Season 8: News, Spoilers And Leaks

[Angel Eyes]

Been hearing a lot about betrayal for this season.

[Kajjo]

14 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Been hearing a lot about betrayal for this season.

Well, the major betrayal we already know about: Cersei not keeping her word on joining the Great war.

Maybe Jamie will eventually betray Cersei, after having been betrayed by her. Jamie will most probably tell Winterfell about Cersei's plans.

Varys is always a good option for further betrayal. Tyrion is in the center of power and his ultimate alliance is still unclear.

Eurons alliance is entirely unclear. Yes, he appears to have the hots on Cersei and the iron throne, but he might have other plans.

[Angel Eyes]

4 hours ago, Kajjo said:

Well, the major betrayal we already know about: Cersei not keeping her word on joining the Great war.

Maybe Jamie will eventually betray Cersei, after having been betrayed by her. Jamie will most probably tell Winterfell about Cersei's plans.

Varys is always a good option for further betrayal. Tyrion is in the center of power and his ultimate alliance is still unclear.

Eurons alliance is entirely unclear. Yes, he appears to have the hots on Cersei and the iron throne, but he might have other plans.

It’s mainly from Sophie Turner, who seems to be suggesting that Sansa will screw Jon over.

[alienarea]

17 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

It’s mainly from Sophie Turner, who seems to be suggesting that Sansa will screw Jon over.

That's not surprising, isn't it? "You know nothing, Jon Snow."

 

I had hoped for something more original like Jon Snow betraying Daenerys and claiming the Iron Throne for himself.

[Kajjo]

21 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

It’s mainly from Sophie Turner, who seems to be suggesting that Sansa will screw Jon over.

Well, if we remember the same interview Sophie did not say it was her character that betrays, but that betrayals in general are frequent and important in the last season.

[Juligen]

On 8/2/2018 at 1:38 PM, Angel Eyes said:

Been hearing a lot about betrayal for this season.

If there is one theory I was pretty iff about it in season 8 was the Political Jon theory. I didnt like it and didnt see the point of to be honest. I have to say that I still wonder how this could be played out but the show did left us some clues that this may happen. 

On season 1 episode 9, we have a scene where Tyrion meets Shae for the first time in the Lannister camp. They are playing a game of truth and lies and Shae asks him what he is good at. He says “I happen to be a great judge of character”. Of course Tyrion a few seasons later will be blindside by Shae’s betrayal, proving that he is terrible at judging people's character. He was fooled by an uneducated whore, but he still thinks he is smarter than everyone in the room.

Now, fast forward for season 7 episode 2. We have the scene in Dragonstone where Melissandra tells Daenerys to summon Jon Snow and to meet him. Tyrion then jumps the conversation and gives his opinion. Pay attention on Tyrion dialogue in that scene:

Tyrion: "I cant speak to prophecies, or visions in the flames, but I like Jon Snow and I trust him, and I am an excellent judge of character."

He is doing again. Tyrion was easily fooled by Shae, yet he still believes to be an excellent judger of character, because unlike his older brother he never learns with his mistakes. By the end of the season, Jon Snow, the Northern fool had seduced Daenerys, convinced her to bring her dragons and armies North to fight the AOTD and had completely undermined her own advisers.

Now, I am not saying Jon has no feelings for Daenerys, but he came back North with everything he wanted while Tyrion was left ignored by Daenerys. Jon is no fool, because unlike Tyrion, he actually learns with his mistakes.

Thats why I believe Jon Snow will be the betrayal for love. 

 

 

[jcmontea]

2 hours ago, prettylongclaw said:

If there is one theory I was pretty iff about it in season 8 was the Political Jon theory. I didnt like it and didnt see the point of to be honest. I have to say that I still wonder how this could be played out but the show did left us some clues that this may happen. 

On season 1 episode 9, we have a scene where Tyrion meets Shae for the first time in the Lannister camp. They are playing a game of truth and lies and Shae asks him what he is good at. He says “I happen to be a great judge of character”. Of course Tyrion a few seasons later will be blindside by Shae’s betrayal, proving that he is terrible at judging people's character. He was fooled by an uneducated whore, but he still thinks he is smarter than everyone in the room.

Now, fast forward for season 7 episode 2. We have the scene in Dragonstone where Melissandra tells Daenerys to summon Jon Snow and to meet him. Tyrion then jumps the conversation and gives his opinion. Pay attention on Tyrion dialogue in that scene:

Tyrion: "I cant speak to prophecies, or visions in the flames, but I like Jon Snow and I trust him, and I am an excellent judge of character."

He is doing again. Tyrion was easily fooled by Shae, yet he still believes to be an excellent judger of character, because unlike his older brother he never learns with his mistakes. By the end of the season, Jon Snow, the Northern fool had seduced Daenerys, convinced her to bring her dragons and armies North to fight the AOTD and had completely undermined her own advisers.

Now, I am not saying Jon has no feelings for Daenerys, but he came back North with everything he wanted while Tyrion was left ignored by Daenerys. Jon is no fool, because unlike Tyrion, he actually learns with his mistakes.

Thats why I believe Jon Snow will be the betrayal for love. 

 

 

I don’t think undercover Jon is a smart theory. 

In fact, it might be as dumb a theory as Varys is a mermaid. 

What was Jon’s character arc in Season 7? To me it sure looked like the change he underwent was from not really trusting Daenerys because he did not know her and being too prideful to entrust the North to someone he did not know, to deciding to trust her and name her is Queen. 

So undercover Jon would undermine his entire character arc in Season 7. Not only that, a big part of Jon’s character is that he believes the key to making peace is being honest with the other person. He believes this so much he was willing to be honest with Cersei. So not only would that theory invalidate his character arc it would negate a core element of his characterization. 

As such, it is pretty dumb. 

Comparing that theory to the Sansa turning on Littlefinger reveal - which is as twisty as this show has gotten - is instructive. Sansa’s character arc the entire Season was leading to that moment, of her turning on Littlefinger. The show created the twist by just not showing her decide and plan the execution and reconcile with Arya, but her arc was leading there since the moment she said she learned a lot from cersei in 701. 

[Juligen]

8 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

I don’t think undercover Jon is a smart theory. 

In fact, it might be as dumb a theory as Varys is a mermaid. 

What was Jon’s character arc in Season 7? To me it sure looked like the change he underwent was from not really trusting Daenerys because he did not know her and being too prideful to entrust the North to someone he did not know, to deciding to trust her and name her is Queen. 

 So undercover Jon would undermine his entire character arc in Season 7. Not only that, a big part of Jon’s character is that he believes the key to making peace is being honest with the other person. He believes this so much he was willing to be honest with Cersei. So not only would that theory invalidate his character arc it would negate a core element of his characterization. 

As such, it is pretty dumb. 

Comparing that theory to the Sansa turning on Littlefinger reveal - which is as twisty as this show has gotten - is instructive. Sansa’s character arc the entire Season was leading to that moment, of her turning on Littlefinger. The show created the twist by just not showing her decide and plan the execution and reconcile with Arya, but her arc was leading there since the moment she said she learned a lot from cersei in 701. 

Its one of the theories that I just ignored and didnt pay much  attention, but since re watching the show a million of times, some scenes did jumped on  my face, like the one that I just described. Why use the same exactly quote from season 1, when we all know that Shae did betray Tyrion in the end. 

 

Then there is the blue flower vision from Daenerys:

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness …

A  Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

 

I think its safe to say that we all believed that this line, a blue flower in a wall of Ice refers to Jon Snow. We also always believed to be a foreshadowing of the blooming romance between Jon Snow and Daenerys because in the line, the flower fills the air with sweetens and we always assume sweetness with good things, yet, in most of Daenerys chapters in the book, sweetness represents something bad or negative. This happens especially on Daenerys chapters.

 

Dany smiled. “Perhaps it’s the camels you’re smelling. The Qartheen themselves seem sweet enough to my nose.” “Sweet smells are sometimes used to cover foul ones." (A Clash of Kings - Daenerys II)

 

Ser Jorah lifted a cup and sniffed at the wine, frowning. "Sweet, isn’t it?” the wineseller said, smiling. “Can you smell the fruit, ser? The perfume of the Arbor. Taste it, my lord, and tell me it isn’t the finest, richest wine that’s ever touched your tongue." (A Game of Thrones - Daenerys VI)

 

A foul, sweet smell rose from the wound, so thick it almost choked her. - (A Game of Thrones - Daenerys VIII)

 

I dont really think this would destroy Jon Snow character, he is learning how to play the game and Jon really doesnt care about Daenerys desire to sit on the Iron Throne, he is desperate to save his people, his home and his family and he will do would its necessary. Jon Snow will never put his honor above the lives of his people, and he would do what was necessary to save them no matter what.

 

"Val is no princess, though. I told him that half a hundred times. It was a feeble sort of evasion, a sad rag wrapped around his wounded word. His father would never have approved. I am the sword that guards the realm of men, Jon reminded himself, and in the end, that must be worth more than one man's honor." (ADWD- Jon)

 

 

The books do gives us some hints that this could happen too, I just dont know how it would happen. But I dont think Jon had any plans to give the North to Dany after all his family went through. Especially after you re watch this story. The way the Stark boys were hunted down by the Boltons and Greyjoys, the way Sansa was sold and tossed around because of her claim. The Stark children bleed for Winterfell and the North, Rickon was killed right in front of him because of his claim of Winterfell. Do you think he will just give to Dany because her horrible father used to be King? 

 

 

[jcmontea]

1 hour ago, prettylongclaw said:

 

The books do gives us some hints that this could happen too, I just dont know how it would happen. But I dont think Jon had any plans to give the North to Dany after all his family went through. Especially after you re watch this story. The way the Stark boys were hunted down by the Boltons and Greyjoys, the way Sansa was sold and tossed around because of her claim. The Stark children bleed for Winterfell and the North, Rickon was killed right in front of him because of his claim of Winterfell. Do you think he will just give to Dany because her horrible father used to be King? 

Not sure what you mean by have any plans to give the North to Dany. But he did do it. He told her in 706. Then he told everyone else in 707 including Sansa. 

And the whole point of his arc in Season 7 is that he gives it to her not because her horrible father used to be King but because he got to know her. That was the whole point. 

[Juligen]

33 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

Not sure what you mean by have any plans to give the North to Dany. But he did do it. He told her in 706. Then he told everyone else in 707 including Sansa. 

And the whole point of his arc in Season 7 is that he gives it to her not because her horrible father used to be King but because he got to know her. That was the whole point. 

I totaly get it what you are saying. I also dont know how this would play out, but its just my gut feeling that Jon was playing something for Dany. Remember when they brought back the quote "everything before the word but is horseshit"? I just dont think they are bringing back all those quotes from season 1 as a coincidence.

 

Also the soundtrack used in the boat scene where Jon gives the North to Daenerys is named "See you for what You Are" which is a very dubious name. Its not named "My Queen" or "The rightful Queen". Emilia said in some interview that Daenerys will do a lot of crazy shit in the last season and I just think that finding out the truth about Jon Snow will have strong consequences. This idea that Dany is just in Westeros to help the people is silly, she wants that Throne, she wats to be Queen. And she believes the North will serve her after she helps them, so I just think things wont work the way she is planiing and there will be a lot of conflict.

 

 

 

 

[jcmontea]

5 hours ago, prettylongclaw said:

I totaly get it what you are saying. I also dont know how this would play out, but its just my gut feeling that Jon was playing something for Dany. Remember when they brought back the quote "everything before the word but is horseshit"? I just dont think they are bringing back all those quotes from season 1 as a coincidence.

 

Also the soundtrack used in the boat scene where Jon gives the North to Daenerys is named "See you for what You Are" which is a very dubious name. Its not named "My Queen" or "The rightful Queen". Emilia said in some interview that Daenerys will do a lot of crazy shit in the last season and I just think that finding out the truth about Jon Snow will have strong consequences. This idea that Dany is just in Westeros to help the people is silly, she wants that Throne, she wats to be Queen. And she believes the North will serve her after she helps them, so I just think things wont work the way she is planiing and there will be a lot of conflict.

 

 

 

 

It may be true that things won’t work the way she is planning and there will be a lot of conflict.

That though has nothng to do with what those scenes in 706 and 707 were communicating

[btfu806]

On 8/4/2018 at 12:02 PM, prettylongclaw said:

Of course Tyrion a few seasons later will be blindside by Shae’s betrayal, proving that he is terrible at judging people's character. He was fooled by an uneducated whore, but he still thinks he is smarter than everyone in the room.

So I am rewatching that season now and Shae wasn't always there to betray Tyrion though, right? She didn't betray him till he sent her away.

So when Tyrion first meets Shae, she is faithful. Faithful yet maybe jealous at times with the whole Sansa marriage. It isn't until Tyrion sends Shae away and calls her a whore that she decides to act like a whore and turn on Tyrion. But from the time Tyrion sends her away to the trial, he never gets to see her to see how her character has changed. A person can only take so much?

Anyway, to me it makes sense that her character at first was faithful to Tyrion but wasn't later on because of his actions and he didn't see her after that to rejudge her character.

I also like your book references with sweetness. I have always believed that the Jon and Dany romance was unlikely to happen or at least not likely to happen the way it has in the show.

[Juligen]

3 hours ago, btfu806 said:

So I am rewatching that season now and Shae wasn't always there to betray Tyrion though, right? She didn't betray him till he sent her away.

So when Tyrion first meets Shae, she is faithful. Faithful yet maybe jealous at times with the whole Sansa marriage. It isn't until Tyrion sends Shae away and calls her a whore that she decides to act like a whore and turn on Tyrion. But from the time Tyrion sends her away to the trial, he never gets to see her to see how her character has changed. A person can only take so much?

Anyway, to me it makes sense that her character at first was faithful to Tyrion but wasn't later on because of his actions and he didn't see her after that to rejudge her character.

I also like your book references with sweetness. I have always believed that the Jon and Dany romance was unlikely to happen or at least not likely to happen the way it has in the show.

Tyrion was told by his father to not take the whore (Shae) to Kings Landing.  Tyrion, of course, doesnt follow his father orders and because of that ends up having to deal with a whore that wont leave the city after his marriage to Sansa and starts to cause him problems. In the books Shae is a much more shady character than the tv show character, she is always asking for money and worried about the jewels and gold that she received from him.

“In the game of thrones, even the humblest pieces can have wills of their own. Sometimes they refuse to make the moves you’ve planned for them.” — Petyr Baelish

( A Feast for Crows, Chapter 23, Alayne I.)

Tyrion has something in common with his sister Cersei, he believes to be much smarter than he actually is. He takes Shae to Kings Landing and believes he can control her and that he can easily get ridd of her when he wants to. That turns out not be the case. He underestimates people around him, especially those he believes to be inferior or not as smart as him. He was easily fooled by Sansa, a teenager girl when he tried to house her in the Hands Tower.  Tyrion was that close to putting her under guard in the Tower of the Hand, putting a serious crimp in her plans to meet with Ser Dontos in the godswood and continue planning to escape so she tells him that she is afraid of ghosts. 

 

“I would sooner return to my own bed.” A lie came to her suddenly, but it seemed so right that she blurted it out at once. “This tower was where my father’s men were slain. Their ghosts would give me terrible dreams, and I would see their blood wherever I looked.”

Tyrion Lannister studied her face. “I am no stranger to nightmares, Sansa. Perhaps you are wiser than I knew. Permit me at least to escort you back to your own chambers.”

- Sansa III, ACoK

Why was Sansa able to fool Tyrion? because he never imagined that such silly little girl could be ploting her own plans in KL. He underestimate Sansa, like he does to many others. 

So Tyrion invited Jon Snow, a man he believes to be trustworthy and introduces him to his Queen. By the end of the season, this man is literally dictating Daenerys moves and convinced her to take her dragons and armies to North to fight HIS war. 

 

One of the themes of this story is that you must learn with your mistakes, doesnt matter if you are a fool, naive, arrogant, stupid, not very smart.... but in the end of  the journey, you must at least not repeat the same mistakes over and over and over. Thats what Jaime, Sansa, Theon, Jon are all doing, avoiding to repeat the same mistakes, while Tyrion keeps making them, over, over and over. 

 

Do you know who also keeps making the same mistakes? Daenerys! How did she lose everything on season 1? she listened the advices of a sorcerer. Why did she invited Jon Snow to Dragonstone? oh, because a sorcerer told her to do it. 

[btfu806]

10 minutes ago, prettylongclaw said:

Tyrion was told by his father to not take the whore (Shae) to Kings Landing.  Tyrion, of course doesnt follow his father orders and because of that ends up having to deal with a whore that wont leave the city after his marries Sansa and starts to cause him problems. In the books Shae is much more shady character than the tv show one, she is always asking for money and worried about her jewels and gold that she received from him.

“In the game of thrones, even the humblest pieces can have wills of their own. Sometimes they refuse to make the moves you’ve planned for them.” — Petyr Baelish

( A Feast for Crows, Chapter 23, Alayne I.)

Tyrion has something in common with his sister Cersei, he believes to be much smarter than he actually is. He takes Shae to Kings Landing and believes he can control her and that he can easily get ridd of her when he wants to. That turns out not be the case. He underestimates people around him, especially those he believes to be inferior or not as smart as him. He was easily fooled by Sansa, a teenager girl when he tried to house her in the Hands Tower.  Tyrion was that close to putting her under guard in the Tower of the Hand, putting a serious crimp in her plans to meet with Ser Dontos in the godswood and continue planning to escape so she tells him that she is afraid of ghosts. 

 

“I would sooner return to my own bed.” A lie came to her suddenly, but it seemed so right that she blurted it out at once. “This tower was where my father’s men were slain. Their ghosts would give me terrible dreams, and I would see their blood wherever I looked.”

Tyrion Lannister studied her face. “I am no stranger to nightmares, Sansa. Perhaps you are wiser than I knew. Permit me at least to escort you back to your own chambers.”

- Sansa III, ACoK

Why was Sansa able to fool Tyrion? because he never thought suhc silly little girl could be ploting her own plans in KL. He underestimate Sansa, like he does to many others. 

So Tyrion invited Jon Snow, a man he believes to be trustworthy and introduces him to his Queen. By the end of the season, this man is literally dictating Daenerys moves and convinced her to take her dragons and armies to North to fight HIS war. 

 

One of the themes of this story is that you must learn with your mistakes, doesnt matter if you are a fool, naive, arrogant, stupid, not very smart.... but in the end of  the journey, you must at least not repeat the same mistakes over and over and over. Thats what Jaime, Sansa, Theon, Jon are all doing, avoiding to repeat the same mistakes, while Tyrion keeps making them, over, over and over. 

 

Do you know who also keeps making the same mistakes? Daenerys! How did she lose everything on season 1? she listened the advices of a sorcerer. Why did she invited Jon Snow to Dragonstone? oh, because a sorcerer told her to do it. 

Good overview. Those are some book quotes and I keep forgetting Shae was different in the books than the show (no idea why I keep doing that).

I also really agree with Tyrion not being as smart as he thinks he is. Cersei has the same trait but it's more obvious to the reader, but you're right the Tyrion mistakes seem to be a little more subtle. 

[Kajjo]

On 8/4/2018 at 8:25 PM, jcmontea said:

he was willing to be honest with Cersei. So not only would that theory invalidate his character arc it would negate a core element of his characterization

Agreed. Exactly my opinion. Jon might have weaknesses, but betrayal is not one of it. However, if Daenerys starts doing cruel or crazy things, he loyalty belongs to the North and that would not be betrayal.

 

4 hours ago, prettylongclaw said:

Thats what Jaime, Sansa, Theon, Jon are all doing, avoiding to repeat the same mistakes, while Tyrion keeps making them, over, over and over. 

Well, I agree that Tyrion does not seem to learn that fast and he makes a lot of mistakes. For someone counting so much on his mind, this should be alarming.

 

On 8/4/2018 at 6:02 PM, prettylongclaw said:

Tyrion a few seasons later will be blindside by Shae’s betrayal

I don't hink Tyrion misjudged Shae's character, though. He misjudged how much she felt hurt by him shunning her and misjudged how extremely pissed Shae (and probably many other women) can get if shunned.

 

On 8/4/2018 at 8:25 PM, jcmontea said:

The show created the twist by just not showing her decide and plan the execution and reconcile with Arya, but her arc was leading there since the moment she said she learned a lot from cersei in 701

Agreed.

 

[Juligen]

1 hour ago, Kajjo said:

Agreed. Exactly my opinion. Jon might have weaknesses, but betrayal is not one of it. However, if Daenerys starts doing cruel or crazy things, he loyalty belongs to the North and that would not be betrayal.

 

Remember season 4, the finale, Jon Snow goes to the Wildlings camp to have a word with Mance after the Battle at the Wall. Mance said he trusted Jon Snow

 

Mance Ryder: I was hoping your loyalty was real when you pledge yourself to us, trully Jon Snow

Jon Snow: I was loyal, to Qhorin Halfhand and to my Nights Watch vows. 

 

Jon Snow is loyal, to the North, to House Stark, to his family. Jon learned to lie a long time ago and he will do whats necessary to save the North. He knows that the Iron Throne is just a vanity dream for Daenerys. Do you really think he gives a damn about who sits on the chair?? 

 

Do you really think that after everything the North has suffered he is going to ask his people to march south and fight another war so that Daenerys can achieve her life goal of being queen? a woman so alien and ignorant of Westeros, she no even knew that the last King of the North was Robb Stark and not Thrren Stark???? a fact that every child in Westeros knows from the songs about the Young Wolf. Do you think this little detail of her speech was mistake from the writers??? because I am pretty sure it was not. 

 

[jcmontea]

2 hours ago, prettylongclaw said:

 

Do you really think that after everything the North has suffered he is going to ask his people to march south and fight another war so that Daenerys can achieve her life goal of being queen? a woman so alien and ignorant of Westeros, she no even knew that the last King of the North was Robb Stark and not Thrren Stark???? a fact that every child in Westeros knows from the songs about the Young Wolf. Do you think this little detail of her speech was mistake from the writers??? because I am pretty sure it was not. 

 

Isn’t that exactly what he pledged to do!?!? 

Isn’t that the whole point of him refusing to promise to Cersie that he won’t get involved in the South? The point of Sansa saying “he pledged to fight for Daenerys Targaryen”

i don’t really get the argument. 

[Juligen]

4 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

Isn’t that exactly what he pledged to do!?!? 

Isn’t that the whole point of him refusing to promise to Cersie that he won’t get involved in the South? The point of Sansa saying “he pledged to fight for Daenerys Targaryen”

i don’t really get the argument. 

Mance Ryder: I was hoping your loyalty was real when you pledge yourself to us, trully Jon Snow

 Jon Snow: I was loyal, to Qhorin Halfhand and to my Nights Watch vows. 

 

Jon Snow lies, in fact he lies all the times in the books. Thats what I am trying to explain. He lied to Daenerys (at leats thats what I believe) because he has no plans to force his people to go fight in another war so that Daenerys can be queen. Now, hiw this will play out on season 8 I dont know, but I have no doubt that Jon has no plans to involve his people in another brutal war, just so that Dany can be queen. 

 

 

[jcmontea]

3 minutes ago, prettylongclaw said:

Mance Ryder: I was hoping your loyalty was real when you pledge yourself to us, trully Jon Snow

 Jon Snow: I was loyal, to Qhorin Halfhand and to my Nights Watch vows. 

 

Jon Snow lies, in fact he lies all the times in the books. Thats what I am trying to explain. He lied to Daenerys (at leats thats what I believe) because he has no plans to force his people to go fight in another war so that Daenerys can be queen. Now, hiw this will play out on season 8 I dont know, but I have no doubt that Jon has no plans to involve his people in another brutal war, just so that Dany can be queen. 

 

 

Yea sorry. I don’t think this makes sense.

that is exactly what his character arc was about last year. 

The example you cited we knew as an audience that he was on a mission by the halfhand. We saw it. 

There is zero chance they made his entire character arc in Season 7 about learning to trust Daenerys and have that just be a trick played on the audience AND something hidden in the outline and the scripts. 

[larastone]

cleganebowl will happen in the series finale