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Star Trek: Discovery #2, set phasers to stunned.

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50 minutes ago, ithanos said:

I'm also confused about Ashvoq. I would've referred it being just Voq - who had surgery to convert his physiology to pass as human, and had implanted upon him the false memories of Ash. Like Doug Quaid in Total Recall - where the new persona realises the old one was an asshole and would rather keep with the new, simple.

I'm liking this show but some things still irk. Why have both Sarek and Cornwall comment on Alt Giorgiou's resemblance, to their Giorgiou, as being remarkable? Argh! There is no resemblance - its the same person but from an alternate universe.

I was also a bit "No shit" with the revelation that an alt universe version of someone would bear an uncanny resemblance to the original.

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But that's because you're watching a show where you know that happens. If you've only just become aware this alternate universe is a thing and you're seeing someone you had more than passing familiarity with but you know is dead...it seems a perfectly reasonable response to me. You know it's not the same person, just someone that looks exactly the same.

Ash has the body of Voq which underwent massive surgical alteration to become functionally a human body down to the DNA matching the original Ash Tyler. The memories and personality of Ash were then grafted on top of Voq's personality allowing him to be a sleeper agent that was supposed to be awakened at a later time, however due to the unforeseen emotional interference of falling in love with Michael the wake up didn't work properly. This resulted in the two people in Voq's body being in conflict for control of the body. L'Rell then either merged the identities, or somehow made Voq dormant again but with Ash having access to his memories now. If the former then giving Ash a chance to be a human again is reasonable, if the latter then its going to backfire on them.

The entity at this point is functionally a highly traumatised copy of Ash Tyler. It obviously can't be the original, he is presumably dead, but if he is indeed the only remaining personality in the body then it doesn't make sense to treat him as a Klingon infiltrator - although the starting material for the body was Voq's, it has been remade into a human body and is occupied by a human consciousness named Ash Tyler. Just with the memories of the life of a Klingon named Voq as well as his own.

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12 hours ago, karaddin said:

But that's because you're watching a show where you know that happens. If you've only just become aware this alternate universe is a thing and you're seeing someone you had more than passing familiarity with but you know is dead...it seems a perfectly reasonable response to me. You know it's not the same person, just someone that looks exactly the same.

Ash has the body of Voq which underwent massive surgical alteration to become functionally a human body down to the DNA matching the original Ash Tyler. The memories and personality of Ash were then grafted on top of Voq's personality allowing him to be a sleeper agent that was supposed to be awakened at a later time, however due to the unforeseen emotional interference of falling in love with Michael the wake up didn't work properly. This resulted in the two people in Voq's body being in conflict for control of the body. L'Rell then either merged the identities, or somehow made Voq dormant again but with Ash having access to his memories now. If the former then giving Ash a chance to be a human again is reasonable, if the latter then its going to backfire on them.

The entity at this point is functionally a highly traumatised copy of Ash Tyler. It obviously can't be the original, he is presumably dead, but if he is indeed the only remaining personality in the body then it doesn't make sense to treat him as a Klingon infiltrator - although the starting material for the body was Voq's, it has been remade into a human body and is occupied by a human consciousness named Ash Tyler. Just with the memories of the life of a Klingon named Voq as well as his own.

Do we see Sarek remove Voq's katra from Tyler at some point or his he always lurking beneath the surface?

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We saw L'Rell do... Something. It remains to be seen if she was tricking Saru or playing it straight. More than grounds for suspicion though. I think it's a more interesting story if Voq is actually gone now though, so personally that's what I'm hoping for.

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38 minutes ago, karaddin said:

We saw L'Rell do... Something. It remains to be seen if she was tricking Saru or playing it straight. More than grounds for suspicion though. I think it's a more interesting story if Voq is actually gone now though, so personally that's what I'm hoping for.

I don't believe her for a second. I would love for him to be normal-ish Ash Tyler.

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so basically Voq's plan was really shit as he turned himself into a human and his false identity supplanted his own? Way to go Voq - I thought you were shit in the opening episodes but you managed to become even more lame.

No wonder fake Ash won - he's far more likeable than real Voq.

I have no problem with Ash remaining - he's easily the most likeable cast member for me. The others took more screen time for me but Ash was there from the start. I guess he was deliberately "what you see is what you get" because he wasn't that.

 

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I'm quite partial to L'Rell, she manages to do far more emoting through the prosthetics/make up than any of the others do. And I'm curious as to where her arc is going - which ties into whether she just put Voq back into dormancy or if she actually killed him. It's hard to tell if she's just running a long con or if she's genuinely in despair.

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This show has turned into a major disappointment. Lorca was the most interesting character, by a longshot. While it was predicted that he probably came from the MU, having both this and the Ash/Voq thing as well as having Lorca turn into Trump makes for a "jump the shark" moment for me. I won't be watching this series any longer.

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Huh. I wonder if they'll get Quinto for season two? Or just introduce a third Spock actor. Odd that the spore drive is still a thing but I guess they'll deal with that next season and it'll have something to do with the thing that landed on Tilly. 

I really don't get how L'Rell becomes the leader of the Klingons by planting a bomb on their own fucking planet. Wouldn't Klingons hate that kinda cowardly dishonorable action? Also if she's the mother of the modern Klingon empire it's kinda weird women couldn't serve on the council in TNG/DS9.

 

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4 hours ago, RumHam said:

Huh. I wonder if they'll get Quinto for season two? Or just introduce a third Spock actor. Odd that the spore drive is still a thing but I guess they'll deal with that next season and it'll have something to do with the thing that landed on Tilly. 

I really don't get how L'Rell becomes the leader of the Klingons by planting a bomb on their own fucking planet. Wouldn't Klingons hate that kinda cowardly dishonorable action? Also if she's the mother of the modern Klingon empire it's kinda weird women couldn't serve on the council in TNG/DS9.

 

I kind of feel like these Klingons would respect that. Our Klingons would find it dishonorable but these aren't them.  

Bringing in the Enterprise is weird, I almost hope it isn't addressed next season. Or if they do it is just Pike who comes aboard the Discovery. 

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I liked the series overall, and I thought the darker tones worked quite well, as often enough the positive and optimistic aspects of the Federation were still brought to the fore. The visuals were quite strong for the most part, and the acting was solid. Pretty good characters, in general, though the series took a while to get going as the first few episodes focused way too much on Michael, and it made it seem that it had the wrong title. 

I felt that the middle of the season, which included the various episodes dealing with understanding the spore drive, the network, and the first couple of mirror universe were the best in the series. Unfortunately, I felt the ending of the Klingon War was rushed.

That being said, I thought the show did a good job showing the Federation struggling to keep to their ideals in the face of extinction - they showed the cyclical nature of society, as we strive to better ourselves, but often stumble and sometimes go backwards. In this regard this show, just like older shows, managed to make good comparisons to today's society.

I liked their use of Star Trek tech. There were moments when they even outdid the other series on making sure the tech stuff and the plot merged right, and things didn't just happen for plot convenience. I liked that they temporarily put the spore drive aside, giving them room to focus on other tech stuff next season.

I'm glad there is still potential for Michelle Yeoh to appear again, given how things were left off.

That bit at the end with Enterprise was a bit cheeky, but it was unavoidable. I don't see how Pike and the Enterprise, and even Kirk and Spock, can coexist in this universe, and not be brought up, or appear, now and then.

Given the name of the ship, and the series title, I hope next season focuses more on exploration. There is also the potential of showing how this Klingon war leads to the emergence of a stronger and better Federation. 

The biggest issue I have is still with the Klingon look. I still don't understand why they did it, when all other known alien species still look as they did on previous shows. The show has made it clear that there is some kind continuity with the previous Trek shows. (Or are they stubbly hinting at continuity with the new Trek films? These Klingons do look closer to the the Into Darkness Klingons) 

Edited by Corvinus

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26 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

 

The biggest issue I have is still with the Klingon look. I still don't understand why they did it, when all other known alien species still look as they did on previous shows. The show has made it clear that there is some kind continuity with the previous Trek shows. (Or are they stubbly hinting at continuity with the new Trek films? These Klingons do look closer to the the Into Darkness Klingons) 

This was my biggest beef too, I don't think it has anything to do with the new films because CBS doesn't own the rights to the films so that is off the table. But I think they tried their best to capitalize on the success of the films and lure in some new fans so that could be why their appearance is similar.

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3 hours ago, Corvinus said:

(Or are they stubbly hinting at continuity with the new Trek films? These Klingons do look closer to the the Into Darkness Klingons) 

They've always insisted it's in the prime timeline, and if anything the look of the enterprise confirms that. It doesn't look like the Kelvin-timeline Enterprise. 

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I still haven't seen the finale, but I have to say that most of my interest in this show left with the Lorca twist and fallout. It's not like it was a masterpiece before, but it was at least a fun sci-fi show with a couple of interesting characters, with the highlight being the time loop episode. Taking your most interesting character and turning him into a one dimensional villain who dies one episode after the reveal with barely a shrug from any of the characters who've known him was one of the worst ideas I've seen in a show in a long time. I'm also not particularly happy that we're back in the boring Klingon war now, and that all the Voq/Ash stuff has essentially been wiped out, aside from Michael breaking up with him. Hopefully the finale redeems the show a little... As of now I'm not sure I'll be back for season two.

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Well I plan to return for season 2, but that reminds me that I need to cancel the streaming subscription for the time being. :D

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23 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

Well I plan to return for season 2, but that reminds me that I need to cancel the streaming subscription for the time being. :D

Yep! As soon as the finale ends, goodbye CBS Access.

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I think it was a reasonably good season, probably the second-best opening season of a Star Trek show (DS9's first season was probably better, mainly because of Duet and the S1 finale) with some very good actors and twists.

I'm not a fan of the visual effects, which are too heavily stylised, and the look of the Klingons is ropy as fuck. But, speaking as someone who's been a fan of the franchise since seeing Star Trek II at the age of four (which is way too young, but still) thirty-five years ago, the hate for this show has been ridiculous. It's mostly been fine, accounting for the limitations (most notably the decision to make it a prequel, which made it a bit of a lame duck all too often).

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