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Season 8: News, Spoilers And Leaks

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11 hours ago, Lollygag said:

In this article, GRRM said he doesn't know the ending yet himself thus he couldn't possibly tell it to D&D. And D&D are also quoted as saying the endings may not be the same. And I'll add that just because GRRM told them something doesn't mean D&D will go along with that. GRRM has been overridden before with Stoneheart, etc.

http://time.com/3994289/george-rr-martin-game-of-thrones-song-of-fire-and-ice-ending/

That said, I've seen a lot of contradictions, so we won't know how the show ending compares to the books unless the book ending is actually written (not likely) or unless GRRM comes out and makes a very clear public announcement confirming that the show ending should be seen as the book ending as well.

 

“I haven’t written the ending yet,” he said. “I’ve said before that the tone of the ending that I’m going for is bittersweet. I mean, it’s no secret that Tolkien has been a huge influence on me, and I love the way he ended Lord of the Rings. It ends with a victory, but it’s a bittersweet victory…All I can say is that’s the kind of tone I will be aiming for. Whether I achieve if or not, that will be up to people like you and my readers to judge.”

 

“We’ve had a lot of conversations with George, and he makes a lot of stuff up as he’s writing it,” Benioff told Variety. “Even while we talk to him about the ending, it doesn’t mean that that ending that he has currently conceived is going to be the ending when he eventually writes it.”

 

Thanks. I was somehow under the impression that he had told them the ending as it stood when the show was made, with the purpose of the tv show - and only the tv show - finishing the series in case something happened to him or something. But I just find it hard to believe that the show is completely different than the books; maybe from the books we'll have, but not from the books as they were planned before the show. I hate the fact Martin, after 20 years of writing this, still doesn't know how it ends and doesn't seem to care. I'd like to believe he once had a very good ideia of the plot and it was just post-Dance that he decided to go some other way. But this could all be worthless at the end, since I agree that it's very unlikely we'll see the last book. And to be /very/  honest, a part of me really loves the fact the show will have the last laugh, so to speak.

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1 hour ago, Lady Anna said:

Thanks. I was somehow under the impression that he had told them the ending as it stood when the show was made, with the purpose of the tv show - and only the tv show - finishing the series in case something happened to him or something. But I just find it hard to believe that the show is completely different than the books; maybe from the books we'll have, but not from the books as they were planned before the show. I hate the fact Martin, after 20 years of writing this, still doesn't know how it ends and doesn't seem to care. I'd like to believe he once had a very good ideia of the plot and it was just post-Dance that he decided to go some other way. But this could all be worthless at the end, since I agree that it's very unlikely we'll see the last book. And to be /very/  honest, a part of me really loves the fact the show will have the last laugh, so to speak.

I've heard all kinds of things including contradictory statements so it's understandable.  :dunno:

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Posted (edited)

I'm sad that the show is finishing the story instead of the author, especially since the author appears very, very unlikely to ever finish the saga.  The odds still seem pretty strong to me that whatever ending GRRM told to HBO for the main characters, that he said/believed at the time would be the end, is how the show will end, at the time he didn't expect the show would overtake him so he would not have believed there was an opportunity to change things up.  He and HBO have made a variety of mutually contradictory statements that include the idea that the show is ending the way George told them the books will end, that George has 'always' known how the story would end, and that George has no idea how the story will end and never has, and that HBO will preserve the 'spirit' but the details will change.  Whether or not he may theoretically change the ending as a result of the show, again, I doubt we will ever find out as I would bet good money that Winds of Winter is the last book ever published in the series.

Edited by Cas Stark

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22 hours ago, Lollygag said:

In this article, GRRM said he doesn't know the ending yet himself thus he couldn't possibly tell it to D&D. And D&D are also quoted as saying the endings may not be the same. And I'll add that just because GRRM told them something doesn't mean D&D will go along with that. GRRM has been overridden before with Stoneheart, etc.

http://time.com/3994289/george-rr-martin-game-of-thrones-song-of-fire-and-ice-ending/

That said, I've seen a lot of contradictions, so we won't know how the show ending compares to the books unless the book ending is actually written (not likely) or unless GRRM comes out and makes a very clear public announcement confirming that the show ending should be seen as the book ending as well.

 

“I haven’t written the ending yet,” he said. “I’ve said before that the tone of the ending that I’m going for is bittersweet. I mean, it’s no secret that Tolkien has been a huge influence on me, and I love the way he ended Lord of the Rings. It ends with a victory, but it’s a bittersweet victory…All I can say is that’s the kind of tone I will be aiming for. Whether I achieve if or not, that will be up to people like you and my readers to judge.”

 

“We’ve had a lot of conversations with George, and he makes a lot of stuff up as he’s writing it,” Benioff told Variety. “Even while we talk to him about the ending, it doesn’t mean that that ending that he has currently conceived is going to be the ending when he eventually writes it.”

 

GRRM says a lot of things, and he contradicts himself a lot.  I believe GRRM this time though because I think he did have an ending in mind (he has said it several times he knew what the ending was going to be, just not the details around it) but now he is going to actively try and change it to make sure the TV show wouldn't have spoiled his books.  The ironic thing is what has actually spoiled the books is that we're highly unlikely to ever see another one.  Especially if he is rewriting everything and not following his original plan.

http://time.com/4346408/game-of-thrones-george-r-r-martin-3-twists/

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

I'm sad that the show is finishing the story instead of the author, especially since the author appears very, very unlikely to ever finish the saga.  The odds still seem pretty strong to me that whatever ending GRRM told to HBO for the main characters, that he said/believed at the time would be the end, is how the show will end, at the time he didn't expect the show would overtake him so he would not have believed there was an opportunity to change things up.  He and HBO have made a variety of mutually contradictory statements that include the idea that the show is ending the way George told them the books will end, that George has 'always' known how the story would end, and that George has no idea how the story will end and never has, and that HBO will preserve the 'spirit' but the details will change.  Whether or not he may theoretically change the ending as a result of the show, again, I doubt we will ever find out as I would bet good money that Winds of Winter is the last book ever published in the series.

I used to think that.  Now I am more and more convinced that ADWD is the last book we'll get.

My personal speculation is that GRRM is waiting for the show to wrap up before he rewrites TWOW in earnest.  As he works towards a new ending (that he may, or may not, have figured out yet) there will be more knots to untangle.  And because the buzz for the books will be long gone by then, he'll just throw in the towel.

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11 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

I used to think that.  Now I am more and more convinced that ADWD is the last book we'll get.

My personal speculation is that GRRM is waiting for the show to wrap up before he rewrites TWOW in earnest.  As he works towards a new ending (that he may, or may not, have figured out yet) there will be more knots to untangle.  And because the buzz for the books will be long gone by then, he'll just throw in the towel.

My gut feeling, and this is just my gut speaking, is that he is doing exactly that in bold. I also have a feeling that he is dealing with possibly splitting TWOW into two books and maybe even ADOS into two books (I am sorry, but I don't see any way possible that this story ends in two books) and possibly trying to write both books at the same time, just to make sure the ending mashes up and if he writes himself into a corner for the ending, can go back to TWOW and change something.

This is just me speculating, but it wouldn't surprise me. I know people assume he has given up and will give up, I just don't completely believe it yet. I really do think he is waiting for the show to end and rewrite some things...

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43 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

I used to think that.  Now I am more and more convinced that ADWD is the last book we'll get.

My personal speculation is that GRRM is waiting for the show to wrap up before he rewrites TWOW in earnest.  As he works towards a new ending (that he may, or may not, have figured out yet) there will be more knots to untangle.  And because the buzz for the books will be long gone by then, he'll just throw in the towel.

I was convinced until fairly recently that we would 100% get Winds, now I'm like 60/40, I still think his publisher will crock up some mish mash and get it out, but that is it.  The end.  No ending.  He may be deluding himself that when the show is over everything will be easier to write, but I doubt it.

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On 6/28/2018 at 6:06 PM, Lollygag said:

In this article, GRRM said he doesn't know the ending yet himself thus he couldn't possibly tell it to D&D. And D&D are also quoted as saying the endings may not be the same. And I'll add that just because GRRM told them something doesn't mean D&D will go along with that. GRRM has been overridden before with Stoneheart, etc.

http://time.com/3994289/george-rr-martin-game-of-thrones-song-of-fire-and-ice-ending/

That said, I've seen a lot of contradictions, so we won't know how the show ending compares to the books unless the book ending is actually written (not likely) or unless GRRM comes out and makes a very clear public announcement confirming that the show ending should be seen as the book ending as well.

 

“I haven’t written the ending yet,” he said. “I’ve said before that the tone of the ending that I’m going for is bittersweet. I mean, it’s no secret that Tolkien has been a huge influence on me, and I love the way he ended Lord of the Rings. It ends with a victory, but it’s a bittersweet victory…All I can say is that’s the kind of tone I will be aiming for. Whether I achieve if or not, that will be up to people like you and my readers to judge.”

 

“We’ve had a lot of conversations with George, and he makes a lot of stuff up as he’s writing it,” Benioff told Variety. “Even while we talk to him about the ending, it doesn’t mean that that ending that he has currently conceived is going to be the ending when he eventually writes it.”

 

 

"I haven't written the ending" =/= "I don't know the ending"

The last point is accurate but whatever way GoT ends is (or should be) close to ASOIAF ending is supposed to be in 2017-2018. If GRRM decides to change it in 2019 because XYZ thing comes up and feels more natural it's the kind of thing Benioff is refering to.

Personally i hope he doesn't. It'd be disrespectful both to D&D and to fans.

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1 hour ago, SecretWeapon said:

 

 

"I haven't written the ending" =/= "I don't know the ending"

The last point is accurate but whatever way GoT ends is (or should be) close to ASOIAF ending is supposed to be in 2017-2018. If GRRM decides to change it in 2019 because XYZ thing comes up and feels more natural it's the kind of thing Benioff is refering to.

Personally i hope he doesn't. It'd be disrespectful both to D&D and to fans.

The title of the article is George R.R. Martin Says He Doesn't Know the Ending of A Song of Ice and Fire Yet.

Bottom line is that we won't know anything at all unless the book ending is actually written or GRRM makes a definitive statement about the show ending being the book ending.

 

 

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I don't necessarily agree that changing from existing ideas will mean the books will take longer to write.

Sometimes doing work which is harder and more exhaustive can be quicker if you're actually enthusiastic about and invested in that work as opposed to simpler tasks which you find tedious, exhausting and uninspired leading you to procrastinate, struggle to focus, and just move at a snail's pace in general.

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IMHO, GRRM shouldn't talk about what may be different between tv show and books but write. It's beginning to look like a scam to make money after the tv show ends.

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Martin, with a net worth of over 70 million, and income from book royalties in the 10 million dollar a year range, and an estimated income of 15 mil a year from HBO alone, probably will never finish another GOT book again.  

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18 hours ago, Lollygag said:

The title of the article is George R.R. Martin Says He Doesn't Know the Ending of A Song of Ice and Fire Yet.

Bottom line is that we won't know anything at all unless the book ending is actually written or GRRM makes a definitive statement about the show ending being the book ending.

the title can say George R.R. Martin Says He Likes Swimming In Chocolate Syrup. That doesn't change the fact that quote says something different

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43 minutes ago, SecretWeapon said:

the title can say George R.R. Martin Says He Likes Swimming In Chocolate Syrup. That doesn't change the fact that quote says something different

Everything I read in the article is consistent with the title. To what quote are you referring?

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5 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Everything I read in the article is consistent with the title. To what quote are you referring?

if you can't understand "I haven't written the ending"  (GRRM actual words) =/= "I don't know the ending" (the title) then i don't have anything else to say

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, SecretWeapon said:

if you can't understand "I haven't written the ending"  (GRRM actual words) =/= "I don't know the ending" (the title) then i don't have anything else to say

What I have bolded is factually true. One doesn't necessarily equate to the other.

But you pulled "I haven't written the ending" out of context of the article and the article proceeds to further define "I haven't written the ending" with GRRM's statement that while he hasn't written the ending, he has committed to a tone for the ending, strongly implying that GRRM hasn't committed to an ending.

If that's not clear enough that GRRM hasn't committed to an ending yet, Benioff makes it crystal clear in a way that's consistent with GRRM's gardening, the new plot change, much professed hatred of outlines, etc: " “We’ve had a lot of conversations with George, and he makes a lot of stuff up as he’s writing it,” Benioff told Variety. “Even while we talk to him about the ending, it doesn’t mean that that ending that he has currently conceived is going to be the ending when he eventually writes it.”

What you claim only works when you strip words from their context. And it should also be noted that the article isn't from some dark corner of the web. It's Time Magazine. They've been at this for a while and have a certain reputation.

There's a thread on the general forum which demonstrates the importance of context when seeking to understand something.

 

Edited by Lollygag

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On 6/30/2018 at 10:44 AM, Error-504 said:

Martin, with a net worth of over 70 million, and income from book royalties in the 10 million dollar a year range, and an estimated income of 15 mil a year from HBO alone, probably will never finish another GOT book again.  

That statement doesn't really make sense. The net worth rarely (if ever, though we would have to find examples) has a baring on someone if they finish a book series or not. If that was the case, Rowling, Patterson and King would all have stopped writing a long time ago. They (generally) do it because they love it, and love the work they create.
Now if you want to argue that it won't be finished because GRRM takes forever, lost interest, or something to the like, that makes sense. But because he is making money off of it now, doesn't mean he suddenly doesn't care about his work and will stop writing...

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GRRM has said more than once that he knows the ending in "broad strokes," which he has implied involves what happens to the main characters: who sits on the Iron Throne, who lives, who dies, and as well what I assume will be the fate of Westeros as a whole. The show's ending can't possibly be 100% the same as the book ending, due to show changes, but in terms of the things 95% of fans care about when they talk about "the ending"--the fates of Jon, Dany, the POV Starks, the Lannister siblings, and the Iron Throne--I'm confident the ending is the same as it will be in ADOS if it's ever published. (I don't think it will be.)

For more minor characters still alive in the show as of the end of S7, it's less clear. For example, TV Gendry is a composite character of Book Gendry and Book Edric Storm. So whose endgame will TV Gendry's reflect? Book Edric's? It also seems as if GRRM hasn't told D&D about what he plans to do with some of the minor characters whose equivalents exist in the TV show, such as Bronn or Qyburn, because he hasn't yet decided what to do with them, like Bronn or Qyburn, so D&D will have to come up with something on their own. 

And then you have book characters whose show characters have been killed off but who are still alive as of the end of ADWD, and there are a lot of them: Obara, Tyene, Ellaria, Olenna, Loras, Mance, Rickon, Osha, Irri, Ramsay, Roose, Randyll, Dickon, Littlefinger, etc. etc. I think we can safely conclude that any actual or potential kings and queens who have died in the show (Stannis, Myrcella, Tommen, Margaery, etc.) are also destined to die in the books--when you play the game of thrones, etc. etc.--and I think it's also likely that the villains like Littlefinger, Roose and Ramsay will get their comeuppance, but beyond that, who knows?

And finally of course there are the hundreds of characters that didn't make it to the show at all who are still alive as of the end of ADWD, whose intended book fates will likely forever remain a mystery unless they're killed off in TWOW, although for many of them we can probably infer that they will die to make way for certain storylines the show has brought into play (Val, Fake Aegon, etc.). I doubt we'll find out the ultimate fate of Dorne, either; D&D seem to have written off that plotline as a failed experiment.

TLDR: The show's ending will absolutely be the same as in the books, as long as by "the ending," you mean what happens to Jon, Dany, the Lannister siblings, and the POV Starks, who's sitting the Iron Throne (if indeed there is one by the end), who gets Winterfell, and what happens to Westeros as a whole. Everything else will be up to D&D....which is why I suspect D&D are going to use the big battles at Winterfell and King's Landing to kill off pretty much everyone who's still alive in the show whose book fates they don't know just to make it easy on themselves (although Bronn's probably safe). 

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21 hours ago, Newstar said:

GRRM has said more than once that he knows the ending in "broad strokes," which he has implied involves what happens to the main characters: who sits on the Iron Throne, who lives, who dies, and as well what I assume will be the fate of Westeros as a whole. The show's ending can't possibly be 100% the same as the book ending, due to show changes, but in terms of the things 95% of fans care about when they talk about "the ending"--the fates of Jon, Dany, the POV Starks, the Lannister siblings, and the Iron Throne--I'm confident the ending is the same as it will be in ADOS if it's ever published. (I don't think it will be.)

For more minor characters still alive in the show as of the end of S7, it's less clear. For example, TV Gendry is a composite character of Book Gendry and Book Edric Storm. So whose endgame will TV Gendry's reflect? Book Edric's? It also seems as if GRRM hasn't told D&D about what he plans to do with some of the minor characters whose equivalents exist in the TV show, such as Bronn or Qyburn, because he hasn't yet decided what to do with them, like Bronn or Qyburn, so D&D will have to come up with something on their own. 

And then you have book characters whose show characters have been killed off but who are still alive as of the end of ADWD, and there are a lot of them: Obara, Tyene, Ellaria, Olenna, Loras, Mance, Rickon, Osha, Irri, Ramsay, Roose, Randyll, Dickon, Littlefinger, etc. etc. I think we can safely conclude that any actual or potential kings and queens who have died in the show (Stannis, Myrcella, Tommen, Margaery, etc.) are also destined to die in the books--when you play the game of thrones, etc. etc.--and I think it's also likely that the villains like Littlefinger, Roose and Ramsay will get their comeuppance, but beyond that, who knows?

And finally of course there are the hundreds of characters that didn't make it to the show at all who are still alive as of the end of ADWD, whose intended book fates will likely forever remain a mystery unless they're killed off in TWOW, although for many of them we can probably infer that they will die to make way for certain storylines the show has brought into play (Val, Fake Aegon, etc.). I doubt we'll find out the ultimate fate of Dorne, either; D&D seem to have written off that plotline as a failed experiment.

TLDR: The show's ending will absolutely be the same as in the books, as long as by "the ending," you mean what happens to Jon, Dany, the Lannister siblings, and the POV Starks, who's sitting the Iron Throne (if indeed there is one by the end), who gets Winterfell, and what happens to Westeros as a whole. Everything else will be up to D&D....which is why I suspect D&D are going to use the big battles at Winterfell and King's Landing to kill off pretty much everyone who's still alive in the show whose book fates they don't know just to make it easy on themselves (although Bronn's probably safe). 

I agree with everything you've said.

The thing's that confusing me right now is that it doesn't seem like a lot of characters will die at the Winterfell battle? Originally I thought Melisandre would be a good death at the Winterfell battle. But Carice was filming after David Nutter's DOP was done so it seems very likely that she'll make it to KL and eps 5 and 6.

I also thought Euron would die within the first 3 episodes but it seems like he'll make it to episodes 5/6 too with Pilou also filming after Nutter's DOP was done. The same seems so for Conleth.

So now I'm thinking only the very minor characters like Pod, Beric, Tormund will die at WF (and maybe another dragon? who knows.) and that the main purge of secondary characters like Euron, Melisandre and Varys will come in episode 5. And that Jaime and Cersei both die in episode 6 (if the rumors are true about D&D directing dragon vs dragon battle for ep 6, that along with Jaime and Cersei's death will securely an Emmy win for them).

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Back in 2014, Martin told Weiss and Benioff how ASOIAF would end. Benioff told Vanity Fair in 2014:

 

Quote

 

Last year we went out to Santa Fe for a week to sit down with [Martin] and just talk through where things are going, because we don’t know if we are going to catch up and where exactly that would be. If you know the ending, then you can lay the groundwork for it. And so we want to know how everything ends. We want to be able to set things up. So we just sat down with him and literally went through every character.


 

 

So we can at least be confident that the "broad-strokes outline" really does include character fates and "how everything ends" (i.e. the end-game for Westeros in the Great War for the Living and the occupant of the Iron Throne).

But the downside to this is that it may portend GRRM's glib but ominous remark in the original 1993 outline to his publisher: "As you know, I don’t outline my novels. I find that if I know exactly where a book is going, I lose all interest in writing it".

Perhaps he does know exactly where this series is going, has told it to HBO

....and.......

 

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