Season 8: News, Spoilers And Leaks

[Mladen]

19 minutes ago, Newstar said:

Sure it can, because GRRM has always said that the ending has always been the same. If the outline implies that Sansa was meant to die in 1993, she was meant to die in 1991 (when GRRM came up with the ending), and she's likely still meant to die. Even if she doesn't die, for GRRM's original ending to remain undisturbed by sparing Sansa, she can't end up with Winterfell, and she can't end up as queen (since those slots would be reserved for his real main characters, the big five). 

It's all pretty simple.

1. GRRM has always had the same ending since 1991.

2. He planned on killing off Sansa in 1993, so a dead Sansa was part of his original ending.

3. Therefore, he either still plans on still killing off Sansa (most likely), or on giving her an ending that doesn't conflict with his original ending, which presumably included who got Winterfell (Bran or Arya), who ended up as queen (Dany), etc.

4. Given that all the outline characters who died still ended up dead in the published books, if Outline Sansa died, ASOIAF Sansa is going to die as well.

Well, you can analyze ASOIAF and use 50 shades of Grey as your basis, that still doesn't make it correct. Simply, if the said analysis goes against what we already have, then it is the wrong analysis. Plain and simple.

Second, Sansa in outline and Sansa in the novels are as different as Sansa and Arya are. There is no reason to believe that whatever fate GRRM planned for that Sansa is the same for this one. That said, having read the outline, I can't remember that there being written anything about her death. Unless people think that the five main characters of the outline was supposed to be the only 5 people left in Planetos.

Also, taking those words without context and making predictions without considering the WRITTEN material is the same as arguing that Tyrion will burn Winterfell. Why don't we argue that? Because we have read the books and understand the significant differences that happened between 1996 and 2018. Given the writing, the amount of time and words spent on Sansa's education and growth, people really think that she is not one of the main characters of ASOIAF? Like really? That is like saying Hermione is not one of the main Harry Potter characters.

Simply, given what Martin is writing about, what we know are the main themes of ASOIAF, I simply can't but laugh at the idea of Sansa, the one we know, the one we have NOW, is not one of the series' main characters.

23 minutes ago, Newstar said:

Photos of Kit filming in Dubrovnik! He's filming on some kind of staircase. LOL at his high heeled boots. I don't know who those guys in black costumes with him are supposed to be. No other lead actors in the shot.

As I understood other news, Dubrovnik is also to be White Harbor this year. But, it is interesting to see the pictures pouring...

[jcmontea]

10 minutes ago, Risto said:

Well, you can analyze ASOIAF and use 50 shades of Grey as your basis, that still doesn't make it correct. Simply, if the said analysis goes against what we already have, then it is the wrong analysis. Plain and simple.

Second, Sansa in outline and Sansa in the novels are as different as Sansa and Arya are. There is no reason to believe that whatever fate GRRM planned for that Sansa is the same for this one. That said, having read the outline, I can't remember that there being written anything about her death. Unless people think that the five main characters of the outline was supposed to be the only 5 people left in Planetos.

Also, taking those words without context and making predictions without considering the WRITTEN material is the same as arguing that Tyrion will burn Winterfell. Why don't we argue that? Because we have read the books and understand the significant differences that happened between 1996 and 2018. Given the writing, the amount of time and words spent on Sansa's education and growth, people really think that she is not one of the main characters of ASOIAF? Like really? That is like saying Hermione is not one of the main Harry Potter characters.

Simply, given what Martin is writing about, what we know are the main themes of ASOIAF, I simply can't but laugh at the idea of Sansa, the one we know, the one we have NOW, is not one of the series' main characters.

As I understood other news, Dubrovnik is also to be White Harbor this year. But, it is interesting to see the pictures pouring...

GRRM specifically said the ending is the same one he envisioned back in the early 90s. That is why the outline is relevant. 

Of course he could be a.) lying or b.) mean ending in a very lose and general way. 

But that quote is why it is relevant and not bad analysis to go back to it. Bad analysis is to just wish it away because it could imply a story direction you don’t like.

[Meera of Tarth]

41 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

GRRM specifically said the ending is the same one he envisioned back in the early 90s. That is why the outline is relevant. 

Of course he could be a.) lying or b.) mean ending in a very lose and general way. 

But that quote is why it is relevant and not bad analysis to go back to it. Bad analysis is to just wish it away because it could imply a story direction you don’t like.

The outline and his original ending don't have to be the same the outline was written because they made him do it, but he doens't like planning everyhthing, on the contrary, his characters develop, only some things could be similar if anything. And we know many things are already very different. LIke I said, Jaime, Tyrion and Jon/Arya have very different characteristics, Cersei didn't even exist, etc. Sansa is a main character (maybe not one of the 5 most important ones, but still she is now a main, and has her own story), etc.

[larastone]

1 hour ago, Newstar said:

Photos of Kit filming in Dubrovnik! He's filming on some kind of staircase. LOL at his high heeled boots. I don't know who those guys in black costumes with him are supposed to be. No other lead actors in the shot.

I'm so confused about these photos. what the fuck is going on. 

[larastone]

23 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

The outline and his original ending don't have to be the same the outline was written because they made him do it, but he doens't like planning everyhthing, on the contrary, his characters develop, only some things could be similar if anything. And we know many things are already very different. LIke I said, Jaime, Tyrion and Jon/Arya have very different characteristics, Cersei didn't even exist, etc. Sansa is a main character (maybe not one of the 5 most important ones, but still she is now a main, and has her own story), etc.

its very possible that Cersei did exist, but had no other role than just being Joffrey's mother. hence no mention of her in the outline. 

[AEJON TARGARYEN]

1 hour ago, Newstar said:

Photos of Kit filming in Dubrovnik! He's filming on some kind of staircase. LOL at his high heeled boots. I don't know who those guys in black costumes with him are supposed to be. No other lead actors in the shot.

Great! He's with Tully men. 

[Newstar]

 

2 hours ago, Risto said:

That said, having read the outline, I can't remember that there being written anything about her death.

These points have already been discussed, but briefly:

1. Outline Sansa is not one of the main five guaranteed safe passage through all three books, even though Bran, Arya and Jon are.

2. The books are described in the outline as a coming of age story for these five characters. Surely that would apply to Sansa, too, were she to live through the books. Sansa can't have a coming of age story if she dies, though.

3. The part in the outline where GRRM says that Bran, Arya, Jon, etc. will make it through all three (as then planned) volumes is preceded by a bit where GRRM says that he'll kill off sympathetic POV characters and wants to create the impression that no character is safe.

4. Outline Sansa bears Joffrey's son and is befriended by Tyrion (who also befriends Arya).

5. After Joffrey's death, Outline Jaime takes the throne by murdering everyone ahead of him in the line of succession and blaming Tyrion for the murders. This would include Sansa's son. There is no further mention of Sansa in the outline after this.

6. Right after discussing the murders, the outline states that an "exiled" Tyrion makes "common cause with the surviving Starks" to bring down his brother. Since there's no mention of Sansa escaping with Tyrion, by extension Sansa isn't one of the "surviving Starks," 

TLDR: Outline Sansa dies in KL, murdered by Jaime.

 

Quote

Also, taking those words without context and making predictions without considering the WRITTEN material is the same as arguing that Tyrion will burn Winterfell. Why don't we argue that?

1. The obvious divergences between the outline and the ASOIAF in terms of plot--Tyrion burning Winterfell and not Ramsay, e.g.--are irrelevant to a discussion of whether Sansa will survive in ASOIAF because the ending has always been the same since 1991.

2. All the named characters who died in the outline died in ASOIAF, even if the circumstances of their death differed.

3. There are several clear clues that Outline Sansa dies.

4. GRRM planned an ending that didn't include Sansa in 1993.

5. If the ending has always the same since 1991, the ending to ASOIAF won't include Sansa, either at all (most likely) or (less likely) in relation to the big ticket items (who gets Winterfell, who rules the North, who sits the throne, etc.), since GRRM decided those without any reference to Sansa.

6. GRRM recently talked about a character he had in mind who was always doomed, but whose method of death he hadn't decided on until recently. He probably wasn't talking about Sansa, but it does confirm that there are certain characters in GRRM's mind who have always been doomed, even if he hasn't quite decided how they're going to go.

TLDR: Sansa won't get Winterfell, she won't be any sort of queen, and she'll likely die.

All these arguments are based on the books, but Sophie certainly hasn't been filming very much for S8, which would make perfect sense if she dies partway through the season.

 

1 hour ago, Meera of Tarth said:

The outline and his original ending don't have to be the same

The original ending has always been the same. If it didn't include Sansa in 1993, it won't include her in 2019 (when we get the broad strokes version of GRRM's ending), either in any significant fashion or at all.

 

51 minutes ago, TRILOGY said:

Great! He's with Tully men. 

Could this scene be from Riverrun? I remember that scene from S6 where Brienne and the Blackfish are walking around the castle.

[Neverborn]

I think the biggest hint that sansa will survive (at least in the show) is the fact that D&D actually invested some time / development in her character arc.

Sure GRRM might plan to build sansa up first so her death is more shocking / impactful (also I think that would actually be quite cheap storytelling). But D&D clearly don't think / write this way. Just take a look what happens with characters / story arcs that have no significance to the endgame (dorne, fAegon, stoneheart, rickon). Just look what happened to stannis .

If D&D don't need a character for their endgame he gets killed of or at the least isn't honoured with character development / screentime until he reaches the point where his death serves another characters arc (ohhh, rickons powerfull dialogs in season 6 ).

Sure D&D also build up some characters to make their death more impactful (karsi, shireen), but they don't put that over the arcs of more important characters.

With sansa it is actually the other way around: they push back undeniable more important characters (jon, arya) to establish sansa as a "badass" (if she actually is one is another question). Like when they needed jon to fuck up the botb to have sansa "save" him.

Here some examples from season 7:

Cogman stating that he intended the jon sansa conflict in e2 to illustrate how jon doesn't include sansa in his plan so she needs to argue in public.

Sansa warning jon about cersei attacking the north (which seemed moronic at this point) in e1 and jon ignoring her warning (guess what happens in season 8 ).

Tyrions "she is more intelligent than she lets out" in e3. Sansas "ruling skills" from e3 (veeeery subtle D&D).

Both D&D and sophie turner were quite vocal about sansa now being a "big player" / politician in their interviews (classic D&D tell-don't-show-principle).

It can all be summarized in D&D not being able to establish a character as important / intelligent without hurting another characters arc or dumping him down.

And in regards to sansa we have multible examples of other more important characters (jon, arya, littlefinger) being dumped down / pushed aside to establish sansa as a "player of the game".

Now both GRRM and D&D could simply build her up to fall deeper. But personally I think that GRRM is to talented and D&D not talented enough for that.

If that is their goal than D&D might give her an emotional moment with arya before it happens (stannis & shireen style). But they wouldn't sacrifice so much screentime on a character that dies of without any impact to the endgame or the story in general.

Regardless how things play out in the books (or what the outline says): we have to keep the D&D-logic in mind when we make predictions for show sansa.

 

[jcmontea]

15 minutes ago, Neverborn said:

I think the biggest hint that sansa will survive (at least in the show) is the fact that D&D actually invested some time / development in her character arc.

Didn’t Robb have a whole ton of time invested in him? Way more than the books?

 

[AEJON TARGARYEN]

26 minutes ago, Neverborn said:

But they wouldn't sacrifice so much screentime on a character that dies of without any impact to the endgame or the story in general.

If she dies, she dies, but I wouldn't call a character with 223 minutes of screen time irrelevant. 

[jcmontea]

3 minutes ago, TRILOGY said:

If she dies, she dies, but I wouldn't call a character with 223 minutes of screen time irrelevant. 

[Neverborn]

8 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

Didn’t Robb have a whole ton of time invested in him? Way more than the books?

 

True. But with robb that was the case from the start (show only) and not just invented later. With sansa it was basically a 180 degree turn between season 3 and season 4 in both the way she was portrayed on  screen, her amount of screentime and the way D&D talk about her character in behind the scenes and interviews. She basically was just an afterthought in the early seasons and suddenly got an extended role in the later. Why should D&D turn her from a minor to a major character if she dies without any importance?

And with robbs extended role in comparision to the books: I think part of that is also that they liked robb more than catelyn, so they gave robb parts of cats arc. That isn't really comparable since both died at the same event. They just shifted the main focus of the red wedding to the character that suited them more.

[Neverborn]

5 minutes ago, TRILOGY said:

If she dies, she dies, but I wouldn't call a character with 223 minutes of screen time irrelevant. 

Neither would I. I just think that D&D simply wouldn't give that amount of screentime to a character that dies without a real impact to the endgame (because lets be real: sansa dying would have almost no impact to the plot of season 8). And because I don't see D&D giving screentime and character development to her simply to tell her story arc faithfully (cough stannis cough).

[divica]

7 minutes ago, Neverborn said:

Neither would I. I just think that D&D simply wouldn't give that amount of screentime to a character that dies without a real impact to the endgame (because lets be real: sansa dying would have almost no impact to the plot of season 8). And because I don't see D&D giving screentime and character development to her simply to tell her story arc faithfully (cough stannis cough).

Sansa only impact in season 7 was kiling LF. The rest was a very bad arc invented by D&D.

The truth is that in the last 2 seasons sansa had no story. We had 2 awful and confusing arcs in season 6 and 7 where she harmed jon and arya's story more than anything else. Nobody understands why she hid the army of the vale from jon or her meeting with LF shortly after leaving CB. Then in this season we had her strange relation with LF (which no one really understands) and her weirder relation with arya that ended in LF death... In the midle we found out that sansa knows more about winter armor than profession soldiers.

I think we can conclude that sansa is learning the politics and logistics of ruling a castle in either books or show. But D&D simply can t write a story for her without harming the story of other characters... And with jon and danny arriving at winterfell sansa once again simply has no story. She will be na extra for most of the season unless D&D create another stupid arc so she has shit to do until she is necessary.

[Neverborn]

4 minutes ago, divica said:

Sansa only impact in season 7 was kiling LF. The rest was a very bad arc invented by D&D.

Invented by D&D is just my point why I think it is unlikely that D&D will kill her of in season 8. Why would they invent their own stuff to give sansa something to do through the later seasons (despite limitid episodes and more important characters they could write about), if they don't need her to play some part in the endgame?

[divica]

23 minutes ago, Neverborn said:

Invented by D&D is just my point why I think it is unlikely that D&D will kill her of in season 8. Why would they invent their own stuff to give sansa something to do through the later seasons (despite limitid episodes and more important characters they could write about), if they don't need her to play some part in the endgame?

It can be easily explained.

She had to kill littlefinger and they didn t want to kill littlefinger too early.

So they had to create stories for the 2 characters that made them relevant until they were ready to kill LF.

No sansa can die some gruesome and unexpected death... She achieved the objective of her story

[Meera of Tarth]

2 hours ago, larastone said:

its very possible that Cersei did exist, but had no other role than just being Joffrey's mother. hence no mention of her in the outline. 

Yes, but now Cersei has become an important character, and has lots of traits of Jaime from the outline. That's what I am referring to. Characters who were not important initially could now have their own story, just like very possibly Sansa.

[Mladen]

3 hours ago, jcmontea said:

GRRM specifically said the ending is the same one he envisioned back in the early 90s. That is why the outline is relevant. 

Of course he could be a.) lying or b.) mean ending in a very lose and general way. 

But that quote is why it is relevant and not bad analysis to go back to it. Bad analysis is to just wish it away because it could imply a story direction you don’t like.

Obviously the story extensively diverged from what was planned so it is not out of reach to conclude that the ending would go through some changes. Especially if you change a lot of plot points around the main characters have changed.

The problem I have is that the analysis that many people do with regard to the outline is that they behave as ASOIAF never actually happened. I don't wish it away, I just think that thousands of pages GRRM has written (and hundreds of pages dedicated to one particular character) count for more than broad strokes made 20+ years ago.

44 minutes ago, divica said:

The truth is that in the last 2 seasons sansa had no story. We had 2 awful and confusing arcs in season 6 and 7 where she harmed jon and arya's story more than anything else. Nobody understands why she hid the army of the vale from jon or her meeting with LF shortly after leaving CB. Then in this season we had her strange relation with LF (which no one really understands) and her weirder relation with arya that ended in LF death... In the midle we found out that sansa knows more about winter armor than profession soldiers.

Plain and simple: Gandalf at the Helm's Deep. 

Or if you prefer: Theoden at the Pelennor Fields.

45 minutes ago, divica said:

I think we can conclude that sansa is learning the politics and logistics of ruling a castle in either books or show. But D&D simply can t write a story for her without harming the story of other characters... And with jon and danny arriving at winterfell sansa once again simply has no story. She will be na extra for most of the season unless D&D create another stupid arc so she has shit to do until she is necessary.

I think both her and Tyrion will go through this identity crisis with Jon and Dany, as D&D for the sake of their lives can't make two main characters work together without making one utterly stupid. That said, if this ever gets translated to books, I expect Sansa to be of great use to Jon/Dany when the time comes.

[divica]

4 minutes ago, Risto said:

I think both her and Tyrion will go through this identity crisis with Jon and Dany, as D&D for the sake of their lives can't make two main characters work together without making one utterly stupid. That said, if this ever gets translated to books, I expect Sansa to be of great use to Jon/Dany when the time comes.

I think book sansa would be a good help to manage the logistics and political aspirations of the vassals of lord. But the show simply doesn t care about those things...

And you are absolutly right about D&D. I can t even imagine how they will manage with so many characters in winterfell. They have to kill a lot of them lol

[Neverborn]

9 minutes ago, divica said:

She had to kill littlefinger and they didn t want to kill littlefinger too early

Well, technically sansa didn't beat LF, bran did. And I also don't see what LF achieved in the last 3 seasons that required him to be kept alive.

But what ever. D&D will have their "reasons" and we will know in 2019.