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Season 8: News, Spoilers And Leaks

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3 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Except we've already had a story abut a reluctant King, who only took it because no one else was stepping up and then hated it. His name was Robert Baratheon. Now I'm not saying Jon is anything like Robert (far from it) but reluctant ruler is not an automatic recipe for success. Reluctant ruler can be just as a bad a solution as ambitious 'I want it' rulers.

When it comes to Dany, I've always thought she wouldn't get it. What was the point of her Throne room vision back in the House of the Undying if the exact opposite comes to pass? I know D&D probably forgot all about that but initially I thought that the reason she turns away from the Throne was because she ultimately chose her child/children/family over power. Now this would have been good story for S8, say Dany does end up pregnant an chooser her child over her desire for the throne/ruling. Except since S2 there has been no hint whatsoever of this and Dany has been full stop all about conquering and 'the throne is mine and I will take it'. So even if that were a possible way to end her story, there has literally been no groundwork for it.

I never really saw Robert as a 'reluctant' king, he's more in the vein of be careful what you wish for.  He wanted to be king, he fought for it, but once he got the thing he wanted, he found out it wasn't what he thought it was and he disliked it and felt trapped.  That's very different from someone who might agree to be king out of duty.

At one point for Book Dany, I hoped she would chuck it all for a house with a red door and a nice, mellow life that she was actually more temperamentally suited for than ruling....but now I think that will not be her fate in books or show certainly.  I guess there is a slim chance she and her baby could ride off on Drogon to Essos, but it seems a long shot.  

 

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Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I never really saw Robert as a 'reluctant' king, he's more in the vein of be careful what you wish for.  He wanted to be king, he fought for it, but once he got the thing he wanted, he found out it wasn't what he thought it was and he disliked it and felt trapped.  That's very different from someone who might agree to be king out of duty.

At one point for Book Dany, I hoped she would chuck it all for a house with a red door and a nice, mellow life that she was actually more temperamentally suited for than ruling....but now I think that will not be her fate in books or show certainly.  I guess there is a slim chance she and her baby could ride off on Drogon to Essos, but it seems a long shot.  

 

I think Robert just wanted to get Lyanna, and if he had to overthrow the king to do it so be it. It seemed to be all revenge and spite. If he had married Lyanna, I can't imagine he would have given a care as to who is on the Iron Throne. Aerys (and Rhaegar) just gave him a good reason to find support.

Edited by NonoNono

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Does anyone have any theories on what the meaning of Maise Williams statement that she had to go back to season 1 to understand season 8?  So many of the people from the first season/book are already dead, I'm not getting any immediate ideas of what she meant and what it means for the show's ending?

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3 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Does anyone have any theories on what the meaning of Maise Williams statement that she had to go back to season 1 to understand season 8?  So many of the people from the first season/book are already dead, I'm not getting any immediate ideas of what she meant and what it means for the show's ending?

All the important characters were introduced in season 1, and season 8 is gonna close with them, I imagine.

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Does anyone have any theories on what the meaning of Maise Williams statement that she had to go back to season 1 to understand season 8?  So many of the people from the first season/book are already dead, I'm not getting any immediate ideas of what she meant and what it means for the show's ending?

I think it has to do with:

1- Her relationship with Sansa.

2- Her relationship with Jon.

3- Ned's fate resulting partially from Sansa's own actions, and the strain it put in the family which was being torn apart.

Since I believe Sansa marries Aegon (the GC leader, who I think will steal the name from Jon), and since Jon is now doing something very similar to Sansa in S1 where he is sort of being drawn, possibly, away from being a Stark, Arya and Sansa have to make choices that would either help ensure the Stark's continuity or risk seeing the family lost for their own personal interest. Arya would likely have to chose to support Sansa or Jon, since I think Sansa marrying Aegon will totally screw Jon but will be done to salvage what is left of the family's name and continuity.

If my guess that Winterfell is lost and a new wall rises south, and Jon is to be executed, Arya stabbing him in the heart with her dragonglass dagger to "save" his life would allow Jon to go back north to Winterfell, as King Beyond the Wall, ensuring that a Stark would remain in Winterfell even if the family has actually lost it and lost access to it.

Edited by NonoNono

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31 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Does anyone have any theories on what the meaning of Maise Williams statement that she had to go back to season 1 to understand season 8?  So many of the people from the first season/book are already dead, I'm not getting any immediate ideas of what she meant and what it means for the show's ending?

You mean the episode in which Robert wants one of his sons to marry one of Ned's daughters? 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Mystical said:

Except we've already had a story abut a reluctant King, who only took it because no one else was stepping up and then hated it. His name was Robert Baratheon. Now I'm not saying Jon is anything like Robert (far from it) but reluctant ruler is not an automatic recipe for success. Reluctant ruler can be just as a bad a solution as ambitious 'I want it' rulers.

When it comes to Dany, I've always thought she wouldn't get it. What was the point of her Throne room vision back in the House of the Undying if the exact opposite comes to pass? I know D&D probably forgot all about that but initially I thought that the reason she turns away from the Throne was because she ultimately chose her child/children/family over power. Now this would have been good story for S8, say Dany does end up pregnant an chooser her child over her desire for the throne/ruling. Except since S2 there has been no hint whatsoever of this and Dany has been full stop all about conquering and 'the throne is mine and I will take it'. So even if that were a possible way to end her story, there has literally been no groundwork for it.

I actually still think there is a very real possibility of this. It of course, still leaves Dany very much alive at the end of the show however. There hasn't been any recent "foreshadowing" because we are lead to believe Dany is barren. 

Now, I only think this would happen if an arrangement were to be in place in such that her child was to be the heir to the throne, which in turn might mean Jon himself ends up King. Or Jon dies, and Gendry and Arya end up regents? 

Or a legitimized Gendry marries Sansa, and Jon and Dany retire to the North........  

Edited by Error-504

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Frikidoctor has released a new video:  Link

He says he will not be giving any more spoilers because HBO is threatening to sue him.  

 

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58 minutes ago, NonoNono said:

I think it has to do with:

1- Her relationship with Sansa.

2- Her relationship with Jon.

3- Ned's fate resulting partially from Sansa's own actions, and the strain it put in the family which was being torn apart.

Since I believe Sansa marries Aegon (the GC leader, who I think will steal the name from Jon), and since Jon is now doing something very similar to Sansa in S1 where he is sort of being drawn, possibly, away from being a Stark, Arya and Sansa have to make choices that would either help ensure the Stark's continuity or risk seeing the family lost for their own personal interest. Arya would likely have to chose to support Sansa or Jon, since I think Sansa marrying Aegon will totally screw Jon but will be done to salvage what is left of the family's name and continuity.

If my guess that Winterfell is lost and a new wall rises south, and Jon is to be executed, Arya stabbing him in the heart with her dragonglass dagger to "save" his life would allow Jon to go back north to Winterfell, as King Beyond the Wall, ensuring that a Stark would remain in Winterfell even if the family has actually lost it and lost access to it.

This would be a much story than the one the show is likely to gives us, I think.

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, GrapefruitPerrier said:

This would be a much story than the one the show is likely to gives us, I think.

I think it is pretty likely. Arya has a dragonglass dagger and a "regular" dagger. She has the opportunity to "Valar morghulis" Jon, or do the opposite. She has the opportunity to try and save Jon by killing those who are ordering his execution, but then screw her sister's future doing so and possibly the Starks outright.

The GC leader stealing the name Aegon I think is far more likely than people believe. I think I am the only one who actually believes fAegon is in S8, in the show's own way lol. Varys will not betray Dany for Jon, it wouldn't be much of a betrayal. Dany's threat was very specific to Varys, but if he betrayed her for Jon she would have had to essentially make that threat for everyone else. So who would Varys betray her for? He said one needs a good name and a powerful army to rule. Jon will be only known as Snow, and he has no army. Sansa has no army. But the GC leader, saving KL from a dragon/mad Dany/mad Cersei, claiming he is Aego, THAT would be a "good" name, and he would have a powerful army.

So I do think Varys will see that exact opportunity and favor him.

So all in all I think it's all in place to happen. Also Theon's redemption being him bringing Jon back to Winterfell would make sense, he has to have SOME decent redemption. And the freefolks cannot end up living south, so I think it works.

Also, Arya could then leave, but "the lone wolf dies, the pack survives", so I think she drops her desire to leave Sansa, accepting to put the Starks' future ahead of her own desire.

But I can't imagine Arya not paying for stealing the Faceless Men's bag of tricks...

We'll see:p

Edited by NonoNono

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I sincerely doubt the Harry=Aegon theory as we only have 6 episodes left and we have problems seeing current plotlines being resolved, let along adding new ones. 

As for who will Sansa end up with, I entertained an idea that Tyrion and Sansa, given that the pair work much better on TV show than in books, can end up together, but, with all the leaks, it sounds improbable. Robin, Gendry, etc. all of those seem unlikely way to finish the storyline of one of the most important characters in TV series. 

I wouldn't mind her ruling in her own name, with an extramarital liaison :D

 

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11 hours ago, NonoNono said:

3- Ned's fate resulting partially from Sansa's own actions, and the strain it put in the family which was being torn apart.

What? What did Sansa do in the show that had to do with Ned's fate? Nothing, nada, zilch. Stop mixing up the books with the show. This literally can't be what Maisie meant because it's NOT in the show.

All Maisie's statement probably means is that there will be even more horrible S1 callbacks than there were in 7. And probably just as false and nonsensical.

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Two new TV spots came out last night:  Link 1 and Link 2

Biggest new info from these two spots is that Dany and Jon go back to Dragonstone in S8, reddit detectives figured it out based on the fireplace:  Link 3

I'm guessing they retreat there after WF is lost.  

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1 minute ago, Ser Wun Wun said:

Two new TV spots came out last night:  Link 1 and Link 2

Biggest new info from these two spots is that Dany and Jon go back to Dragonstone in S8, reddit detectives figured it out based on the fireplace:  Link 3

I'm guessing they retreat there after WF is lost.  

So Dany and Jon survive through episode three, I guess that isnt very surprising.

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1 minute ago, Ser Wun Wun said:

Two new TV spots came out last night:  Link 1 and Link 2

Biggest new info from these two spots is that Dany and Jon go back to Dragonstone in S8, reddit detectives figured it out based on the fireplace:  Link 3

I'm guessing they retreat there after WF is lost.  

I agree. From the brief teaser trailer released yesterday there appears to be a scene with Jon and Daenerys at Dragonstone (the wall in the background is exactly the same wall we saw in a scene from S7 involving Dany and Tyrion having a discussion). We only see the back of Dany (probably to hide her pregnancy) and Jon has a very distraught look on his face. My best fanfiction guess here is that this scene is from E4 with the two of them retreating to Dragonstone after losing the battle at WF to obtain the relative safety of Dragonstone (at least the NK army can't swim to get at them easily). Perhaps Jon is telling her he needs to leave (like Rhaeger left Lyanna and Ned left Caitlyn) her there (leaving Drogon for aerial protection at least) to go south to meet with Cersei to try and convince her to work with him to continue the fight against the NK. Perhaps in the future Dany will make another one of her questionable decisions and leave Dragonstone on Drogon (while still pregnant) to help save Jon (like she did in the past) and fight the NK. I guess we shall see.

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4 hours ago, Mystical said:

What? What did Sansa do in the show that had to do with Ned's fate? Nothing, nada, zilch. Stop mixing up the books with the show. This literally can't be what Maisie meant because it's NOT in the show.

All Maisie's statement probably means is that there will be even more horrible S1 callbacks than there were in 7. And probably just as false and nonsensical.

Yeah, sure,  maybe.  The show's attempts at call backs are often a little on the clumsy side.  But, I'm still trying to think of what are those call backs, what are those parallel scenes? 

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3 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Yeah, sure,  maybe.  The show's attempts at call backs are often a little on the clumsy side.  But, I'm still trying to think of what are those call backs, what are those parallel scenes? 

Not really parallels, and the call backs were all whacko anyway. Like Sansa in S6 saying to Jon 'We never should have left Winterfell. I want to go back and scream at myself 'don't go you idiot'.'. Did Sansa forget they live in a patriarchy? As a woman she can scream at herself all she wants, she couldn't have stopped herself from leaving cause her agency is owned by her father who 'sold her off', as is the way in their society. Oh no wait, that's D&D making her say that stupid stuff.

Don't get me started on all the callbacks Arya made in S7. I mean would it have killed D&D to rewatch their own goddamn show? From the story about Bran being taught archery and Arya also wanting to learn. The very first scene with the Starks in the show, 2 minutes into the pilot, showed Arya shooting a bullseye while Bran couldn't even hold the bow correctly. So Arya was such a protege she learned archery in one day? The letter, that EVERYONE dismissed as Cersei's words and was disregarded by everyone, is suddenly a smoking gun that means Sansa betrayed her family and would make the North turn on her. What? And when Arya played the 'game of faces' with Sansa she said 'we both wanted to be different people when we were younger' which...doesn't even make any sense since Sansa wanted to be Sansa, Arya wanted to be something different.

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21 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Does anyone have any theories on what the meaning of Maise Williams statement that she had to go back to season 1 to understand season 8?  So many of the people from the first season/book are already dead, I'm not getting any immediate ideas of what she meant and what it means for the show's ending?

There's a few things that I've been thinking about. 

1. Arya was the only person to hear Varys and Illirio's plotting in the red keep dungeons, and my possibly recognize Varys' voice when they finally all come together. Remember in S1 EP5 she tries to warn Ned that they were plotting to kill him (well Illirio asks "if one hand dies then why cant the other") but somone interrupts her attempt to speak with him. She may believe that Varys played a part in Neds execution (true or not) and will be the one who kills him ultimately.

2. I'm still holding out that Varys is going to betray Danerys. There's just too much that doesnt add up to me. If he wanted to see Danerys or Viserion succeed then why even tell Robert that she was pregnant with Drogos child if not because he knew how Robert would react (have her killed). 

Add to this that he was not planning to go to essos until he heard Tywins death bell ringing, in which he promptly changed plans and got on the ship. 

Then theres the weird thing about him not actually showing up to Mareen until after the Sons of the Harpy attack Danerys in the fighting pits and she flies away. Oddly coincidental that he pops up just after she is gone and then leaves right before the slavers come back to sack Mareen. 

Then theres season 7 where the Lannisters are somehow one step ahead of Danys army.

I know theres some alternative theories of why all of things happened but I cant shake the suspicion of Varys having something up his sleeve in terms of a betrayal. 

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Posted (edited)

I am sure Varys pushes Sansa to not support Dany and marry the GC leader ;)

Also the teaser from yesterday shows Dany and Jon back in Dragonstone. So it confirms Dany survives. But I think it backs the idea that Dany leaves WF before the NK arrives due to being rejected and only leaves Rhaegal and her army at WF to help. I originally couldn’t figure where she would go, but should have obviously thought about DS.

I guess Jon flies to her to tell her they lost WF and a lot of her army is dead. Now imagine if he also announces that her army was betrayed from inside, the gates closed on them when the NK arrived as Sansa and co fled through the crypts...

Varys said you need a good name and powerful army to rule. Jon will always be seen as Jon Snow, Ned’s bastard. He has no army. Dany’s reputation is ruined. But I am certain the GC leader steals the name Aegon once rumors spread that Aegon is back and trying to save the kingdom, and Jon will be left with the crappy reputation. Sansa has to marry fAegon to salvage House Stark now that WF and the north is lost.

Jon is arrested by the GC for claiming he is Aegon, sentenced to death, and Arya must figure if she will defend Jon and risk the end of the Stark family, or play along.

I think fAegon will also line up the wildlings to be executed, under the pretense Dany destroyed the wall with her dragon to take the north with their help.

Arya stabs Jon with the pointy end of her dragon glass dagger instead of killing him, turning him into a new NK.

Jon saves the wildlings, and they all leave KL on Theon’s ships, who brings them back north of the wall to Winterfell, where Jon becomes King Beyond the Wall and rules the ruined Winterfell with the freefolk. Theon is redeemed, and Arya made it so that there will always be a Stark in Winterfell.

Edited by NonoNono

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2 hours ago, Every Last Chicken said:

There's a few things that I've been thinking about. 

1. Arya was the only person to hear Varys and Illirio's plotting in the red keep dungeons, and my possibly recognize Varys' voice when they finally all come together. Remember in S1 EP5 she tries to warn Ned that they were plotting to kill him (well Illirio asks "if one hand dies then why cant the other") but somone interrupts her attempt to speak with him. She may believe that Varys played a part in Neds execution (true or not) and will be the one who kills him ultimately.

2. I'm still holding out that Varys is going to betray Danerys. There's just too much that doesnt add up to me. If he wanted to see Danerys or Viserion succeed then why even tell Robert that she was pregnant with Drogos child if not because he knew how Robert would react (have her killed). 

Add to this that he was not planning to go to essos until he heard Tywins death bell ringing, in which he promptly changed plans and got on the ship. 

Then theres the weird thing about him not actually showing up to Mareen until after the Sons of the Harpy attack Danerys in the fighting pits and she flies away. Oddly coincidental that he pops up just after she is gone and then leaves right before the slavers come back to sack Mareen. 

Then theres season 7 where the Lannisters are somehow one step ahead of Danys army.

I know theres some alternative theories of why all of things happened but I cant shake the suspicion of Varys having something up his sleeve in terms of a betrayal. 

All of this I think is just messy writing. The earlier seasons were following book Varys when he did have a plan. They then changed his motivations in later seasons to support Dany and hoped you'd forget his earlier comments/actions. Since which of course they've also really struggled to find something suitable for him to do. That's just my take.

He no longer seems mysterious, powerful, nor informed (to me). A shell of the spider he was.

I think the most likely source of betrayel will be tyrion - either for love, or for family. 

I hope Masies comments aren't just referencing callbacks 

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