Season 8: News, Spoilers And Leaks

[alienarea]

If the Night's King is coming after one person, in my opinion it has to be Daenerys Targaryen, the prince(ss) who was promised.

The books are called "The Song of Ice and Fire", who else could it be?

[Jô Maltese]

2 minutes ago, alienarea said:

If the Night's King is coming after one person, in my opinion it has to be Daenerys Targaryen, the prince(ss) who was promised.

The books are called "The Song of Ice and Fire", who else could it be?

Nice try. Jon is the PTWP, Jon is the SoIaF, it is known. 

[alienarea]

23 minutes ago, Jô Maltese said:

Nice try. Jon is the PTWP, Jon is the SoIaF, it is known. 

We will see.

 

[BalerionTheCat]

16 hours ago, Mystical said:

When I call the characters stupid, I'm clearly referring to the plot (aka writing).

I agree. The writing is often stupid. Maybe because they can't do better. Maybe because they don't care. I've been told the average viewer doesn't recognize many characters. Certainly, because they don't want everybody knowing the end before it airs. The show characters are doing things stupid. OK. I remember what they are in the books. And let go. I'm just hoping the end will be what it should be. Not long to wait now.

[Ser Gareth]

2 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I agree. The writing is often stupid. Maybe because they can't do better. Maybe because they don't care. I've been told the average viewer doesn't recognize many characters. Certainly, because they don't want everybody knowing the end before it airs. The show characters are doing things stupid. OK. I remember what they are in the books. And let go. I'm just hoping the end will be what it should be. Not long to wait now.

The average book reader is the same.  On this forum we are obsessive (which is why we spend some of our spare time discussing it).  The vast majority of people who have read any of the books, have read them once.

The other thing is that obsession has been born by the delays between books.  Countless re-reads etc.  I first read AGOT in 1998 and I have lost count of the amount of re-reads I've done.  May well be into treble figures.

It actually occurred to me the other day that since the show has over taken the books I've barely read the books at all.  About the only positive thing about having to wait so long for each damn book was re-reading to see if you could find some previously unseen clue to a mystery.  Now that those mysteries are being revealed by the show that positive thing has now gone.

[Shmedricko]

21 hours ago, alienarea said:

If the Night's King is coming after one person, in my opinion it has to be Daenerys Targaryen, the prince(ss) who was promised.

The books are called "The Song of Ice and Fire", who else could it be?

21 hours ago, Jô Maltese said:

Nice try. Jon is the PTWP, Jon is the SoIaF, it is known. 

In Season 6 Episode 4, Melisandre explicitly says that Jon is the prince that was promised:

Quote

MELISANDRE: I will do as Jon Snow commands.

DAVOS: You serve Jon Snow now?

MELISANDRE: He's the prince that was promised.

DAVOS: Forgive me, my lady, I thought that was Stannis. (S6E4)

And then in the very next episode, Season 6 Episode 5, Kinvara explicitly says that Daenerys is the one who was promised:

Quote

KINVARA: You don't need to persuade me. I came to help. Daenerys Stormborn is the one who was promised. From the fire she was reborn to remake the world. [...]

VARYS: A man named Stannis Baratheon was anointed as the chosen one by one of your priestesses. He, too, had a glorious destiny. He attacked King's Landing and was soundly defeated by the man standing beside me. Last I had heard, he had been defeated again, this time at Winterfell and this time for good. [...] I suppose it's hard for a fanatic to admit a mistake. Isn't that the whole point of being a fanatic? You're always right. Everything is the Lord's will.

KINVARA: Everything is the Lord's will. But men and women make mistakes. Even honest servants of the Lord.

VARYS: And you, an honest servant of the Lord, why should I trust you to know any more than the priestess who counseled Stannis? (S6E5)

(Both proclamations are followed by references to Melisandre being previously wrong about the prophecy.)

Unless one believes that the show would casually state the true identity of the prince that was promised well before the last season, Jon and Dany are not viable candidates for the prophecy.

But their child could be.

Quote

DAENERYS: What does your lord expect from me?

MELISANDRE: The Long Night is coming. Only the prince who was promised can bring the dawn.

DAENERYS: "The prince who was promised will bring the dawn." I'm afraid I'm not a prince.

MISSANDEI: Your Grace, forgive me, but your translation is not quite accurate. That noun has no gender in High Valyrian, so the proper translation for that prophecy would be, "The prince or princess who was promised will bring the dawn."

TYRION: Doesn't really roll off the tongue, does it?

DAENERYS: No, but I like it better. And you believe this prophecy refers to me?

MELISANDRE: Prophecies are dangerous things. I believe you have a role to play. As does another -- the King in the North, Jon Snow. (S7E2)

When Dany asks if Melisandre believes the prophecy refers to her, Melisandre merely says "Prophecies are dangerous things," and that she believes both Dany and Jon have a role to play. When Jon arrives at Dragonstone in the next episode, Melisandre says:

Quote

VARYS: I wondered why you weren't there to meet our guests. You begged us to summon the King in the North. Don't you want to see him again?

MELISANDRE: I've done my part. I've brought ice and fire together. (S7E3)

In the leaked Preliminary Outline for Season 7, Melisandre said something even more specific during her meeting with Dany, which was perhaps cut for being too revealing:

Quote

From Mel, Dany hears about the great conflict to come for the first time. The Night King, the Army of the Dead. They are real and they are coming. Mel says that Jon Snow, the King in the North, will be crucial in the Great War. And that War will only be won if Ice and Fire come together to create—

“Lukewarm water?" Tyrion asks. He knows Jon Snow. He traveled with him to the Wall. How did a bastard and Night’s Watch recruit become King in the North? (Preliminary Outline, EPISODE 702)

And then in the Season 7 finale, Jon and Dany have sex and presumably conceive a child, based on the foreshadowing for that throughout the season.

If this theory is true, the hints for both Jon and Dany being the prince that was promised (or in the show's case, direct statements to that effect) would not be negated, just reframed: it's not one or both of them that fulfills the prophecy, but a child created through their union. The "prince or princess" part also works well with the prophecy referring to a yet-to-be-born child, because the child could be male or female -- and we may never learn which it is, either because the child is sacrificed in the womb, or because the child is born and that information is simply withheld from the audience, whether the child is sacrificed or survives. (Alternatively, we could find out the sex of the child, but the point is that it doesn't matter.)

TL;DR: Jon and Dany's child could be the prince/princess that was promised.

[Ser Gareth]

32 minutes ago, Shmedricko said:

In Season 6 Episode 4, Melisandre explicitly says that Jon is the prince that was promised:

And then in the very next episode, Season 6 Episode 5, Kinvara explicitly says that Daenerys is the one who was promised:

(Both proclamations are followed by references to Melisandre being previously wrong about the prophecy.)

Unless one believes that the show would casually state the identity of the prince that was promised well before the last season, then neither Jon or Daenerys are the prince that was promised.

But their child could be.

When Daenerys asks if Melisandre believes the prophecy refers to her, Melisandre merely says "Prophecies are dangerous things," and that she believes both Daenerys and Jon have a role to play. When Jon arrives at Dragonstone in the next episode, Melisandre says:

In the leaked Preliminary Outline for Season 7, Melisandre said something even more specific during her meeting with Daenerys, which was perhaps cut for being too revealing:

And then in the Season 7 finale, Jon and Daenerys have sex and presumably conceive a child, based on the clues in that direction throughout the season.

If this theory is true, then the hints for both Jon and Daenerys being the prince that was promised (or in the show's case, direct statements to that effect) would foreshadow that it's actually a child created through their union, and not either or both of them, that is the prince that was promised. The "prince or princess" part also works well with the prophecy referring to a yet-to-be-born child, because the child could be male or female -- and we may never learn which it is, either because the child is sacrificed in the womb, or because the child is born (and potentially isn't sacrificed) and that information is simply withheld from the audience. (Or we could find out the sex of the child, but the point is that it doesn't matter.)

TL;DR: Jon and Daenerys' child could be the prince/princess that was promised.

I read a theory years ago that the PTWP would be the child of Jon and Dany, and that to defeat the Others that child would have to be sacrificed.....

[Mladen]

I was interested in the said line... It could be Gilly's baby (as we know, it has been hunted by Puddles/Shruds in Season 3), then of course, he has entire humanity as a target. Someone mentioned Godseye near Harrenhal, but I doubt it. Going after Daenerys? It could be. Or perhaps he is after one of the Stark sisters needing his bride?  

[btfu806]

On 3/10/2019 at 9:10 AM, alienarea said:

If the Night's King is coming after one person, in my opinion it has to be Daenerys Targaryen, the prince(ss) who was promised.

The books are called "The Song of Ice and Fire", who else could it be?

Why do you think it's Dany? What in the show/books has leads you to believe that?

I would assume it's called The Song of Ice and Fire because it's about Jon.  Rhaegar being musical and what not, makes sense with songs and Targ fire, Stark ice. 

[btfu806]

22 hours ago, Ser Gareth said:

I read a theory years ago that the PTWP would be the child of Jon and Dany, and that to defeat the Others that child would have to be sacrificed.....

I have read that too. But I have never read a good reason of how their child sacrifice would stop the Others. Just curious if you had..

[hewman]

16 minutes ago, btfu806 said:

Rhaegar being musical and what not, makes sense with songs and Targ fire, Stark ice. 

The 'Song' part might have more to do with the fact that stories in Middle Ages - and Westeros - were told by ministrels in the form of songs. Maybe...

[btfu806]

1 hour ago, hewman said:

The 'Song' part might have more to do with the fact that stories in Middle Ages - and Westeros - were told by ministrels in the form of songs. Maybe...

That is even better! Haha, 

[Ser Gareth]

4 hours ago, btfu806 said:

I have read that too. But I have never read a good reason of how their child sacrifice would stop the Others. Just curious if you had..

Maybe he was the Prince that was Promised for the Others?  They take Craster's kids and the show has made it pretty obvious what they are used for.  What would be the purpose of even showing that if it doesn't come up again?

But I don't really subscribe to the theory either to be honest!

[Wholala17]

On 3/10/2019 at 6:10 AM, alienarea said:

If the Night's King is coming after one person, in my opinion it has to be Daenerys Targaryen, the prince(ss) who was promised.

The books are called "The Song of Ice and Fire", who else could it be?

Joke's on you he's obviously after Bran

(Btw Jon is the prince that was promised and the song of ice and fire. No idea why anyone would think it's Dany at this point)

[Rose of Red Lake]

On 3/10/2019 at 11:03 AM, Shmedricko said:

TL;DR: Jon and Dany's child could be the prince/princess that was promised.

The pureblood incest child, made possible because Jon's special Targ sperm cured Dany's infertility and also made her forget about her desire for the Iron Throne? And now this inbred baby is the FULFILLMENT OF A PROPHECY! Wow that's some powerful jizz.

I hate Targ-centric theories like this. Just try for once to not center the entire story around Targaryen egos. 

I oppose all prophecy hero drivel that simply confirms that Targaryens ARE exceptional and special and gods above men. Basically, it's good practice to think the opposite of whatever these Targ/fire cultists think.

[Mystical]

2 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

The pureblood incest child, made possible because Jon's special Targ sperm cured Dany's infertility and also made her forget about her desire for the Iron Throne? And now this inbred baby is the FULFILLMENT OF A PROPHECY! Wow that's some powerful jizz.

Sounds very D&D to me.

[Rose of Red Lake]

20 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Sounds very D&D to me.

As I've mentioned on other threads, I think it's their fake out of the audience.

This is when things should start aligning with GRRM's endgame for the fate of the major characters, and GRRM would never write anything that stupid or dumb, because its not only a rehash of Stannis' failed plot, it's also a rehash of every bad Tolkien imitation.

What gets me is this fandom's belief that prophecy will screw everyone over EXCEPT for Jon and Dany! Like, they'll be the ones to perfectly predict it and end up the heroes??

Watch them sacrifice this dumb baby...and nothing happens. I'd laugh. GRRM wouldn't hesitate to cut down puffed up Targaryen self-importance, I think D&D wouldn't either because they had Tyrion mocking saviors in the story.

OR, watch GRRM throw a wrench in this Prince who was Promised business with Jon doing something appropriately mundane. He was promised...to protect the Starks from both ice and fire! 

I mean there is show evidence to back this up too, since every time Jon makes a promise to protect Sansa, Mel shows up in the next scene, thinking she's talking to GOD'S INSTRUMENT HIMSELF. When it's really just Jon, keeping the Stark line alive. I'd cackle if that's what the Ghost of High Heart meant. 

 

[Error-504]

3 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

As I've mentioned on other threads, I think it's their fake out of the audience.

This is when things should start aligning with GRRM's endgame for the fate of the major characters, and GRRM would never write anything that stupid or dumb, because its not only a rehash of Stannis' failed plot, it's also a rehash of every bad Tolkien imitation.

What gets me is this fandom's belief that prophecy will screw everyone over EXCEPT for Jon and Dany! Like, they'll be the ones to perfectly predict it and end up the heroes??

Watch them sacrifice this dumb baby...and nothing happens. I'd laugh. GRRM wouldn't hesitate to cut down puffed up Targaryen self-importance, I think D&D wouldn't either because they had Tyrion mocking saviors in the story.

OR, watch GRRM throw a wrench in this Prince who was Promised business with Jon doing something appropriately mundane. He was promised...to protect the Starks from both ice and fire! 

I mean there is show evidence to back this up too, since every time Jon makes a promise to protect Sansa, Mel shows up in the next scene, thinking she's talking to GOD'S INSTRUMENT HIMSELF. When it's really just Jon, keeping the Stark line alive. I'd cackle if that's what the Ghost of High Heart meant. 

 

Everyone knows Jamie is the prince that was promised, hell, how many people did he save the first time around?

[Lady of Mercia]

8 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I hate Targ-centric theories like this. Just try for once to not center the entire story around Targaryen egos. 

 

What, like "TPTWP will come from the line of Aerys and Rhaella"? Better tell GRRM he's wrong.

[Rose of Red Lake]

4 hours ago, Lady_of_Mercia said:

What, like "TPTWP will come from the line of Aerys and Rhaella"? Better tell GRRM he's wrong.

We don't even know what this person will actually do. As I said, they could simply be a dude who does something really mundane.

Rhaegar assumed he was a warrior who will save the world or somesuch...again people who think he's correct arent using their brains. You're not just supposed to uncritically accept whatever a Targaryen thinks about their "special destiny," and you're definitely not supposed to believe Mel is right.