals who called it sacrifices. They installed "trial by combat" instead to determine who lives or who dies. Who would you rather have for judge if you were innocent and wrongly accused of a crime? Trial by combat, bribed witnesses or a greenseer?

Jojen paste is a theory as of yet unconfirmed. That said, Bran has eaten suspicous pork on his way to Craster's just to survive. Most people seem to miss that part, but then again eating wights is a way to both survive as well as be rid of it in the environment they're in. It is possible that tasting blood helps a greenseer to make his first true connection to the weirnet. The carves faces and eyes of a tree, are also only a teaching tool, but not a permanent requirement. It doesn't seem though that this is a continued necessity. 

There is something dark about greenseeing, coming with a price, but that doesn't make it evil. It's closest to "living nature" in the books, and nature can be warm sunrays on your face, flowers in the meadow, a cute baby in your arms. But it is also death, eat and be eaten.

Yes, Hodor is a victim of Bran's mistakes. Has he done anything like that ever since?

There is no utopia, but at least the Littlefingers and Varyses and Cerseis and potentially Danys won't be able to deceive society.

I get that people wish Dany would not have done what she did last epi and that they might try to point the finger at Bran for setting it in motion by telling Jon - that he is evil. Then again, Bran never informed anyone else before Jon told him to, and only to those Jon wished it too. He explicitly said - it is your choice. Jon had a right to know ASAP, because it's crucial information for his identity, to make choices for himself on the accurate data. Meanwhile the danger within Dany was always there and Jon was not objective about her (not saying he needed to be suspicious of her like Varys or Sansa), because he didn't know her. He displayed cognitive dissonance when it came to Dany all up to this episode. Just as much as it was Jon's choice to want to tell Sansa and Arya, it was Sansa's free will to tell it to Tyrion, and for Tyrion to tell Varys, for Varys to act upon it, etc. When a "truth" coming out makes someone else decide of their own volition to kill a million citizens, then the latter "cannot handle the truth" let alone "power". Truth and free will, that is what Bran used. I can't call that "evil". 

Did jon have a right to know? - YES

Should he have been told at that specific time? - NO 

Has this news snowballed out of control and caused chaos - YES

Is this Bran we are talking about or 3ER. Bran is no more, but we perceive him as Bran. The news of Jons ID has served no one but has resulted in 1000s of deaths,

If Bran was not part of the story, jon and dany would have been married and the realm united. No wall coming down, no varys death, etc.

Is Bran evil - No

Is the 3ER 'Evil' - YES or has perpertrated acts that have had no benefit to humanity.

And if Bran warged dany/drogon then they have the perfect weapon to extinguish humanity. The mad king could also have been an failed attempt - why is this important - we have no more flashbacks about this apart from the potential link to dany - and she may have been a convienient fall guy/girl.

I like the 3ER as the big bad more than what we currently have...tbh we have no idea what Bran/3ER has been doing and all complaining he has been do sweet fa

as for lightbringer….

Darkness lay over the world and a hero (city of ashes?/KL), Azor Ahai, was chosen to fight against it. To fight the darkness, Azor Ahai needed to forge a hero's sword. He labored for thirty days and thirty nights until it was done. However, when he went to temper it in water ( Fight against the NK?), the sword broke. He was not one to give up easily, so he started over. The second time he took fifty days and fifty nights to make the sword, even better than the first. To temper it this time, he captured a lion and drove the sword into its heart (Fight against Lannisters/KL), but once more the steel shattered. The third time, with a heavy heart, for he knew before hand what he must do to finish the blade, he worked for a hundred days and nights until it was finished. This time, he called for his wife, Nissa Nissa, and asked her to bare her breast (Dany). He drove his sword into her breast, her soul combining with the steel of the sword, creating Lightbringer, while her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon (fuck knows - arya?) .[1]

According to the Jade Compendium, since that day the sword became as warm as Nissa Nissa was and burned fiery hot during battles. Lightbringer was able to boil the blood of a monster when Azor Ahai thrust the sword through the belly of the beast. After steam poured from the beast's mouth and its eyes melted, its body burst into flame.[2

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Just now, longest night said:

That's some warped logic, let's force someone to do something because we think they would have done it anyway.

You are now arguing that it's okay to strip someone of their free will as long as the ends justifies the means, and we should base the moral implications of such actions based on 'indications' they would have done it anyway.

No, that's NOT what I said. In fact I used an example of another scene that could have been infuriating: if Dany had pushed and thrown Jorah in front of her as a shield against a wight. It is the same thing for Bran and Hodor. It is infuriating that he deprived him of his free will. I am NOT defending Bran's choice here.

I do recognize however that Willis would have chosen to do this himself, if he could have. Recognizing that doesn't make Bran "right" let alone even "gives him the right to decide for Hodor". But it sure still honors the man Hodor would have been out of his own free will.

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12 hours ago, Xemi said:

You guys are still in denial about Bran ruling? All the worst leaks have been confirmed so far, it's going to happen. Just enjoy watching the trainwreck and the subsequent shitstorm it will cause on the internet.

I learned from the RamSan plot back in season five that denial just makes it that much worse when it comes to fruition. Nothing on this show is too illogical to be true. 

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Sir Hedge of Hog said:

Did jon have a right to know? - YES

Should he have been told at that specific time? - NO 

Has this news snowballed out of control and caused chaos - YES

What it shows is that Dany does not have what it takes to deal with the truth EVER and always very liable to commit a massacre if circumstances put her under pressure. And ruling Westeros is an immense pressure. Ruling with that amount of power is LONELY. And there will always someone who will hate or disagree with a ruler. For example, even despite the loyalism that the Starks finally managed to gather by S8, house Glover still preferred to stay home. 

When the truth must be hidden, when one has to lie to a monarch to prevent them from massacring people, they shouldn't be in power. So, the sooner Jon knew the truth about himself, the better.

Edited by sweetsunray

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4 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I learned from the RamSan plot back in season five that denial just makes it that much worse when it comes to fruition. Nothing on this show is too illogical to be true. 

Rule of thumb when it comes to D&D: the more illogical/stupid it sounds, the more likely it is to be true. 

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

No, that's NOT what I said. In fact I used an example of another scene that could have been infuriating: if Dany had pushed and thrown Jorah in front of her as a shield against a wight. It is the same thing for Bran and Hodor. It is infuriating that he deprived him of his free will. I am NOT defending Bran's choice here.

I do recognize however that Willis would have chosen to do this himself, if he could have. Recognizing that doesn't make Bran "right" let alone even "gives him the right to decide for Hodor". But it sure still honors the man Hodor would have been out of his own free will.

What Bran did each time he warged Hodor was evil. Did that make Bran evil in itself? No. However, he was manipulated all through that time by the 3EC to get him to the tree. Yet then we need to conclude the 3EC is evil. He forced this evil upon Hodor. Bran didn't do it realizing what he was doing, that was an accident, but it was evil nonetheless. However, Bran doesn't exist anymore. As Meera said, Bran died in that tree. The 3EC currently resides in Bran's body, and the 3EC is a puppet or the mastermind behind the children of the forest.

They created one tool to wipe out mankind, why not a second to control mankind?

Edited by longest night

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