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Season 8: News, Spoilers And Leaks

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21 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

"The tale grew in the telling."

Why would the outline have specified? It's an outline not a novel. An outline designed to get publishers interested which GRRM has said he made up on the fly.

And we have good reason to be skeptical of GRRM's claim that he made it up on the fly, for the reasons I've said, particularly since it gives away 1) Ned isn't Jon's dad and 2) the main five survive. I mean, come on. What else is he going to say? "I can't believe some jerk leaked the outline and spoiled a good chunk of my ending"? I can't blame him for trying to downplay its significance, but those assertions cannot be taken at face value. It's like Kit's ridiculous claims before S7 aired that they'd shot 500 minutes of fake footage, or however he put it: the Lads leaks were widely known, and he was trying to throw fans off the scent.

 

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If Cat and Ned are dead, the terms surviving Starks would still apply.

Well, no, because the phrase "the surviving Starks" is not qualified. If Sansa isn't with them wherever Tyrion is, she's not one of the surviving Starks.

 

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I doubt Sansa was a minor character even in the outline by virtue of the fact that she's actually mentioned in the outline, strikes a friendship with Tyrion and is married to Joffrey. A minor character is someone like Bronn.

Relatively minor. Viserys, Drogo and Joffrey are also named in the outline, and they're all minor characters relative to the leads.

 

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I mean what are you going to think if the series ends with Sansa ruling Winterfell? That GRRM lied? Or that you were wrong?

That's not going to happen, for the reasons I've stated. GRRM planned an ending without Sansa, an ending to which he apparently plans on adhering.

Edited by Newstar

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2 minutes ago, Newstar said:

Relatively minor. Viserys, Drogo and Joffrey are also named in the outline, and they're all minor characters relative to the leads.

Well, she's an important character now, and that's what matters. 

In the books? She's a POV character with 25 chapters, followed by Bran Stark with 21 chapters.

In the show? She's 4th in terms of screen time, followed by Cersei.

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Regarding Sansa, and I can't believe we are AGAIN talking about this. You simply can't allow yourself to put more weight on 2-page-long outline rather than on 5 volumes we have. And in the volumes, following the themes, patterns, GRRM's writing, Sansa is the main character. Not only that she walks the same path Arya and Bran are (children honing their skills in order to use them when the time comes) but all of them narratively fit the idea of "children growing up and changing the world around them" which is the main theme of ASOIAF. The sheer number of Sansa's POV chapter, the emphasis on her growth, positioning her next to the story's great villain, giving her weapons necessary to take him down and even considering her smart and capable enough to take him down speaks volumes. Simply, the story we have now, Sansa we have now, can't be analyzed through the lenses of GRRM's idea from 20+ years ago. 

Killing Sansa in battle would be truly and I mean hilariously anticlimactic. It would be the same as Jon or Dany slipping on frozen snow and breaking the neck.

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1 hour ago, Risto said:

Regarding Sansa, and I can't believe we are AGAIN talking about this. You simply can't allow yourself to put more weight on 2-page-long outline rather than on 5 volumes we have. And in the volumes, following the themes, patterns, GRRM's writing, Sansa is the main character. Not only that she walks the same path Arya and Bran are (children honing their skills in order to use them when the time comes) but all of them narratively fit the idea of "children growing up and changing the world around them" which is the main theme of ASOIAF. The sheer number of Sansa's POV chapter, the emphasis on her growth, positioning her next to the story's great villain, giving her weapons necessary to take him down and even considering her smart and capable enough to take him down speaks volumes. Simply, the story we have now, Sansa we have now, can't be analyzed through the lenses of GRRM's idea from 20+ years ago. 

Killing Sansa in battle would be truly and I mean hilariously anticlimactic. It would be the same as Jon or Dany slipping on frozen snow and breaking the neck.

Sansa is the main character? 

Lol.... oh man. That is the funniest thing I have heard in a while. 

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2 hours ago, Risto said:

Killing Sansa in battle would be truly and I mean hilariously anticlimactic. It would be the same as Jon or Dany slipping on frozen snow and breaking the neck.

But that was actually one of her many visions in the House of the Undying - that she would slip on sno...

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Why would the outline be so important? Jaime from the outline is Cersei in the novel, Tyrion not falling for Arya is a major deviaition, and sure, Jon could still have something  with Arya l (which I doubt now) but there are many things that don't match now.

So I don't think that at this point the importance of Sansa there means she is gonna die or not, now she is a major character who has developed her own story. It's better to focus on the actual plot. We just can't know which things from the outline are gonna be true, possibly nothing from that, or some things, who knows.

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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5 hours ago, TRILOGY said:

The Dubrovnik Times reports that filming in Dubrovnik began earlier this morning “under a veil of secrecy,” so much so that we have no idea which actors are involved, but according to Dulist, Kit and Isaac were spotted there. We know today’s shoot involved one or more scenes from episodes one, two and/or four, as those are the ones David Nutter is directing, and that Cersei is still in charge of the capital. The locations turned into sets are Dubrovnik’s West Harbor, a familiar site between the Bokar and Lovrijenac fortresses, and the Bokar fortress itself, which has also been used often in the show, most recently when Cersei and Jaime awaited Euron’s fleet in the premiere of season seven. According to The Dubrovnik Times, other locations are rumored to be involved in the following days. It's possible that there will be night shoots. [Source: X, X]

Episode 4 is a good bet, and sometimes they use footage by one director for another episode. 

Isaac in Dubrovnik? OMG I'm excited!

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I am always baffled when people tell me that Sansa will die based on he first outline from 1945. IF we are taking that outline seriously, then I could see her and Jon Snow getting married in the end. 

Sansa entire arc in the books is about learning the political game of Westeros and becoming  a great player herself. She grew up in the North, went to Kings Landing, later spends time in the Vale. Thats 3 very important regions of the Kingdom that she personal living experience and she still has personal connections with Riverland from her Tully family. Show me a character in the whole series that has that many political connection.

In Kings Landing she was able to watch closely people like Tywin, Cersei, Jofreey, Varys and she was able to see how to act and more important, how not to act as a ruler. While there she even became great frinds with The Tyrells. Her chapters in the Vale are also very good and Littlefinger is teaching her to be political savy and how to use diplomacy (you know, that little art on politics that makes wars and carnage avoidable) yes the show is crap about showing that side of her, but in the books she charms all the High Lords in the Vale as a bastard girl.

In season 7 they made sure to show her rulling the North, preparing the country for winter, caring for food and provisions.  She was able to calm all the Lords that were angry at Jon Snow, she listen to what they have to say, respect their opinions but assures them that in the end they must be loyal to their King Jon Snow and follow his command. They liked her so much they wanted to make her Queen. She is clever, polite, charming, diplomatic and respectful. Not everybody will have magic powers or be warriors but the realm still needs people who can be diplomatic and resolve conflicts without going to war. Thats Sansa Stark role in the future. How is she a less character than Arya or Daenerys I just dont know. Sansa could actually rule the fucking country. Now, do I believe she will sit on the Iron Throne? no, but I am pretty sure she will be queen. And she will make the people love her, just like she said in the books.

 

 

Edited by prettylongclaw

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BTW, It seems that gwendoline christie  posted a very unsubtle #hearmeroar hashtag on twitter a few days after the s08 scripts came out. If she and Jaime ended up togheter that would make me reallly happy. Does anyone have more spoilers aout them?

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32 minutes ago, prettylongclaw said:

BTW, It seems that gwendoline christie  posted a very unsubtle #hearmeroar hashtag on twitter a few days after the s08 scripts came out. If she and Jaime ended up togheter that would make me reallly happy. Does anyone have more spoilers aout them?

There's a Brienne-Jaime forum, they probably know more than I do but they were both in Belfast at the same time, so that's good. ^_^

Edited by TRILOGY

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4 minutes ago, TRILOGY said:

There's a Brienne-Jaime forum, they probably know more than I do but they were both in Belfast at the same time, so that's good. ^_^

Thank you!!!

 

PS I do have to admit that I am surprised by the level of secrecy of this season. They are doing a very good job at keeping everything hidden, at least what can be hidden. By this time last season we knew it everything!!!

Edited by prettylongclaw

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1 hour ago, prettylongclaw said:

I am always baffled when people tell me that Sansa will die based on he first outline from 1945. IF we are taking that outline seriously, then I could see her and Jon Snow getting married in the end. 

Sansa entire arc in the books is about learning the political game of Westeros and becoming  a great player herself. She grew up in the North, went to Kings Landing, later spends time in the Vale. Thats 3 very important regions of the Kingdom that she personal living experience and she still has personal connections with Riverland from her Tully family. Show me a character in the whole series that has that many political connection.

In Kings Landing she was able to watch closely people like Tywin, Cersei, Jofreey, Varys and she was able to see how to act and more important, how not to act as a ruler. While there she even became great frinds with The Tyrells. Her chapters in the Vale are also very good and Littlefinger is teaching her to be political savy and how to use diplomacy (you know, that little art on politics that makes wars and carnage avoidable) yes the show is crap about showing that side of her, but in the books she charms all the High Lords in the Vale as a bastard girl.

In season 7 they made sure to show her rulling the North, preparing the country for winter, caring for food and provisions.  She was able to calm all the Lords that were angry at Jon Snow, she listen to what they have to say, respect their opinions but assures them that in the end they must be loyal to their King Jon Snow and follow his command. They liked her so much they wanted to make her Queen. She is clever, polite, charming, diplomatic and respectful. Not everybody will have magic powers or be warriors but the realm still needs people who can be diplomatic and resolve conflicts without going to war. Thats Sansa Stark role in the future. How is she a less character than Arya or Daenerys I just dont know. Sansa could actually rule the fucking country. Now, do I believe she will sit on the Iron Throne? no, but I am pretty sure she will be queen. And she will make the people love her, just like she said in the books.

 

 

Of course George Martin would never be the sort of person to kill off a sympathetic point of view character in the final stretch of the story to create some unpredictibility. 

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17 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

Of course George Martin would never be the sort of person to kill off a sympathetic point of view character in the final stretch of the story to create some unpredictibility. 

But all her education in politics would be a waste of time. Thats what I am talking about it, not really if would be sympathetic or not. No one in the books spent  more time than Sansa learning the Game of Thrones and now she is actually putting in practice. In a writing point of view I just cant see her dying. Not to mention Maisie Williams happy interview where she stated that she really like it the end "depending on what side you pick you will either have all your dreams come true, or you will be disappointed."

 I dont see any of the Starks kids dying to be honest, like they said in the finale "The pack survives"

Edited by prettylongclaw

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16 minutes ago, prettylongclaw said:

But all her education in politics would be a waste of time. Thats what I am talking about it, not really if would be sympathetic or not. No one in the books spent  more time than Sansa learning the Game of Thrones and now she is actually putting in practice. In a writing point of view I just cant see her dying. Not to mention Maisie Williams happy interview where she stated that she really like it the end "depending on what side you pick you will either have all your dreams come true, or you will be disappointed."

 I dont see any of the Starks kids dying to be honest, like they said in the finale "The pack survives"

Would it be a waste of time? 

This story does not seem like one that would endorse the view that the point of living is what it results in vs. the experience of just living. 

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30 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

Would it be a waste of time? 

This story does not seem like one that would endorse the view that the point of living is what it results in vs. the experience of just living. 

For some characters? sure, for the main? no. George has an arc for all of them. Sansa arc is the political game. There is a reason they made sure to show us her rulling Winterfell so well and having all the Lords in the North loving her, this will be played out in season 8. She isnt dying and I will be chocked if she is not queen or warden of the North

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7 hours ago, jcmontea said:

Sansa is the main character? 

Lol.... oh man. That is the funniest thing I have heard in a while. 

Well, if you count Bran and Arya, you have to count Sansa... Simple logic. 

3 hours ago, jcmontea said:

Would it be a waste of time? 

This story does not seem like one that would endorse the view that the point of living is what it results in vs. the experience of just living. 

The thing is that Sansa, as a character, still hasn't reached the point of being useless. Even in TV show, we know she can prepare the North for upcoming disaster, we know she can provide support for the armies and that she is rather good at it. We also know that she can quell the anger, without antagonizing the Northern lords. So, it boils down to what you think her role will be in the future. I don't think Sansa is superfluous for the plot of ASOIAF. And I don't think she has still overstayed her welcome.

 

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7 hours ago, prettylongclaw said:

For some characters? sure, for the main? no. George has an arc for all of them. Sansa arc is the political game. There is a reason they made sure to show us her rulling Winterfell so well and having all the Lords in the North loving her, this will be played out in season 8. She isnt dying and I will be chocked if she is not queen or warden of the North

Sansa helped win back Winterfell for her family already and used her skills as a lady to prepare WF for the long winter ahead and keep the anorth together for when Jon comes back. Additionally the main conflict for her of choosing her family over her ambition was resolved in season 7. She could easily die now and her arc can easily be complete. she doesn’t need to use her skills for something bigger and better. There is no greater political game she has to use her skills for. 

Will she die? Who knows. It is a pure storytelling choice on the part of the author and as such unpredictable. All the more so since this author deliberately strives to be unpredictable. But there is nothing inherent that makes her unkillable at this point other than a desire to see her story go somewhere else and her skills used for something bigger and better than just retaking winterfell and keeping the northern alliance together. 

Edited by jcmontea

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16 hours ago, Risto said:

Regarding Sansa, and I can't believe we are AGAIN talking about this. You simply can't allow yourself to put more weight on 2-page-long outline rather than on 5 volumes we have. And in the volumes, following the themes, patterns, GRRM's writing, Sansa is the main character.

"Sansa is the main character"? LOL, no.

 

Quote

Simply, the story we have now, Sansa we have now, can't be analyzed through the lenses of GRRM's idea from 20+ years ago. 

Sure it can, because GRRM has always said that the ending has always been the same. If the outline implies that Sansa was meant to die in 1993, she was meant to die in 1991 (when GRRM came up with the ending), and she's likely still meant to die. Even if she doesn't die, for GRRM's original ending to remain undisturbed by sparing Sansa, she can't end up with Winterfell, and she can't end up as queen (since those slots would be reserved for his real main characters, the big five). 

It's all pretty simple.

1. GRRM has always had the same ending since 1991.

2. He planned on killing off Sansa in 1993, so a dead Sansa was part of his original ending.

3. Therefore, he either still plans on still killing off Sansa (most likely), or on giving her an ending that doesn't conflict with his original ending, which presumably included who got Winterfell (Bran or Arya), who ended up as queen (Dany), etc.

4. Given that all the outline characters who died still ended up dead in the published books, if Outline Sansa died, ASOIAF Sansa is going to die as well.

 

13 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Why would the outline be so important?

Because it gives away that GRRM planned on five lead characters surviving and strongly implied that GRRM planned on Sansa dying. If the ending's the same as in 1993--and GRRM said many times before the outline leaked that it is--then Sansa won't be a part of it, either at all (as I suspect) or in any significant way. She can still survive if she's irrelevant, for example if she runs off with the Hound never to be heard from again, but how likely is that?

 

11 hours ago, prettylongclaw said:

I am always baffled when people tell me that Sansa will die based on he first outline from 1945. IF we are taking that outline seriously, then I could see her and Jon Snow getting married in the end. 

Well, no, because it shows GRRM planned on killing Sansa off, and that she can't therefore be a part of his ending in any significant way: no Winterfell and no crown.

 

11 hours ago, TRILOGY said:

There's a Brienne-Jaime forum, they probably know more than I do but they were both in Belfast at the same time, so that's good. ^_^

NCW and Gwendoline filmed together one week in Belfast in January that we know of (when the Winterfell battle stuff was being shot). There is likely more.

 

10 hours ago, jcmontea said:

Of course George Martin would never be the sort of person to kill off a sympathetic point of view character in the final stretch of the story to create some unpredictibility. 

And GRRM said in the outline that he intended to kill off sympathetic POV characters, BUT that five characters would live through all three (as then planned) volumes. Sansa was left off that list of safe characters, even though three Starks made it on, so that again is yet another strong indication that he planned on killing her off.

Edited by Newstar

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Photos of Kit filming in Dubrovnik! He's filming on some kind of staircase. LOL at his high heeled boots. I don't know who those guys in black costumes with him are supposed to be. No other lead actors in the shot.

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15 minutes ago, Newstar said:

Photos of Kit filming in Dubrovnik! He's filming on some kind of staircase. LOL at his high heeled boots. I don't know who those guys in black costumes with him are supposed to be. No other lead actors in the shot.

There are two blurry pics of what could be Daenerys as well.... or just an example of a Rorschach test with people wanting to see her

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