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Season 8: News, Spoilers And Leaks

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5 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

You say...this is not in the script, nothing supports it, plus nothing of the above are actions of madness. So please stop translating everything as Bran's reading.  

Bran said nothing about Dany to Sam which would hint he knows anything about her so he has to tell John to save him from a danger. It was actually the opposite. Bran pushed Jon with his letter to ask so urgently for Dany's help. 

Plus it's really funny to think that the script writers would  use Bran (which can not be proven by script) to warn John for Dany's madness, when he doesn't even know the NK can't pass the wall, when that's his main arc, the fight against others, and he spend so much time both as Bran and as a Raven on their side. 

Maybe the 3EC knew that him going through the Wall would let the Others pass. The dragon is a red herring, it certainly made his job easier getting his army through.

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

And if didn't know it, Bran still had no reason to keep this secret from Jon. None. I don't recall people arguing for Bran to keep his mouth shut about it before the start of s8. A majority of viewers believed it would sweeten the deal, claiming above all that it wouldn't be any issue whatsoever for either of them, and there would be this magic boatsexbaby, and happy ever after.

I don't think he knew anything and didn't have to keep it as a secret, he had to tell to John. 

Edited by Nightwish

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Just now, Nightwish said:

No he had no reason to keep it a secret, he had to tell to John

Yes, why? The 3EC told Sansa he had to tell Jon before he ever saw him. Why did he have to tell Jon, and why didn't he just tell him when he saw him? Why did he wait until the dead were ready to attack?

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1 minute ago, longest night said:

Yes, why? The 3EC told Sansa he had to tell Jon before he ever saw him. Why did he have to tell Jon, and why didn't he just tell him when he saw him? Why did he wait until the dead were ready to attack?

You mean Sam? Sorry got confused. 

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Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, Nightwish said:

You mean Sam? Sorry got confused. 

No, Sansa. Go look at the scene between the 3EC and Sansa. Sansa mentions Jon, and the 3EC says something like he needs to tell him something.

Edited by longest night

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

You say...this is not in the script, nothing supports it, plus nothing of the above are actions of madness. So please stop translating everything as Bran's reading.  

Bran said nothing about Dany to Sam which would hint he knows anything about her so he has to tell John to save him from a danger. It was actually the opposite. Bran pushed Jon with his letter to ask so urgently for Dany's help. 

Plus it's really funny to think that the script writers would  use Bran (which can not be proven by script) to warn John for Dany's madness, when he doesn't even know the NK can't pass the wall, when that's his main arc, the fight against others, and he spend so much time both as Bran and as a Raven on their side. 

Did I say that Bran wanted to warn Jon of Dany's madness? No, I didn't.

You brought up the argument about Bran's timing of making Sam tell Jon when he ended up telling him. I refer to stuff that Sam knows independently already from Bran anyway, and that Sam would have told this to Jon at some point without needing prodding of Bran.

Then you start to talk about the S7 finale, and Dany and Jon not even being there, and Bran concluding, "Jon needs to know".

So make up your mind, what precise moment you have issues with.

It seems entirely logical to me that Bran would want Jon to know that he is the true heir and not Dany at the end of S7, and that he urges Sam to tell it in the first epi of s8. Because Jon deserves to know before he makes any other life-altering decisions, after he already did the unwise thing of bending the knee to Dany because he fell in love. Regardless of what Dany's arc would be, Jon needs to know.

I also argue that it's even worse when Jon finds out later, after the battle against the dead. Because if Jon finds out after, while Sam and Bran sit on this secret for days already, and then tells Dany, then Dany actually would be in a position to be pissed at Jon, Bran and Sam - keeping crucial information from her, while she sacrifices her army for "Jon's war".

You argue that Bran can't know what Dany would become. And I agree. I don't think Bran can see the future completely. But he can see the past, anywhere. He doesn't need a heart tree nearby to see the past at a location. We don't need to see everything that Bran investigates in the past 24/7 do we?

As for Mel not being 3EC... besides the point. In the books she makes mistakes. Plenty of mistakes, and she lies (about the vision of the towers), and she regards the wall as a source of power to use for her own stuff. That Wall will fall, and I strongly think it'll be because Mel uses the Wall's magic to do some fire & blood magic with Shyreen, and the wall's magic will be weakened in that area, enough to allow for a breech. GRRM actually seems to have outlined the area already: the location where the staircase once stood. 

Edited by sweetsunray

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1 minute ago, longest night said:

No, Sansa. Go look at the scene between the 3EC and Sansa. Sansa mentions Jon, and the 3EC says something like he needs to tell him something.

Ah yes, I remembered it. I don't know suspense reasons? To hook up us for the big revelation and drug it as much as possible? I am not sure if the timing should indicate something or its just you know random script chunks.

 

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

Ah yes, I remembered it. I don't know suspense reasons? To hook up us for the big revelation and drug it as much as possible? I am not sure if the timing should indicate something or its just you know random script chunks.

 

Remember we saw him see some of what he was downloading as he fled the tree. Daenerys with her newly hatched Drogon, Drogon flying over King's Landing right before it burned it, the Mad King yelling "Burn them all" including Jaime shoving his sword through his back, and the wildfire exploding.

The visions the 3EC specifically showed him were Wylas/Hodor, and the Tower of Joy. 

Edited by longest night

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my 2p worth: evul all-controlling all-manipulating Bran won’t happen. It’s a non-starter, like ..Jonsa. Even for incompetent hacks such as the showrunners. 

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Just now, kissdbyfire said:

my 2p worth: evul all-controlling all-manipulating Bran won’t happen. It’s a non-starter, like ..Jonsa. Even for incompetent hacks such as the showrunners. 

Bran becomes king, we are discussing why and how.

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Posted (edited)

Am I the only one who thinks that everything is pointing at Sansa and Tyrion to win it all ?

Edited by Jô Maltese

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Did I say that Bran wanted to warn Jon of Dany's madness? No, I didn't.

You brought up the argument about Bran's timing of making Sam tell Jon when he ended up telling him. I refer to stuff that Sam knows independently already from Bran anyway, and that Sam would have told this to Jon at some point without needing prodding of Bran.

Then you start to talk about the S7 finale, and Dany and Jon not even being there, and Bran concluding, "Jon needs to know".

So make up your mind, what precise moment you have issues with.

It seems entirely logical to me that Bran would want Jon to know that he is the true heir and not Dany at the end of S7, and that he urges Sam to tell it in the first epi of s8. Because Jon deserves to know before he makes any other life-altering decisions, after he already did the unwise thing of bending the knee to Dany because he fell in love. Regardless of what Dany's arc would be, Jon needs to know.

I also argue that it's even worse when Jon finds out later, after the battle against the dead. Because if Jon finds out after, while Sam and Bran sit on this secret for days already, and then tells Dany, then Dany actually would be in a position to be pissed at Jon, Bran and Sam - keeping crucial information from her, while she sacrifices her army for "Jon's war".

You argue that Bran can't know what Dany would become. And I agree. I don't think Bran can see the future completely. But he can see the past, anywhere. He doesn't need a heart tree nearby to see the past at a location. We don't need to see everything that Bran investigates in the past 24/7 do we?

As for Mel not being 3EC... besides the point. In the books she makes mistakes. Plenty of mistakes, and she lies (about the vision of the towers), and she regards the wall as a source of power to use for her own stuff. That Wall will fall, and I strongly think it'll be because Mel uses the Wall's magic to do some fire & blood magic with Shyreen, and the wall's magic will be weakened in that area, enough to allow for a breech. GRRM actually seems to have outlined the area already: the location where the staircase once stood. 

 

Yes you did say that, not to me but to post that claimed that Bran could see her madness and you agreed on that. And you quoted me first.

With the whole part and timing - you see the first time Bran mentions to Sam we have to tell him is on the boat. No contact with Dany. 

Why does he need to be told before the battle? I feel that the script writers just wanted to prolong the revelation as a hook nothing there. 

A battle also means that Jon might not survive shouldn't he know? Plain simple. 

Well again as he can see the past he should have seen that NK had no means to break the wall. What hell was he doing in that cave? learning nothing? And I insist that here the script writers make him total ignorant of his main part. 

In the Books Mel is different being more stuff than we are fed here - also the wall is different on the book  - 

but the show runners inside the episode explained that: 

http://time.com/4918048/game-of-thrones-the-wall-viserion-ice-dragon/

“The Wall’s kept these things out for 8000 years. There’s no real reason that it can’t keep doing that unless something puts a hole in the Wall,” explained showrunner D.B. Weiss in HBO’s post-episode rundown. “There’s one thing on the board from the beginning that is now big enough to do that, and that’s a dragon…Winter is here and it’s all hitting the fan from all directions.”

So Bran here fails to do his main job and looks what Dany was doing at Essos? And even if he does what? If he had judged her as you say from the past he should be keeping John away. Bust mostly he should be keeping the dragons away from the wall. Failure!!!

 

Edited by Nightwish

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21 minutes ago, longest night said:

Remember we saw him see some of what he was downloading as he fled the tree. Daenerys with her newly hatched Drogon, Drogon flying over King's Landing right before it burned it, the Mad King yelling "Burn them all" including Jaime shoving his sword through his back, and the wildfire exploding.

The visions the 3EC specifically showed him were Wylas/Hodor, and the Tower of Joy. 

Yes, I remember his visions and they were all preparing him for a greater role but right now the script is such that I don't dare do theories. 

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Jô Maltese said:

Am I the only one who thinks that everything is pointing at Sansa and Tyrion to win it all ?

Leaks are already out, Bran will be King. This is the same leaker who's getting everything right since episode 3.

Edited by Leticia Stark

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1 minute ago, Nightwish said:

Yes, I remember his visions and they were all preparing him for a greater role but right now the script is such that I don't dare do theories. 

The greater role of taking over the world.

“If a twelve-year old has to conquer the world, then so be it.”

-GRRM

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, longest night said:

The greater role of taking over the world.

“If a twelve-year old has to conquer the world, then so be it.”

-GRRM

Because he is so competent in protecting the realm after all :rofl:

I don't know about the books but the show Bran is to cry with his state. Last time he warged took him 40 minutes to wake. You know what? Perhaps he is not that innocent after all, he plays the Game of Thrones and nobody knows it. :rofl:

Edited by Nightwish

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3 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

Yes you did say that, not to me but to post that claimed that Bran could see her madness and you agreed on that. And you quoted me first.

You mean my post of "this" in reply Balerion the Cat's, I presume. I agreed with the arguments that by the time before the battle (and not end of s7), Bran clearly had some intel on Dany to decide that Dany did not exactly filled him with confidence about her. He's impatiently waiting for their arrival, cuts the niceties of the welcome short and informs Dany what happened to her dragon and that the NK breached the Wall. Dany's response to this is deadpan. Nothing. Now I get that Dany trained herself to reveal little to no emotion to strangers. But next she frolicks with dragons and takes Jon on a dragon-flying date.

I can see Bran think, what's up with her. We all had this reaction of "who does that, when you learned a giant army just breached the wall?" It does come across as "Does she even have her feet on the ground?" And so while waiting for the arrival of his "Old friend" he can check out Dany's past hypothetically. On top of that both in the present and in the recent past, Bran can certainly ascertain that Jon is now falling in love with his aunt.

Everyone notices that Jon is defensive about Dany, and meanwhile Sam's hiding in the library, trying to avoid the subject. Sam finally comes out, grieving and angry over the death of his brother, and Bran doesn't want Sam to tardy it anymore.

15 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

Why does he need to be told before the battle? I feel that the script writers just wanted to prolong the revelation as a hook nothing there. 

Well, D&D had to cram everything asap at the moment. So, I agree with that on a meta-level.

16 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

A battle also means that Jon might not survive shouldn't he know? Plain simple. 

Agreed to that as well.

It just doesn't have to be the sole reason. Jon could die. If he doesn't die, he should know who he is, asap, because he deserves to know. It's his secret to decide on, and to weigh whether his love overcomes the kinship to Dany. And finally, that moment allows Jon just enough time for Jon to tell Dany too.

And for this D&D have a meta-writing reason. They clearly wanted to write Dany as making an independent choice in epi 5. Yes, they have her be certain that Jon betrays her to highlight her paranoia, but she has no real rational reason to accuse him of manipulating or betraying her. Sure, she's angry that he told Sansa, but she does at some level understands that it is his responsibility and choice and secret to tell or not tell to people. Now, imagine Jon told her during epi 4, after Dany lost Jorah, after she saw the Dothraki lights go out, etc... Would she have a reason to be spiteful towards Jon right there and then? She would. She's already suspicious of betrayal anyhow. By having Dany herself find out before epi 3, she cannot blame Jon for manipulating her to commit forces for his war, in order to weaken her military power. Her committing to the battle in epi 3, becomes something she goes through with, while knowing the truth. For the same reason they made sure that she traveled by herself, without Jon to Dragonstone, and the loss of Rhaegal and Missandei is not something she can ever pin on Jon. He had no part at all in advizing her on Dragonstone to negotiate surrender with Cersei one last time.

They wrote the timing of the reveal for making Dany and Dany alone for her decision to burn the KL citizens. On the one hand they needed her to know, to make her paranoia peak, but they simultaneously wanted Jon to be as honorable as he could be about it, so that Dany doesn't have real cause to execute him along with Varys. And thus Dany had to know before the battle. So, Jon had to learn of it before the battle. And thus Bran had to urge Sam, and that just as Sam made his mind up about her being a sociopath with no remorse in the way she tells him about the death of his father and his brother.

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25 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

Because he is so competent in protecting the realm after all :rofl:

I don't know about the books but the show Bran is to cry with his state. Last time he warged took him 40 minutes to wake. You know what? Perhaps he is not that innocent after all, he plays the Game of Thrones and nobody knows it. :rofl:

The only motive we get from the 3EC is self-preservation. The question is where does that self-preservation extend from. The vast majority of the greenseers, and thus the old gods are children of the forest. The same ones that the Pact was made for men to stop cutting down the weirwoods. Yet again the Andals invaded later and started cutting them down again. From Bran's point of view we have the 3EC telling us the old way is superior to the new way. 

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Posted (edited)

I really think Bran has no plan. What he has learned has turned him into a sort of blank state. He helped destroy the NK because the NK sought to destroy him, but like he told Tyrion he has no wants anymore, that he should not be envied, that he mostly lives in the past now.

I do think maybe this is something GRRM would want to explore: if someone had quasi-god-like omniscience, would they lose their desire to live?

Bran is not really Bran anymore, so he might have gained knowledge, but he lost himself as a person. His lack of desires prevented him from stopping Dany. He needs a reason to live for the future. Tyrion could make him see that.

Edited by NonoNono

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