Lady Ren Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 6 hours ago, alienarea said: If Tyrion betrayed the Starks, that would be connected to the fall of Winterfell, wouldn't it? Thats why i think the betrayal is to the Starks. Starks --> Dany. I am sticking to the belief that this meeting takes place in 8x04. 8x06 is too late for Tyrion's execution. This also lines up with the legit spoilers about Jamie possibly dying in 8x04. There is a skirmish causing death for which Tyrion is held responsible, maybe. Otherwise I can't come up with a logical reason as to why Dany and Jon arent there. The show has not forshadowed Jons second death. Thr opposite, Jon is not allowed to die. Thorne at his execution - "you will be fighting their battles for years to come". Maybe I got that wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 Jon told Mel he didn't want to be brought back a second time....that seems like the show's idea of foreshadowing to me. There is no logical reason that neither Jon nor Dany would be present for Tyrion's trial, that doesn't mean the show won't do it anyway, but it still will decrease the drama since most of the people mentioned in the leak don't have much connection to Tyrion other than Sansa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grail King Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 4 hours ago, DisneyDoc2425 said: Please see Friki's English videos from 9/7 (his mention of it being held after the wars and WF is starting to be rebuilt) and 9/15. He reports the meeting is in the Dragonpit at Kings Landing which is the seat of power in the Iron Throne. With all the destruction reportedly to take place around Kings Landing perhaps it is the only place left standing (just my thought). All this is obviously dependent on Friki's source being reliable coupled with some of his own thoughts (embellishments?) about some of the ideas he presented. Personally I have my own doubts about the validity of all he said. But is does seem pretty likely (reported on other sites) that something is going to occur in the Dragonpit. I saw that version, someone stated ( maybe not here ) he did another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmontea Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 51 minutes ago, Cas Stark said: Jon told Mel he didn't want to be brought back a second time....that seems like the show's idea of foreshadowing to me. There is no logical reason that neither Jon nor Dany would be present for Tyrion's trial, that doesn't mean the show won't do it anyway, but it still will decrease the drama since most of the people mentioned in the leak don't have much connection to Tyrion other than Sansa. No logical reason is an extreme statement. Dany wants to break the wheel. What helped cause the wars we see in Westeros? Kings serving as capricious judges of their nobles. Aerys conducting a farce of a trial with Brandon and Rickard Stark. Joffrey deciding at the last minute to have Ned executed. What is one way to solve that? Have nobles judged by their peers and seperate judicial power from the monarchy so that it serves as check on the sovereign. What is one way to show that? Not have the monarchs present and judging someone they accused of treason. That seems like a very logical reason completley grounded in the narrative and character motivation for why Jon and Dany would not be at the trial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DisneyDoc2425 Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 1 hour ago, jcmontea said: No logical reason is an extreme statement. Dany wants to break the wheel. What helped cause the wars we see in Westeros? Kings serving as capricious judges of their nobles. Aerys conducting a farce of a trial with Brandon and Rickard Stark. Joffrey deciding at the last minute to have Ned executed. What is one way to solve that? Have nobles judged by their peers and seperate judicial power from the monarchy so that it serves as check on the sovereign. What is one way to show that? Not have the monarchs present and judging someone they accused of treason. That seems like a very logical reason completley grounded in the narrative and character motivation for why Jon and Dany would not be at the trial. According to Friki Tyrion was confronted and accused of treason by Jon, Daenerys, Sansa, and Arya. If you are going to have a really fair trial it would seem logical to me that Tyrion has a right to be able to hear from and question all his accusers/witnesses at the trial. Now if these individuals agreed to recuse themselves from any trial decision that would be fine with me but IMHO they all should be there. Perhaps we can agree that logic doesn't always have the same end point, especially as there are so many unknowns about what we are going to see in Season 8 with final character arcs (IMHO especially true for Daenerys. I'd love to have her become totally egalitarian but have concerns that this is not going to happen). I'm fine with that. Should be very exciting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DisneyDoc2425 Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 3 hours ago, Grail King said: I saw that version, someone stated ( maybe not here ) he did another. Friki released a third video on 9/21 in Spanish with his perspective that in addition to Tyrion's trial the meeting also addressed dividing up Westeros into a new political system and the distribution of lands thereof. See posts 1024 thru 1030 on this thread for comments about it by others. How much of this is from his leaker source and how much is just his own theory seems to me unclear. There is also debate about what he really meant by his comments with different interpretations by others due to different translations of his comments into English. It would be nice if he came out with an English version which might clear some things up (but I haven't heard he was planning on doing this). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alienarea Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 1 hour ago, DisneyDoc2425 said: According to Friki Tyrion was confronted and accused of treason by Jon, Daenerys, Sansa, and Arya. If you are going to have a really fair trial it would seem logical to me that Tyrion has a right to be able to hear from and question all his accusers/witnesses at the trial. Now if these individuals agreed to recuse themselves from any trial decision that would be fine with me but IMHO they all should be there. Perhaps we can agree that logic doesn't always have the same end point, especially as there are so many unknowns about what we are going to see in Season 8 with final character arcs (IMHO especially true for Daenerys. I'd love to have her become totally egalitarian but have concerns that this is not going to happen). I'm fine with that. Should be very exciting. Just a thought, assuming Frikidoctor is right: - Jon, Daenerys, Arya and Sansa accuse Tyrion of treason when the Lannister soldiers attack Winterfell. Then the Night King and his army attack as well and everyone has to escape. S8E3? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Ren Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 6 hours ago, jcmontea said: No logical reason is an extreme statement. Dany wants to break the wheel. What helped cause the wars we see in Westeros? Kings serving as capricious judges of their nobles. Aerys conducting a farce of a trial with Brandon and Rickard Stark. Joffrey deciding at the last minute to have Ned executed. What is one way to solve that? Have nobles judged by their peers and seperate judicial power from the monarchy so that it serves as check on the sovereign. What is one way to show that? Not have the monarchs present and judging someone they accused of treason. That seems like a very logical reason completley grounded in the narrative and character motivation for why Jon and Dany would not be at the trial. There is no separation of monarchy and court system if the "judges" are the monarchs siblings and emmisaries. Jon and Dany are present by proxy if alive. I dont see Dany agreeing to any system of checks and balances. Jon himself accused Sansa of "undermining" him when she wanted to punish Bolton bannermen. The wars in Westetos happened because it is time for the dawn of a new era. I agree. I dont see how Dany waging war on Cersei is her breaking the wheel though. Even after seeing the Wight she refused helping jon until cersei agreed to a truce. Thats excelent "for the common man" ruling. Not. She is a god in her own eyes. Not sure how that works in the favour of her followers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Error-504 Posted September 25, 2018 Share Posted September 25, 2018 On 9/23/2018 at 6:48 PM, Lady Ren said: There is no separation of monarchy and court system if the "judges" are the monarchs siblings and emmisaries. Jon and Dany are present by proxy if alive. I dont see Dany agreeing to any system of checks and balances. Jon himself accused Sansa of "undermining" him when she wanted to punish Bolton bannermen. The wars in Westetos happened because it is time for the dawn of a new era. I agree. I dont see how Dany waging war on Cersei is her breaking the wheel though. Even after seeing the Wight she refused helping jon until cersei agreed to a truce. Thats excelent "for the common man" ruling. Not. She is a god in her own eyes. Not sure how that works in the favour of her followers. Are we even watching the same show? She pledged to help Jon long before meeting with Cersie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadAssRobinArryn Posted September 27, 2018 Share Posted September 27, 2018 On 9/23/2018 at 4:52 AM, Grail King said: OKay, what makes him think that?, did he mention any major costume changes, or scene changes, was this scene still in the DP? He said that he believes the meeting takes place after the war, because the snow is melting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 28, 2018 Share Posted September 28, 2018 I can believe in a Tyrion trial but I can also believe that he will be convicted by Dany for something relatively minor that is not worthy of a "high crime." He could betray Dany because of his fears about her becoming like her father. If that's the case, the audience will sympathize with him. If he betrays the Starks, it could be because Jon chooses his family after the R+L=J reveal. Then he would be doing it in the service of helping Dany and he would also look sympathetic, albeit less so than the former. His worst crime was killing Shae and he has to pay for that eventually, even if it's for a relatively minor charge. If he has an honest moment with himself, he would die knowing what his real crime was. Since the last few executions in the show involved: 1) a beheading/hanging (by Jon) 2) saving someone from fire (by Jon), 3) Arya/Sansa/Bran working together, and 4) the Tarlys, my guess is that Jon charges at Dany with Rhaegal to stop her from executing Tyrion by dragonfire. Arya swoops in to pass the sentence/swing the sword, like the Littlefinger trial, and Tyrion dies in a much more humane way. This could suggest that the Starks still seek justice but the alliance has fractured because of how Dany wants to deliver it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 28, 2018 Share Posted September 28, 2018 On 9/24/2018 at 7:45 PM, Error-504 said: Are we even watching the same show? She pledged to help Jon long before meeting with Cersie. she wasn't really "pledged". She made it clear that she wanted Cersei to agree to her terms before she helped him. What would Dany do if the ceasefire didnt go her way? Thats probably why Jon was throwing shade at her with that "promises" speech. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Error-504 Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 4 hours ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said: she wasn't really "pledged". She made it clear that she wanted Cersei to agree to her terms before she helped him. What would Dany do if the ceasefire didnt go her way? Thats probably why Jon was throwing shade at her with that "promises" speech. Pul-lease!! Dany " We are going to destroy the night King, we will do it together, you have my word". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear Claw Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 22 minutes ago, Error-504 said: Pul-lease!! Dany " We are going to destroy the night King, we will do it together, you have my word". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmontea Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 2 hours ago, Bear Claw said: Sounds like she feels she would be in a real pickle without the armistace as she knows the threat beyond the wall is real now and can’t ignore it but she knows doing so means handing Westeros to Cersei. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 4 minutes ago, jcmontea said: Sounds like she feels she would be in a real pickle without the armistace as she knows the threat beyond the wall is real now and can’t ignore it but she knows doing so means handing Westeros to Cersei. Yes that's exactly what it sounds like: she can't make up her mind. Dany needs to get her priorities straight. Cersei can just sit there for a few months. Who cares. There's an apocalypse going on. That ceasefire is a waste of everyone's time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmontea Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 1 hour ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said: DYes that's exactly what it sounds like: she can't make up her mind. Dany needs to get her priorities straight. Cersei can just sit there for a few months. Who cares. There's an apocalypse going on. That ceasefire is a waste of everyone's time. Thats a very extreme interpretation of that scene. That is the first time these people are wrestling with the fact that the armistace effort is going to be a failure. There is a lot of emotion one has to process when you are in the crucible like that. It strikes me as unreasonably critical to criticise someone for taking the full magnitude of a shitty situation and trying to process it all. Especially when the woman lost her dragon both to save the man she is talking to and so that the whole effort would be a success. She didn’t need to make a decision there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 18 minutes ago, jcmontea said: That is the first time these people are wrestling with the fact that the armistace effort is going to be a failure. There is a lot of emotion one has to process when you are in the crucible like that. She needs to get used to it if she wants to be queen. She's going to have to make split second decisions under pressure. That's the job. She already made a poor one: she shouldn't even be having political meetings in the South after she saw what the realm is facing. Jon thought whoever saw the Night King would understand the threat. Its an easy decision: fight this guy, immediately. There is nothing else that's more important. But she's still hedging? Dany is going to all this effort to be betrayed anyway. I might say it's pathetic, but I'll just go with sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSlayerofLies Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 27 minutes ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said: She already made a poor one: she shouldn't even be having political meetings in the South after she saw what the realm is facing. How is that a poor decision? The meeting had already been set before she went north of the Wall. Capturing the wight cost her one of her dragons, and if they don't follow through then Viserion would have died for nothing. Daenerys also knows little about Cersei so she's relying on Tyrion's knowledge of her to gauge whether or not she'll agree to an armistice. And in the end Cersei managed to fool Dany, Tyrion, Jon, and Jaime. If anything, with the benefit of hindsight, the poor decision is that Cersei was not dealt with in a swift manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 16 minutes ago, TheSlayerofLies said: How is that a poor decision? The meeting had already been set before she went north of the Wall. Capturing the wight cost her one of her dragons, and if they don't follow through then Viserion would have died for nothing. Daenerys also knows little about Cersei so she's relying on Tyrion's knowledge of her to gauge whether or not she'll agree to an armistice. And in the end Cersei managed to fool Dany, Tyrion, Jon, and Jaime. If anything, with the benefit of hindsight, the poor decision is that Cersei was not dealt with in a swift manner. The idea that Dany has to go through the motions just so her dragon's death can have some sort of meaning for her is hilariously stupid. Just go kill the fucking bad guy who killed her dragon and who is threatening HER kingdom if she wants it to have meaning. It was a poor decision to trust Cersei at all. Basically Dany went through all that effort to get Cersei to lie to her. Notice that Jon never once says he's going South to make deals with Cersei or even wants her armies to help in the war. Notice that he himself refuses to make deals with her. Notice how bending the knee still wasn't enough to get Dany North without Cersei's ceasefire. And since Dany is still apparently going South when he wakes up on the boat, he probably didnt believe a word out of her mouth when she made that "pledge." Dany is the most powerful person in the world right now and she's acting like it revolves around her. It does not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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