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Season 8: News, Spoilers And Leaks

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1 hour ago, Ellimental said:

IMO the grimmest part of those leaks is Jon rejoining the Night's Watch (do they even still exist? what's their new purpose?) and Bran as King. Jon being sent off into exile is a pretty crap ending for such an important character, who has done and given so much. That's pretty depressing, tbh. Bran on the throne is pure WTF. I don't think anyone watched the show hoping he'd be the one to win the Game of Thrones, tbh.

I think it's poetic, to be honest. We knew there was a strong chance he wouldn't end up on the throne at the end; GRRM doesn't do fairy-tale endings with age-old tropes like "the rightful heir returns".

Jon's happiest moments were with Ygritte north of the wall, particularly in the cave. I could see him turning his back on the game of thrones, which he despises, and going back beyond the wall where things are simple and people are free. He's lucky he's one of the few characters getting a happy ending (if the leaks are true).

The only thing I don't get is why the hell there'd still be a Night's Watch? I hope there is an explanation for that, but D+D's general approach seems to be "meh, we'll just do whatever, and let the fans fill in the blanks themselves".

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Darryk said:

I think it's poetic, to be honest. We knew there was a strong chance he wouldn't end up on the throne at the end; GRRM doesn't do fairy-tale endings with age-old tropes like "the rightful heir returns".

Jon's happiest moments were with Ygritte north of the wall, particularly in the cave. I could see him turning his back on the game of thrones, which he despises, and going back beyond the wall where things are simple and people are free. He's lucky he's one of the few characters getting a happy ending (if the leaks are true).

The only thing I don't get is why the hell there'd still be a Night's Watch? I hope there is an explanation for that, but D+D's general approach seems to be "meh, we'll just do whatever, and let the fans fill in the blanks themselves".

 

 

Not even the wildlings like to live north of the wall… It is awful! I have no idea where the notion that living in the true north is good...

And going back to the Wall is going back to where his story began. It is where the worst people in westeros go. And now there is nothing to do there...

Both scenarios are awful!

 

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8 minutes ago, divica said:

Not even the wildlings like to live north of the wall… It is awful! I have no idea where the notion that living in the true north is good...

And going back to the Wall is going back to where his story began. It is where the worst people in westeros go. And now there is nothing to do there...

Both scenarios are awful!

 

It was awful only because of the white walkers though, which are now (supposedly) gone.

There's a reason the Wildlings refer to people south of the wall as "kneelers" and call themselves the "free folk"

 

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25 minutes ago, Darryk said:

Interesting, can you present any examples?

I agree with this, they clearly don't have much interest in his story, and would have killed him off ages ago if GRRM hadn't given them an important reason to keep him around.

 
Stannis touched the Painted Table. "Look at it, onion knight. My realm, by rights. My Westeros." He swept a hand across it. "This talk of Seven Kingdoms is a folly. Aegon saw that three hundred years ago when he stood where we are standing. They painted this table at his command. Rivers and bays they painted, hills and mountains, castles and cities and market towns, lakes and swamps and forests . . . but no borders. It is all one. One realm, for one king to rule alone."
 
"One king," agreed Davos. "One king means peace."

 

"Dragons and darker things," said Leo. "The grey sheep have closed their eyes, but the mastiff sees the truth. Old powers waken. Shadows stir. An age of wonder and terror will soon be upon us, an age for gods and heroes.-AFFC

 

"One realm, one god, one king!" cried Lady Melisandre.

 
The queen's men took up the cry, beating the butts of their spears against their shields. "One realm, one god, one king! ...ONE REALM, ONE GOD, ONE KING!"- ADWD
 
 
"The bleeding star bespoke the end," he said to Aeron. "These are the last days, when the world shall be broken and remade. A new god shall be born from the graves and charnel pits."-TWOW
 
” Then Euron lifted a great horn to his lips and blew, and dragons and krakens and sphinxes came at his command and bowed before him. “Kneel, brother,” the Crow’s Eye commanded. “I am your king, I am your god. Worship me, and I will raise you up to be my priest.”
 
“Never. No godless man may sit the Seastone Chair!”

“Why would I want that hard black rock? Brother, look again and see where I am seated.”

Aeron Damphair looked. The mound of skulls was gone. Now it was metal underneath the Crow’s Eye: a great, tall, twisted seat of razor sharp iron, barbs and blades and broken swords, all dripping blood.

Impaled upon the longer spikes were the bodies of the gods. The Maiden was there and the Father and the Mother, the Warrior and Crone and Smith … even the Stranger. They hung side by side with all manner of queer foreign gods: the Great Shepherd and the Black Goat, three-headed Trios and the Pale Child Bakkalon, the Lord of Light and the butterfly god of Naath.

And there, swollen and green, half-devoured by crabs, the Drowned God festered with the rest, seawater still dripping from his hair.- TWOW

 

GRRM also writes backwards and there are things in TWOIAF and Fire and Blood Volume 1 that foreshadow the ending of the series:

In the beginning, the priestly scribes of Yin declare, all the land between the Bones and the freezing desert called the Grey Waste, from the Shivering Sea to the Jade Sea (including even the great and holy isle of Leng), formed a single realm ruled by the God-on-Earth, the only begotten son of the Lion of Night and MaidenMade-of-Light, who traveled about his domains in a palanquin carved from a single pearl and carried by a hundred queens, his wives. For ten thousand years the Great Empire of the Dawn flourished in peace and plenty under the God-on-Earth, until at last he ascended to the stars to join his forebears.-TWOIAF

 

And then there's 11 year old Aegon called the Broken ascending the throne with a disfigured Lannister as Hand at the end of the Dance with Dragons. Both Aegon and Tyland were on opposite sides too.
 

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Just now, bloodsteel bitterraven said:

Yeah I don't get why Jon fans are so upset.  He seems to be getting the happiest ending of all the characters.

Probably because he has done f*ck all this season, and that his dialogue has been reduced to two lines repeated ad nauseum ("She's my Queen" / "I don't want it").

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Just now, Darryk said:

It was awful only because of the white walkers though, which are now (supposedly) gone.

There's a reason the Wildlings refer to people south of the wall as "kneelers" and call themselves the "free folk"

 

There is a reason wildlings are trying to go south of the Wall for thousands of years. They hate living in the north. They want to live freely but in a better place. The ww are a recent threat...

And in the books it looks highly improbable that they will move north again. First because jon is integrating them in the north, then because the living conditions are much better and finally because if the ww aren t completly defeated they certainly won t go back!

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8 minutes ago, bloodsteel bitterraven said:

Yeah I don't get why Jon fans are so upset.  He seems to be getting the happiest ending of all the characters.

 

3 minutes ago, HairGrowsBack said:

Probably because he has done f*ck all this season, and that his dialogue has been reduced to two lines repeated ad nauseum ("She's my Queen" / "I don't want it").

Because after his intire story he will be exiled to live in an awfull place away from his whole familly? Because he will kill the woman he loves and froze to death in some awfull place? Because it is depressing and sad?

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3 minutes ago, divica said:

Because after his intire story he will be exiled to live in an awfull place away from his whole familly? Because he will kill the woman he loves and froze to death in some awfull place? Because it is depressing and sad?

Also this.

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, divica said:

Not even the wildlings like to live north of the wall… It is awful! I have no idea where the notion that living in the true north is good...

And going back to the Wall is going back to where his story began. It is where the worst people in westeros go. And now there is nothing to do there...

Both scenarios are awful!

 

You're projecting yourself onto a character.

A lot people in rl choose to live in cold and rural climates without any Wall to force them to stay. The wildlings don't like the rules that come with living further south. You know, FREEfolk. "Kneelers" is an insult. Jon gets fed up with politics BS and the Wildling life doesn't sound so bad. He was already partial to it.

And Jon himself said that's where he'd prefer to be. 

23 minutes ago, bloodsteel bitterraven said:

Yeah I don't get why Jon fans are so upset.  He seems to be getting the happiest ending of all the characters.

A lot of the fandom seem to live through their favorite characters. The poster likes the idea of being king/queen thus they project that as the happiest ending for their character despite the character being very clear about not wanting that. It's one of the weirdest things on the forum. The books and show have been consistent that the IT and KL is the last place you go if you want a happy life. 

Edited by Lollygag

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2 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

You're projecting yourself onto a character.

A lot people in rl choose to live in cold and rural climates without any Wall to force them to stay. The wildlings don't like the rules that come with living further south. You know, FREEfolk. "Kneelers" is an insult. Jon gets fed up with politics BS and the Wildling life doesn't sound so bad. He was already partial to it.

And Jon himself said that's where he'd prefer to be. 

I am not projecting anything. The wildlings story is basically about them wanting to move south and the NW not letting them.

They want to live freely, just not in a frozen wasteland!

If you told me that jon went to the gift lead the wildlings integration into the the 7kingdoms in peace and without losing who they were at least it would make sense...

And jon saying he wanted to go north with them is another thing that doesn t make sense. The first time he spent time with the wildlings he lied to them and most of them hated him. Then in hardhome they hated him… The only wildlings that treated jon well were ygritte and tormund and 1 of them is dead… Hell, given that he was a crow there are wildlings that probably still hate him...

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25 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

 I am your king, I am your god.

Impaled upon the longer spikes were the bodies of the gods. The Maiden was there and the Father and the Mother, the Warrior and Crone and Smith … even the Stranger. They hung side by side with all manner of queer foreign gods: the Great Shepherd and the Black Goat, three-headed Trios and the Pale Child Bakkalon, the Lord of Light and the butterfly god of Naath.

And there, swollen and green, half-devoured by crabs, the Drowned God festered with the rest, seawater still dripping from his hair. TWOW

formed a single realm ruled by the God-on-Earth, the only begotten son of the Lion of Night and MaidenMade-of-Light.

For ten thousand years the Great Empire of the Dawn flourished in peace and plenty under the God-on-Earth, until at last he ascended to the stars to join his forebears. -TWOIAF

Fully agree. The books foreshadow the existence of gods and the expectation of another Golden Age.

But the son of the Lion of Night and MaidenMade-of-Light (Ice and Fire), the prince promised, is Jon, not Bran.
Jon is already dead may not die (or age) again. And bring prosperity for an age long. Not the short span life of a Greenseer ... who can't even have an heir.

But what will D&D choose?

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Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, divica said:

There is a reason wildlings are trying to go south of the Wall for thousands of years. They hate living in the north. They want to live freely but in a better place. The ww are a recent threat...

And in the books it looks highly improbable that they will move north again. First because jon is integrating them in the north, then because the living conditions are much better and finally because if the ww aren t completly defeated they certainly won t go back!

That's because they're afraid of the NK and his army.  As Tormund said, they prefer the freedom of the North, the real North.  And Jon has the real North in him according to Tormund.

The real question is, with no NK, and the wildlings being integrated, what the eff is the point of a NW?

 

Edited by bloodsteel bitterraven

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Just now, divica said:

I am not projecting anything. The wildlings story is basically about them wanting to move south and the NW not letting them.

They want to live freely, just not in a frozen wasteland!

If you told me that jon went to the gift lead the wildlings integration into the the 7kingdoms in peace and without losing who they were at least it would make sense...

And jon saying he wanted to go north with them is another thing that doesn t make sense. The first time he spent time with the wildlings he lied to them and most of them hated him. Then in hardhome they hated him… The only wildlings that treated jon well were ygritte and tormund and 1 of them is dead… Hell, given that he was a crow there are wildlings that probably still hate him...

They raid the south and then go back home. If you rewind that clip in the above post, Tormund says they'd rather go home. 

And whenever Starks go south, awful things happen to them. I'd go north over south any day. And that whole crow thing is kinda irrelevant after Jon let them through the Wall, tried to save them at Hardhome and now he and Sansa are offering them a home in the North. 

And just because you don't agree doesn't mean it doesn't make sense. A lot of people both in Westeros and rl don't see it like you do. Regardless, Jon's been very clear about what he wants. 

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17 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Fully agree. The books foreshadow the existence of gods and the expectation of another Golden Age.

But the son of the Lion of Night and MaidenMade-of-Light (Ice and Fire), the prince promised, is Jon, not Bran.
Jon is already dead may not die (or age) again. And bring prosperity for an age long. Not the short span life of a Greenseer ... who can't even have an heir.

But what will D&D choose?

Whatever GRRM has told them. 

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Posted (edited)

The more I think about it, the more I do warm to it. And yes, it's definitely better than Jon being dead and/or shackled to Dany for all eternity. If he does restart the Night's Watch, I daresay it will be a totally different thing to what came before it. Jon can end the enmity between the freefolk and the southerners. Perhaps, even, he could pave the way for proper trade relations between the far north and their southerly neighbours? And I don't think Jon would be truly exiled, either. He will still be free to visit Winterfell and check in on Sansa etc.

 

I think that was what made me feel a little sad: the implication that he'd never see his home or his family again.

Edited by Ellimental

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Fully agree. The books foreshadow the existence of gods and the expectation of another Golden Age.

But the son of the Lion of Night and MaidenMade-of-Light (Ice and Fire), the prince promised, is Jon, not Bran.
Jon is already dead may not die (or age) again. And bring prosperity for an age long. Not the short span life of a Greenseer ... who can't even have an heir.

But what will D&D choose?

Jon's a red herring. It's Bran. He's first character that GRRM created, he's the beginning POV,  he's on the path to transcending humanity and he's king of Westeros at the end.  Also, he's the last son of Ned Stark.

 

The show would put Jon on the throne if it was GRRM's plan. I understand the pushback. Fans don't like Bran but they like Jon because he's the typical escapist hero.  Handsome, brooding, good swordsman, gets the girl and the hidden son of the rightful king. But Jon and Daenerys are purposefully there so you don't look at Bran.

Also Bran wouldn't have a short lifespan. 

1) Bloodraven is 125 years old despite being a greenseer.

2) The Three Eyed Raven on the show is over 1,000 years old and had to be killed.

3) And Bran can begin a second life as another human being considering his considerable power. All he needs to do is find a greenseer potential and snatch his body when he dies.

4)  Bran doesn't need an heir. He'll just eternally be king until he decides to not be.

5) Bran's heirs can be the descendants of Sansa if he can't have kids.

Edited by Lord_Ravenstone

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1 minute ago, Ellimental said:

The more I think about it, the more I do warm to it. And yes, it's definitely better than Jon being dead and/or shackled to Dany for all eternity. If he does restart the Night's Watch, I daresay it will be a totally different thing to what came before it. Jon can end the enmity between the freefolk and the southerners. Perhaps, even, he could pave the way for proper trade relations between the far north and their southerly neighbours? And I don't think Jon would be truly exiled, either. He will still be free to visit Winterfell and check in on Sansa etc.

 

I think that was what made me feel a little sad: the implication that he'd never see his home or his family again.

I mean Benjen used to visit Winterfell. He was there at the beginning of the story.

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1 minute ago, Ellimental said:

The more I think about it, the more I do warm to it. And yes, it's definitely better than Jon being dead and/or shackled to Dany for all eternity. If he does restart the Night's Watch, I daresay it will be a totally different thing to what came before it. Jon can end the enmity between the freefolk and the southerners. Perhaps, even, he could pave the way for proper trade relations between the far north and their southerly neighbours? And I don't think Jon would be truly exiled, either. He will still be free to visit Winterfell and check in on Sansa etc.

 

I think that was what made me feel a little sad: the implication that he'd never see his home or his family again.

That's true.  Benjen, Yoren, and Alliser Thorne had all gone south at some point on various missions.

But I still don't understand why we need a Night's Watch, and I'm afraid D&D won't give a decent explanation.

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