Who is the dumbest POV character?

[Stormking902]

3 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

It's debatable whether Tywin would have okayed the RW with Jaime a captive.  You would have to reckon on the possibility of retaliation and that, however blameless Jaime was for those events and however dishonourable it would be to murder him in revenge, passions would be running high and it would be a risk.  It's then a straight trade-off between pragmatism: we've already lost the war and Edmure is a hostage so if we touch Jaime Tywin-my-middle-name-is-rains-of-Castamere is going to exterminate every single one of us so let's bend the knee and keep his son safe; and full on Karstark style blood for blood revenge regardless of the consequences (and look at what those were for Lord Rickard).

Point is Frey only turns to plotting when Robb breaks their alliance and dishonours him by marrying a Westerling and Bolton only starts plotting agasint Robb when Winterfell is lost and Stannis defeated on the Blackwater.  Catelyn releasing Jaime could have had a big impact if he had led Lannister armies to glorious victories agaisnt the Starks and Tullys or the Barratheons but that's not the story that GRRM wrote.  Catelyn releasing Jaime has remarkably little impact on things other than to cost Robb the Karstarks and deepen the air of gloom around the Stark cause. 

What lost the war for Robb was 1) sending Theon to Pyke and this losing WF and apparently his next two heirs - Bran and Rickon, 2) Balon launching his strike and Robb losing the North - again triggered by Robb releasing Theon instead of keeping him close as Catelyn urged, 3) Robb marrying Jeyne Westerliing and breaking the Frey alliance, 4) poor old Edmure unwittingly halting Tywin's attempt to move back to the Westerlands and thus foiling Robb's planned showdown which in turn gave time for 5) Stannis getting smashed on the Blackwater and the emergence of the militarily and poitically vastly superior Lannister-Tyrell alliance.

The Lannisters suspect Robert has appointed Ned as Hand because he intends to move against them and put Cersei aside.  It's right there on page in the Bran chapter immediately before Jaime throws him out the window.

Couple that with the fact that both Jaime and Cersei obviously know they tried to kill Bran and the apparent reason for Catelyn's secret visit to KL is to warn Ned of what she has learned or suspects.  There is simply no credible reason for the wife of the Hand of the King to make a secret visit half the length of the kingdom to her husband unless it is for exactly the purpose she makes it - to tell him of what she has learned and allow him to plan his next moves agaisnt his enemies without them being aware he is making those plans.

Plus Tywin sends Gregor Clegane to ravage the Riverlands while Robert is alive and well.  How is he to know Robert is out hunting in the Kingswood at the time? 

And Robert is both alive and well and present in the Red Keep when Jaime does accost Ned in the streets intending to kill him.....

I was speaking about IF Cat didnt arrest Tyrion at the inn, which if she didnt Tywin wouldnt invade the RL because he would have no reason to and Jamie wouldnt attack Ned in the streets because again there would be no need.

 

Your correct about the Lannisters assuming Cat was informing Ned that Jamie was responsible for Brans fall but what could they do? Without Tywin in open rebellion they have no army and no power and they cant just murder Ned all his northmen, Robert and his KG, Renly and his men, etc........

[zandru]

23 minutes ago, Stormking902 said:

but what could they do? Without Tywin in open rebellion they have no army and no power and they cant just murder Ned all his northmen, Robert and his KG, Renly and his men, etc........

And yet... Once Robert got "boared", Cersei did exactly that: murdered Ned and all his men, using the City Guard and Lannister guards in King's Landing. Renly had already fled, so no immediate problem, and the Kingsguard fell into place behind Joffrey the Psycho. In this case, Cersei had been forewarned by Ned that he knew her secrets and urged her to flee to safety (sweet Ned!) and Sansa had gone crying to Cersei to give her the exact time and date to move on her father. (Teen love - is there any force more destructive?)

Well, yet another reason to give Little Sansa a pass on the "stupidest" competition. At least for the first few books.

Sorry if we're accidently hijacking the thread of "dumbest of the dumb."

[4 Eyed Crow]

Quentyn - because that whole dragon scheme was stupid

Pate of AFFC - he may be training to be a maester of the citadel, but he doesn’t seem very bright

[zandru]

5 minutes ago, 4 Eyed Crow said:

Pate of AFFC - he may be training to be a maester of the citadel, but he doesn’t seem very bright

I'm with you on Pate. Apparently he'd been there for years and had yet to forge a single link?? Unfortunately, "he's" now a whole lot sharper.

[Angel Eyes]

6 hours ago, Colonel Green said:

Littlefinger was a childhood friend of hers.  She had no real reason not to trust him.

That has nothing to do with anything in this thread.

And yet, she told Ned to not trust Robert, even though Robert was a childhood friend of Ned's.

[the trees have eyes]

7 hours ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

Oh, it's Vic. All day long. He literally has no idea and seems to be very easily manipulated. I suppose the Jury is out on Areo Hotah.... It would be wrong to include Hodor, clearly. 

Sansa is/was very naive. It wouldn't be fair to call her stupid when 'conditioned' would be a better description. She just needs to learn the hard way.

I think Selyse Florent is verging on stupid. She literally has nothing of any value to add to...anything. 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Arthor Karstark could easily be described as stupid. Perhaps along with Hosteen Frey if Stannis is to be believed. 

 

Stupidity is a measure of your intelligence or lack of it.  It's very hard to judge a child because they can be an early bloomer - as Arya appears to be - or a late bloomer - as Sansa appears to be.  Sure, she was an incredibly naive and sheltered 11/12 year old but her mistakes of AGOT are ones she has learned from and the naivety is completely gone, that's for sure.  I can't tell other people what to think but if they (not you clearly) rate a sheltered and naive 11 year old as the dumbest character in the books I can but disagree.

5 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

I was speaking about IF Cat didnt arrest Tyrion at the inn, which if she didnt Tywin wouldnt invade the RL because he would have no reason to and Jamie wouldnt attack Ned in the streets because again there would be no need.

 

Your correct about the Lannisters assuming Cat was informing Ned that Jamie was responsible for Brans fall but what could they do? Without Tywin in open rebellion they have no army and no power and they cant just murder Ned all his northmen, Robert and his KG, Renly and his men, etc........

It's interesting to speculate what would have happened absent the catnapping.  In the event news of Tyrion's arrest reaches the Lannisters before it reaches Ned so he is caught off guard.  If Jaime had been smarter they would have advanced the whole death-by-wine-and-boar plot and made similar designs to off Ned with him all unaware of it.  Then again the window of opportunity before the news became common gossip may have been too small to act.

As to what they could do...  You have to bear in mind that Cersei and Jaime were planning to off Robert anyway.  Remember the Hand's Tourney where Ned managed to prevent Robert fighting in the melee despite Cersei's best attempts to make him do so with her psychological "I forbid you to fight" red rag to a bull.  Varys later tells Ned that the Lannisters were panning to kill Robert in the melee.  So they merely take Robert out of play which is of course what they do in story.  They were trying to do it before the catnapping and It happens with or without Catelyn's intervention.  And they would have had to off loyal Ned, one half of the Nedbert, too.  It doesn't really change anything, it just appears to accelerate things but if Robert died in the Tourney all this would have happened before Tyrion's arrest so I don't even think it accelerates things, the twins were simply looking for an opportunity for an "accident" to befall Robert.  A mace in a tourney, a boar in the woods, a surfeit of lamprey pie or a slip on the stairs while blind drunk....

And is Tywin really in the dark?  He is gathering sellswords at Casterly Rock and the Bloody Mummers aren't retained and brought over because of Tyrion that I recall, the timescale is too short for that.  Tywin wants his grandson on the throne and Robert is absolutely unnecessary to those plans.  After Jaime kills Ned's men he makes straight for Casterly Rock and is next seen leading Lannister armies agasint Riverrun.  It all looks too suspiciously smooth.  But even if we allow that Tywin is merely ruthlessly efficient and quick to act Cersei manages to off Robert under Ned's nose without even Jaime to help and deus ex machina LF is on hand to cement her triumph.  All this can and does happen regardless of the catnapping.

[TheThreeEyedCow]

12 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Stupidity is a measure of your intelligence or lack of it.  It's very hard to judge a child because they can be an early bloomer - as Arya appears to be - or a late bloomer - as Sansa appears to be.  Sure, she was an incredibly naive and sheltered 11/12 year old but her mistakes of AGOT are ones she has learned from and the naivety is completely gone, that's for sure.  I can't tell other people what to think but if they (not you clearly) rate a sheltered and naive 11 year old as the dumbest character in the books I can but disagree.

I'd say you could go one further and actually disprove her alleged stupidity. But, we'd find ourselves in 'spoiler' territory. 

Her bastard brother is told, 'kill the boy, and let the man be born'. So it stands to reason that this applies to females too. Eventually, Sansa 'the girl' will have to make way for Sansa 'the woman'. And I completely agree she'll use all of her past mistakes as she goes forward.    

[OnceABolton]

Quentyn Martell for sure. He tried to tame three dragons and got himself killed. I mean, I don't think it gets much more stupid than that.

[zandru]

9 minutes ago, OnceABolton said:

Quentyn Martell for sure. He tried to tame three dragons and got himself killed. I mean, I don't think it gets much more stupid than that.

There were only two: Viseryon and Rhaegal. Drogon had moved out east.

[beauty6]

17 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

As to what they could do...  You have to bear in mind that Cersei and Jaime were planning to off Robert anyway.  Remember the Hand's Tourney where Ned managed to prevent Robert fighting in the melee despite Cersei's best attempts to make him do so with her psychological "I forbid you to fight" red rag to a bull.  Varys later tells Ned that the Lannisters were panning to kill Robert in the melee.  So they merely take Robert out of play which is of course what they do in story.  They were trying to do it before the catnapping and It happens with or without Catelyn's intervention.  And they would have had to off loyal Ned, one half of the Nedbert, too.  It doesn't really change anything, it just appears to accelerate things but if Robert died in the Tourney all this would have happened before Tyrion's arrest so I don't even think it accelerates things, the twins were simply looking for an opportunity for an "accident" to befall Robert.  A mace in a tourney, a boar in the woods, a surfeit of lamprey pie or a slip on the stairs while blind drunk....

I am not sure about the melee thing. Cersei might have just feel embarrassed at the idea to see Robert in the melee and Varys might have just provoked Ned.

[zandru]

43 minutes ago, beauty6 said:

Cersei might have just feel embarrassed at the idea to see Robert in the melee

And why would she feel that? Cersei hated Robert, and watching him humiliate himself publicly would please her no end. Ditto Jaime.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

3 hours ago, zandru said:

And why would she feel that? Cersei hated Robert, and watching him humiliate himself publicly would please her no end. Ditto Jaime.

I agree. I think Varys tells it true. There's no indication that Cersei troubles her self with whether or not Robert makes a fool of him self. 

[Winter's Cold]

Catelyn isn't dumb. She's just too impulsive and as a result she makes some terrible decisions instead of thinking it through.

Sansa isn't dumb. She's just extremely selfish and power hungry. She wants to be Queen, so she betrays her family repeatedly to stay in good graces with Cersei and Joffrey. 

[winter daughter]

35 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

Catelyn isn't dumb. She's just too impulsive and as a result she makes some terrible decisions instead of thinking it through.

Sansa isn't dumb. She's just extremely selfish and power hungry. She wants to be Queen, so she betrays her family repeatedly to stay in good graces with Cersei and Joffrey. 

I agree about Cat. I think she was smart but as you said she was also impulsive.

Sansa was selfish but she was not power hungry. she wanted to be queen because she was obsessed with songs and stories not because she craved power. she had a childish notion of queenship.

[Winter's Cold]

4 hours ago, winter daughter said:

I agree about Cat. I think she was smart but as you said she was also impulsive.

Sansa was selfish but she was not power hungry. she wanted to be queen because she was obsessed with songs and stories not because she craved power. she had a childish notion of queenship.

She wanted Arya to bow to her as a superior.

Quote

“Go Ahead, call me all the names you want," Sansa said airily. "You won't dare when I'm married to Joffrey. You'll have to bow and call me Your Grace." 

Being the top lady in the realm was her primary reason for marrying Joffrey. She saw the power and influence Cersei wielded and she wanted to be in her position someday.

She also doesn't seem to care much about common folk as shown by her victim blaming of Mycah. 

[the trees have eyes]

2 hours ago, Winter's Cold said:

She wanted Arya to bow to her as a superior.

Being the top lady in the realm was her primary reason for marrying Joffrey. She saw the power and influence Cersei wielded and she wanted to be in her position someday.

She also doesn't seem to care much about common folk as shown by her victim blaming of Mycah. 

Two children squabbling is hardly evidence of a lust for power. 

She's been raised to expect to marry a lord or a prince and handsome Prince Joffrey could have stepped out of the songs she loved so much.  It's not like she had any reason for marrying Joffrey as it was something Bobby B and her father arranged for her and she had no say.  As for envying Cersei, hardly.  Cersei tells her to make people fear her, Sansa thinks to herself that as queen she would make people love her.  Before her marriage to Tyrion she would happily have accepted Willas and some puppies over queenship.

She has little exposure to common folk but she is more of a nuturer and a carer than a power seeker - saving Dontos's life in the face of Joffrey's callous brutality, tending to Lancel even while she tells herself he is the enemy, soothing Robert Arryn and helping him across the bridge on the descent from the Eyrie.

[Moiraine Sedai]

Sansa is the dumbest, in my opinion.

Some other dumb people:

1. Patch Face
2. Gregor
3. Vic (pov)
4. Arya (pov)
5. Aegon Frey
6. Hodor
7. Wundar Weg
8. Qwentyn
9. Lyanna
10. Brandon

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

7 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Sansa is the dumbest, in my opinion.

Some other dumb people:

1. Patch Face
2. Gregor
3. Vic (pov)
4. Arya (pov)
5. Aegon Frey
6. Hodor
7. Wundar Weg
8. Qwentyn
9. Lyanna
10. Brandon

Just out of curiosity why are Patchface, Gregor, Arya, Hodor, & Wundar dumb? 

[winter daughter]

17 hours ago, Winter's Cold said:

She wanted Arya to bow to her as a superior.

She said it in a childish fight with Arya. Why are you using it as a proof of her lust for power?

Cersei is extremely power hungry and you are putting an 11 year old on the same level as her.

17 hours ago, Winter's Cold said:

She also doesn't seem to care much about common folk as shown by her victim blaming of Mycah. 

In the first book? sure. she was a self-centered child.

But in her first ACOK chapter she saved a drunk stranger. before the riot of KL she stopped Joffery from riding down a commoner. before the Battle of the Blackwater she was the only highborn lady that joined the common folk in the sept and sang with them.

14 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Two children squabbling is hardly evidence of a lust for power. 

She's been raised to expect to marry a lord or a prince and handsome Prince Joffrey could have stepped out of the songs she loved so much.  It's not like she had any reason for marrying Joffrey as it was something Bobby B and her father arranged for her and she had no say.  As for envying Cersei, hardly.  Cersei tells her to make people fear her, Sansa thinks to herself that as queen she would make people love her.  Before her marriage to Tyrion she would happily have accepted Willas and some puppies over queenship.

She has little exposure to common folk but she is more of a nuturer and a carer than a power seeker - saving Dontos's life in the face of Joffrey's callous brutality, tending to Lancel even while she tells herself he is the enemy, soothing Robert Arryn and helping him across the bridge on the descent from the Eyrie.

Very well said.

[manchester_babe]

Dany, Tyrion, & Davos. :-)