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Season 8: News, Spoilers And Leaks

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3 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

They raid the south and then go back home. If you rewind that clip in the above post, Tormund says they'd rather go home. 

So you are saying that jon wants to live with ravers and rapists?

Or the wildlings decided to change completly? Because if they don t want to steal to sruvive they need to live in a better place and learn to craft their own shit...

8 minutes ago, bloodsteel bitterraven said:

That's because they're afraid of the NK and his army.  As Tormund said, they prefer the freedom of the North, the real North.  And Jon has the real North in him according to Tormund.

The conflict between the NW and the wildlings has existed for thousands of years because they don t want to stay in the north. They want to live their lifestyle but in the south...

The NK is just a recent threat that forced them to unite and leave for the south as fast as possible…

 

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1 minute ago, bloodsteel bitterraven said:

That's true.  Benjen, Yoren, and Alliser Thorne had all gone south at some point on various missions.

But I still don't understand why we need a Night's Watch, and I'm afraid D&D won't give a decent explanation.

 

Yes, it was the statement that Jon is "exiled" as punishment for killing Dany that made it feel like he was being tossed out of the realm, never to return. But that might not be the case, especially if he just chooses to be with the freefolk - which is entirely reasonable. 

As for the Night's Watch - I'm guessing the threat will never truly be gone? I mean, they all thought the Others were a fantasy for hundreds (possibly thousands?)  of years. Now they don't want to let their guard down and make the same mistake of complacency? Realistically, though, I think you're probably right and we won't get a full explanation of that. 

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There is no NW anymore, not really, and I doubt they will fix that hole in the wall... so in a way sending Jon to the NW as "punishment" is not really a punishment, not for Jon, not for those who tell him to. It's a "free pass" for him to lead a life away from politics, but still be near his family's home and just live the life he wants, ranging, from the New Gift to the Lands of Always Winter. Only those who may want to kill him  (like Greyworm) for ending Dany's life won't realize it's not truly a punishment, but that Jon is actually being given a "gift".

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8 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

1) Bloodraven is 125 years old despite being a greenseer.

2) The Three Eyed Raven on the show is over 1,000 years old and had to be killed.

BR is already dead, or live only by the tree:. I'm not even sure Bran can leave the cave (ADWD):

Quote

I wore many names when I was quick

“Most of him has gone into the tree,” explained the singer Meera called Leaf. “He has lived beyond his mortal span, and yet he lingers.

The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance. But once inside the wood they linger long indeed.

 

12 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

3) And Bran can begin a second life as another human being considering his considerable power. All he needs to do is find a greenseer potential and snatch his body when he dies.

4)  Bran doesn't need an heir. He'll just eternally be king until he decides to not be.

5) Bran's heirs can be the descendants of Sansa if he can't have kids.

Possible indeed. A "Body Snatcher" preying on other skin changers. Awful.

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On 4/14/2019 at 3:44 AM, Erick Storm said:

It's just too broad a question. 

Yeah, Dorne sucked and the Sandsnakes actresses were terrible. D&D know it and they redeemed themselves with one line: "let the grown women speak". At least they got the cruellest death.

One of them got a cruel death. The rest were pretty normal for the show. 

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1 minute ago, BalerionTheCat said:

BR is already dead, or live only by the tree:. I'm not even sure Bran can leave the cave (ADWD):

Possible indeed. A "Body Snatcher" preying on other skin changers. Awful.

Not sure it's evil imo, but at the cave where BR's at, there's one bear skull and a wolf skull in the alcoves of weirwood thrones of long dead greenseers, aside from giants, humans and CotF. It seems to me that two greenseers used their second life in a wolf or bear to hook up to the weirwoodnet even in their second life. We don't know the circumstances of that, but my guess is that their numbers might have dwindled so much that those greenseers chose to have their second life animal continue to try and help out with something.

But I agree, I think the "weirnet" and "3EC is evul!!" idea is unwarranted and not dissimilar to the First Men who freaked out over faces with eyes on weirwoods and decided to hack them down, when they first arrived at Westeros, while a weirwood tree is the equivalent of the Library of Alexandria.

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9 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance. But once inside the wood they linger long indeed.

Great quote. It clearly points to bran fusing with a weirwood tree in the future...

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10 minutes ago, divica said:

So you are saying that jon wants to live with ravers and rapists?

Or the wildlings decided to change completly? Because if they don t want to steal to sruvive they need to live in a better place and learn to craft their own shit...

I'M NOT SAYING EITHER OF THOSE THINGS. JON AND TORMUND SAID THEM IN THE CLIP BELOW. 

WATCH IT THIS TIME ALREADY. 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Not sure it's evil imo, but at the cave where BR's at, there's one bear skull and a wolf skull in the alcoves of weirwood thrones of long dead greenseers, aside from giants, humans and CotF. It seems to me that two greenseers used their second life in a wolf or bear to hook up to the weirwoodnet even in their second life. We don't know the circumstances of that, but my guess is that their numbers might have dwindled so much that those greenseers chose to have their second life animal continue to try and help out with something.

But I agree, I think the "weirnet" and "3EC is evul!!" idea is unwarranted and not dissimilar to the First Men who freaked out over faces with eyes on weirwoods and decided to hack them down, when they first arrived at Westeros, while a weirwood tree is the equivalent of the Library of Alexandria.

I think we will see they are as evil as the r'hllor priests. If on one side one religion burns people alive to grant some kind of power the other sacrifices them to weirwoods… Basically that there is a cost for the "old gods" to do some magic… It would even be interesting seeing jon and bran mirroing stannis and mel and see what jon is willing to do for the old gods...

6 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I'M NOT SAYING EITHER OF THOSE THINGS. JON AND TORMUND SAID THEM IN THE CLIP BELOW. 

WATCH IT THIS TIME ALREADY. 

 

 

You are saying it is a good ending and that it makes sense… which you seem to not agree now?

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3 hours ago, Nictarion said:

To what end? I’m disappointed myself, but that kind of stuff is ridiculous. 

How about the fact that 500k people have never before directly stated that they think the writers of a show are absolute shit. Furthermore, how about that fact that no company has ever continued with a plan to have two writers handle person the most beloved universe (Star Wars) of all time after 500,000 people have expressed bitterness towards those writers? 

Hell, if it can save Star Wars from the sticky and grasping fingers of D&D then I'd call that a big win.

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, divica said:

You are saying it is a good ending and that it makes sense… which you seem to not agree now?

WHAT?

Jon says what he wants and it's to go North. Holy cow, but do you need that in crayon or something because I don't know how it gets any clearer than this clip. 

Edited by Lollygag

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If Bran becomes king then I'm pretty confident that this is what will happen in the books as well (in the unlikely event that the book series is ever completed) except I'd expect Martin to do an infinitely better job at setting it up. I'd also say that the Ds sidelining of Bran was deliberate. For them, making Bran into little more than an extra will result in a bigger shock when he becomes king and that is all they ever care about. In fact they probably think that totally blindsiding the audience is actually great writing. 

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34 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

There is no NW anymore, not really, and I doubt they will fix that hole in the wall... so in a way sending Jon to the NW as "punishment" is not really a punishment, not for Jon, not for those who tell him to. It's a "free pass" for him to lead a life away from politics, but still be near his family's home and just live the life he wants, ranging, from the New Gift to the Lands of Always Winter. Only those who may want to kill him  (like Greyworm) for ending Dany's life won't realize it's not truly a punishment, but that Jon is actually being given a "gift".

Might even explain Benjen's joining the Watch--after all that happened to his family, he wanted an out and a pass.

Jon's even more "out"--free to range north.

I'm wondering if it's also a way to get away from "knowledge"--how much does Bran tell him? Has Bran told the truth or manipulated things? If there are secrets, fleeing North is a really Stark-ish move.

Like Ned after the Rebellion and Lyanna's Death.

So, as you say, a gift.

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On 5/14/2019 at 4:20 AM, Maia said:

IMHO, that would be just him returning to his original book plot, after taking over Stannis's and part of FAegon's arcs in the show  B). I doubt that he ever leaves NW or engages in the KITN redux plot in the books, should they ever come out. His arc is very much about the Others, but since the show chose to marginalize them in favor of politics, he had to be given political plots of other characters.

And I doubt that there is going to be any certainty of the Others/WWs being truly gone forever, either in the series or in the show. In the show Craster gave 99 sons to WWs, but we have only ever seen a dozen of them. And the NK didn't die after those who made _him_ did, not to mention that such a cheap, but complete victory would irretrievably damage the chances of the prequel show gaining any traction. So, I fully expect to see a "monster egg" shot in the end  as far as they are concerned.

Sorry for the delay--but had to respond to absolutely agree.

They've absolutely melded Jon with fAegon and Stannis--and I think they've melded Dany with Val.

But the idea that Jon stays in the north--that is very, very workable, I think.

I've been thinking one of the reasons they "animated" the NK was to not just give the Westerosi someone to kill, but to have a reason for Dany to go north.

As for the Others' being gone forever--we need to know why they came back--not sure the book will address it at all. They've dropped so much stuff off of narrative cliffs, who knows what's happening?

I'm with @Voice on thinking that the Others came back when a Stark (NK descendant) killed the Sword of the Morning (Day's King). But that the Targs were a big part of starting that process.

Did the children know Dany was coming, and let the Others and the Targs "cleanse" Westeros? Finally reuniting the people with the land? Not sure.

Pretty sure the show won't cover it--but if any of the above holds, Westeros always needs to worry about the next time the land gets broken/burned. And the Others will return--Wall or no Wall.

 

On 5/14/2019 at 4:20 AM, Maia said:

I have long thought that the previous Long Night wasn't defeated by people in any real sense - they just managed to survive it and maybe stopped the Others from making it worse somehow. And, of course, the greatest curse of all are the humans themselves...

Gotta be--the seasons being so out of wack has to mean they never "solved" it--I think it's because they misused power, but that's for my "Day's King" thread, not the shown forum.

On 5/14/2019 at 4:20 AM, Maia said:

Yep. He didn't even set his sword on fire with his blood like Beric did. But then again, the show tries hard to avoid mystical and magical elements, which should be very prominent in his book plot.

Yes--I'm thinking the only purpose his being a Targ achieved was to drive Dany's paranoia. Thus making sure a Targ showed her dragon-self and thus got killed.

Which would fit the silliness of the show.

But also makes me fear they may reveal that Bran lied--or was tricked--and only told that vision to manipulate Jon and Dany. Would be really crappy--but would fit with this show.

Sadly.

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Man, I wanted to see Val super badly. She sounded like the sexiest character in the series to me.

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4 hours ago, Elaena Targaryen said:

I listened to this podcast with Bryan Cogman because he was supposed to discuss what Bran and Tyrion talked about (around 1 hr 17) but it was his response to a question about Bran (around 1:16:33) that was interesting considering the leaks. If you want to listen to his whole interview it starts around the 45 min mark.

BC was asked if we can believe what Bran said in e3 about the NK, about his mission, about the 3ER, about everything and what Bran is saying is true, right? BC pauses then says with humor - well Bran has said what he said and that's all I'll say. 

It may be nothing but I didn't expect the evasive reply since nothing else has came up connected to this in the show. If the NK and the 3ER's main purpose are done why can't we have answers?

If only D&D&C were as good at writing as they are at trolling. :D

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

But the idea that Jon stays in the north--that is very, very workable, I think.

The thing is that the north looks to be very diferent in the books.

First, jon is working towards integrating the wildlings into the north by having one of them marrying alys, giving them lands in the gift and some of them joining the NW...

Then with all the death in the north and it being winter there is a lot of free space in the north and it shouldn t be possible to survive north of the Wall… Besides the fact that if they go noth they will return to their reaving and raping ways after a time...

If the ww aren t compleltly eliminated then they certainly won t go back north… It would be idiotic...

If jon remains in the north he will either remain in the NW (because the others aren t completly defeated) or to lead the north or be in a leading position to unify the several factions that remain there after the war (northmen (that seem pretty divided), wildlings and maybe even iron born). 

And given how the NW is a huge failure I don t see a reason to restart it… After enough time passes it would become the decadent thing it is in the beguining of the show/books. IT would feel like the story was pointless if things don t change...

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Posted (edited)

Everybody is discussing Bran having no claim... Who besides Jon, Dany and Gendry actually have claims? To my knowledge, no one at all.

Gendry's claim is entirely dependent on Dany's ability to legitimize and then only through his Baratheon blood. Dany and Jon have claims through Targ blood. Furthermore, the only people who know about Gendry's claim must a) accept that Dany had authority to legitimize and b) know about it and be willing to fight for it. If you disavow Dany because of "madness" (or even gigantic atrocities) then you have to ask when she ceased to have authority and when her legitimacy ceased (did it ever exist, did KL erase it?) Plus, Gendry doesn't want it. From the leaks he is the only person with a claim and that is a pretty crappy claim. He's from the family of usurping house who was legitimized by the house they usurped? Not exactly going to inspire loyalty even if the lords are able to look past his peasant upbringing. Worth noting is that most legitimized bastards were not mere peasants turned legitimate but instead were often quite privileged and educated because the lord knew of the source of their bastardy and treated them accordingly.

But there is literally no one else with a claim to the throne as the two previous ruling families (Baratheon and Targ) are set to be completely eliminated?

That, to me, is a reasonable impetus to call a large council because there is no default option. Bran's claim is just as good as anyone else's (excusing Dany, Jon and Gendry) which is to say that his claim is non-existent. Not sure how we can get upset about the lack of a claim when we'd need an army of Maesters to try to find cousins of cousins to try to deduce a legit claim.

Edited by Demetri

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3 minutes ago, Demetri said:

Everybody is discussing Bran having no claim... Who besides Jon, Dany and Gendry actually have claims? To my knowledge, no one at all.

Gendry's claim is entirely dependent on Dany's ability to legitimize and then only through his Baratheon blood. Dany and Jon have claims through Targ blood. Furthermore, the only people who know about Gendry's claim must a) accept that Dany had authority to legitimize and b) know about it and be willing to fight for it. If you disavow Dany because of "madness" (or even gigantic atrocities) then you have to ask when she ceased to have authority and when her legitimacy ceased (did it ever exist, did KL erase it?) Plus, Gendry doesn't want it. From the leaks he is the only person with a claim and that is a pretty crappy claim. He's from the family of usurping house who was legitimized by the house they usurped? Not exactly going to inspire loyalty even if the lords are able to look past his peasant upbringing. Worth noting is that most legitimized bastards were not mere peasants turned legitimate but instead were often quite privileged and educated because the lord knew of the source of their bastardy and treated them accordingly.

But there is literally no one else with a claim to the throne as the two previous ruling families (Baratheon and Targ) are set to be completely eliminated?

That, to me, is a reasonable impetus to call a large council because there is no default option. Bran's claim is just as good as anyone else's (excusing Dany, Jon and Gendry) which is to say that his claim is non-existent. Not sure how we can get upset about the lack of a claim when we'd need an army of Maesters to try to find cousin's of cousin's to try to deduce a legit claim.

Because if nobody has a claim then either we don t have anyone in the IT because the other regions won t accept it or someone conquers the other kingdoms… 

The other lords simply accepting bran that is a cripple and might not be able to have kids, has no emoticons, has no claim, no charisma, only has the support of 1 or 2 regions, has weird creepy powers, etc... as their king is crazy...

 

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