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Val's monster

A question about Varys.

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I know that during this penultimate season Varys has been very much a bystander in the events going on, I believe this is due to the show needing to show all of the other storylines as a more vital part of the GOT experience.

There has been the confirmation about Jon's parentage via both Bran and Samwell. In Bran's flashback to the Tower of Joy there were 3 Kings guards (out of 7) and several ladies in waiting helping Lyanna give birth. The ladies in waiting haven't to my knowledge been named except maybe in theories, however i would feel safe to assume that they would either been at Aerys court or servants of the royal court in king's Landing. Rheagar wouldn't have left his new wife, to have her first child, with people he didn't trust in the middle of a rebellion. Pregnancies take time, so even if R+L only ever stayed at the ToJ it would be unlikely that either all of the KG or the ladies in waiting would have been there for the 40 or so weeks of the pregnancy. 

We know that Rheagar left Lyanna and the ToJ to go and fight the rebellion and to go on to die at the Ruby ford, it would be reasonable for him to have passed through King's Landing, firstly to receive orders from his father ( who was still king, even if he was mad). It would be at this point that I would speculate that Rheagar would have sent his good friend Arthur Dayne to protect his new wife and unborn child he may have also sent the ladies in waiting. 

So onto Varys, we know that he acted as Aerys' Master of secrets, In other words a spymaster. He was a very effective spymaster at this time, according to both the books and the TV show, so much so that when he pledged loyalty to Robert he was kept on in the same position. we saw from season 1 and Book 1 that he was skilled in disguising himself (think Ned in the black cells). We know from Tyrions escape in both books and show that there was a network of tunnel and listening positions within the whole of the Red Keep, which included the Tower of the Hand, and would likely include the KG tower as well. We also know that he (and not Qyburn) developed the network of children that acted as his informants. In fact it is fair to say Varys' whole purpose of being was to collect information.

I know in the books that he has another Targ in the game and hasn't met Danerys, But in the Show, Why doesn't he seem to know or realise about the R+L=J and his Queen being blood relations or is it just a convienience for the producers to let Bran/Sam do the big reveal.?

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11 hours ago, Val's monster said:

I know that during this penultimate season Varys has been very much a bystander in the events going on, I believe this is due to the show needing to show all of the other storylines as a more vital part of the GOT experience.

There has been the confirmation about Jon's parentage via both Bran and Samwell. In Bran's flashback to the Tower of Joy there were 3 Kings guards (out of 7) and several ladies in waiting helping Lyanna give birth. The ladies in waiting haven't to my knowledge been named except maybe in theories, however i would feel safe to assume that they would either been at Aerys court or servants of the royal court in king's Landing. Rheagar wouldn't have left his new wife, to have her first child, with people he didn't trust in the middle of a rebellion. Pregnancies take time, so even if R+L only ever stayed at the ToJ it would be unlikely that either all of the KG or the ladies in waiting would have been there for the 40 or so weeks of the pregnancy. 

We know that Rheagar left Lyanna and the ToJ to go and fight the rebellion and to go on to die at the Ruby ford, it would be reasonable for him to have passed through King's Landing, firstly to receive orders from his father ( who was still king, even if he was mad). It would be at this point that I would speculate that Rheagar would have sent his good friend Arthur Dayne to protect his new wife and unborn child he may have also sent the ladies in waiting. 

So onto Varys, we know that he acted as Aerys' Master of secrets, In other words a spymaster. He was a very effective spymaster at this time, according to both the books and the TV show, so much so that when he pledged loyalty to Robert he was kept on in the same position. we saw from season 1 and Book 1 that he was skilled in disguising himself (think Ned in the black cells). We know from Tyrions escape in both books and show that there was a network of tunnel and listening positions within the whole of the Red Keep, which included the Tower of the Hand, and would likely include the KG tower as well. We also know that he (and not Qyburn) developed the network of children that acted as his informants. In fact it is fair to say Varys' whole purpose of being was to collect information.

I know in the books that he has another Targ in the game and hasn't met Danerys, But in the Show, Why doesn't he seem to know or realise about the R+L=J and his Queen being blood relations or is it just a convienience for the producers to let Bran/Sam do the big reveal.?

Even in our world, there is a limit to what spy agencies know. 

Being a good spy master doesn’t mean you are omnicient. So you don’t need your spy master to know everything. 

My guess is he does not know and the reason he does not know is because the writers didn’t want him to know. Is that realistic? Not sure. They don’t give much evidence so hard to tell one way or another whether he should know. 

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12 hours ago, Val's monster said:

We know that Rheagar left Lyanna and the ToJ to go and fight the rebellion and to go on to die at the Ruby ford, it would be reasonable for him to have passed through King's Landing, firstly to receive orders from his father ( who was still king, even if he was mad). It would be at this point that I would speculate that Rheagar would have sent his good friend Arthur Dayne to protect his new wife and unborn child he may have also sent the ladies in waiting. 

And what about before that? Was Lyanna cooking, cleaning, washing clothes, dressing herself, etc, all by herself? Of course no. She had maids appointed to her from the moment she came to Dorne. Same maids remained with her from then on.

And those 3 Kingsguards were informed by Rhaegar about Lyanna, in secret. So there's no way that Varys could have known about Jon's parentage.

In scene of Lyanna's death, there were two maids with her. I think that one of them became Jon's nanny. When Ned returned home to Winterfell, he took her with them. Jon was a newborn baby; royal women rarely fed their children, they used wet nurses, so even before Lyanna died, there was a wet nurse in Tower of Joy; so it's logical that Ned took that wet nurse together with Jon to Winterfell.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Jon_Snow

"When Eddard returned from the war, he brought the newborn Jon to Winterfell, insisting on raising him with the rest of his family. Jon and his wet nurse had been installed in the castle before the arrival of Eddard's new wife, Catelyn Tully, and his young son and heir, Robb Stark, from Riverrun, which Catelyn did not take well."

Maybe the other one Howland Reed took home with him, and later married with her? Maybe his wife Jyana, mother of Meera and Jojen, is that other maid? And maybe that's why Howland Reed never told his children about his participation in rebellion. Because they think that their mother is one of crannogmen, but actually she's from Dorne.

https://s4.scoopwhoop.com/anj/got/298086999.png - both maids

https://pixel.nymag.com/imgs/daily/vulture/2016/06/27/27-game-of-thrones-toj.w1200.h630.jpg - face of first one, maybe this is Howland Reed's wife.

another picture of her - https://s4.scoopwhoop.com/anj/got/730791893.png

https://s4.scoopwhoop.com/anj/got/461063611.png

That actress isn't credited anywhere. Maybe the reason for that, is that in season 8 she will appear again, alongside with Meera and Howland, so to prevent viewers from guessing beforehand who she is, show makers didn't credited her?

Would be funny if I'm right, and my theory will be confirmed in Season 8 ^_^

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11 hours ago, jcmontea said:

Even in our world, there is a limit to what spy agencies know. 

Being a good spy master doesn’t mean you are omnicient. So you don’t need your spy master to know everything. 

My guess is he does not know and the reason he does not know is because the writers didn’t want him to know. Is that realistic? Not sure. They don’t give much evidence so hard to tell one way or another whether he should know. 

I agree that Varys may not know everything- but an incident that has set off a rebellion? Varys has always had the reputation as being an excellent "Master of Whispers" ( I had misquoted his title in the earlier post) I cannot believe he would not investigate this most important incident.  It is more realistic to think the shows writers are building the Bran and Sam story. in The books Varys, supposedly has his own horse.

 

9 hours ago, Megorova said:

And what about before that? Was Lyanna cooking, cleaning, washing clothes, dressing herself, etc, all by herself? Of course no. She had maids appointed to her from the moment she came to Dorne. Same maids remained with her from then on.

 

While you may be correct, There is no way of knowing where they came from KL or Dorne, If they were from KL and had any rank whatsoever it could have piqued Varys' interest.

 

9 hours ago, Megorova said:

And those 3 Kingsguards were informed by Rhaegar about Lyanna, in secret. So there's no way that Varys could have known about Jon's parentage

Varys as "Master of Whispers" whole Job was to find out these "secrets". Granted Rheagar may have told them to go while preparing for the battle at the Ruby Ford, It may have been in KL also. we know from the books that some of the KG did go to The Ruby Ford, Barristan surrendered to Robert there. I still believe that this was too strong a Matter of State for Varys not to know about it. Also in the show the High Septon had wrote about the wedding in his personal journal, Varys has always said Documents such as this were the basis of his early career in Pentos.

         I really don't think we will see Howland Reed in the show, he may appear in the books.

Edited by Val's monster

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15 hours ago, Val's monster said:

While you may be correct, There is no way of knowing where they came from KL or Dorne, If they were from KL and had any rank whatsoever it could have piqued Varys' interest.

It's unlikely that they were from KL. I think so because of this three reasons (text in bold):

"The next year, Lyanna came face to face with Rhaegar ten leagues from Harrenhal, and was taken by him with the help of Ser Arthur Dayne and Ser Oswell Whent. When her brother Brandon, on his way to Riverrun for his wedding, learned about Lyanna's disappearance, he changed course towards King's Landing,"

- Rhaegar brought with him two of his knights, to 'kidnap' Lyanna. Though it's obvious that she went with him willingly. Maybe the whole escape was even planned by both of them beforehand. Because if Lyanna haven't escaped there and then, then after Brandon's wedding with Cat, Lyanna was supposed to marry with Robert. And she didn't wanted to do that.

"Eddard brought Robert's suit to Winterfell, and Rickard agreed to betroth his daughter to the young Lord of Storm's End. However, that night Lyanna confided to Eddard that she believed Robert would never be able to keep to one bed. She had heard that Robert had an illegitimate daughter in the Vale, which Eddard could not deny. He attempted to persuade her that what Robert had done before their betrothal was insignificant and that he would love her, but Lyanna informed him that love could not change a man's nature."

"Lyanna was strong of will. While Robert Baratheon, who had been deeply infatuated with Lyanna and remains very much in love with her memory over fifteen years after her death to the point of causing major strain in his marriage to Cersei Lannister, believes Lyanna would never have publicly opposed him the way Cersei does. However, according to Eddard, Robert never really knew Lyanna. He says that Robert saw only Lyanna's beauty, and never "the iron underneath"."

1. The lesser people knew about planned escape, the higher were chances of escaping. So it's unlikely that Rhaegar brought with him not only Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent, but also two maids from KL to bring them all the way to Tower of Joy in Dorne, 1,600+ miles from Harrenhal, where Lyanna was kidnapped.

Lyanna and Rhaegar went to Dorne together. Lyanna was a good rider, she was capable to manage that journey, unlike average castle maids.

"According to Eddard Lyanna had a touch of wildness to her, which was described as "the wolf blood" by her father, Rickard Stark. Eddard compares her to his tomboyish daughter Arya in personality, adding that Lyanna probably would have carried a sword if their father had allowed it." "maester Yandel describes her as "a wild and boyish young thing with none of the Princess Elia's delicate beauty" "Lyanna is noted to have been a skilled rider who loved to ride. According to Harwin of Winterfell, Lyanna rode "like a northman", while Barbrey Dustin describes her as a centaur, and Roose Bolton states that Lyanna was "half a horse herself"." <-^_^

2. Maids would only hinder them, on their way to Dorne.

Rhaegar annuled his marriage with Elia, but she kept this secret and didn't betrayed him. Which also means that if Elia was loyal to Rhaegar, then in Dorne there were people also loyal to him. 3. So if he had an option to make local maids serve to Lyanna, then there was no reason to bring maids all the way from KL.

15 hours ago, Val's monster said:

I really don't think we will see Howland Reed in the show, he may appear in the books.

It's geographically impossible not to bring Howland Reed in the next season of GOT. He's Lord of Greywater Watch, so either Jaime will meet with him on his way from Riverrun to Winterfell, or if Undead Army will break defences of Winterfell, and go further south, the only way there is to pass Greywater Watch. Also White Harbor, where Jon was going in the end of S7, isn't very far from Greywater Watch. So if Howland will hear that Jon is nearby, furthermore he's with Daenerys Targaryen, he may go to him, to tell him about who his mother was (even before Jon will come home to Winterfell, and met with Bran and Sam).

We will definitely see Howland Reed in the show. Aside from geographical reason, currently Howland Reed is the only person still alive who knew Lyanna, and knew her very well. So he will definitely meet with Jon, and they will talk about Lyanna. 

"Lyanna was present at the tourney at Harrenhal in 281 AC. She happened upon Howland Reed, who was being bullied by three young squires, none older than fifteen. She roared "That's my father's man you're kicking" and attacked them with a tourney sword. The bullies scattered and Lyanna took Howland back to her tent, where she cleaned his wounds and bound them with linen. Then she introduced him to her brothers Brandon, Eddard, and Benjen. That evening, a feast was held to celebrate the start of the tourney. Lyanna persuaded Howland to attend the feast, as he was highborn and had as much right to attend as anyone. During the feast Prince Rhaegar Targaryen, a noted musician, performed a sad and beautiful song that made Lyanna weep. However, when Benjen teased her for crying, she poured wine over his head. During the feast, Lyanna recognized the three squires who had bullied Howland and pointed them out to her brothers. A mystery knight known as the Knight of the Laughing Tree defeated the knights the three bullies served, and demanded them to be chastised as ransom payment. Some fans have suggested Lyanna for the identity of the mystery knight.

Prince Rhaegar won the tournament, but instead of crowning his own wife, Princess Elia Martell, as the queen of love and beauty, Rhaegar shocked those present by presenting the laurel of blue winter roses to Lyanna, placing it in her lap with the tip of his lance."

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Knight_of_the_Laughing_Tree

I'm sure that that knight was Lyanna.

"Most of what is known about the Knight of the Laughing Tree comes from a story told by Meera Reed to Bran Stark. As an introduction to her story, Meera suggests that this knight "might have been a crannogman", to which Jojen Reed adds "or not". " <- maybe Howland himself told to his son, that it wasn't him who defeated those bullies.

"The crannogman found himself bullied by three squires, none older than fifteen-years-old. He had already "grown to manhood", but the boys were all larger than him in size. His only offensive weapon, a three-pronged spear, was easily snatched away by his opponents. He was then thrown into the ground. His assailants repeatedly mocked him, shoved him, and kicked him. Help arrived in the person of Lyanna Stark ("the she-wolf"), who shouted indignantly that Howland was her father's bannerman. She beat off his attackers with a tourney sword, scattering them away."

"Still during the feast, both the crannogman and Lyanna recognized the three bullying squires. One served a pitchfork knight (House Haigh), one served a porcupine (House Blount), and the last boy served a knight of two towers (House Frey). She pointed them out to her brothers. Benjen offered to find the crannogman a horse and armor in order to avenge himself. He failed to reply, torn with indecision. His pride demanded vengeance, but he was afraid of losing and making a fool of himself, bringing shame to his people in the process. He was no knight and was not used to horses and lances."

"During the first two days of the tournament, the porcupine knight, pitchfork knight, and the knight of the two towers each won a place among the champions, all in jousting. Late on the afternoon of the second day, a mystery knight "short of stature" appeared in the lists.

The mystery knight challenged and defeated all three of the previously mentioned knights, winning custody over their horses and armor. 

When the defeated trio sought to ransom back their former property, the knight declared his terms, that they ought to teach their rude squires honor. His voice sounded "booming" through his helm. The trio proceeded to chastise their squires sharply."

"The mystery knight attracted unwanted attention. Robert Baratheon and Richard Lonmouth were determined to unmask him, while King Aerys was certain that the man was his enemy. The king was convinced that the tree on the mystery knight's shield was laughing at him."

"Aerys told his beliefs to every man who would listen, and furiously commanded his own knights to defeat the Knight of the Laughing Tree when the jousts resumed the next morning, to unmask and expose him.

However, by the next day, it was discovered that the knight had disappeared. The king became angered by this, certain that someone close to him had given warning to "this traitor who will not show his face." An angry Aerys sent his men, including Prince Rhaegar, to search for the vanished knight, but only his shield could be found, abandoned in a tree."

Tournament laster ten days. Rhaegar Targaryen was champion of the joust, defeating four knights of the Kingsguard, and in the end he chose Lyanna Stark as the new queen of love and beauty, placing a crown of blue winter roses in her lap. Mystery knight appeard in the late afternoon of the second day, and disappeared on third day. 

Rhaegar discovered identity of that knight, he knew that it was Lyanna. And that's the reason why he fell in love with her, not only for her beauty, but also for her courage and bravery, and for her care towards other people. Lyanna defended Howland Reed, and for this reason Rhaegar was so charmed by her. And that's also the reason why Howland is keeping Jon's parentage as a secret, not only because Ned asked him, but also because he was honoring Lyanna.

Meera's previous participation in Bran's walk beyond The Wall was totally useless. It was Jojen who brought him to 3ER, it was Hodor and Children who let him escape from Night's King, it was uncle Benjen who saved him from wights <- why wasn't Meera killed then? If Meera died in the cave, and instead Bran's direwolf survived, Summer could have brought Bran on that sledge, to uncle Benjen. Uncle Benjen could have brought Bran close to The Wall, and called Brothers to take him, and bring him to Winterfell.

So the only reason why Meera is still alive, even though so far she didn't contributed anything to the development of the story, is because her 'mission' is still ahead. And what could it be? Obvious that her purpose in GOT is to connect Howland Reed and Jon Snow.

Summary why will we see Howland Reed in the upcoming season of GOT: 1. geographical location of his castle, 2. his past with Lyanna, 3. Meera's purpose on the show. 

So we will definitely see Howland in upcoming season. Maybe he won't have lots of screen time, but he will definitely tell Jon that he knew his mother, and Jon will ask him - "Tell me about her".

Edited by Megorova

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On 2/10/2017 at 9:19 PM, Val's monster said:

There has been the confirmation about Jon's parentage via both Bran and Samwell. In Bran's flashback to the Tower of Joy there were 3 Kings guards (out of 7) and several ladies in waiting helping Lyanna give birth.

In the show, there are only two KG at the Tower of joy, and the only name we are given is Arthur Dayne,  unlike the books, where we know from Ned's  fever dream that there were 3, and all their names.
In addition, all the other information we have is from the World of Ice and Fire, for example, as @Megorova points out, 2 of those King Guards presumably were with Rhaegar all the time since he eloped with Lyanna (or kidnapped her). The third one, the Commander of the KG Ser Herold Hightower, was sent later by King Aerys to bring Rhaegar back to Kingslanding, but notably  he didn't come back with him, but remained in the Tower of Joy guarding Lyanna as the other 2 KG.
What I'm trying to say is that the show gives very little information; but as Megorova says, there is no reason to believe that those maid servants we see in the ToJ were from Kings Landing, they were most likely dornish women, posibly faithful and trustworthy servants to House Dayne.
On the other side, although Varis knowledge or ignorance of the events can not be concluded  from who the servants were, the show certainly DO give the most important piece of information that can not be dismissed so easily: that Rhaegar had his marriage with Ellia annuled by the High Septon. This alone, is huge, the annulment of a royal marriage by the "pope" has great political implications, and it is difficult to think that the "chief of spies" could  be unaware of it. 
In addition, we know that after Rhaegar and Lyanna eloped they "dissapeared", but later when Aerys sent Gerold Hightower to bring Rhaegar back, he has no problems to find him; so obviously somebody told him where he was. Who other in Kings Landing could have known, if not Varys? I mean, if other people knew but he didn't, he would have been  certainly a very incompetent spy. 
So, I think that Varys must have  had an idea of where Rhaegar was, and also  most likely that he had married Lyanna. But not necesarily he knew about Jon, 

Edited by LucyMormont

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12 hours ago, LucyMormont said:

there is no reason to believe that those maid servants we see in the ToJ were from Kings Landing, they were most likely dornish women, posibly faithful and trustworthy servants to House Dayne.

I think that the other maid (not the one who became Jon's wet nurse), was Ashara Dayne. And she married with Howland Reed.

This is how I got this idea:

From the show we know that there were two maids with Lyanna. The only people who knew about what happened in TofJ is Ned and Howland.

Though I don't think that young Ned is the kind of person, who can kill two innocent women, just because they were there, and knew Jon's secret. Furthermore those two women were with Lyanna during her pregnancy, and were helping her, and taking care of her. It wouldn't be right to kill them as a payment for their caring.

Furthermore Ned had a newborn baby on his hands, he couldn't have just take him, and ride with him nearly 3000 miles home to Winterfell.

And Jon's wet nurse, that Ned brought with Jon to Winterfell, didn't appeared out of thin air.

Also when Lyanna became pregnant, it's definite that someone assigned to her a wet nurse/caretaker/midwife, to help her thru labor, and later to help her to take care of the baby.

People of 7K speculated that Jon's mother was Ashara Dayne, or one of her maids, or ladyes-in-waiting. They though so, because according to what general public knew, after TofJ Ned went to Starfall, family castle of Daynes.

In the end of rebellion, immidiately after Rhaegar's death, Ned ditched Robert and went to Dorne to retrive Lyanna. And when he returned from there, he brought back Lyanna's body, newborn baby, that Ned claimed was his bastard, and wet nurse of that baby. Wich made people think that that baby was conceived by Ned while he was in Dorne.

Ned had to somehow create an aliby for him, an explanation where the baby came from. So he told everyone, that after he defeated Arthur Dayne, he went to his castle Starfall, to inform his family about his death, and to give his sword Dawn to his sister Ashara.

I noticed that sword in scene of Lyanna's death, so I researched more info about it.

The Dawn sword was made from meteorite, the same as sword of Azor Ahai. So apparently this sword is the ultimate weapon, with which Jon will defeat Night's King.

Where that sword is now, and how Jon can get to it?

According to common knowledge, Ned went to Starfall and gave that sword to Ashara. But Ashara commited suicide jumping into the sea from tower of Starfall. Her body was never found <- this small detail (combined with other info known about her) made me think that actually Ashara isn't dead. Current whereabouts of the sword are unknown (<- this part is my assumption), Arthur Dayne was last known Sword of the Morning. But is it possible that in the next 15+ years after his death, nobody else haven't tried to claim that sword, that in Dayne's family there was no more skilled swordfighters, that wanted to take that sword? <- that is just unbelievable. So what could be the reason, why nobody else didn't became Sword of the Morning? I think that's because whereabouts of the Dawn are unknown. Supposedly Ned gave the sword to Ashara, and then Ashara killed herself, thus her family may not know, what has she done with that sword. But Dayne family doesn't reveal to general public, that they lost their ancestral sword, or more like they don't know where Ashara took that sword prior her death. It just wouldn't be right, if they will start to bitch and moan, that they don't know where their sword is, while they couldn't even find body of their lady Ashara :unsure:. They may think that maybe Ashara put that sword somewhere before she died, or maybe she took that sword with her, when she jumped from the tower into the sea. Either way they keep this story under wraps. They themselves don't know whether they have that sword (it's hiden somewhere in Starfall), or they don't have it (it drowned with Ashara).

What is known about Ashara? She's sister of Artur Dayne; she was lady-in-waiting of Elia Martell; Ned liked her, he and Howland met her during Tournament at Harrenhall, where Rhaegar crowned Lyanna as queen of love an beauty; she's Dornish. According to common knowledge she commited suicide because of 1. her brother's death. She and Ned were lovers, and she couldn't accept that her lover killed her brother. 2. because she was pregnant, and she had a miscarriage. 3. she was Jon's mother, and she killed herself because Ned stole her baby.

Rhaegar brought Lyanna to Tower of Joy. There with her were two maids. I assume that one of them was midwife/wet nurse, that Ned brought with Jon to Winterfell. And she wasn't from Starfall. Because it's unlikely that after Lyanna's death, Ned went to Starfall to give Dawn to Arthur's family, and it just happened that they had a wet nurse in their castle. It's a lie that Ashara was pregnant. Those rumors were created by Ned himself, to deceive people about Jon's origin. So there were no wet nurses in Starfall, and there couldn't be. Wet nurses don't just grow on a trees. And Ned couldn't have just found one in a middle of a dornish desert. It's obvious that Rhaegar brought that wet nurse to TofJ beforehand, to help Lyanna with her baby.

First maid, that gave the baby to Ned, was Jon's wet nurse. So who was the other one? The one whom Ned asked whether there's a maester there. I think it was Ashara Dayne. Because her brother was with Lyanna for nearly 9 months. Arthur Dayne was Rhaegar's best friend. He was with Lyanna, from the moment she was kidnapped, until he was killed by Howland Reed. And Ashara was lady-in-waiting of Rhaegar's first wife, and sister of his best friend, and she lived in Dorne (Starfall is closer to Tower of Joy than Sunspear, or King's Landing. So it would be logical to take someone from there to tend to Lyanna.). So if Rhaegar wanted a trustworthy person near Lyanna, during her pregnancy, who could be a better candidate than Ashara?

If Ashara already knew about death of her brother, and his sword was with her in TofJ, then there was no need for Ned to go to Starfall. We know that Ned already had a baby immediately after Arthur's death, that he didn't take that baby from Starfall. So how could have he left the baby in TofJ, and go to Starfall? So he didn't went there. He's the one who spread rumors about Ashara's death. She didn't wanted to go back to Starfall, after death of her brother. Or Ned was afraid of letting her go, because she knew Jon's secret. Either way she stayed with Howland Reed. We know that after those events Tower of Joy was torn down, and from its stones were build cairns (tombstones) for 8 people that died there (3 KG and 5 of Ned's friends). Howland Reed was wounded, so he stayed behind. Ashara stayed there with him, took care of him, and the two of them burried her brother. It was before that, that Ned, Howland and Ashara decided that Ned will be telling everyone that after TofJ he went to Starfall, brought Arthur's sword there, informed Ashara about her brother's death, and in aftermath of it, Ashara commited suicide by jumping into the sea (her body was never found, because there was no body). Ashara went with Howland to his castle Greywater Watch. And eventually they got married. Even though he killed her brother. She forgave him, because he regretted doing it. He had no choice, he had to protect Ned, he had to save Lyanna. They didn't knew Arthur was protecting Lyanna and her baby, and not keeping her as hostage. Howland had a history with Lyanna, that's why for her sake he backstabbed Arthur, even though it was dishonorably. Probably Ashara also cared about Lyanna, and liked her very much, after they spent together lots of time, during Lyanna's pregnancy. After she went with Howland, she changed her name to Jyana. She chosen that name to honor Lyanna.

And Dawn sword is either was taken by Howland Reed, or by Ned. I think that if Jyana is Ashara, then she wanted Jon to have that sword. Because last Sword of the Morning died while protecting his Prince. Most likely Ned burried that sword in Lyanna's crypt.

P.S. I'm not the first person who realised that Jyana may be Ashara.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/102968-jyana-reed/

I haven't read theories like this anywhere else, before I myself came up with it, so if different people for different reasons, from different angles made the same conclusion, maybe it is correct.

Though they assumed that Jyana = Jon + Lyanna, that's how her name was made. But I think that it probably was Howland, who gave names to both of them - he renaimed Ashara into Jyana, to honor Lyanna, and he gave name Jon to baby Aegon, both names are in crannogmen style. Thus Howland Reed is sort of a godfather of Jon. If he named him, that's another reason why they should meet in Season 8.

 

Back to Varys.

Three Kingsguards that knew Jon's secret died. Lyanna and Rhaegar also died. Howland and Ned would've NEVER gave this secret away. If one other person present there during Jon's birth, became Howland's wife (it could be that she was Ashara Dayne, or she was just some dornish maid), it's also impossible that she was Varys' informant. And I think that the other one, that was Jon's wet nurse, also died. During that winter when little Jon was very sick, and nearly died. Maybe both of them got sick, and after his wet nurse died, Cat took over and cared after Jon.

So none from TofJ couldn't have been Varys' source.

And about High Septon, we don't know when exactly did he wrote that entry in his diary. Maybe it was many many years after actual event. Maybe when he was already old and dying in Citadel. Maybe he wrote it as part of his memoires. And while he was serving as High Septon, he didn't wrote it in his diary, he did it much later, when he was already long time out of KL and Varys' intel network.

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16 hours ago, LucyMormont said:

In addition, we know that after Rhaegar and Lyanna eloped they "dissapeared", but later when Aerys sent Gerold Hightower to bring Rhaegar back, he has no problems to find him; so obviously somebody told him where he was. Who other in Kings Landing could have known, if not Varys?

Maybe someone, for example Ashara, informed Rhaegar, that 7K are in a state of rebellion because of him. So he revealed his whereabouts to Commander of KG, that's how Gerold Hightower knew where to find him. Rhaegar himself revealed where he was. When rebellion begon, Elia contacted Ashara, among other people who were loyal to Elia and Rhaegar, and asked those people to pass message to Rhaegar, if they will meet him. Maybe Ashara knew where her brother was, and that's when she went to TofJ, and stayed there after Rhaegar left. Maybe in span of those 9 months, she was frequently going there and back, between Starfall and Tower of Joy.

During rebellion Ned and Howland were looking everywhere for Rhaegar's Kingsguards, but couldn't find them anywhere. So maybe Ned himself contacted Ashara, and asked her where her brother could be, that he helped Rhaegar to kidnap Ned's sister Lyanna. Supposedly Ned and Ashara liked each other, so for his sake she found her brother, and thru him informed Rhaegar about rebellion.

Edited by Megorova

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On 10/2/2017 at 7:19 PM, Val's monster said:

I know that during this penultimate season Varys has been very much a bystander in the events going on, I believe this is due to the show needing to show all of the other storylines as a more vital part of the GOT experience.

There has been the confirmation about Jon's parentage via both Bran and Samwell. In Bran's flashback to the Tower of Joy there were 3 Kings guards (out of 7) and several ladies in waiting helping Lyanna give birth. The ladies in waiting haven't to my knowledge been named except maybe in theories, however i would feel safe to assume that they would either been at Aerys court or servants of the royal court in king's Landing. Rheagar wouldn't have left his new wife, to have her first child, with people he didn't trust in the middle of a rebellion. Pregnancies take time, so even if R+L only ever stayed at the ToJ it would be unlikely that either all of the KG or the ladies in waiting would have been there for the 40 or so weeks of the pregnancy. 

We know that Rheagar left Lyanna and the ToJ to go and fight the rebellion and to go on to die at the Ruby ford, it would be reasonable for him to have passed through King's Landing, firstly to receive orders from his father ( who was still king, even if he was mad). It would be at this point that I would speculate that Rheagar would have sent his good friend Arthur Dayne to protect his new wife and unborn child he may have also sent the ladies in waiting. 

So onto Varys, we know that he acted as Aerys' Master of secrets, In other words a spymaster. He was a very effective spymaster at this time, according to both the books and the TV show, so much so that when he pledged loyalty to Robert he was kept on in the same position. we saw from season 1 and Book 1 that he was skilled in disguising himself (think Ned in the black cells). We know from Tyrions escape in both books and show that there was a network of tunnel and listening positions within the whole of the Red Keep, which included the Tower of the Hand, and would likely include the KG tower as well. We also know that he (and not Qyburn) developed the network of children that acted as his informants. In fact it is fair to say Varys' whole purpose of being was to collect information.

I know in the books that he has another Targ in the game and hasn't met Danerys, But in the Show, Why doesn't he seem to know or realise about the R+L=J and his Queen being blood relations or is it just a convienience for the producers to let Bran/Sam do the big reveal.?

The events at the TOJ were kept secret by all the parties involved. And Varys cannot have as strong a network of spies everywhere as he did in KL. Which makes me think nobody at the TOJ was from KL. They were all likely from Dorne. And Rhaegar frequently visited Summerhall, so he probably had a lot of allies in Dorne.

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Another theory - Edric Dayne is son of Ashara Dayne and Howland Reed.

Supposedly he was born in 287 at Starfall, while Jojen Reed was born in 286 at Graywater Watch.

Edric Dayne's father was brother of Arthur, Ashara, and Allyria, but his name for some reason is unknown. And he's already dead. And Edric is Lord of Starfall, and head of Dayne's house.

His mother's name is also unknown. But what is known is this: "Edric was born at Starfall in Dorne to Lord Dayne and his wife. Edric's mother did not have enough milk for him when he was born, so he was nursed by a woman named Wylla, the alleged mother of Jon Snow." Names of both parents are unknown, but wet nurse's name is known. Weird, isn't it? :huh:

So maybe actually he was born in 286, at Graywater Watch, at the same time as Jojen, by  the same mother, Jyana Reed, who is actually Ashara Dayne. So one child she kept (Jojen), and the other one (Edric) she sent to Dorne, to make him Lord of Starfall. And he was fed by Willa, not because his mother did not have enough milk, but because his mother was at Graywater Watch. He was born in late 286, but by the time he was transported from the Neck to Dorne, it was already early 287, so Dayne's family said to everyone that the baby was born just now, in 287.

But the actual reason why Reeds had to send this child away, is because he didn't looked anything like Reed. "He is described as having pale blond hair and dark blue eyes that appear purple." Ashara Dayne who is posing as Jyana Reed, has dark hair and violet eyes. Their older daughter Meera had brown hair and green eyes. Probably Meera looked more like her father, and not like her mother. But Jojen looked less like Reed, while the other boy looked totally like Dayne. If his blue eyes could have been explained by violet eyes of his mother, then his pale blond hair couldn't be explained. So they had to separate their boys, and to send one of them to Starfall. 

Edric's alias is Ned. If his real father is Howland Reed, and mother is Ashara Dayne, then it's reasonable that he's using alias Ned.

Howland Reed gave name Jon to Eddard's son, so he named his own son Ned. Though they keep in secret that Edric Dayne is actually son of Howland Reed, so they don't use Ned as his first name, they pretend that Ned is just his alias, and not his actual name.

If this is so, then it all makes sence. Because why else would Dayne's family call their little Lord with a name of person who supposedly killed Arthur Dayne, and because of whom their lady Ashara commited suicide?

Now I get it why GRRM is writing his books for so loooooooooong, that's because plot lines of those books, are additionally wrapped in a web of hidden secrets, hints and clues.

Edited by Megorova

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3 hours ago, Megorova said:

And I think that the other one, that was Jon's wet nurse, also died. During that winter when little Jon was very sick, and nearly died. Maybe both of them got sick, and after his wet nurse died, Cat took over and cared after Jon.

Or that wet nurse moved away from Winterfell, in the late 286, when Jon was a bit over 3 years old. And her name was Wylla.

The same Wylla who was wet nurse of Edric Dayne, the one whom Ned said to Robert was Jon's mother, but actually she was Jon's wet nurse.

So what Edric Dayne said to Arya was true, though he was simultaniously wrong:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Wylla

"Lord Edric Dayne tells Arya Stark that he and Jon Snow are "milk brothers". He elaborates that one of the servants of his house, called Wylla, was Jon Snow's mother. When his own mother had no milk, Wylla became Edric's wet-nurse. Since Edric is about four years yonger than Jon, this must have been long after Lord Eddard brought Jon to Winterfell. According to Edric, Wylla worked for many years at Starfall. Arya, who has never heard the name and is aware that Jon doesn't know anything about his mother, first thinks that Edric might be mocking her, but when he swears on the honor of his house that he's telling the truth"

1. We know that Wylla isn't Jon's mother. 2. But Edric Dayne claims that he and Jon Snow are "milk brothers". 1 & 2 don't contradict each other, if Wylla was wet nurse for both of them.

One of those women, present during finale moments of Lyanna, was lady Ashara Dayne, and the other one was wet nurse Wylla, that Ashara brought with her from Starfall beforehand. After Lyanna's death, Ned took Jon and Wylla to Winterfell. And Ashara changed her name to Jyana, and went with Howland Reed to Greywater Watch. Several years later, when Jyana gave birth to twin boys, and one of them had distinctive features of Dayne's, she summoned Wylla to her. Then Wylla took Jyana's son, and went with him to Starfall. There he was named Edric Dayne, and Wylla became his wet nurse, and stayed at Starfall from then on.

Edit:

Meera was born in Starfall in 282, and not at Greywater Watch in 283. Ashara Dayne and Howland Reed conceived their child in 281, during Tourney at Harrenhal. 

"According to Allyria Dayne, Ashara and Ned Stark fell in love at Harrenhal. Barristan was also in love with Ashara, although he never told her so. Barristan believes that Ashara was dishonored by someone at Harrenhal."

"Had he won, he would have crowned Ashara Dayne, who he was enamoured with, as queen of love and beauty and wonders that if he had, would Ashara not have killed herself from grief over a child supposedly fathered on her by a Stark. Barristan considers that his greatest failure."

For some reason people thought that 1. Ashara was dishonored by someone at Harrenhal, 2. she fell in love with Ned Stark, 3. she was pregnant from Ned Stark.

If Ashara indeed was pregnant, then there's two possibilities. 1. Either she herself didn't knew who the father was, but thought that it may be Ned. She was drunk after the feast, last thing she remembers is how she was dancing with Ned Stark. But after that she was escorted to her tent by Howland Reed, though this part and what was after, she didn't remembered. 2. Or she knew that it was Howland, but intentionally made her family think that it was Ned Stark. Because she fell in love with Howland, and wanted to protect him from wrath of her family. She thought that Ned Stark has more chances against her brother Arthur. And the reason why she fell in love with Howland and not Ned, is because when they met, Ned was a shy boy, while Howland was a wounded boy. So on scale of maternal instinct Howland had higher rating.

Ashara became pregnant in 281, gave birth to Meera in 282. By the time Rhaegar brought Lyanna to Tower of Joy, Meera lived in Starfall, and Wylla was her wet nurse. Then Arthur informed his sister, that he participated in kidnapping of Ned Stark's sister Lyanna, thus he paid back for what Ned did to Ashara. Then Ashara took with her Meera and Wylla, and went to TofJ to explain everything to her brother. When she arrived there, and learned that Lyanna is pregnant, she stayed there with her. Afterwards, when Lyanna died, Ashara gave her wet nurse to Jon, while she took Meera and went with her and Howland to his castle. It was in 283. He introduced her to everyone as his wife Jyana. And they lied to everyone that their daughter Meera was born in 283 at Greywater Watch.

Kind of convoluted theories, both about Edric and Meera, but this is the same sort of convolution, as lie about Jon's birth.

Ned went to Dorne only by the end of Rebellion, in 283. So how is it possible that his bastard child, from Dorne, was conceived 9 months earlier? At that time Ned was in Riverlands with Cat, conceiving Robb. Nevertheless people didn't realised that it doesn't make sense.

 

P.S. Sorry for polluting this Varys' thread, with theories about kids.

Edited by Megorova

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7 hours ago, Megorova said:

I think that the other maid (not the one who became Jon's wet nurse), was Ashara Dayne. And she married with Howland Reed.

This is how I got this idea:

From the show we know that there...

Interesting theory. 

Yes, some fans support the idea that Ashara married Howland Reed. Others think she is Septa Lemore.  It's obvious there is some mistery regarding her character, but for several reasons I'm reluctant to think that she married Howland. The main reason is that Howland literally backstabbed her brother. Although I understand why he did it, it was a very dishonorable act, and a death that  the most legendary warrior of his generation surely did not deserve. It would be easier for me to believe that  Danaerys would marry Jaime, than Ashara would marry Howland after what he did. 
The other reason is that the Daynes were loyal to Rhaegar, not to Ned. And once Rhaegar and his other children died, they were loyal to baby Aegon Targaryen, as Rhaegar's heir, and by extension to his mother, not to "Jon Snow" a fake bastard and to Lyanna Stark, sister of the Lord of Winterfell. I mean that  Arthur and the other KG gave their lives to eventually be able to restore the Targaryen dinasty. If the baby needed to be hidden a time, and the secret  of his birth had to be kept, it was only to protect him until the time arrived to restore him in power. They didn't fight to death to protect "Jon"'s and his mother's lives, which weren't in any danger from Ned Stark; they fought to death to protect the Targaryen dynasty, that was the thing that was threatened if they delivered the child to Ned, as it in fact happened when Ned raised that child as his bastard and hid his origin and birthright to everybody, even the boy himself.
And the third reason is that, if Ashara married Howland, why did she fake her death? It wasn't necessary at all.

7 hours ago, Megorova said:

I noticed that sword in scene of Lyanna's death, so I researched more info about it.

The Dawn sword was made from meteorite, the same as sword of Azor Ahai. So apparently this sword is the ultimate weapon, with which Jon will defeat Night's King.

Where that sword is now, and how Jon can get to it?

Dawn was made from a meteorite; as far as I'm aware, nowhere is the same said about Lightbringer, Azor Ahai's sword.

About Dawn, GRRM said that it is still in Starfall (here), awaiting the Dayne swordman worthy to wield it. It is not enough to be a good one, it has to be an exceptional one, so it's no wonder that there have been none since Arthur Dayne died; it is known that  in the history of  House Dayne there were occasions when no one of a generation was outstanding enough, and the sword rested in its place without anyone to wield it.  Unlike other ancestral swords, it does not belong to the Lord or to the heir, only to the Dayne worthy of being called "Sword of the Morning"

Edited by LucyMormont

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1 hour ago, LucyMormont said:

The main reason is that Howland literally backstabbed her brother. Although I understand why he did it, it was a very dishonorable act, and a death that  the most legendary warrior of his generation surely did not deserve. It would be easier for me to believe that  Danaerys would marry Jaime, than Ashara would marry Howland after what he did. 

But what if by that time, she already gave birth to Howland's child (Meera)?

And also what if Arthur participated in Lyanna's kidnapping, because he thought that Ned Stark seduced his sister, and she gave birth to Ned's child?

Then in Ashara's eyes, the one in the wrong was her brother, and not Howland. Also if she loved Howland, and wanted to protect him, then the reason why she lied to her family, that the father is Ned, and not Howland, because in a duel against Arthur, Howland had 0 chance to survive. So she would rather see her brother be killed by Ned, then her brother killing Howland. Thus she forgave Howland.

Also maybe she didn't stayed in the Tower willingly. Maybe after she went there with her baby, Arthur imprisoned them both. He was waiting for Ned, and wanted to kill him, and to show his dead body to his sister, and make her suffer. Because in his eyes, Ashara dishonored and defamed Daynes' family.

(Romeo killed Juliet's cousin, nevertheless she married with him, and even died for him.) ^_^

Tyrion killed Davos' son, nevertheless they are on the same side now.

Brienne killed Stannis, but Davos doesn't hate her for it.

The Hound served to Lannisters, but Jon accepted him.

Mad King burned Jon's grandfather and uncle, but Jon still fell in love with Dany.

Howland killed Ashara's brother, so what? :huh: She can forgive him. Furthermore to make Howland fight against Arthur, is unfair, he's nearly twice higher than Howland. Backstabbing is dishonorably in a fair fight, but if Howland had to fight with someone with such a huge advantage over him, then it wasn't.

Quote

The other reason is that the Daynes were loyal to Rhaegar, not to Ned.

Rhaegar died, Lyanna died. But before dying, she entrusted her baby to Ned's care. Thus by extension, Ashara also obeyed to Ned.

1 hour ago, LucyMormont said:

I mean that  Arthur and the other KG gave their lives to eventually be able to restore the Targaryen dinasty. If the baby needed to be hidden a time, and the secret  of his birth had to be kept, it was only to protect him until the time arrived to restore him in power.

There was no way to accomplish that. All other Targaryens were dead, or in exile, while their mortal enemy Robert Baratheon became King of 7K. Under those circumstances, making Jon king was impossible.

They fought to death, because they had to protect wife of their Prince, and the baby. They didn't knew what was Ned's intentions. Furthermore his intentions didn't mattered. They couldn't be sure, that Ned won't kill the baby, or reveal his identity to his best friend Robert.

They fought and died, because they had to. Not because they dreamed about Targaryens' restoration.

1 hour ago, LucyMormont said:

And the third reason is that, if Ashara married Howland, why did she fake her death? It wasn't necessary at all.

Why did Juliet faked her death?

She herself forgave Romeo for killing her cousin, but her family could've never let them be together.

Same applies to Ashara's faked death. She freed herself. Changed her identity, and started a new life with a man she loved.

Quote

About Dawn, GRRM said that it is still in Starfall

He was also saying, since 1993, that Jon is Ned's son.

Doesn't mean that it's true.

Quote

Dawn was made from a meteorite; as far as I'm aware, nowhere is the same said about Lightbringer, Azor Ahai's sword.

For some reason I was sure that Azor Ahai also made his sword from meteorite. I have read it somewhere. Though probably I'm wrong.

Yep, I'm a bit wrong. Sword of new Azor Ahai will be made from meteorite <- though that's my own interpretation of that prophecy.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Azor_Ahai

"There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him."

Burning sword drawn from the fire = sword made from meteorite.

'Lightbringer' & 'the darkness shall flee before him' = Dawn (dawn is sunrise, with sunrise comes light, and darkness of the night goes away)

Thus Dawn sword is a Lightbringer of Azor Ahai come again.

Edited by Megorova

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