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Season 8: News, Spoilers And Leaks

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54 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I guess that makes me a moron. And it’s my critique of the books as well.

For it to be nihilistic, it has mean that it's pushing an ideology that means everything is meaningless. That's not really the ideology the books are pushing.

Nihilism isn't just being depressing. It's that everything is inherently without value. 

GRRM is taking a standpoint that being good is not enough. The story isn't saying that it's meaningless to be good.

That's only depressing in comparison to most fantasy stories which are completely on the other end where all you have to do is be good(and powerful) and the story will make accommodate the protagonists.

 

Here:

Hi, I’ve seen the term “existential triumph” come up in many metas, and I was wondering if you could explain the concept?

It’s about divorcing doing the right thing from social rewards and status–the former does not automatically lead to the latter, and achieving the latter doesn’t mean you’ve accomplished the former. Sansa was brought up equating the two, because the songs and stories she loved told her that’s how it worked. If you save the day, you get the crown and the beautiful girl, and if you’re, say, an attractive blond prince, you must be a good person. She learns better by the end of the first book.

The triumph comes from facing a situation in which you will not be rewarded for doing the right thing–it might even get you killed–but you do it anyway, to emphasize that heroism means something more than being the main character and ending up on top at the end. 

There’s an immense catharsis to be found in these moments, in which characters go through intense crucibles and discover what their values really are when the pretense of being rewarded for them is stripped away.

 

 

 

GRRM: You want to be the hero. You want to stand up, whether you're Spider-Man fighting the Green Goblin, or the American saving the world from the Nazis. It's sad to say, but I do think there are things worth fighting for. Men are still capable of great heroism. But I don't necessarily think there are heroes. That's something that's very much in my books: I believe in great characters. We're all capable of doing great things, and of doing bad things. We have the angels and the demons inside of us, and our lives are a succession of choices. Look at a figure like Woodrow Wilson, one of the most fascinating presidents in American history. He was despicable on racial issues. He was a Southern segregationist of the worst stripe, praising D.W. Griffith and The Birth of a Nation. He effectively was a Ku Klux Klan supporter. But in terms of foreign affairs, and the League of Nations, he had one of the great dreams of our time. The war to end all wars – we make fun of it now, but God, it was an idealistic dream. If he'd been able to achieve it, we'd be building statues of him a hundred feet high, and saying, "This was the greatest man in human history: This was the man who ended war." He was a racist who tried to end war. Now, does one cancel out the other? Well, they don't cancel out the other. You can't make him a hero or a villain. He was both. And we're all both.

 

GRRM:In real life, real-life kings had real-life problems to deal with. Just being a good guy was not the answer. You had to make hard, hard decisions. Sometimes what seemed to be a good decision turned around and bit you in the ass; it was the law of unintended consequences. I've tried to get at some of these in my books. My people who are trying to rule don't have an easy time of it. Just having good intentions doesn't make you a wise king.

 

Edited by Lord_Ravenstone

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1 hour ago, TRILOGY said:

EP 4? That's extremely unlikely, they're main characters.

There's only 6 episodes this season though so that's over halfway through the season.

It also doesn't make any sense for Cersei/Euron to send their forces to the North to attack Winterfell while the WW are in the same area and where are Jon and Daenerys? They're clearly not around. Would Cersei/Euron really send their forces north while both enemies have dragons in the area? Probably not.

The epilogue is likely all of episode 6.  And well D & D aren't battle directors and they're directing episode 6 so there likely won't be any battles in that episode so the climax is likely episode 5 and if there's a Scouring of the Shire, it makes more sense to do it after the WW are defeated than before.

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2 hours ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

Speculation here but what I'm seeing is that the climatic WW battle takes place in 8 x 03 which leaves the WW retreating north and Jon and Daenerys following them all the way beyond the wall. And the Other threat is finished off in 8x04 with Dany or Jon or both possibly dying.

And then the GC/Lannisters forces attacking the Starks at Winterfell for the last battle in 8 x 05 while Jon/Dany are gone.

So whoever commands the GC/Lannisters is the Sharky (Euron or Cersei) to the Starks' Hobbits.

I could see that happening. 

But Jon and Daenerys are not dying in episode 4. They might die, but it will be an episode 6 thing. 

I have a hard time seeing any of Cersei, Jaime, Jon, Dany, Tyrion or Arya dying before the final episode

Edited by jcmontea

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34 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

I could see that happening. 

But Jon and Daenerys are not dying in episode 4. They might die, but it will be an episode 6 thing. 

I have a hard time seeing any of Cersei, Jaime, Jon, Dany, Tyrion or Arya dying before the final episode

The final episode has to make room for the epilogue though. I think this series will need most if not all of the last episode to tie everything up. The finale episode can't be packed with all the climaxes. Besides GRRM has talked about how anti-climatic he found the Scouring of the Shire at first but later learned to love it so it'll probably be something like that as in something that is seemingly anti-climatic.

And well if Jon/Dany are Aragorn then they won't be there for that part of the story as Aragorn wasn't at the Scouring of the Shire. That's something the leftover heroes dealt with. (And if I'm right and the Winterfell battle is episode 5 and the Battle of KL is episode 3 then why aren't they there in Winterfell unless they're either dead or their dragons are dead)

 

Sorry, Jon and Dany not being there brings up way too many questions.

Note: Cersei is probably going to die far before the end in the books so this isn't mandated by the plot but however D & D feel. (I could see her dying in early ADOS)

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1 hour ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

There's only 6 episodes this season though so that's over halfway through the season.

It also doesn't make any sense for Cersei/Euron to send their forces to the North to attack Winterfell while the WW are in the same area and where are Jon and Daenerys? They're clearly not around. Would Cersei/Euron really send their forces north while both enemies have dragons in the area? Probably not.

The epilogue is likely all of episode 6.  And well D & D aren't battle directors and they're directing episode 6 so there likely won't be any battles in that episode so the climax is likely episode 5 and if there's a Scouring of the Shire, it makes more sense to do it after the WW are defeated than before.

The problem is that the analogy doesn't work, because the Scouring of the Shire occurred after the defeat of the Big Bad: the heroes return to their idyllic home and oops! Home is all fucked up and full of baddies that need to be dealt with. So Euron/Cersei as well as the WWs would need to be already defeated (and the burning of all or part of KL with dragonfire as rumoured could surely play into that), and Team Jon/Dany comes back to Winterfell only to deal with the attack...except why would the attack be carried out if Euron/Cersei have already been dealt with? And why would anyone be at Winterfell if the WWs make it as far as KL, as they would if the show goes with the "Bran them all" theory (where KL is overrun with wights/WWs and Bran wargs Drogon to set off the wildfire and destroy the city)? It makes no sense. 

Also, while Miguel Sapochnik has directed episodes that were relatively low key ("The Gift," "The Winds of Winter," etc.), his main claim to fame is crazy action set pieces. 8x03 is going to have something big, and a huge Winterfell battle while Cersei/Euron haven't yet been defeated by Jon/Dany is just the ticket. Furthermore, while the Season 8 budget is lavish, the show just can't afford to have many battles with 400-500 extras, horses, etc. in the same season. Between whatever happens at KL, the Winterfell battle, and what I assume will be a big showdown battle with the WWs, there isn't much room for any other big set pieces in Season 8, and 8x03 is (in my opinion) too early for the last fight with the WWs or the end of KL.

If you are a "Sansa dies in S8" conspiracy theorist, there are a few separate threads that could point to the shape of part of the S8 plot:

1. The Winterfell battle seems likely to take place in 8x03.

2. Sophie Turner when describing her S8 arc said it involved a "passionate fight" as opposed to a "political" fight.

3. Sansa is likely to be in Winterfell when it's attacked (since where else would she be?), and due to her inability to fight is vulnerable (particularly if Arya and Brienne are separated from her).

4. Sansa had a connection with the Blackfish's storyline in S6 where he stubbornly refused to cede or flee his ancestral home, despite Brienne's pleas, and was killed as a result. Sansa would also likely refuse to abandon Winterfell if the castle falls for emotional reasons.

5. Sansa in Season 7 fretted about Cersei having found a way to murder anyone who's ever crossed her. Jon in S6 vowed to protect her, and Sansa shrugged him off with "No one can protect anyone."

6. Rory McCann has been spotted around Belfast around the same time as Gwendoline and Iain when they've been filming the Winterfell battle.

7. Sandor is therefore likely to be in Winterfell when it's attacked (and assist in its defence).

8. Sandor's lines addressed to the Mountain at the dragonpit in 7x07 strongly foreshadowed Sandor vs. Gregor.

9. The show has played up Arya's relationship with the Hound and has created a bond between Arya and Brienne as well.

10. The show has also reminded us several times of Arya's connection to and desire to kill Cersei.

11. Gwendoline and NCW were filming during the same week when the Winterfell battle filming was ongoing.

12. Maisie Williams seems stumped by Arya's ending. She has said that she needed to go back to the first season and view her arc as having a beginning, a middle and an end. The show seems to have pointed strongly to Arya heading off on her own to explore or refusing to be tamed ("That's not me") and all. 

So...adding it all up...here's what I got:

Cersei sends the Lannister forces to attack Winterfell, probably after having a meltdown once she miscarries. Sansa dies in the battle of Winterfell, maybe because she refuses to abandon it when the castle falls (just as the Blackfish refused to flee). Arya, Sandor, Brienne and Jaime--four characters who in between them have a number of strong relationships with each other (Jaime/Brienne, Sandor/Arya, Arya/Brienne, etc.), and who would all be guilt-stricken to various degrees over Sansa's death for various reasons--all team up and head to KL to deal with Cersei once and for all. Heck, throw Tyrion in for good measure, since he talked Dany into not killing Cersei. One of Jaime/Arya/Tyrion is probably the valonqar, so ship them all off to KL, let Jaime/Arya/Tyrion kill Cersei, let Jaime die with Cersei, let Sandor tangle with the Mountain, and everything falls into place. Meanwhile, Jon and Dany can be off somewhere saving the world.

As for why Sansa needs to die (instead of just being taken prisoner by Lannister soldiers), this would pave the way for Arya to end up with Winterfell, which would be an ending that would surprise and throw Maisie--since she was probably assuming that Sansa would end up with it--and has to be a lady after all, which ties into her comment in S7 that the world doesn't just let girls decide what they're going to be. It also makes sense in light of the outline, since GRRM probably envisioned Winterfell going to one of the main five rather than Sansa...although I guess it could be Bran who winds up with Winterfell in the end.

The other big reason Sansa dying in Winterfell would be a fitting end for her arc is that Sansa once longed for the glamour of the south and told her mother (in the show) that going south to marry Joffrey was "the only thing I've ever wanted." So Sansa deciding to die rather than abandon the home she once was so desperate to escape would bring things full circle. Throw in something about Sansa staying behind and giving Arya time to escape, and you've got your Lady/Nymeria parallel right there.

Edited by Newstar

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1 minute ago, Newstar said:

The problem is that the analogy doesn't work, because the Scouring of the Shire occurred after the defeat of the Big Bad: the heroes return to their idyllic home and oops! Home is all fucked up and full of baddies that need to be dealt with. So Euron/Cersei as well as the WWs would need to be already defeated (and the burning of all or part of KL with dragonfire as rumoured could surely play into that), and Team Jon/Dany comes back to Winterfell only to deal with the attack...except why would the attack be carried out if Euron/Cersei have already been dealt with? And why would anyone be at Winterfell if the WWs make it as far as KL, as they would in the "Bran them all" theory (where KL is overrun with wights/WWs and Bran wargs Drogon to destroy the city)? It makes no sense. 

Also, while Miguel Sapochnik has directed episodes that were relatively low key ("The Gift," "The Winds of Winter," etc.), his main claim to fame is crazy action set pieces. 8x03 is going to have something big, and a huge Winterfell battle while Cersei/Euron haven't yet been defeated by Jon/Dany is just the ticket. Furthermore, while the Season 8 budget is lavish, the show just can't afford to have many battles with 400-500 extras, horses, etc. in the same season. Between whatever happens at KL, the Winterfell battle, and what I assume will be a big showdown battle with the WWs, there isn't much room for any other big set pieces in Season 8, and 8x03 is (in my opinion) too early for the last fight with the WWs or the end of KL.

If you are a "Sansa dies in S8" conspiracy theorist, there are a few separate threads that could point to the shape of part of the S8 plot:

1. The Winterfell battle seems likely to take place in 8x03.

2. Sophie Turner when describing her S8 arc said it involved a "passionate fight" as opposed to a "political" fight.

3. Sansa is therefore likely to be in Winterfell when it's attacked (since where else would she be?), and due to her inability to fight is vulnerable (particularly if Arya and Brienne are separated from her).

4. Sansa had a connection with the Blackfish's storyline in S6 where he stubbornly refused to cede or flee his ancestral home, despite Brienne's pleas, and was killed as a result.

5. Sansa in Season 7 fretted about Cersei having found a way to murder anyone who's ever crossed her. Jon in S6 vowed to protect her, and Sansa shrugged him off with "No one can protect anyone."

6. Rory McCann has been spotted around Belfast around the same time as Gwendoline and Iain when they've been filming the Winterfell battle.

7. Sandor is therefore likely to be in Winterfell when it's attacked (and assist in its defence).

8. Sandor's lines addressed to the Mountain at the dragonpit in 7x07 strongly foreshadowed Sandor vs. Gregor.

9. The show has played up Arya's relationship with the Hound and has created a bond between Arya and Brienne as well.

10. The show has also reminded us several times of Arya's connection to and desire to kill Cersei.

11. Gwendoline and NCW were filming during the same week when the Winterfell battle filming was ongoing.

12. Maisie Williams seems stumped by Arya's ending. She has said that she needed to go back to the first season and view her arc as having a beginning, a middle and an end. The show seems to have pointed strongly to Arya heading off on her own to explore or refusing to be tamed ("That's not me") and all. 

So...adding it all up...here's what I got:

Cersei sends the Lannister forces to attack Winterfell, probably after having a meltdown once she miscarries. Sansa dies in the battle of Winterfell, maybe because she refuses to abandon it when the castle falls (just as the Blackfish refused to flee). Arya, Sandor, Brienne and Jaime--four characters who in between them have a number of strong relationships with each other (Jaime/Brienne, Sandor/Arya, Arya/Brienne, etc.), and who would all be guilt-stricken to various degrees over Sansa's death for various reasons--all team up and head to KL to deal with Cersei once and for all. Heck, throw Tyrion in for good measure, since he talked Dany into not killing Cersei. One of Jaime/Arya/Tyrion is probably the valonqar, so ship them all off to KL, let Jaime/Arya/Tyrion kill Cersei, let Jaime die with Cersei, let Sandor tangle with the Mountain, and everything falls into place. Meanwhile, Jon and Dany can be off somewhere saving the world.

As for why Sansa needs to die (instead of just being taken prisoner by Lannister soldiers), this would pave the way for Arya to end up with Winterfell, which would be an ending that would surprise and throw Maisie--since she was probably assuming that Sansa would end up with it--and has to be a lady after all, which ties into her comment in S7 that the world doesn't just let girls decide what they're going to be. It also makes sense in light of the outline, since GRRM probably envisioned Winterfell going to one of the main five rather than Sansa...although I guess it could be Bran who winds up with Winterfell in the end.

It'll never be one for one.

Winterfell is protected by magic as it's been raised by Bran the Builder. It could very well be stuck in a siege because the WW can't assault the place. It'd be similar to the magic in BR's cave.The majority of the White Walkers aren't just going to wait around, they'll probably leave to storm the rest of the continent while they leave a portion to hold Winterfell down so their rear isn't threatened. 

If there's only two battle episodes this season and the Winterfell battle involves the Golden Company and Lannisters attacking Winterfell then that begs several questions, where are the White Walkers? How the hell could the Golden Company get to Winterfell faster than the White Walkers? Why would Cersei/Euron do a pre-emptive strike before the White Walkers even attack Team Targaryen? Why is Cersei doing something as stupid as sending her armies in the middle of a war between two sides with dragons? How does Cersei know Jon and Daenerys aren't in Winterfell? 

None of this makes sense if Cersei is the one striking first because that means that the WW still aren't far south as of 8 x 03 and that the GC can avoid all of them because the North isn't overrun with WW. Also Cersei would have to be clairvoyant to know Daenerys isn't at Winterfell. Not accounting for bad writing then this is all highly unlikely. 

So presumably, this is 8 x 05. The he WW are defeated and Jon/Daenerys  and the dragons are either dead or incapacitated atm. And then Cersei takes the opportunity to attack Winterfell because her scheme worked. 

I think it's very possible that KL via the Bran Them All theory is where the Others are defeated and if not, it's definitely where the Army of the Dead is defeated and perhaps 8x 04 is a dragon battle between the NK and Daenerys/Jon in the far North and not much more spectacle than that. 

Anyways, I'm not a Sansa dies conspiracist since the freefolk leakers despise Sansa and we've had leaks predicting her death since season 6 and then there's this Tyrion line in the show towards Sansa:

"Lady Stark, you may survive us yet." 

I doubt that Arya is going to become the Lady of Winterfell because Bryan Cogman has said that the last interaction between Arya and Nymeria is foreshadowing for Arya:

Cogman: "Arya and Nymeria do and don’t have the connection they’ve always had. In the end, they’re both lone wolves. They can’t go back to the way things were. And that might be foreshadowing for Arya too."

Benioff: “Arya’s not domesticated and it makes total sense that her wolf wouldn’t be either. And once the wolf walks away, at first she’s heartbroken to have come this close,” said Weiss. “Then she realizes that the wolf is doing exactly what she would do.”

Williams: “Nymeria has created her own world and created her own pack and isn’t ready to be Arya’s pet. To be someone’s pet would reverse everything she’s learned. So they almost just regard each other and go their separate ways.”

Arya can't be domesticated. She's not going to end up a lady. She's not going to be someone's pet.  It would be a reversal for her character.

 

Anyways, here's what I see happening in response to your vision: 

Bran Them All happens in episode 3 at KL. KL is destroyed.

Cersei makes it out of the area.  Dany's army is obliterated as is Jon's and the Army of the Dead. Jon and Dany pursue the NK on dragonback probably to the far north where Jon and Dany fight him. The NK dies probably even one of Dany's dragons if not both of them maybe Jon/Dany too. Whatever the case, Cersei uses the opportunity to attack Winterfell and devastate it in 8 x 05. Sansa sends Jaime to negotiate with Cersei but also sending Arya to assassinate her and the Hound and Brienne go with Jaime as part of his guard. 

Jaime ends up killing Cersei himself before Arya has a chance to kill her and UnGregor kills Jaime with Brienne and the Hound fighting UnGregor after Jaime's been killed or dealt a mortal wound.

And then the ending is a result of who is left.

Like:

If only Dany survives then she becomes queen. 

If only Jon survives....idk.  

If they both survive then we have a full-blown Targaryen restoration.

If Dany and Jon are dead without a Targaryen baby then Sansa becomes queen maybe she marries a legitimized Gendry who knows.

If only the Targ baby survives then it'll probably be king/queen with a regent like Tyrion or maybe a Sansa/Tyrion combo with Sansa as regent as the baby's closest relative and Tyrion as the Hand or maybe just Tyrion as a regent.

 

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1 hour ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

The final episode has to make room for the epilogue though. I think this series will need most if not all of the last episode to tie everything up. The finale episode can't be packed with all the climaxes. Besides GRRM has talked about how anti-climatic he found the Scouring of the Shire at first but later learned to love it so it'll probably be something like that as in something that is seemingly anti-climatic.

And well if Jon/Dany are Aragorn then they won't be there for that part of the story as Aragorn wasn't at the Scouring of the Shire. That's something the leftover heroes dealt with. (And if I'm right and the Winterfell battle is episode 5 and the Battle of KL is episode 3 then why aren't they there in Winterfell unless they're either dead or their dragons are dead)

 

Sorry, Jon and Dany not being there brings up way too many questions.

Note: Cersei is probably going to die far before the end in the books so this isn't mandated by the plot but however D & D feel. (I could see her dying in early ADOS)

This is a tv show. Tv shows make their final episodes memorable. The final episode of GoT will be one of the biggest tv moments of all time. 

I have a hard time thinking this tv show won’t have its biggest stars in the final episode and that it will be pure epilogue. 

They have already perfected the model. Both 6x10 and 7x07 dedicated the first 30 minutes to a climax that capped the season and then the rest as epilogue. I personally expect the same for 8x06. 

Although who knows. 

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25 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

If there's only two battle episodes this season and the Winterfell battle involves the Golden Company and Lannisters attacking Winterfell then that begs several questions, where are the White Walkers? How the hell could the Golden Company get to Winterfell faster than the White Walkers? Why would Cersei/Euron do a pre-emptive strike before the White Walkers even attack Team Targaryen? Why is Cersei doing something as stupid as sending her armies in the middle of a war between two sides with dragons? How does Cersei know Jon and Daenerys aren't in Winterfell? 

None of this makes sense if Cersei is the one striking first because that means that the WW still aren't far south as of 8 x 03 and that the GC can avoid all of them because the North isn't overrun with WW. Also Cersei would have to be clairvoyant to know Daenerys isn't at Winterfell. Not accounting for bad writing then this is all highly unlikely. 

This is a good point, but how do we know Jon and Dany aren't in WF? They don't film chronologically? It could be Dany's dragons vs Golden Company vs WW? Cersei is impulsive, she isn't a good strategist or mentally stable. 

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8 minutes ago, TRILOGY said:

This is a good point, but how do we know Jon and Dany aren't in WF? They don't film chronologically? It could be Dany's dragons vs Golden Company vs WW? Cersei is impulsive, she isn't a good strategist or mentally stable. 

Well they haven't been seen there according to the filming leaks. I'll rescind part of my prediction if it's proven otherwise.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

This is a tv show. Tv shows make their final episodes memorable. The final episode of GoT will be one of the biggest tv moments of all time. 

I have a hard time thinking this tv show won’t have its biggest stars in the final episode and that it will be pure epilogue. 

They have already perfected the model. Both 6x10 and 7x07 dedicated the first 30 minutes to a climax that capped the season and then the rest as epilogue. I personally expect the same for 8x06. 

Although who knows. 

I'm basing part of this on what GRRM has said about emulating an ending like LOTR and D & D saying they're going to get close to GRRM's ending.

 

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38 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

Winterfell is protected by magic as it's been raised by Bran the Builder.

I assume NK's mark on Bran would allow him to breach the protective wards at Winterfell just as he breached the cave.

 

Quote

None of this makes sense if Cersei is the one striking first because that means that the WW still aren't far south as of 8 x 03 and that the GC can avoid all of them because the North isn't overrun with WW. Also Cersei would have to be clairvoyant to know Daenerys isn't at Winterfell. 

Cersei would likely be quite confident about her forces' chances against the dragons, so it's not clear she would wait until Dany was gone to order an attack. She knows the dragons can be killed, and she has anti-dragon weapons.

As for ordering the GC/Lannisters north, I agree, but if Cersei truly goes off the deep end, maybe she changes her mind about her plan.

 

Quote

 

I doubt that Arya is going to become the Lady of Winterfell because Bryan Cogman has said that the last interaction between Arya and Nymeria is foreshadowing for Arya:

Cogman: "Arya and Nymeria do and don’t have the connection they’ve always had. In the end, they’re both lone wolves. They can’t go back to the way things were. And that might be foreshadowing for Arya too."

Benioff: “Arya’s not domesticated and it makes total sense that her wolf wouldn’t be either. And once the wolf walks away, at first she’s heartbroken to have come this close,” said Weiss. “Then she realizes that the wolf is doing exactly what she would do.”

Williams: “Nymeria has created her own world and created her own pack and isn’t ready to be Arya’s pet. To be someone’s pet would reverse everything she’s learned. So they almost just regard each other and go their separate ways.”

 

I thought so, too, but Maisie Williams--who has one of the loosest tongues in the cast when it comes to accidentally revealing things--has implied that her character's ending was something she didn't see coming and that she had to go back to the beginning of the show to understand her character's S8 arc. If Arya does end up a wandering free spirit or just keeps on doing her own thing, that's something Maisie along with the rest of us would have foreseen. 

Arya becoming a lady after all, getting married and settling down, just as Ned predicted she would, in spite of her insistence that "That's not me," would be the real shocker, and it would be something that Maisie would find genuinely surprising. Maybe the writers' loud assertions that Arya is a lone wolf, can't be tamed, blah blah blah, are intended to throw viewers off the scent. It wouldn't be the first time D&D deliberately misled the audience about future plot points; they did the same thing with hyping Jon vs. Sansa at the end of S6. 

 

Quote

Bran Them All happens in episode 3 at KL. KL is destroyed.

Could be, but I doubt it. If KL and its million residents go up in flames on Cersei's watch, I doubt Cersei will be at her leisure to sit back and send away her soldiers to attack Winterfell, or that that's how she would react to KL being immolated and narrowly escaping with her life. If KL is indeed destroyed, that's an even bigger deal than Winterfell being destroyed...Not to the Starks, of course, but you know what I mean.

 

Quote

Sansa sends Jaime to negotiate with Cersei but also sending Arya to assassinate her and the Hound and Brienne go with Jaime as part of his guard. 

Arya never needed Sansa's orders to go after Cersei. Arya's struggle with revenge has been a big part of her arc, and going on one last revenge mission, this time on behalf of a sister with whom she had a difficult relationship at best, would be much more powerful and resonant for Arya's arc than Arya meekly trotting off to do Sansa's bidding as if she hasn't been planning on killing Cersei since Season 1.

 

8 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

I have a hard time thinking this tv show won’t have its biggest stars in the final episode and that it will be pure epilogue. 

They have already perfected the model. Both 6x10 and 7x07 dedicated the first 30 minutes to a climax that capped the season and then the rest as epilogue. I personally expect the same for 8x06. 

Although who knows. 

I want 60 minutes of pure epilogue, whether or not I get it. I think the fans have earned it. My nightmare is that Cersei spends half the episode dying, and all the surviving characters get two minutes' worth of scenes apiece where we learn their fates. I wouldn't put it past D&D.

 

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20 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

Well they haven't been seen there according to the filming leaks. I'll rescind part of my prediction if it's proven otherwise.

 

 

Kit was in Belfast during part of the time the Winterfell battle was being shot.

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40 minutes ago, Newstar said:

I assume NK's mark on Bran would allow him to breach the protective wards at Winterfell just as he breached the cave.

 

Cersei would likely be quite confident about her forces' chances against the dragons, so it's not clear she would wait until Dany was gone to order an attack. She knows the dragons can be killed, and she has anti-dragon weapons.

As for ordering the GC/Lannisters north, I agree, but if Cersei truly goes off the deep end, maybe she changes her mind about her plan.

 

I thought so, too, but Maisie Williams--who has one of the loosest tongues in the cast when it comes to accidentally revealing things--has implied that her character's ending was something she didn't see coming and that she had to go back to the beginning of the show to understand her character's S8 arc. If Arya does end up a wandering free spirit or just keeps on doing her own thing, that's something Maisie along with the rest of us would have foreseen. 

Arya becoming a lady after all, getting married and settling down, just as Ned predicted she would, in spite of her insistence that "That's not me," would be the real shocker, and it would be something that Maisie would find genuinely surprising. Maybe the writers' loud assertions that Arya is a lone wolf, can't be tamed, blah blah blah, are intended to throw viewers off the scent. It wouldn't be the first time D&D deliberately misled the audience about future plot points; they did the same thing with hyping Jon vs. Sansa at the end of S6. 

 

Could be, but I doubt it. If KL and its million residents go up in flames on Cersei's watch, I doubt Cersei will be at her leisure to sit back and send away her soldiers to attack Winterfell, or that that's how she would react to KL being immolated and narrowly escaping with her life. If KL is indeed destroyed, that's an even bigger deal than Winterfell being destroyed...Not to the Starks, of course, but you know what I mean.

 

Arya never needed Sansa's orders to go after Cersei. Arya's struggle with revenge has been a big part of her arc, and going on one last revenge mission, this time on behalf of a sister with whom she had a difficult relationship at best, would be much more powerful and resonant for Arya's arc than Arya meekly trotting off to do Sansa's bidding as if she hasn't been planning on killing Cersei since Season 1.

 

I want 60 minutes of pure epilogue, whether or not I get it. I think the fans have earned it. My nightmare is that Cersei spends half the episode dying, and all the surviving characters get two minutes' worth of scenes apiece where we learn their fates. I wouldn't put it past D&D.

 

Potentially, yes, but how long does the mark last? It could or could not work.

Cersei's anti-dragons weapons didn't work last time albeit it did wound them. Also why would she want to kill the dragons before they have a chance to wipe out the Others? The whole thing is lunacy. It could happen but it's dependent on how stupid Cersei is.

On Maisie's comments, I haven't seen those. Can you link that? The only thing I've seen from Maisie is her saying that the ending is different from what you expect it to be but may not be surprising. 

On D & D, I try not to go on the idea that they're lying or else I'm just going to end up letting my biases take control of what I want to happen.

Yeah, I would think Cersei sending her men to burn down Winterfell would be a reaction to KL being blown up and the Other being defeated with no dragons around to protect the North. 

I will say that that Scouring of the Shire was a smaller climax to the Battle of the Black Gate which was a bigger climax to the story.

I don't find that powerful at all. What you're describing is fridging Sansa so Arya will have more motivation to kill Cersei. Motivation that Arya already has and considering the idea that Jaime will kill her, it's going to end up a nothing burger for Arya.

 

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46 minutes ago, Newstar said:

Kit was in Belfast during part of the time the Winterfell battle was being shot.

It's Emiiia that I want to see and whether she has dragons with her. 

I kind of expect Jon Snow to survive the series but he may not end up an actual dragon rider in the show considering that Daenerys can control both dragons already.

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1 hour ago, Newstar said:

 

I want 60 minutes of pure epilogue, whether or not I get it. I think the fans have earned it. My nightmare is that Cersei spends half the episode dying, and all the surviving characters get two minutes' worth of scenes apiece where we learn their fates. I wouldn't put it past D&D.

 

After reading Fevre Dream and Dying of the Light I am not sure it is even in George’s style to do long epilogues 

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1 hour ago, jcmontea said:

After reading Fevre Dream and Dying of the Light I am not sure it is even in George’s style to do long epilogues 

.....good point 

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On 2/3/2018 at 11:17 PM, Lord_Ravenstone said:

I'm basing part of this on what GRRM has said about emulating an ending like LOTR and D & D saying they're going to get close to GRRM's ending.

Did D&D say they were going to get close to GRRM's ending? I know we all say it, and I know it's said that GRRM told them his ending (which honestly I don't understand how he could have, if he is a "grower of stories" he shouldn't really know the ending, it should happen organically, but that's neither here nor there) but I didn't know if D&D actually said it, just curious!

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On 2/4/2018 at 0:23 AM, Lord_Ravenstone said:

On Maisie's comments, I haven't seen those. Can you link that? The only thing I've seen from Maisie is her saying that the ending is different from what you expect it to be but may not be surprising. (...)

I don't find that powerful at all. What you're describing is fridging Sansa so Arya will have more motivation to kill Cersei. Motivation that Arya already has and considering the idea that Jaime will kill her, it's going to end up a nothing burger for Arya.

 

Maisie has done a number of interviews recently, so I couldn't tell you. The vibe I got from her talking about how she needed to get her brain around Arya's S8 arc, how she had to go back to the first season, etc. was that the ending was a WTF moment for her, and she had to view the series as a whole to make sense of it.

Eh, if a female character is killed off in a way that's an organic end to her arc, is it fridging? Sansa dying at Winterfell, the place she was once so desperate to escape in S1, would be the natural conclusion to her story. That it would fit nicely into a revenge mission to KL is a bonus.

 

On 2/4/2018 at 1:31 AM, jcmontea said:

After reading Fevre Dream and Dying of the Light I am not sure it is even in George’s style to do long epilogues 

True, but LOTR had a leisurely, long epilogue, so I think ASOIAF will as well.

 

58 minutes ago, TRILOGY said:

Kit is in Croatia, will update with more info later. 

Not only is Kit in Croatia, Emilia is not. She's heading to London, where she has an event on Thursday. Start your "Dany dies!!!!!" tinfoil now.

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57 minutes ago, btfu806 said:

Did D&D say they were going to get close to GRRM's ending? I know we all say it, and I know it's said that GRRM told them his ending (which honestly I don't understand how he could have, if he is a "grower of stories" he shouldn't really know the ending, it should happen organically, but that's neither here nor there) but I didn't know if D&D actually said it, just curious!

"You have to remember that I started writing this story in 1991 and I first met David Benioff and Dan Weiss in 2007. I was living with these characters and this world for 16 years before we even started working on the show. They’re pretty fixed in my mind and I’m not going to change anything because of the show, or reaction to the show, or what fans think. I’m just still writing the story that I set out to write in the early 1990s." - George 

"In the case of any of my novels, I know where I’m starting from, I know where I want to end up, more or less. I know some of the big turning points along the way, the stuff I’m building for, but you discover an awful lot along the way." - George

"Yes, I mean, I did partly joke when I said I don't know where I was going. I know the broad strokes, and I've known the broad strokes since 1991. I know who's going to be on the Iron Throne. I know who's gonna win some of the battles, I know the major characters, who's gonna die and how they're gonna die, and who's gonna get married and all that. The major characters. Of course along the way I made up a lot of minor characters, you know, did I know in 1991 how Bronn, what was gonna happen to Bronn? No, I didn't even know there'd be a guy named Bronn." - George

“Last year we went out to Santa Fe for a week to sit down with [Martin] and just talk through where things are going, because we don’t know if we are going to catch up and where exactly that would be," Benioff says in the April issue of Vanity Fair. "If you know the ending, then you can lay the groundwork for it. And so we want to know how everything ends. We want to be able to set things up. So we just sat down with him and literally went through every character.” - D&D

Edited by TRILOGY

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