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AEJON TARGARYEN

Season 8: News, Spoilers And Leaks

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12 minutes ago, Error-504 said:

We are talking about a 30 second trailer here. Not sure what your talking about tbh

Playing with ideas for the fun of it to see where they might go.

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19 hours ago, Lollygag said:

That's what it looked like to me, too. I'm wondering about that old Wall, now. Hammer of the Waters called up to split the land and then it was frozen?

No way, that would make way too much sense.   

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On 12/8/2018 at 2:40 AM, Curled Finger said:

Dragonglass...or another Wall...

Or both. It breaks my heart though because it means they might lose the North for good.

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2 hours ago, Faera said:

Or both. It breaks my heart though because it means they might lose the North for good.

Or both indeed.  Alt Shift X has a nice break down of the teaser.  The sigils and their er fates (?) is very interesting.   Wolves and dragons frozen while lions burn.  I really, really wish there had been a little something for the kraken, just to gage whether the fates (?) are literal or political symbols.    Don't despair my friend, it's just a (bitchen) teaser.  I'm not convinced Westeros could even continue without its magic--but the whole place could definitely use a political and socio-economic overhaul.   Valyria, the seat of fire magic in my humble estimation, was destroyed long ago yet the awesome power of fire magic persists.   It will take more than another Wall to eliminate the power of ice.    Dragon glass...frozen fire...perhaps it's a container rather than barrier?   

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On 12/9/2018 at 3:07 PM, Curled Finger said:

Don't despair my friend, it's just a (bitchen) teaser. 

:rofl:

Quote

Wolves and dragons frozen while lions burn.  I really, really wish there had been a little something for the kraken, just to gage whether the fates (?) are literal or political symbols.    [...] I'm not convinced Westeros could even continue without its magic--but the whole place could definitely use a political and socio-economic overhaul.  

I feel that the role of the kraken will be much greater in the books since Euron has a very good chance of playing an indirect - or even a direct - role in the coming of the Others. I'm still in love with the idea that he is something of a Proto-Bran that went wrong and not he is something of an Anti-Christ figure of the messianic role Bran is playing. It saddens me really that the final show down really does seem to be just a stand off between "Stargaryens" and crazy Cersei in the south. If she still holds power in the books by the end of Dream, I'll probably die of shock. 

Quote

Valyria, the seat of fire magic in my humble estimation, was destroyed long ago yet the awesome power of fire magic persists.  It will take more than another Wall to eliminate the power of ice.   Dragon glass...frozen fire...perhaps it's a container rather than barrier?  

Well, it would make more sense that the new wall - the "Antonian Wall" to the Ice Wall's Hadrian, in a way - was made out of something that actually kills the Others. It would be harder for them to break through presumably. And, y'know, don't leave a potential magical horn lying around that can take the Wall down and/or take your pet dragon into the Others' backyard.

Slightly OT but I have a friend who hypothesized that the Others are actually responding to a natural disaster that's about to sweep Westeros anyway in the form of volcanic activity. We know that the grounds around Dragonstone used to be active, and possibly North of the Wall around Hardhome depending on what theory you follow. 

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Does anybody really think that the teaser actually represents the true End Game? The most literal interpretation of the teaser is that the battle ends in a stalemate with the Wall just moving further south made up this time of Dragonglass. To me this would be more of bitter ending as compared to a bittersweet ending (as in most bittersweet endings the sweet part tends to trump the bitter part overall). Perhaps this teaser was just meant to signify one possible ending, with the intent to just sustain interest in the show with a possible relatively "negative" type of ending (which I suspect many fans would not be expecting).  

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7 minutes ago, DisneyDoc2425 said:

Does anybody really think that the teaser actually represents the true End Game? The most literal interpretation of the teaser is that the battle ends in a stalemate with the Wall just moving further south made up this time of Dragonglass. To me this would be more of bitter ending as compared to a bittersweet ending (as in most bittersweet endings the sweet part tends to trump the bitter part overall). Perhaps this teaser was just meant to signify one possible ending, with the intent to just sustain interest in the show with a possible relatively "negative" type of ending (which I suspect many fans would not be expecting).  

According to tv tropes one of the more common bittersweet endings is just to have a victory that is not final. So the Others will rise again. For what that is worth. 

But I think people are reading way too much into that teaser. 

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12 hours ago, Faera said:

:rofl:

I feel that the role of the kraken will be much greater in the books since Euron has a very good chance of playing an indirect - or even a direct - role in the coming of the Others. I'm still in love with the idea that he is something of a Proto-Bran that went wrong and not he is something of an Anti-Christ figure of the messianic role Bran is playing. It saddens me really that the final show down really does seem to be just a stand off between "Stargaryens" and crazy Cersei in the south. If she still holds power in the books by the end of Dream, I'll probably die of shock. 

Well, it would make more sense that the new wall - the "Antonian Wall" to the Ice Wall's Hadrian, in a way - was made out of something that actually kills the Others. It would be harder for them to break through presumably. And, y'know, don't leave a potential magical horn lying around that can take the Wall down and/or take your pet dragon into the Others' backyard.

Slightly OT but I have a friend who hypothesized that the Others are actually responding to a natural disaster that's about to sweep Westeros anyway in the form of volcanic activity. We know that the grounds around Dragonstone used to be active, and possibly North of the Wall around Hardhome depending on what theory you follow. 

The closer we get to the end of the show the more I like the book story.  Your friend has a neat idea.   I'm still stumped about what the others want in the books and and white walkers want in the show.  I seriously doubt they are about the same thing.  

I cant wait to see Lena Heady's Cersei die a horrible death.  She will bring something brilliant to Cersei's demise!  She makes nearly everything in the show either forgettable or forgiveable.  

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11 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

The closer we get to the end of the show the more I like the book story.  Your friend has a neat idea.   I'm still stumped about what the others want in the books and and white walkers want in the show.  I seriously doubt they are about the same thing.  

Well, one major difference is that they don't have a central "Night King" figure for Kit Harrington to have staring contests with. As neat as the character is, it really does feel as if they created him so they wouldn't have to flesh out the Others as a whole. This way it becomes about what "he" wants rather than "why are they doing this now?!" which, to me, is more compelling. Not least because D&D pretty much gave us the answer to why their dude does what he does -- because he is "death" and that's what the CotF "programmed" him to do. A part of me hopes that there is something deeper there, that the reason why he attacks them as much as the humans is because he wants justice for what was done to him. Yet I feel that might be going too deep for the show as it is now.

11 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

 I cant wait to see Lena Heady's Cersei die a horrible death.  She will bring something brilliant to Cersei's demise!  She makes nearly everything in the show either forgettable or forgiveable.  

I do have a major gripe with Cersei and that is that Lena Heady wasn't ever allowed to play her like book Cersei, which I think she would have been able to do an amazing job on.

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9 hours ago, Faera said:

Well, one major difference is that they don't have a central "Night King" figure for Kit Harrington to have staring contests with. As neat as the character is, it really does feel as if they created him so they wouldn't have to flesh out the Others as a whole. This way it becomes about what "he" wants rather than "why are they doing this now?!" which, to me, is more compelling. Not least because D&D pretty much gave us the answer to why their dude does what he does -- because he is "death" and that's what the CotF "programmed" him to do. A part of me hopes that there is something deeper there, that the reason why he attacks them as much as the humans is because he wants justice for what was done to him. Yet I feel that might be going too deep for the show as it is now.

I do have a major gripe with Cersei and that is that Lena Heady wasn't ever allowed to play her like book Cersei, which I think she would have been able to do an amazing job on.

Why is everyone stuck on this? The show quite clearly showed us the creation of the first other, and why they were created......to kill humans. Why then is there this need for the others to have a "deeper consciousness"? And if they do, what have they got against the humans? They are not the ones that created them, it was the Cotf. Should not their beef be with them? 

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2 minutes ago, Error-504 said:

Why is everyone stuck on this? The show quite clearly showed us the creation of the first other, and why they were created......to kill humans. Why then is there this need for the others to have a "deeper consciousness"? And if they do, what have they got against the humans? They are not the ones that created them, it was the Cotf. Should not their beef be with them? 

They don't seem to like the Children of the Forest, either, given they quite happily were killing them all too.

Anyway, I suppose it's because the circumstances of the Night King's creation opened up a lot of questions. By making him a human, everyone began to wonder "who was he?" and "does he remember what was done to him?" Leaving it at the purpose simply being to kill humans is a bit... blah. People like an origin story a lot of the time. Who was the Night King before be was turned? Did he make the other Others or were there ever more like him that were made by the CotF? Do they retain their memories? Does the fact they turned on their creators mean they consciously took distain to all life, not just humans, or do they still have an underlying hatred for the CotF and the humans for the circumstances that led them to be the way they are. These are all ways that could have made the Others more engaging to me personally. I know there are plenty of people who don't mind but it's just a pet peeve of mine how bland the Others are. Not least because now they've essentially suggested that the Night King is literally the keystone and killing him will just destroy them all. <_<

Besides, they can't all be simply-minded ice zombies because they deal made the deal with Craster, indicating that they are capable of looking beyond the blanket command of "kill humans". I see that also as a deeper consciousness of thought, and the fact the show will likely just forget about it is irritating to me.

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22 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

The closer we get to the end of the show the more I like the book story.  Your friend has a neat idea.   I'm still stumped about what the others want in the books and and white walkers want in the show.  I seriously doubt they are about the same thing.  

I cant wait to see Lena Heady's Cersei die a horrible death.  She will bring something brilliant to Cersei's demise!  She makes nearly everything in the show either forgettable or forgiveable.  

I think that the fixation with cersei is probably what has ruined the show the most.

If last season's infinite lannister army and cersei's ability to win and gather allies made little sense I can t imagine how people are supposed to react if she is a bigger threat than the others…

I can t be sure about the books, but the show would have improved a lot if they had faegon depose cersei with the help of the smallfolk, dorne and golden company.

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14 hours ago, divica said:

 

I can t be sure about the books, but the show would have improved a lot if they had faegon depose cersei with the help of the smallfolk, dorne and golden company.

Not introducing fAegon was the best choice the show has done so far, in terms of deriving from the books. I don't know how much you invest your time in movies and tv shows, but as someone who loves cinema and television, I can assure you, that at a certain point you achieve the limit of the number of characters that are constructive to the story. If you have one hour per episode, and you have 10 main characters and 20 supporting characters, you have 2 minutes per episode per character. That just becomes a mess from a quality perspective. The characters can not be fleshed out, they become just random exposition machines, for whom you don't (and should not) care. Not to mention that you don't even remeber them.

(I see that often book readers talk about the show as it were a book. It is not the same, and should not be compared. What works for a book does not work for a movie or a show and vice versa. )

 

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2 hours ago, T and A said:

Not introducing fAegon was the best choice the show has done so far, in terms of deriving from the books. I don't know how much you invest your time in movies and tv shows, but as someone who loves cinema and television, I can assure you, that at a certain point you achieve the limit of the number of characters that are constructive to the story. If you have one hour per episode, and you have 10 main characters and 20 supporting characters, you have 2 minutes per episode per character. That just becomes a mess from a quality perspective. The characters can not be fleshed out, they become just random exposition machines, for whom you don't (and should not) care. Not to mention that you don't even remeber them.

(I see that often book readers talk about the show as it were a book. It is not the same, and should not be compared. What works for a book does not work for a movie or a show and vice versa. )

 

Biggest mistake the show ever made was introducing so many new Dornish characters in Season 5

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3 hours ago, T and A said:

Not introducing fAegon was the best choice the show has done so far, in terms of deriving from the books. I don't know how much you invest your time in movies and tv shows, but as someone who loves cinema and television, I can assure you, that at a certain point you achieve the limit of the number of characters that are constructive to the story. If you have one hour per episode, and you have 10 main characters and 20 supporting characters, you have 2 minutes per episode per character. That just becomes a mess from a quality perspective. The characters can not be fleshed out, they become just random exposition machines, for whom you don't (and should not) care. Not to mention that you don't even remeber them.

(I see that often book readers talk about the show as it were a book. It is not the same, and should not be compared. What works for a book does not work for a movie or a show and vice versa. )

 

The merits of cutting Aegon can and have been debated to death. I still maintain that the decision to cut him should also have meant no Dorne though, that plot was...not good, without some kind of potential longer term plan

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7 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

The merits of cutting Aegon can and have been debated to death. I still maintain that the decision to cut him should also have meant no Dorne though, that plot was...not good, without some kind of potential longer term plan

I agree and I don’t.

I think the Dornish plot was not good. But it did not need Aegon for it to be good. 

Personally the ending to the Dornish plot on the show I thought was good. Cersei eliminating Dorne and taking her revenge on Ellaria and the whole plot being about the folly of vengeance. 

I think the problem was just execution. The Sand Snakes sucked. The fight scene in the water gardnes was abysmal. And the whole structure of the plot in Season 5 was just seriously flawed. 

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1 hour ago, HelenaExMachina said:

The merits of cutting Aegon can and have been debated to death. I still maintain that the decision to cut him should also have meant no Dorne though, that plot was...not good, without some kind of potential longer term plan

Totally agree about Dorne. Completely unneccesary and not important to the story. 

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6 hours ago, T and A said:

Not introducing fAegon was the best choice the show has done so far, in terms of deriving from the books. I don't know how much you invest your time in movies and tv shows, but as someone who loves cinema and television, I can assure you, that at a certain point you achieve the limit of the number of characters that are constructive to the story. If you have one hour per episode, and you have 10 main characters and 20 supporting characters, you have 2 minutes per episode per character. That just becomes a mess from a quality perspective. The characters can not be fleshed out, they become just random exposition machines, for whom you don't (and should not) care. Not to mention that you don't even remeber them.

(I see that often book readers talk about the show as it were a book. It is not the same, and should not be compared. What works for a book does not work for a movie or a show and vice versa. )

 

The problem of not including Aegon is that we end up with cersei's story becoming stupid and ridiculous. Cersei's sucesses last season make no sense. Not only would she have a major problem for exploding the sept but she is also an old queen without an heir or husband and her army has been fighting since season one but it seems to be endless.

The way the story is structured cersei just doesn t have the means to be a good final vilain. We needed someone new.

2 hours ago, jcmontea said:

I agree and I don’t.

I think the Dornish plot was not good. But it did not need Aegon for it to be good. 

Personally the ending to the Dornish plot on the show I thought was good. Cersei eliminating Dorne and taking her revenge on Ellaria and the whole plot being about the folly of vengeance. 

I think the problem was just execution. The Sand Snakes sucked. The fight scene in the water gardnes was abysmal. And the whole structure of the plot in Season 5 was just seriously flawed. 

 

2 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

The merits of cutting Aegon can and have been debated to death. I still maintain that the decision to cut him should also have meant no Dorne though, that plot was...not good, without some kind of potential longer term plan

In order to answer you all. As the show doesn t care about magic they should have just cut euron and all greyjoys except asha and theon. Then on the dornish plot they could simply have ignored the sandsnakes (that bring nothing to the story) and introduced doran and his 2 kids tristan and arianne. And then send arianne to fAegon and make doran's plan about marrying arianne and faegon and put them on the iron throne. 

We would have no magic involved but lots of scheming and twists. And we could have Aegon with dorne. the golden company and maybe the tyrells (in order to get revenge on the lannisters for killing marge and loras) supporting him. 

This is what would make more sense!

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9 hours ago, T and A said:

Not introducing fAegon was the best choice the show has done so far, in terms of deriving from the books. I don't know how much you invest your time in movies and tv shows, but as someone who loves cinema and television, I can assure you, that at a certain point you achieve the limit of the number of characters that are constructive to the story. If you have one hour per episode, and you have 10 main characters and 20 supporting characters, you have 2 minutes per episode per character. That just becomes a mess from a quality perspective. The characters can not be fleshed out, they become just random exposition machines, for whom you don't (and should not) care. Not to mention that you don't even remeber them.

(I see that often book readers talk about the show as it were a book. It is not the same, and should not be compared. What works for a book does not work for a movie or a show and vice versa. )

 

I prefer "Aegon" to Cersei. The idea of the heroes fighting each other appeals to me

much more than the good guys trying to fight the evil queen.

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2 hours ago, divica said:

The problem of not including Aegon is that we end up with cersei's story becoming stupid and ridiculous. Cersei's sucesses last season make no sense. Not only would she have a major problem for exploding the sept but she is also an old queen without an heir or husband and her army has been fighting since season one but it seems to be endless.

I understand that is your opinion and respect it. 

But the sense I get from reading reviews and just overall discussion of the show is that Cersei is actually seen as one of the shows strengths due to the actresss and character arc. 

Also, this idea that she would have a problem because of burning the sept I don’t think is really supported by the source material. 

Maegor burns down the sept in his day and no one in KL does anything or rises up in revolt. The people of Kl kill the dragons during the dance and then a year later are cheering Rhaena Targaryen as she flies over the city with her dragons. Revolts seem fundamentally random and the small folk completley fickle in both show and books. 

 

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