Oldtown is weird

[TMIFairy]

41 minutes ago, Sigella said:

Look at the map. Traveling Volantis-Oldtown is twice the distance of Volantis-Saltpans.

Going the long way by sea still is faster and cheaper than hauling stuff overland from Saltpans to Oldtown.

I think I read somewhere that Maidenpool was refused a town charter by whoever ruled the Riverlands at that time, thus stunting its growth.

It was interesting to learn from this thread that the Blackwater is not very navigable. Yet I seem to remember that Harrenhall was built where it was built as the Gods Eye lake could be used to harbour the Ironborn fleet, which from there could sail to the Blackwater and from there either west - to subdue rebellions in the SW of the Riverlands or to launch attacks at the Reacth or Westerlands. Or go east, reach the sea and then go around Cracklaw Point to the mouth of the Trident and then up whatever Fork was necessary.

[Sigella]

50 minutes ago, TMIFairy said:

Going the long way by sea still is faster and cheaper than hauling stuff overland from Saltpans to Oldtown.

I think I read somewhere that Maidenpool was refused a town charter by whoever ruled the Riverlands at that time, thus stunting its growth.

It was interesting to learn from this thread that the Blackwater is not very navigable. Yet I seem to remember that Harrenhall was built where it was built as the Gods Eye lake could be used to harbour the Ironborn fleet, which from there could sail to the Blackwater and from there either west - to subdue rebellions in the SW of the Riverlands or to launch attacks at the Reacth or Westerlands. Or go east, reach the sea and then go around Cracklaw Point to the mouth of the Trident and then up whatever Fork was necessary.

Yeah maybe. Does quite sit right to me though. I can't think why they wouldn't ship stuff themselves to a spot with better opportunities.

edit: maybe its just wishful thinking on my part, wanting a western surprise

[Free Northman Reborn]

1 hour ago, Sigella said:

Look at the map. Traveling Volantis-Oldtown is twice the distance of Volantis-Saltpans.

So? It's also farther than Volantis-Sunspear. But what's the point of taking goods to Saltpans or Sunspear, if the big population is living in the Reach?

[Sigella]

56 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

So? It's also farther than Volantis-Sunspear. But what's the point of taking goods to Saltpans or Sunspear, if the big population is living in the Reach?

Oh now I get your point! More people for the visiting trades to sell to in the Reach, sure. Cant disagree other than, in such a case - why they don't trade the most at Lannisport where there are al lot more gold to be had?

[Jaehaerys Tyrell]

Westeros is an entire continent, so the existence of Oldtown (and Lannisport) could be justified as they handle trade from all along the western side of the continent. 

And for those who subscribe to a post-apocalyptic Planetos theory, Oldtown and Lannisport could be relics from trade that took place across an Atlantic/Pacific type ocean that is no longer navigable with Westerosi technology. 

Edit - so they may have traded across the ocean with Yi Ti or Ulthos or even some “Americos” continent 

[Free Northman Reborn]

2 minutes ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

Westeros is an entire continent, so the existence of Oldtown (and Lannisport) could be justified as they handle trade from all along the western side of the continent. 

And for those who subscribe to a post-apocalyptic Planetos theory, Oldtown and Lannisport could be relics from trade that took place across an Atlantic/Pacific type ocean that is no longer navigable with Westerosi technology. 

Edit - so they may have traded across the ocean with Yi Ti or Ulthos or even some “Americos” continent 

I think a view that is far closer to the truth is that any intercontinental trade more than 5000 years ago was miniscule, and that 90% of the economy of Westerosi towns and cities of that era revolved around Westeros itself, and for the most part, the particular sub-region of Westeros in which the city was located.

The Narrow Sea trade economy as we know it today did not exist. And trade with Ghis or the Summer Isles etc. would have been difficult, challenging and would have made up a very small part of the economic activity of any Westerosi settlement. Else we would have seen more trade towns spring up on the Narrow Sea coast. Instead, we had only Oldtown, with nothing of import on the Westerosi coast for thousands of miles to the East until we get Gulltown.

Even White Harbor only really grew into a city once Braavos was founded.

[Jon Fossoway]

3 hours ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

 

And for those who subscribe to a post-apocalyptic Planetos theory

Whut? What did I miss?

[falcotron]

10 hours ago, Sigella said:

The wines are produced on the Arbor, which makes the trading route even weirder as the Arbor lies closer to Dorne than the Reach.

No it doesn't. The Arbor is off the southwest coast of the Reach, directly across a narrow strait from the Whispering Sound (the bay that the Oldtown is at the neck of). It's a pretty long way from there to even the Marches, much less to Sunspear.

And the Arbor and Oldtown have been closely linked ever since both joined the Reach. They even shared a navy during the Andal invasion.

[Sigella]

17 minutes ago, falcotron said:

No it doesn't. The Arbor is off the southwest coast of the Reach, directly across a narrow strait from the Whispering Sound (the bay that the Oldtown is at the neck of). It's a pretty long way from there to even the Marches, much less to Sunspear.

And the Arbor and Oldtown have been closely linked ever since both joined the Reach. They even shared a navy during the Andal invasion.

Youre right, it sits west of the southernmost part of the Reach. Pretty darn close to Dorne though.

[TheSeason]

11 hours ago, Sigella said:

The Arm broke 12 000 years ago when the Andals invaded. I doubt that the Children built Oldtown prior  

There were men living in ancient Oldtown long before the Andals came. No hard labor or masonry skills by Children of the Forest needed. 

Or did you mean the First Men? The invasion of the First Men took a long time, and they conquered and even cleared forest away from lands even to the North before (the Children) "broke" the Arm of Dorne with the Hammer of the Waters. And, yes, even then Oldtown was an ancient military and trading outpost (beginning with Battle Isle and the base of the Hightower, around which Oldtown sprung up)! The First First Men (of that ancient unnamed empire) likely founded it. It's why they call it "Oldtown!" A city has to be pretty dang old if its origins are "lost in the mists of time and clouded by legend," so much so that people actually believe the gods themselves founded it, and even "the children of the forest" themselves (via certain maesters) argue that they (and other "elder races") bartered with men there! And they should know (the Children), because of the heart trees. 

Quote

The Reach: Oldtown, The World of Ice and Fire

No history of the Reach is complete without a look at Oldtown, that most grand and ancient of cities, still the richest, largest, and most beautiful in all Westeros, even if King's Landing has eclipsed it as most populous.

How old is Oldtown, truly? Many a maester has pondered that question, but we simply do not know. The origins of the city are lost in the mists of time and clouded by legend. Some ignorant septons claim that the Seven themselves laid out its boundaries, other men that dragons once roosted on the Battle Isle until the first Hightower put an end to them. Many smallfolk believe the Hightower itself simply appeared one day. The full and true history of the founding of Oldtown will likely never be known.

We can state with certainty, however, that men have lived at the mouth of the Honeywine since the Dawn Age. The oldest runic records confirm this, as do certain fragmentary accounts that have come down to us from maesters who lived amongst the children of the forest. One such, Maester Jellicoe, suggests that the settlement at the top of Whispering Sound began as a trading post, where ships from Valyria, Old Ghis, and the Summer Isles put in to replenish their provisions, make repairs, and barter with the elder races, and that seems as likely a supposition as any.

 

Also, you mentioned above that you think other cities might have been greedy enough to ship goods from the Reach en masse from a closer location on the Narrow Sea to (wherever(?))... but if they tried it, the kings/lords and merchants of the Reach and Oldtown would have been greedy--and angry--enough to slap incredibly high tariffs on their precious goods to lords and merchants coming from those cities to trade, so as to discourage such underhanded tactics. The Stormlords were likely more interested in goods from the Reach than the reverse, which would make this an effective but unofficial "trade embargo" until they learned their lesson and coughed up the dough they'd cheated the Reachmen out of (one way or another). 

Not that this really matters, because, it's already been established that sea trade is vastly more fluid, efficient, and cost-effective to overland trade (even on the muddy roads between the Reach and the Stormlands, for instance, banditry alone would have been a major incentive to use sea travel (despite piracy: it's easier to outrun a pirate on the sea, almost never out of sight of land, than a bandit on a mud road with oxen-drawn carts of expensive goods and a limited security detail!), not to mention the economic incentive of greater profits!), so this means the (Stormlords) would have to ship goods from the Reach to their own ports (again, with the Arm being a major obstacle to overcome before its breaking), which simply eats away to almost-nil any insanely lucrative profits you think they could make by shipping Reach goods overseas at a reduced cost (to entice merchants to buy there as opposed to from the Reach lands). This simply is not a cost-effective strategy (where are they getting the massive surplus that would be required to effect it?) and actually requires them to shell out more money to implement (not less) and would raise the price of goods from the Reach as sold in the (Stormlands) ports, especially when the Reach kings/lords and merchants learned of their underhanded tactics and slapped massive tariffs on exports to the (Stormlands) (to teach them their place and to discourage other sneaky kings, lords, and merchants from getting the same idea).

Even if this was possible to do (it isn't!), it would be even worse for the (Stormkings/lords and merchants) if the Reachmen decided to use their own tactics against them (by selling their products cheaply in the Reach alongside coveted Reach land goods, as well as increasing tariffs or limiting trade of the most coveted goods with their rivals, so they can never acquire a sufficient surplus) thereby crippling the (Stormlands) import-export economy whilst supplementing or strengthening their own (again, because the Reach produce more precious goods than the (Stormlands) can provide to the world). 

Essentially, what you're doing in this suggestion is inserting a middleman, who needs to be paid enough to make the effort worth his while (actually, several middlemen, but we'll not go into that), when instead merchants from afar who wish to trade could easily and more cheaply simply go to the source (the Reach) for their discount.

Quite simply: you can cut out the middleman, but you cannot cut out the source! Economics 101. 

ETA: It appears it was Falcotron who brought up my example state, the Stormlands.

[falcotron]

21 minutes ago, Sigella said:

Youre right, it sits west of the southernmost part of the Reach. Pretty darn close to Dorne though.

No, not that close to Dorne. It's all the way across the continent from Sunspear, which is where Dornish trade is centered. Even if you only wanted to go to Starfall for some reason, it's still a third of the way across the continent. And if you want to start arguing, "Well, a third of a continent isn't that big a deal", then you're dismissing the point of this thread, and there's no question of why people would trade with Oldtown in the first place.

At any rate, sure, you could stop in at Sunspear on the way to or from the Arbor—but even if you did, why would you skip Oldtown, right across a narrow strait, where all of the best produce and finished goods of Westeros are for sale, and there are people to buy your most expensive goods? It's like trading with the north San Francisco Bay and deciding not to stop in San Francisco because you've already got Tijuana on the way there.

[Foot_Of_The_King]

On 10/1/2017 at 11:03 AM, Graydon Hicks said:

or maybe it was built in response to a land that may have suck in to the sea thousands of years ago? it seems odd that martin has really brought in any atlantis parallels for this story.

I always thought the Roman parallel was obvious.

[Falcon2909]

Oldtown started out as a fortress. (The fused stone structure that sits on battle isle is evident of that). It's earliest inhabitants were of the Great Empire of the Dawn. The battle must have been between the Bloodstone Emperor and the Amethyst Empress Loyalist forces, or between the Deep ones and the Amethyst Empress Loyalist forces

[Sigella]

11 hours ago, falcotron said:

No, not that close to Dorne. It's all the way across the continent from Sunspear, which is where Dornish trade is centered. Even if you only wanted to go to Starfall for some reason, it's still a third of the way across the continent. And if you want to start arguing, "Well, a third of a continent isn't that big a deal", then you're dismissing the point of this thread, and there's no question of why people would trade with Oldtown in the first place.

At any rate, sure, you could stop in at Sunspear on the way to or from the Arbor—but even if you did, why would you skip Oldtown, right across a narrow strait, where all of the best produce and finished goods of Westeros are for sale, and there are people to buy your most expensive goods? It's like trading with the north San Francisco Bay and deciding not to stop in San Francisco because you've already got Tijuana on the way there.

Um.. How is Dorne "a third of the continent" away from Arbor? Its right next to it.

[Sigella]

11 hours ago, TheSeason said:

There were men living in ancient Oldtown long before the Andals came. No hard labor or masonry skills by Children of the Forest needed. 

Or did you mean the First Men? The invasion of the First Men took a long time, and they conquered and even cleared forest away from lands even to the North before (the Children) "broke" the Arm of Dorne with the Hammer of the Waters. And, yes, even then Oldtown was an ancient military and trading outpost (beginning with Battle Isle and the base of the Hightower, around which Oldtown sprung up)! The First First Men (of that ancient unnamed empire) likely founded it. It's why they call it "Oldtown!" A city has to be pretty dang old if its origins are "lost in the mists of time and clouded by legend," so much so that people actually believe the gods themselves founded it, and even "the children of the forest" themselves (via certain maesters) argue that they (and other "elder races") bartered with men there! And they should know (the Children), because of the heart trees. 

 

Also, you mentioned above that you think other cities might have been greedy enough to ship goods from the Reach en masse from a closer location on the Narrow Sea to (wherever(?))... but if they tried it, the kings/lords and merchants of the Reach and Oldtown would have been greedy--and angry--enough to slap incredibly high tariffs on their precious goods to lords and merchants coming from those cities to trade, so as to discourage such underhanded tactics. The Stormlords were likely more interested in goods from the Reach than the reverse, which would make this an effective but unofficial "trade embargo" until they learned their lesson and coughed up the dough they'd cheated the Reachmen out of (one way or another). 

Not that this really matters, because, it's already been established that sea trade is vastly more fluid, efficient, and cost-effective to overland trade (even on the muddy roads between the Reach and the Stormlands, for instance, banditry alone would have been a major incentive to use sea travel (despite piracy: it's easier to outrun a pirate on the sea, almost never out of sight of land, than a bandit on a mud road with oxen-drawn carts of expensive goods and a limited security detail!), not to mention the economic incentive of greater profits!), so this means the (Stormlords) would have to ship goods from the Reach to their own ports (again, with the Arm being a major obstacle to overcome before its breaking), which simply eats away to almost-nil any insanely lucrative profits you think they could make by shipping Reach goods overseas at a reduced cost (to entice merchants to buy there as opposed to from the Reach lands). This simply is not a cost-effective strategy (where are they getting the massive surplus that would be required to effect it?) and actually requires them to shell out more money to implement (not less) and would raise the price of goods from the Reach as sold in the (Stormlands) ports, especially when the Reach kings/lords and merchants learned of their underhanded tactics and slapped massive tariffs on exports to the (Stormlands) (to teach them their place and to discourage other sneaky kings, lords, and merchants from getting the same idea).

Even if this was possible to do (it isn't!), it would be even worse for the (Stormkings/lords and merchants) if the Reachmen decided to use their own tactics against them (by selling their products cheaply in the Reach alongside coveted Reach land goods, as well as increasing tariffs or limiting trade of the most coveted goods with their rivals, so they can never acquire a sufficient surplus) thereby crippling the (Stormlands) import-export economy whilst supplementing or strengthening their own (again, because the Reach produce more precious goods than the (Stormlands) can provide to the world). 

Essentially, what you're doing in this suggestion is inserting a middleman, who needs to be paid enough to make the effort worth his while (actually, several middlemen, but we'll not go into that), when instead merchants from afar who wish to trade could easily and more cheaply simply go to the source (the Reach) for their discount.

Quite simply: you can cut out the middleman, but you cannot cut out the source! Economics 101. 

ETA: It appears it was Falcotron who brought up my example state, the Stormlands.

Firstly the Arm broke 12 000 years ago, I'm thinking of the period of time after it broke.

Picture this:

Gardener-King: "Hey you have a port that lies much closer to Essos, wanna make a deal and sell our produce there and share the profits?"

Duskendale-merchant: "Sounds awesome, start shipping!"

How is this such an unthinkable scenario? I don't get the problem.

[elder brother jonothor dar]

5 minutes ago, Sigella said:

Firstly the Arm broke 12 000 years ago, I'm thinking of the period of time after it broke.

Picture this:

Gardener-King: "Hey you have a port that lies much closer to Essos, wanna make a deal and sell our produce there and share the profits?"

Duskendale-merchant: "Sounds awesome, start shipping!"

How is this such an unthinkable scenario? I don't get the problem.

The weight of the products would be prohibitive to ship accross an entire country (think 7k = 7 country)

An agreement might be in place from time to time but the fact that there are constant wars both local and between kingdoms would prevent establishing a steady trade route.

The fact that Duskendale has not grown like Whiteharbour despite being central and surrounded by fertile land suggests that trade is not a big driver for growth in that region at that time, and/or in more recent times peace did not exist long enough to expand before being eclipsed by Kings Landing.

[AlaskanSandman]

On 10/1/2017 at 5:31 PM, falcotron said:

We're repeatedly told that before Aegon the land was undeveloped. The first time is in AGoT Catelyn IV: "Three hundred years ago, Catelyn knew, those heights had been covered with forest, and only a handful of fisherfolk had lived on the north shore of the Blackwater Rush where that deep, swift river flowed into the sea. Then Aegon the Conqueror had sailed from Dragonstone. It was here that his army had put ashore, and there on the highest hill that he built his first crude redoubt of wood and earth."

We're also told that, unlike the branches of the Trident, the Blackwater Rush was not a useful trade river because its currents are "wicked and treacherous". People fought over it because the river was a great natural border to push your enemies beyond—as we saw at Aegon's time, with the Hoares having successfully claimed the northern shore of the river from Argilac Durrandon, leaving the Stormlands unable to strike back into the RIverlands.

WoIaF says: "This modest Targaryen host put ashore at the mouth of the Blackwater Rush, on the northern bank where three wooded hills rose above a small fishing village." Way back in the days of the Hundred Kingdoms, "many petty kings had claimed dominion over the river mouth," but in all that time, "Towers and forts had crowned the three hills at various times, only to be thrown down in one war or another". In other words, it was just some land on the border of petty kingdoms like Duskendale and Stonedance that they occasionally fortified but never did anything more with.

So, where do you find any evidence of a great city there, or a kingdom centered there?

The Order of the Green Hand was in the Reach, centered at Highgarden, halfway across the continent.

The Green Men are on the Isle of Faces, in the Riverlands, far from the mouth of Blackwater Rush; the only connection is that the unnamed river that flows south from the Gods Eye meets up with the Blackwater Rush at some point.

This is only one side of the Blackwater rush. Plus, the only information we have for most of this is TWOIAF from Maesters who seem to be hiding much else, or at least missing information and assume alot. None of this was direct evidence either. You really gotta read and relax a lil on that. All im doing is simply conjuring an idea there is little evidence for or against. It does seem highly unlikely that no city on the eastern coast would become a trade city with Essos given it's direct latitude to Pentos. Direct proximity to Braavos, Lys, Myr, Tyrosh, Andalos, and Rhoynar before them. Not to mention Valyria. Or did they all have to go through Old Town? 

And really? Given the vagaries, you really can't make any logical connections between the Order of the Green Hand, The Order of the Green Men, and the Green King of the God's Eye with out it being directly spelled out? I know it sounds like something that would just be tied to the Gardeners, but really? House Manderly who was even booted out by the Gardeners? Who the Mander is probably named after. Its not named the Gardener River. House Manderly also still claims this title. 

You know the Riverlands couldve originally been apart of the same kingdom. Rivers also change their course with time..... Just saying. The Rubecon doesn't even exist any more. 

Some times it's not about what the text is saying, but about what it's not saying, or also who is saying what.

[elder brother jonothor dar]

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Some times it's not about what the text is saying, but about what it's not saying, or also who is saying what

Credit where credit is due, the text is definitely not saying there was a city in the river/crown lands before KL.

Gulltown is the Vale city where the Andals landed established authority and grew accordingly.

Whiteharbour was a military base and grew into a city with the north stable and trade over the narrow sea.

Kings Landing takes over from the port towns on the Blackwater after Aegon establishes peace and trade flows through it.

But I guess there could have been a kingdom that established peace on the south side of the river, built a large trade port big enough to be classed a city, then disappears without any ruins as it's not stated in the text such a place didn't exist.

[Lady Hightower]

I believe not only the port was critical for the growth of Oldtown, but also the Citadel.

The Citadel was founded during the Age of The Heroes, before the Andals came to Westeros, which is weird considering that the first men didn´t use writting, only runes. The children of the forest and the first men lived in harmony at that time, perhaps the Citadel first purpose was to gather knowledge they acquired through the children, like healing arts and construction methods. People started to travel to Oldtown seeking for the cure of many dieases. The more visitors Oldtown received the more taxes the lords of the port collected and the city kept growing.

After the Andals invasion, Oldtown lost its contact with the children, but on the other hand they started using writting to record all the knoledge and as time passed the histories from the children were forgotten, however the Citadel started to change into the current university model.

The question is, nowadays the Citadel is only finnaced by House Hightower or they receive some contributions from the other lords from the seven kingdons?

[Sigella]

22 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I think a view that is far closer to the truth is that any intercontinental trade more than 5000 years ago was miniscule, and that 90% of the economy of Westerosi towns and cities of that era revolved around Westeros itself, and for the most part, the particular sub-region of Westeros in which the city was located.

The Narrow Sea trade economy as we know it today did not exist. And trade with Ghis or the Summer Isles etc. would have been difficult, challenging and would have made up a very small part of the economic activity of any Westerosi settlement. Else we would have seen more trade towns spring up on the Narrow Sea coast. Instead, we had only Oldtown, with nothing of import on the Westerosi coast for thousands of miles to the East until we get Gulltown.

Even White Harbor only really grew into a city once Braavos was founded.

I think you're underestimating the scale of trade during medieval times. It was small but very much a fact already during the viking age and it flourished during the medieval period. And its been 6000 years since the Andals invaded and 12 000 years since the arm broke - which means plenty of time to re-adjust.