Catalun independence vote

[Mentat]

38 minutes ago, Tijgy said:

The use of violence by the Spanish is really problematic regarding human rights. This isn't only about prohibiting the referendum but also about using state terror against your citizens. 

And it is solely about the referendum, but also about the other politicians and journalists who are being prosecuted by the Spanish State. I am talking for example now about the leader of the Catalan police who is now being investigated and risks 15 years of prison. This is like one of the most idiotic things you can do. The Spanish government is just creating more and more martyrs. 

EU will always have Rajoy's back, or at least Juncker does. They look always very friendly (x, x, x). (Is that the normal way for Spanish people to meet each other. I really cannot imagine it is something typical of Luxembourg). The fact Juncker is actually President of the European Commission shows there are some very fundamental wrong things with the European Constitutions. The rumor on his supposedly alcohol problems is probably one of the less problematic ones (He denied it of course). Maybe he does deserves some drinks after the Brexit stuff. That had to be difficult for him.  Poor Jean-Claude. And it isn't only the American Donald who is surrounded with scandals and Tajani has links to the Dieselgate. And the three of them have of course links to the European People's Party, the same fraction as the PP.

The problem with EU is it is sometimes too busy with (a certain) member states and with their own project and not with it's citizens. There is a reason why my Prime Minister said directly he condemned the violence, why the Flemish Parliament voted unanimously the violence done by the Spanish. The EU is actually starting to have a crisis. They might still not be winning the elections, but the eurosceptics are gaining terrain. And I think they would only make more people sceptic if there is no clear reaction of the EU condemning the Spanish reactions. Further it completely delegitimizes the EU's superior attitude towards Russia and other parts of the world. Poetin is probably laughing for his television.

 

On your first two paragraphs: Agreed, though I wouldn't use the expression State terror, which is probably inflammatory and hyperbolic at this point in time.

About the problems with the EU: You seem to be more knowledgable about the subject than I am, but despite whatever problems they may have, it's hard to deny their influence. The Catalan government has tried everything they can think of to get them on their side, and while the Catalans may not want to remain Spanish, they very much want to stay members of the EU (which might be problematic). Eurosceptics gaining a hold of the EU is something I very much wish not to happen, but I agree that the increasing polarization of societies (and the EU failing some of its citizens with very neo-liberal politics) seems to lead to an increase in their power.

[The Inquisitor]

5 hours ago, Mentat said:

As Meera points out, Spain over-taxes its rich regions to subsidize its poor regions (and I can agree Catalonia -and other regions like Valencia and Murcia- has been excessively over taxed, though we might argue to what extent)

Mentat, I think it's important to clarify this issue. 

The Spanish State doesn't overtax its rich regions because regions are not subjects that are taxed in Spain. In short, regions do not pay taxes.

The Spanish fiscal system taxes individuals (as opposed to regions) under a progressive fiscal system as is set in the Constitution, pretty much like most social market economies. This means basically that our fiscal system is guided under the principle that whoever generates more income pays more taxes. As it is, individuals in Catalonia, the Basque Country or Navarra are better off that Andalusians or people from the Canaries. That's why Catalonia in agreggate pays a larger volume of taxes than the average, because it is comprised of wealthier citizens than the rest of the nation.

As you know, there are a number of taxes that have been ceded from the Spanish central government to the regions in order to grant them their own source of income and the ability to run regional public finances at a certain extent. Among those taxes that have been ceded, we find the transmission tax, the inheritance tax and etc. I do not have the facts in my head at the moment, but it may well be very likely that Catalans pay more taxes overall than the median Spaniard beacuse the Catalan regional government has decided to keep a plurality of taxes under its purview at a higher rate than other regions.

[Mentat]

3 minutes ago, The Inquisitor said:

Mentat, I think it's important to clarify this issue. 

The Spanish State doesn't overtax its rich regions because regions are not subjects that are taxed in Spain. In short, regions do not pay taxes.

The Spanish fiscal system taxes individuals (as opposed to regions) under a progressive fiscal system as is set in the Constitution, pretty much like most social market economies. This means basically that our fiscal system is guided under the principle that whoever generates more income pays more taxes. As it is, individuals in Catalonia, the Basque Country or Navarra are better off that Andalusians or people from the Canaries. That's why Catalonia in agreggate pays a larger volume of taxes than the average, because it is comprised of wealthier citizens than the rest of the nation.

As you know, there are a number of taxes that have been ceded from the Spanish central government to the regions in order to grant them their own source of income and the ability to run regional public finances at a certain extent. Among those taxes that have been ceded, we find the transmission tax, the inheritance tax and etc. I do not have the facts in my head at the moment, but it may well be very likely that Catalans pay more taxes overall than the median Spaniard beacuse the Catalan regional government has decided to keep a plurality of taxes under its purview at a higher rate than other regions.

You're correct, so please allow me to rephrase.

Most taxes in Spain are state-wide, and are controlled by the State (though regions have certain leeway to introduce some changes or additions, as in the income tax). Despite said leeway, the taxable wealth they can target is very little, and they mostly rely on a percentage of State taxes that is transferred to them by the State after collecting it (there is some amount of devolution here, but this is mostly correct). The amount of money regions get is determined by a State law, which takes into account different variables (amount of taxes collected in the region, population, etc.). Spain subsidizes its poorer regions through the money it collects from its richer regions, and though this principle is generally agreed upon by all, some regions consider that they don't get enough money from the State, both in tax transfers and in State financed infrastructures and stuff like cultural subsidies (both enough as compared to the revenue they produce and enough to properly finance their devolved attributions). Catalonia and Valencia (which is my home region, though for work reasons I'm not currently living there) are two of said regions. My personal opinion, is that both Catalonia and Valencia are indeed under financed (though it can be argued if this is actually true and if so how much they are under financed). I also think that the State has too much control over the money purse considering basic attributions like health service and education are devolved. I find local governments have a much larger control over their own finances and tax revenue than regions have. Finally, it's important to point out, as Meera did, that the Basque country has an extremely privileged financial position compared to other regions (who are understandably jealous), where it can control its own finances, transferring part of their collected taxes to the State rather than the other way round (this control indirectly means that they get to keep a larger cut of their revenue). I don't personally find this privilege fair, and it has lead to many regions demanding the same for themselves.

I agree that taxes in Catalonia are a tad higher than in other regions of Spain, and that this is mainly because of decisions that have been made by a revenue starved Catalan regional government that has been running on a big deficit for quite some time (one can argue that it just used its resources inefficiently or on needless expenditures, but I won't).

I will add that Spain has been trying to draft a new law on this very matter (though it's taking its sweet time) and that Catalonia refused to participate in the multi-regional committee charged with drafting it because it demanded to negotiate with the State on a one-to-one basis (whether this was justified or not is up for debate).     

[baxus]

1 hour ago, The Inquisitor said:

I agree, and while they are at it, the King and Rajoy should walk to the middle of Barcelona's main square, ask forgiveness for centuries of opression, drop their pants, grab their ankles and shove their heads inside their own arses.

Boy, you are absolutely outside the realm of reality, which I gather is a common issue Scottish independentists share with Catalan ones.

Hopefully, majority of Spaniards don't share your view on that apology analogy. If they do, then trouble in Catalonia has only started and it's going to get much worse.

On another note, Scottish referendum went so differently from its Catalan counterpart that any comparison is just plain stupid.

57 minutes ago, The Inquisitor said:

Really, you are entirely out of your mind... Then again, it surprises me not... the claim that the Spanish State is using repression and state-sponsored terror against the poor martyred Catalan secessionists just highlights how much you know about the issue at hand -nothing- and how much your opinion is worth - not much-.

I'm curious, what would you call police beating up citizens for trying to vote?

[Alarich II]

2 hours ago, mormont said:

This is a lot of words to say very little of relevance. In theory, yes, control of borders involves the use of force. In practice, if Catalonia was independent there is no reason to suppose crossing the border would be any different than crossing the border from one Western country to another. A passport check, and that's it.

The issue of Spanish police entering the country to arrest the PM etc. rest on the idea of that declaration of independence not being recognised by Spain, which is a different issue, and one that can and should be resolved by political dialogue.

If it's supposed to be no more than a passport check, why have a border at all? Why is it so important to have that border, if - as you say - it is supposed to have no implications? Do you really believe that if the parliament declares Independence next week, Spain or any other EU country will recognise this? I don't think so, which means that the Catalans will have to decide wether they will use force to assert their declared independence or accept that they are in fact not independent.

 

2 hours ago, mormont said:

But why would every town or village decide separately?

If the question is 'should inhabitants of those towns be allowed to participate in a vote on NI's future', the answer is 'yes, of course'. But the question is not 'should those villages be split up as a result of that vote?' Nobody's proposing to split Catalonia up, just as nobody's saying that Coleraine or Ballymena have distinct identities from the rest of Northern Ireland.

The question at hand was and is 'what counts as a distinct people?' My point is that this is a non-issue, as I'm not aware of any movement for independence that isn't based on a distinct culture existing.

Why then should every region decide separately, what makes a region so special? Why is it okay to break up Spain, but not Catalonia? And would it not be fair to an overwhelming Irish Catholic town on the border to Ireland to let them join the RoI if they want?

You are focusing on the low hanging fruit: yes, by most definitions, Catalans are a people. Nobody is arguing they are not. Certainly not I.

Moving on, the question becomes: should they as a people have their own state carved out of an existing state that already recognises them as a people. Now this is the hard question;

Quote

Your response focuses on another issue entirely, what happens when two distinct peoples occupy the same geographical area. That's not a response, that's a different subject. A difficult one, admittedly, but not the same one.

Unless you are saying that only Catalans live in Catalonia, and only Spaniards in the rest of Spain, you are right. But that's not the case, is it? Being or not being Catalan (or Scottish or Bavarian) is basically a self-declared membership. There are no rules that make you Catalan or not, our liberal democracies know only rules for citizenship, not ethnic/cultural "belonging". Many people from other regions have moved into Catalonia and if we just consider the historical Països Catalans there are Catalans living not only in Catalonia, but also in the French département Pyrénées-Orientales which is part of the region Occitane, in the Italian City of Alghero (in Sardinia), in Andorra and in other Spanish regions (Valencia, Aragon and the Balearic Islands). So I would say that if we regocnize that within the Spanish, Italian and French citizens there are the Catalans and the Spaniards and the French and the Italians (or Sardinians) as different people, we also have to recognize the fact that they do indeed occupy the same geographical area and the same goes for the French and Italians and the Catalans.

 

2 hours ago, mormont said:

The only 'clear-cut' question, for me, is whether it is viable to force a region to remain in a democratic nation-state. I would say that it is not. You can be a democracy or you can force people to remain within your borders. You can't do both.

On this we are going to disagree: first of all, I don't think it's about forcing people to remain anywhere - people can go anywhere, its about which group of people should control a territory. I think you can very well be a democracy and say: these are our borders and every citizen within, not just an ethnic and/or cultural subgroup, can decide wether we will split up or not and along which lines.

[Meera of Tarth]

11 hours ago, Mentat said:

A Catalan independence would be disastrous for Spain. It would throw it into a spiral of political instability where other regions (specifically the Basque country, but possibly also other regions like Galicia) would also demand their own referendums. This would likely make rating agencies, banks and international investors weary of coming anywhere near it until the whole thing had settled. It would also be very bad for the Spanish economy. As Meera points out, Spain over-taxes its rich regions to subsidize its poor regions (and I can agree Catalonia -and other regions like Valencia and Murcia- has been excessively over taxed, though we might argue to what extent). Catalonia is the second wealthiest region in Spain after Madrid. Its secession would be a very powerful blow to the Spanish economy. There's also the question of whether Catalonia would remain in the EU. If it didn't (as the EU currently claims) this would be terrible for Spain, as its main connections with northern Europe all go through Catalonia.

Yes, both economies will be in trouble. The Economist said that Spain should talk with Catalonia and give them something (finances, language, nation), and that the economies will suffer, although they also said that  Catalonia would be viable in economic terms.

Meanwhile the two main banks of Catalonia (even from SPain) have decided to leave Catalonia (one decided it yesterday, the other is deciding it right now), in terms of their headquarters (not necessarily the operations). So the corporate taxes will not be collected In Catalonia (less moneu for Catalonia).

Meanwhile, SPain is deciding to approve a law that will let companies leave Catalonia immediately. (Not a smart move for them , either).

IMF is saying today that this conundrum will be affecting SPain as well.

10 hours ago, Tijgy said:

The Spanish Constitutional Court suspended the Catalonian Parliament

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/05/spanish-pm-mariano-rajoy-warns-of-greater-harm-from-catalonia-independence-plans

Yes, they suspended the Parliament session for Monday. It will happen on Tuesday.

[Meera of Tarth]

6 hours ago, Tijgy said:

Nevertheless it is still weird a Constitutional Court can prohibit a Parliament from having a discussion about something in a session, just like it was weird to punish people for allowing to discuss a possible secession during a parliamentary session.

If you allow this, there is something seriously wrong in your constitution. 

 

LOL. The Constitutional Court can suspend everything in Spain because they want. They don't even respect their own laws as I explained on my essay about the Statute of 2006 that was cut twice and that let this whole thing happen. The GOv of Spain is incapable of negotiating anything since a long time ago.

[Meera of Tarth]

6 hours ago, mormont said:

Yes. Absolutely. In fact I can see no alternative that any sensible person would recommend. And that dialogue should begin with an apology for the mishandling of the situation by the Spanish government and by Rajoy personally.

This is not 'impossible': it's the only way forward.

I completely agree, but unfortunately this won't happen.

[Meera of Tarth]

5 hours ago, Alarich II said:

And coming back to the Catalan independence question: I personally think that it should be possible to reach independence through lawful means, but I won't pretend as you do, that this issue is clear-cut or easy to answer. The arguments against Catalan independence are not unreasonable: Catalans are not oppressed, they can freely express their cultural identity, their language and customs. They were a part of Spain for a good thousand years, i.e. we are not talking about an artificial product of 19th century realpolitik. So

Bolded is not true.

[Relic]

4 hours ago, The Inquisitor said:

I agree, and while they are at it, the King and Rajoy should walk to the middle of Barcelona's main square, ask forgiveness for centuries of opression, drop their pants, grab their ankles and shove their heads inside their own arses.

Boy, you are absolutely outside the realm of reality, which I gather is a common issue Scottish independentists share with Catalan ones.

You are aware that your hard-line nationalistic stance is probably going to lead to blood, right? I am curious what you propose be the next steps here should be. Since you are so hell bent on being the only person here who perceives reality please reply only with realistic solutions that somehow appease both sides. Thank you. 

[Meera of Tarth]

5 hours ago, Tijgy said:

I think it cannot be longer denied the Spanish government several human rights, like the right to exercise of opinion, ...

 

Exactly, it was one of the conclusions of the International Observers.

[HexMachina]

Probably the closest to an apology for the brutality on Sunday that will be seen: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/06/catalan-government-press-ahead-referendum-debate 

Hardly seems adequate from my perspective 

 

[Fez]

21 hours ago, baxus said:

Kosovo?

Gotcha. I think Kosovo 2008-present is a very different case though, because the war and everything that had happened in the '80s and '90s is still in very recent living memory. The people of Kosovo can very convincingly say that Serbia broke whatever social contract there was long ago and that independence was a valid step to ensure the protection of their civil rights.

21 hours ago, baxus said:

I didn't even think of Crimea but yeah, that's another fine example of part of country's territory being usurped with the help of "third party" army.

I don't see Crimea as being remotely similar though; it's not like France has invaded Catalonia and made it the 97th non-overseas Department. If it did, France would be just as unjustified as Russia was with Crimea.

5 hours ago, Hereward said:

Trial by jury is not by any means universal in the West.

Fair. I was using it as short-hand when I shouldn't have. What I meant was that there are certain rights of accused that are generally accepted throughout the West (e.g. no use of military courts for civilians, no use of torture, ability to mount a defense, etc.).

[SirArthur]

14 minutes ago, Fez said:

I don't see Crimea as being remotely similar though; it's not like France has invaded Catalonia and made it the 97th non-overseas Department. If it did, France would be just as unjustified as Russia was with Crimea.

Not sure what you want to say. Should France cede north Catalonia ? Is this going full ham now ?

[baxus]

1 hour ago, Fez said:

Gotcha. I think Kosovo 2008-present is a very different case though, because the war and everything that had happened in the '80s and '90s is still in very recent living memory. The people of Kosovo can very convincingly say that Serbia broke whatever social contract there was long ago and that independence was a valid step to ensure the protection of their civil rights.

Now, that's a pretty one-sided take on a rather complicated situation.

I must remember to ask my wife and her family who had to flee Kosovo back in '99 to avoid being killed by Albanians how and why they "broke social contract".

[Loge]

14 hours ago, baxus said:

Now, that's a pretty one-sided take on a rather complicated situation.

I must remember to ask my wife and her family who had to flee Kosovo back in '99 to avoid being killed by Albanians how and why they "broke social contract".

The narrative in the Western media at the time was that there was a genocide or at least ethnic cleansing going on (the Serbs being the perpetrators). There doesn't seem to be evidence for that, though. The West just fell for the Kosovo Liberation Army's propaganda. Iraq wasn't the first time the West waged war in blatant breach of international law over a lie.

[DireWolfSpirit]

20 hours ago, baxus said:

I'm curious, what would you call police beating up citizens for trying to vote?

I'm also curious what The Inquisitor would call this?

[Rippounet]

Anti-independence movements are organizing a demonstration in Barcelona on sunday.

It will be interesting to see how many people show up.

[The Inquisitor]

1 hour ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

I'm also curious what The Inquisitor would call this?

I will tell you what I call this. It's the normal use of the instruments of the State to uphold the rule of law in a proportionate manner. Because make no mistake, the police did not beat people in Catalonia at voting stations because they were voting as is what the secessionists claim and moan about. The police used force when the demonstrators/voters refused to comply with a ruling of the High Court of Catalonia which declared the referendum illegal and ordered the voting stations to be cleared and when the demonstrators/voters began to be an obstacle for legality to be upheld. What is despicable is that there wer cases of independentists using children and old people as human shields.

What led to this situation was the fact that the Catalan regional police under the control lf the Catalan regional government, in their role as judiciary police of first choice in Catalonia (that is, the police body that carries out the courts' resolutions) ignored the ruling the High Court of Catalonia. This led to the Spanish National Police and Civil Guard to carry out the bidding of the High Court of Catalonia. This is seditious in itself, since an institution of the Spanish sate (the Catalan regional government, which in fact is the highest representative of the Spanish State in Catalonia) deliberately ignored a ruling of a power of the sate (the High Court of Catalonia). This situation is being studied as we speak by the  Spanish Attorney General's office and may lead, if there's evidence for it, high ranking officers of the Catalan government and the Catalan regional police to be tried for a crime of sedition and disobedience.

Ladies and gents, make no mistake, this is what is happening in Catalonia right now. A situation in which one power of the Spanish State is outside of the rule of law, in a clear attempt to shatter the legality and the set of laws that serve as a frame to the Spanish society. In short a coup d'etat. I suspect you will understand that the first duty of any government and any consitutional power in a liberal and western democracy is to uphold the rule of law. For Spaniards, including Catalans, are free in short to disagree with the law, but not to disobey it.

It's a similar situation to what happened with the police action and the charges at the G20 summit in Hamburg, and yet I don't hear many of you bleating about how it was an act of repression by the naughty naughty government of Germany.

Now, is you ask me if it was pretty? No it wasn't. Did I like it? No I didn't. Did I support? No, I did not. Did I enjoy it? No, of course not. Was it necessary? Probably not. Was it a sign of brutality and repression as the "victims" and their political leaders claim? Most assuredly not. It was a proportionate use of force by a power of the state.

[The Inquisitor]

20 hours ago, Relic said:

You are aware that your hard-line nationalistic stance is probably going to lead to blood, right? I am curious what you propose be the next steps here should be. Since you are so hell bent on being the only person here who perceives reality please reply only with realistic solutions that somehow appease both sides. Thank you

You see Relic, I think I've already expressed my opinion on what the next steps should be. 

Making an effort to ignore your snide remarks and use of adjectives, I'll gladly explain to you in case you are truly interested what I think the next steps should be.

In a situation in which the rule of law has been breached and is beign breached as we speak off by the highest representative of the Spanish State in Catalonia, the Catalan regional Government, the powers of the State should uphold the rule of law by all means, making use of all the instruments and means that the Constitution and our set of laws grant our society.

Under the threat of a coup by the Catalan regional government and the threat of an unilateral proclamation of independence, the remaining powers of the State should not flinch and reply point by point, with the law and for the law.

As someone else said way better than me, and paraphrasing borrowed words, Spaniards, among them Catalanas, are free, in short, to disagree with the law but not to disobey it. For in a government of laws and not of men, no man, however prominent or powerful, and no mob, however unruly or boisterous, is entitled to defy a court of law. If this country should ever reach the point where any man or group of men by force or threat of force could long defy the commands of our court and our Constitution, then no law would stand free from doubt, no judge would be sure of his writ, and no citizen would be safe from his neighbors

Once, and only once constitutional order and normalcy have been reattained, a political discussion and dialogue should be had in order to see how we can move forward from this horrible situation that has led to the fracture of the Catalan society by, mind, a disloyal regional government that has decided to place itself outside of the law. This solution, political in nature and born of dialogue and common loyalty between parts should be found within the law and using the tools that the law gives us as a society. This may take years and even generations, but no power can place itself outside the Constitution and the law to press for a political agenda. This only leads to injustice, frustration and the tension that we are living as a nation in Spain these ill fated days. This political solution, whatever it might be (and frankly I have no idea what it can be except it has to be born out of consensus), can't take place right now when our society, the Catalan society mos essentially, is torn in half and tensions are ripe.

You are welcome.