Season 8: News, Spoilers And Leaks

[Cas Stark]

Bran ruling would definitely be extremely stupid, because the show hasn't shown him to be very helpful, or insightful, he doesn't even have human emotions or feelings toward his siblings.  The fact that they've had him sitting by the weirwood tree for 2 full seasons staring blankly and not had any lines could almost make me believe they would have him be the ruler, and it could then go in the 'massive missed opportunity for proper character arc' file, but right now, why would anyone in Westeros, even in Winterfell, want him as the ruler?  He sits all day, dreams in the past, once in a while he has a useful vision, but very rarely volunteers anything helpful to anyone.

[sweetsunray]

13 minutes ago, Sir Hedge of Hog said:

Darkness lay over the world and a hero (city of ashes?/KL), Azor Ahai, was chosen to fight against it. To fight the darkness, Azor Ahai needed to forge a hero's sword. He labored for thirty days and thirty nights until it was done. However, when he went to temper it in water ( Fight against the NK?), the sword broke. He was not one to give up easily, so he started over. The second time he took fifty days and fifty nights to make the sword, even better than the first. To temper it this time, he captured a lion and drove the sword into its heart (Fight against Lannisters/KL), but once more the steel shattered. The third time, with a heavy heart, for he knew before hand what he must do to finish the blade, he worked for a hundred days and nights until it was finished. This time, he called for his wife, Nissa Nissa, and asked her to bare her breast (Dany). He drove his sword into her breast, her soul combining with the steel of the sword, creating Lightbringer, while her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon (fuck knows - arya?) .^[1]

For the books I think that Nissa Nissa is a name for a land, and the swords are meteors. One landed in deep ocean, but still had a ripple effect. Another landed in the Sunset sea (byeond the lion of the Rock), and also had a ripple effect. A third hit a continent (Nissa Nissa) in the heart of it, and the Fourteen Flames were born out of it, the place where dragons were born.

[sweetsunray]

4 minutes ago, longest night said:

What Bran did each time he warged Hodor was evil. Did that make Bran evil in itself? No. However, he was manipulated all through that time by the 3EC to get him to the tree. Yet then we need to conclude the 3EC is evil. He forced this evil upon Hodor. Bran didn't do it realizing what he was doing, that was an accident, but it was evil nonetheless. However, Bran doesn't exist anymore. As Meera said, Bran died in that tree. The 3EC currently resides in Bran's body, and the 3EC is a puppet or the mastermind behind the children of the forest.

They created one tool to wipe out mankind, why not a second to control mankind?

3EC did not force Bran to force Hodor. That was Bran's choice too.

The whole idea of evil CotF and 3EC is And I reject the show-explanation of the CotF making the Others. The Weewees aren't even like the book-Others.

[longest night]

2 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

3EC did not force Bran to force Hodor. That was Bran's choice too.

The whole idea of evil CotF and 3EC is And I reject the show-explanation of the CotF making the Others. The Weewees aren't even like the book-Others.

The 3EC took him to the time with Wylas and told him to do it.

"Listen to your friends, Bran."

You may reject it, but I bet it's something we learn in the books. I also think we will learn that the Others are out to stop the 3EC and CotF, not just decimate men.

[HouseLancaster]

54 minutes ago, longest night said:

Bran forced Hodor to hold that door. The 3EC(R) intentionally put Bran in that time to force Bran to turn Wylas (Walder) into Hodor. Hodor was a simpleton, does that mean his free will and life is any less important? Did he deserve to be a simpleton?

The 3EC(R) wanted a wheelchair for himself. The idea he doesn't want any more is a lie.

There has been no evidence to suggest Bran has warged into another person since the Hodor tragedy. Nor has there been any scene to imply he's abusing his abilities purely for the aquisition of power. And given how the show telegraph's plot points I would give very little chance to this narrative becoming apparent with only one hour (ish) to go. It's also worth noting, I'm not saying theyre pure, both Bran and the Raven have been a force for good - and that's all we've really been given thus far.

[sweetsunray]

18 minutes ago, longest night said:

The 3EC took him to the time with Wylas and told him to do it.

"Listen to your friends, Bran."

Yes. And yet it was still Bran's choice. And he was at least shocked and sad when he saw what it did. He knew then that it was wrong. And he never did it again. It was evil and he never did it again, instead giving people as much free will as he possibly can ever since.

As for the proposal Bran doing this to Dany is ridiculous. Skinchanging a human being of his full faculties leads to stuff like Varamyr's prologue with Thistle. They become instantly aware of it and fight the skinchanger in their mind. Sounds like something the Andals would believe of greenseers, you know those people who committed wholesale genocide for their own greed.

[Sir Hedge of Hog]

 

28 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

What it shows is that Dany does not have what it takes to deal with the truth EVER and always very liable to commit a massacre if circumstances put her under pressure. And ruling Westeros is an immense pressure. Ruling with that amount of power is LONELY. And there will always someone who will hate or disagree with a ruler. For example, even despite the loyalism that the Starks finally managed to gather by S8, house Glover still preferred to stay home. 

When the truth must be hidden, when one has to lie to a monarch to prevent them from massacring people, they shouldn't be in power. So, the sooner Jon knew the truth about himself, the better.

Dany lost her team and her children. she was in grief, she panicked and was a fish out of water. Jons reveal served to isolate her from him - he alone could have taken her over the line. the reveal tore them apart and served no purpose apart from jon 'needed to know'. 

You are being too harsh on dany.

Jon did not need to know - it served no purpose apart from weakening the home team.  If jon did not know, they would have been in such a strong position.

This could all be wrong and Bran/3ER is a wise ol tree elf, but it seems to fit the show really well. 

[Lollygag]

This article basically states that D&D came up with the WW's origin on their own. The books imply that ice and fire are powers "old and dark" meaning they're connected somehow, and the implication is that they were never created, but always were, waiting to be awakened. 

https://ew.com/tv/2019/03/26/game-of-thrones-night-king-origin/

Quote

EW asked GoT showrunners David Benioff and Dan Weiss what inspired them to add the character to their HBO hit series.

“It was almost logical as you went back in time, as you create the prehistory for all this,” Weiss said. “We’ve seen what the White Walkers do, we’ve seen how they perpetuate themselves and created the wights. If you’re going backwards, well, they made these things … so what made them? We always liked the implication that they weren’t some kind of cosmic evil that had been around since the beginning to time but that the White Walkers had a history — that something that seems legendary and mythological and permanent wasn’t. They had a historical cause that was comprehensible like the way the wars on screen we’re seeing unfold are comprehensible. They’re the result of people, or beings, with motivations we can understand.”

GRRM said that the Others are ice and Dany/dragons are fire. MMR's ritual contains a song with parts containing both water/ice and fire. 

AGOT Daenerys VIII

"You must. Once I begin to sing, no one must enter this tent. My song will wake powers old and dark. The dead will dance here this night. No living man must look on them."

…

No, Dany wanted to say, no, not that, you mustn't, but when she opened her mouth, a long wail of pain escaped, and the sweat broke over her skin. What was wrong with them, couldn't they see? Inside the tent the shapes were dancing, circling the brazier and the bloody bath, dark against the sandsilk, and some did not look human. She glimpsed the shadow of a great wolf, and another like a man wreathed in flames.

 

 

[sweetsunray]

16 minutes ago, Sir Hedge of Hog said:

 

Dany lost her team and her children. she was in grief, she panicked and was a fish out of water. Jons reveal served to isolate her from him - he alone could have taken her over the line. the reveal tore them apart and served no purpose apart from jon 'needed to know'. 

You are being too harsh on dany.

Jon did not need to know - it served no purpose apart from weakening the home team.  If jon did not know, they would have been in such a strong position.

This could all be wrong and Bran/3ER is a wise ol tree elf, but it seems to fit the show really well. 

I am harsh on Dany, because this is her ultimate answer to loss, being unsure who to trust, and wanting cheers of the people. Jon could not give her Missandei back, not Rhaegal, not Jorah. Jon could not make the smallfolk welcome her like the people of Mereen did. Both Varys and Tyrion would be troubled. Even if Jon didn't know and a marriage had been arranged, Varys might still have switched over to supporting him. Tyrion would still free his brother. And at some point Jon and Dany would have a disagreement, and Jon would brood and retreat. And Dany would snap. It might have taken a month, a year or a decade. But it would have happened. Life is unfair. Life is hard and harsh. We all can break under the pressure of it. It is the strength and responsibility that we show in our deepest hour of loneliness and despair that proves our worth.

So, yes, Jon did need to know, before he got into a personal promise of marriage to his aunt. He had already taken a step too far by bending the knee to her, weakining his position with her.

Dany expressed the sentiment of never wanting to know. But Jon has never expressed the same sentiment.

[HouseLancaster]

On 5/14/2019 at 4:03 PM, Mystical said:

The only thing left for them to do to completely ruin the entire show is for Bran to end up King or whatever. He's let close to a million people die just this Season alone. Why would anyone want a guy to rule who doesn't give a fuck about people? He's like Dany in reverse. Dany kills everyone by action. Bran kills everyone by inaction. I'm sure in D&D's logic, that means he's better than Dany and oh so much better suited for a throne. No he's not. He's the exact same, he's just calmer about his 'evil'.

I don't know about this either. Again it's a stretch to call Bran evil. We don't even know what he knows or knew, if he can even make sense of the flashes of the future he''s seen, if he even know's was the future. What went down in Kingslanding - was he watching, did he know, can he warg into creature from such distance? Has any of this ever been clarified?

YES, if he is to be king I really hope his human side returns to him first. I do think if someone told me at the end of s1 that sweet kid would end up as king - I would have been extatic (the journey there hasnt been so good though).

Also, language!!

[longest night]

31 minutes ago, HouseLancaster said:

There has been no evidence to suggest Bran has warged into another person since the Hodor tragedy. Nor has there been any scene to imply he's abusing his abilities purely for the aquisition of power. And given how the show telegraph's plot points I would give very little chance to this narrative becoming apparent with only one hour (ish) to go. It's also worth noting, I'm not saying theyre pure, both Bran and the Raven have been a force for good - and that's all we've really been given thus far.

Bran died in that tree. Bran no longer exists and since the 3EC has taken control, we've learned very little of anything of what it has done. No one has yet to give a good explanation of why this 3EC who he himself says is not Bran, would care who Jon's parentage is. It didn't matter to the battle against the Others. Why did Bran need Sam to tell Jon who he is at that very moment when Sam was at his most emotional.

 

23 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Yes. And yet it was still Bran's choice. And he was at least shocked and sad when he saw what it did. He knew then that it was wrong. And he never did it again. It was evil and he never did it again, instead giving people as much free will as he possibly can ever since.

As for the proposal Bran doing this to Dany is ridiculous. Skinchanging a human being of his full faculties leads to stuff like Varamyr's prologue with Thistle. They become instantly aware of it and fight the skinchanger in their mind. Sounds like something the Andals would believe of greenseers, you know those people who committed wholesale genocide for their own greed.

Bran knew it was wrong. Bran doesn't exist anymore. Yes, we learn in Varamyr's prologue also that wargs who died can move their conscience to their bonded animal. It doesn't discount that it would be impossible for someone to do it to a human under the right conditions or with enough power.

What if the 3EC moved its conscience to Bran? In the books, he's being fed what everyone knows is Jojen paste, making him linked closer to the power. We don't know exactly what's happening in the books yet. However, in the show, we are repeatedly told Bran doesn't exist anymore. We aren't even sure the point that happens except for Meera who says Bran died in that tree. What if it happened right at the point that the old 3EC died?

What if the King's of Winter were puppets of the children of the forest until the Andal invasion who uprooted their power? I know people have this "noble savage" trope in their mind, but the cotf could very well be more like the Aztecs that offered human sacrifice to their gods.

[Sir Hedge of Hog]

sure jon needed and deserved to know, but I question the timing...as for his aunt, yes that would gross him out but that type of marriage is not uncommon in westeros?

ultimately dany is dragon hence her personality traits as you mention. I never was a dany fan until she hooked up with jon and I can see how she has made the decisions she has made (apart from killing innocents) and their are lots of arguments about this and sending a message out of FEAR so all will not oppose her. so she was not mad, but rational in her actions.

is bran evil - nope...but is he still bran? he says he is not...

its either an awesome theory or completely brilliant but wrong lol

check out the posts on the other forum about bran, perhaps they can argue it better. as for him being the king,  I would have no probs with it - a geek in charge. I love it. but it also ties into nissa nissa too.

[Sir Hedge of Hog]

amends - I would have no probs with bran being king - if he is this wise greenseer or brandon stark, but he aint bran no more...

truth is..we dont know who or what he is...he just spends tonnes of time on his own doing is greenseeing thing.....

[sweetsunray]

19 minutes ago, Sir Hedge of Hog said:

sure jon needed and deserved to know, but I question the timing...as for his aunt, yes that would gross him out but that type of marriage is not uncommon in westeros?

The timing was at the fairest moment for Dany too. It was her choice to commit her armies and dragons into the battle against the army of the dead. She called it "Jon's war". If Jon had learned later, and told her after (you know he would have told her), Dany would have felt she had been manipulated by Bran and Jon into sacrificing such strategic advances.

Telling Jon at the earliest possible, before that battle, with enough time for him to come to terms with it enough himself before telling Dany, was the fairest thing to do.

Dany needed to know as much as Jon did.

And it is uncommon to marry your uncle or aunt. It happened 4 times in the past 300 years, twice with Targs, and two such marriages at the same time by two Stark brothers who wedded their Stark half-nieces who were the heirs, and it always included turmoil, usurpation of power, and led to war and rebellions. The Stark brothers jumped ahead of their half-sisters. Four brothers there were, and 3 of them got to be Lord of WF, and one died (one of those who married his niece) before being able to be Lord after his eldest brother (the other who married his niece). The third brother died without being married even (so must have been young). The issue of these Stark uncle-niece marriages was never recognized as potential heirs, nor their descendants. Twin sons died before growing up. The daughters of that marriage were married into House Umber and House Cerwyn. The current Stark kids are not descended of such a marriage.

[longest night]

10 minutes ago, Sir Hedge of Hog said:

sure jon needed and deserved to know, but I question the timing...as for his aunt, yes that would gross him out but that type of marriage is not uncommon in westeros?

ultimately dany is dragon hence her personality traits as you mention. I never was a dany fan until she hooked up with jon and I can see how she has made the decisions she has made (apart from killing innocents) and their are lots of arguments about this and sending a message out of FEAR so all will not oppose her. so she was not mad, but rational in her actions.

is bran evil - nope...but is he still bran? he says he is not...

its either an awesome theory or completely brilliant but wrong lol

check out the posts on the other forum about bran, perhaps they can argue it better. as for him being the king,  I would have no probs with it - a geek in charge. I love it. but it also ties into nissa nissa too.

Why did the original 3EC take Bran to the Tower of Joy? Why did the current 3EC continue to seek out that information? Why did the 3EC even care Jon is legitimate or not? Why did the 3EC say to Sam that Jon needs to know, and then needs to know now?

Then there's other things. Why did the 3EC refer to Jaime as an old friend? Because he pushed Bran out the window? He's not Bran. Unless the 3EC orchestrated the events to have Bran pushed out the window. As the 3EC told Jaime, it led him to be where he was in that moment. Jaime didn't do anything at that battle, and the only thing he did was run back to Cersei which potentially caused the bells to ring which triggered Daenerys. The 3EC also talked to Tyrion. What did he say to Tyrion? Makes you wonder what else he manipulated that led to Daenerys fall into madness.

[BalerionTheCat]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

I reject the show-explanation of the CotF making the Others. The Weewees aren't even like the book-Others.

Same for me. I believe the Books' Others are the demons of the Lion of Nights. They are as old as the gods. And beyond any mortal, even CotF, ability to create.

[CrypticWeirwood]

1 minute ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Same for me. I believe the Books' Others are the demons of the Lion of Nights. They are as old as the gods. And beyond any mortal, even CotF, ability to create.

But are there any gods really? The old gods are all the greenseers' "second lives" in the immortal weirwood network. And most of the greenseers have been from the Children, not from the First Men. 

 

[Sir Hedge of Hog]

We feel dany/Jon needed to know but ignorance is bliss. Incest always leads to doom - maybe this is why they were told.

Longest night ask why was bran shown the tower of joy scene - I agree - the facts are our hero's would be alive, happy and strong if they did not know. 

Is this right ? Ask the poor folk of KL...

 

[sweetsunray]

25 minutes ago, longest night said:

Bran died in that tree. Bran no longer exists and since the 3EC has taken control,

Bran is still inside. Check out Isaac's interview about it. So he exists. It's not some alien entity that controls or animates Bran's body. Bran has all histories that have ever happened in his head, and his ego collapsed, from which desire for power come... 

You don't say of Buddha that something else controlled Siddharta either.

[sweetsunray]

2 minutes ago, Sir Hedge of Hog said:

We feel dany/Jon needed to know but ignorance is bliss. Incest always leads to doom - maybe this is why they were told.

Longest night ask why was bran shown the tower of joy scene - I agree - the facts are our hero's would be alive, happy and strong if they did not know. 

Is this right ? Ask the poor folk of KL...

 

Which heroes would be alive, happy and strong if they did not know?