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In support of N + A = J


Damsel in Distress

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26 minutes ago, Faera said:

Perhaps, but I think I'd need more hints as to a connection between Daenerys and Ashara first before I pick up on that spool. I like it as an idea. I just need to know how such a set-up could work, first. It also brings us no close to knowing who did-done-did it to make Daenerys. I know people have said Rhaegar but there really is no evidence for that at all aside from Ashara being Elia's lady-in-waiting, of which she must have had many.

I look at the text and it depends on what you think a subtle hint looks like.  With Rhaegar and Ashara there is opportunity because they can be located in the same place during a specified timeframe.  There is motivation on Rhaegar's part to produce another child.  There is proof that Dany fits the prophecy for waking dragons from stone.  There is Dany's dream where she wakes the dragon and sees a line of her ancestor kings holding the pale sword which links her to the Daynes.  There are Dany's dreams of Rhaegar and switching places with Rhaegar.  There is her obsession with Rhaegar and modelling herself on Rhaegar.  She is told by those who knew both Aerys and Rhaegar that she is more like Rhaegar in temperament than Aerys.   There are a ton of holes in Dany's backstory as told to her by Viserys casting doubt on her birth story.  There is Quaithe who keeps telling Dany to remember who she is.  Dany does not appear to be who she thinks she is.

Evidence is the available body of facts or 'information' to support a proposition. There is as much evidence to support RAD as there is to support RLJ.  Probably more for RAD because it makes more sense if you look at the text concerning Rhaegar's character according to Jorah and Barristan.  Rhaegar's relationship may have been as complicated as Renly's relationship with Margery and Loras; but I find it highly unlikely that Rhaegar would have kidnapped Lyanna for love or as a means for starting a war.

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9 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I look at the text and it depends on what you think a subtle hint looks like.  With Rhaegar and Ashara there is opportunity because they can be located in the same place during a specified timeframe.  There is motivation on Rhaegar's part to produce another child.  There is proof that Dany fits the prophecy for waking dragons from stone.  There is Dany's dream where she wakes the dragon and sees a line of her ancestor kings holding the pale sword which links her to the Daynes.  There are Dany's dreams of Rhaegar and switching places with Rhaegar.  There is her obsession with Rhaegar and modelling herself on Rhaegar.  She is told by those who knew both Aerys and Rhaegar that she is more like Rhaegar in temperament than Aerys.   There are a ton of holes in Dany's backstory as told to her by Viserys casting doubt on her birth story.  There is Quaithe who keeps telling Dany to remember who she is.  Dany does not appear to be who she thinks she is.

Evidence is the available body of facts or 'information' to support a proposition. There is as much evidence to support RAD as there is to support RLJ.  Probably more for RAD because it makes more sense if you look at the text concerning Rhaegar's character according to Jorah and Barristan.  Rhaegar's relationship may have been as complicated as Renly's relationship with Margery and Loras; but I find it highly unlikely that Rhaegar would have kidnapped Lyanna for love or as a means for starting a war.

I suppose my biggest gripe with the idea is I don't see how Daenerys's father being Rhaegar changes anything. Like, realistically, what difference does it make? She never knew her father either way... and of course she feels some connection to Rhaegar because he was her brother.

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14 minutes ago, Faera said:

I suppose my biggest gripe with the idea is I don't see how Daenerys's father being Rhaegar changes anything. Like, realistically, what difference does it make? She never knew her father either way... and of course she feels some connection to Rhaegar because he was her brother.

The whole business of the prophecy comes to mind.

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37 minutes ago, Faera said:

How do you mean?

All of the speculation concerning parentage has been driven by the question of the prophecies; the PWiP, AA in all their variations.  Because this is central to the story of ice and fire itself.  Especially around Jon being the PwiP.  I question the assumptions about Jon especially, since it looks like Dany is the Dayne Heiress and fits the prophecy for waking dragons from stone.  Something that Maester Aemon connects to the PwIP who will come from the line of Aerys.  If Ashara is Dany's mother; then either Aerys or Rhaegar is the father.  For me the difference boils down to opportunity and motivation and the scales tip in Rhaegar's favor.  This means that Dany and Jon are a year older than we have been told.

It also means that Jon is not the PwiP.  Does he then fit with the AA prophecy whatever that means?

I would also mention something about Howland at the Tourney.  He wasn't just there to make a connection to Lyanna and Ned.  He also had a keen interest in Ashara, watching her dance all night.  The Reeds have an unusual oath of allegiance (my interps in brackets):

We swear it by earth and water, (the land,)

We swear it by bronze and iron, (the crown)

We swear it by ice and fire. (the sword)

Dany seems to be forming up on the fire side with Jon on the ice side.  The gods on the Isle of Faces seem to be intervening  with both the Daynes and the Starks.  If it wasn't for Howland, Arthur Dayne would have killed Ned and Bran,Arya, Rob and Rickon would not have been born and Jon would not have Ned's protection.

 

    

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21 minutes ago, LynnS said:

All of the speculation concerning parentage has been driven by the question of the prophecies; the PWiP, AA in all their variations.  Because this is central to the story of ice and fire itself.  Especially around Jon being the PwiP.  I question the assumptions about Jon especially, since it looks like Dany is the Dayne Heiress and fits the prophecy for waking dragons from stone.  Something that Maester Aemon connects to the PwIP who will come from the line of Aerys.  If Ashara is Dany's mother; then either Aerys or Rhaegar is the father.  For me the difference boils down to opportunity and motivation and the scales tip in Rhaegar's favor.  This means that Dany and Jon are a year older than we have been told.

It also means that Jon is not the PwiP.  Does he then fit with the AA prophecy whatever that means?

I would also mention something about Howland at the Tourney.  He wasn't just there to make a connection to Lyanna and Ned.  He also had a keen interest in Ashara, watching her dance all night.  The Reeds have an unusual oath of allegiance (my interps in brackets):

We swear it by earth and water, (the land,)

We swear it by bronze and iron, (the crown)

We swear it by ice and fire. (the sword)

Dany seems to be forming up on the fire side with Jon on the ice side.  The gods on the Isle of Faces seem to be intervening  with both the Daynes and the Starks.  If it wasn't for Howland, Arthur Dayne would have killed Ned and Bran,Arya, Rob and Rickon would not have been born and Jon would not have Ned's protection.

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Interesting. I can't say I completely agree as I think there is a lot of interpretation in the Oath of House Reed. I also sincerely doubt that the face value of TPtwP or Azor Ahai prophecy can be taken at face value. Frankly for it to be either Jon or Dany does seem obvious so it seems fair to assume it will be both of them. Dany, perhaps, fits the "criteria" Mel set more obviously whereas Jon's is a little more subtle. I do think that the prophecy is a red herring. Half of my reasons for rejecting the N+A theory is because it is one quite readily presented to us, to a point where concluding that Jon was their love child isn't enough of a secret or reveal to make it worth GRRM dragging out the mystery this long.

I also cannot believe that Jon and Dany could be a whole year older than what we have been told. GRRM isn't big on dates but I think he told us that Dany is nine months younger than Jon, and we know from Cat that following the war, Jon still had a wet-nurse. Considering how fast babies grow in their first few months, there is no way Ned could have passed off Jon as any older or young than a month or so.

Again, I would need more of an indirect hint Dany is Ashara's. We have no true reason to believe there is any connection between them other than Barristan's connection, and absolutely no reason to suspect either Aerys or Rhaegar had a child with Ashara. The general consensus is that she had an affair with someone, true, and Barristan states it was a Stark. We are readers have already been told that she and Ned supposedly had a thing, but it leaves to door open for a different Stark to have been Ashara's mystery man by omitting any direct mention of Ned.

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13 minutes ago, Faera said:

Interesting. I can't say I completely agree as I think there is a lot of interpretation in the Oath of House Reed. I also sincerely doubt that the face value of TPtwP or Azor Ahai prophecy can be taken at face value. Frankly for it to be either Jon or Dany does seem obvious so it seems fair to assume it will be both of them. Dany, perhaps, fits the "criteria" Mel set more obviously whereas Jon's is a little more subtle. I do think that the prophecy is a red herring. Half of my reasons for rejecting the N+A theory is because it is one quite readily presented to us, to a point where concluding that Jon was their love child isn't enough of a secret or reveal to make it worth GRRM dragging out the mystery this long.

I also cannot believe that Jon and Dany could be a whole year older than what we have been told. GRRM isn't big on dates but I think he told us that Dany is nine months younger than Jon, and we know from Cat that following the war, Jon still had a wet-nurse. Considering how fast babies grow in their first few months, there is no way Ned could have passed off Jon as any older or young than a month or so.

Again, I would need more of an indirect hint Dany is Ashara's. We have no true reason to believe there is any connection between them other than Barristan's connection, and absolutely no reason to suspect either Aerys or Rhaegar had a child with Ashara. The general consensus is that she had an affair with someone, true, and Barristan states it was a Stark. We are readers have already been told that she and Ned supposedly had a thing, but it leaves to door open for a different Stark to have been Ashara's mystery man by omitting any direct mention of Ned.

That's alright you don't have to agree.  As far as Ned passing off Jon as younger than his true age;  that's an irrelevant argument in my books.  Cat is going to know that Ned is lying for some reason along with everyone else.  Ned isn't fooling anyone or apologizing for it.  As Jon gets older that becomes less of an issue in terms of appearance.

As far as in an indirect hint; what do you think it means that Dany sees a line of kings holding a pale sword in her wake the dragon dream?     

As far as direct evidence goes; someone who was alive to witness events we don't have any of that for anyone's proposals.  Howland knows apparently, Meera might know and Bran or Jon might find out.  I doubt anything will be handed to us on a plate.

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27 minutes ago, LynnS said:

As far as in an indirect hint; what do you think it means that Dany sees a line of kings holding a pale sword in her wake the dragon dream?     

 

Ooo I actually don't remember that one. Which book was it in, I'll take a look and get back to you.

 

27 minutes ago, LynnS said:

As far as direct evidence goes; someone who was alive to witness events we don't have any of that for anyone's proposals.  Howland knows apparently, Meera might know and Bran or Jon might find out.  I doubt anything will be handed to us on a plate.

Howland is being set up as something of a "light-bringer" (aha) as at least an eyewitness to some of the events that went down. Obviously, if a baby came out of the Tower of Joy, he'll know who it was. He might also know what happened at Starfall since he was Ned's sole surviving companion when they went to return Dawn to Ashara. It is likely that a baby had just been born at Starfall, at least, because of the presence of Wylla. So, that is potentially three babies in total we can account for if Wylla's own child was anyone significant.

Bran could find out in his visions or even, as you say, Meera seems to know at least a little more about what happened during the war. Jojen likely knows too. Knowing GRRM, it'll all be fragmented, with different characters getting different bits of information.

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22 minutes ago, Faera said:

Ooo I actually don't remember that one. Which book was it in, I'll take a look and get back to you.

 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. "Faster," they cried, "faster, faster." She raced, her feet melting the stone wherever they touched. "Faster!" the ghosts cried as one, and she screamed and threw herself forward. A great knife of pain ripped down her back, and she felt her skin tear open and smelled the stench of burning blood and saw the shadow of wings. And Daenerys Targaryen flew.

"… wake the dragon …"

This is only a portion of the dream.  Do you have this search tool:

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/

It seems to work best with Internet Explorer and it's free.

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5 minutes ago, LynnS said:

This is only a portion of the dream.  Do you have this search tool:

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/

It seems to work best with Internet Explorer and it's free.

I shall bookmark this. It will save sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much time!

As for my thoughts. Hm, still undecided. If it had been, IDK, Danerys wielding a pale sword of fire or just a pale sword... maybe I'd be a little more excited. Or if it had just been one massive longsword they were holding between them to demonstrate the heavyweight.

I am due a re-read of the books soon so I might go through on the lookout for "hints that Dany is not the 'real' Daenerys" in the books. I really like the idea, and I have seen some theories on it, so it'll be interesting to look into.

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8 minutes ago, Faera said:

I shall bookmark this. It will save sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much time!

As for my thoughts. Hm, still undecided. If it had been, IDK, Danerys wielding a pale sword of fire or just a pale sword... maybe I'd be a little more excited. Or if it had just been one massive longsword they were holding between them to demonstrate the heavyweight.

I am due a re-read of the books soon so I might go through on the lookout for "hints that Dany is not the 'real' Daenerys" in the books. I really like the idea, and I have seen some theories on it, so it'll be interesting to look into.

This search tool has been very helpful to me.  I've discovered much and more using it.  It's worth it to remember that Martin said that many of his clues are layed down in GoT.  There is much in DwD as well to reframe what we might have thought we knew from GoT. 

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10 minutes ago, Faera said:

I shall bookmark this. It will save sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much time!

As for my thoughts. Hm, still undecided. If it had been, IDK, Danerys wielding a pale sword of fire or just a pale sword... maybe I'd be a little more excited. Or if it had just been one massive longsword they were holding between them to demonstrate the heavyweight.

I am due a re-read of the books soon so I might go through on the lookout for "hints that Dany is not the 'real' Daenerys" in the books. I really like the idea, and I have seen some theories on it, so it'll be interesting to look into.

You may also want to read this thread at the Last Hearth. 

http://thelasthearth.com/thread/572/dany?page=1&scrollTo=26361

You can view it without logging on as a member.

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On 08/10/2017 at 4:37 PM, LynnS said:

You may also want to read this thread at the Last Hearth. 

http://thelasthearth.com/thread/572/dany?page=1&scrollTo=26361

You can view it without logging on as a member.

Very interesting. Again, I still can't say I see it but it is interesting. It would be nice if Daenerys isn't "the real Daenerys"... and the idea she might be some random replacement, a (f)Dany, is a compelling possibility.

We'll have to see where it goes or whether she's Ashara's.

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2 hours ago, Faera said:

Very interesting. Again, I still can't say I see it but it is interesting. It would be nice if Daenerys isn't "the real Daenerys"... and the idea she might be some random replacement, a (f)Dany, is a compelling possibility.

We'll have to see where it goes or whether she's Ashara's.

She is the real Danaerys.  She's just not Viserys' sister and she is being used in Varys and Illyrio schemes.   It suits them to say that she is his sister rather than his cousin because it has more leverage politically with Khal Drogo.  

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31 minutes ago, LynnS said:

She is the real Danaerys.  She's just not Viserys' sister and she is being used in Varys and Illyrio schemes.   It suits them to say that she is his sister rather than his cousin because it has more leverage politically with Khal Drogo.  

Well, she isn't really. The "real" Daenerys would be the daughter of Aerys and Rhaella.

One reservation with the whole "Dany is Rhaegar's daughter, not his sister" thing I have, having read this, is that she would have just as much leverage if not more if they just told the truth. After all, the daughter of the "Last Dragon" who was nice and sane is much more appealing than third-child of the Mad King.

In any case, looking at how Viserys was acting during the preparation of Dany for Khal Drogo, it is almost as if he's worried they won't be able to pass her off as a real Targaryen or something. It's interesting interpretation now I re-read.

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24 minutes ago, Faera said:

Well, she isn't really. The "real" Daenerys would be the daughter of Aerys and Rhaella

Rhaella died in childbirth and so did her daughter. It's doubtful that a 9 year old boy was present at Rhaella's delivery.  We are told that he was wisked away in a hurry across the Narrow Sea on that same night.  It's doubtful that a newborn and a nurse would go with him or that he would be told that anything went wrong.  Varys is an opportunist and most likely had Ashara's child in his keeping at this point.   A boy could be told anything since he is nothing more than a pawn in Varys and Illyrio's schemes at this point.      

Daenerys is the name given to her by her own mother, Ashera.  Varys and Illyrio present Dany as Rhaella's daughter to Viserys and everyone else because it suits their purposes.  But Dany is important because she is Rhaegar's daughter rather than Aerys.  This may be why Illyrio gives her the dragon eggs in the first place. because either Dany or Aegon is the prince or princess of Dragonstone; the PwiP.

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On 8. 10. 2017 at 0:29 PM, Faera said:

There is no reason for us to believe that Jon's parents were married.

Honorable men don't dishonor their lady love by deflowering and impregnating her. That's why N+A doesn't work, it would be totally out of character for Ned, and it doesn't fit with the ever growing emphasis on Rhaegar as a dutiful and honorable man, either. Add to it that Rhaegar as a Targaryen and highly popular Prince Charming would be about the only person in Westeros who might actually get away with reviving the family polygamy history, and you should at least start wondering if GRRM might actually be subtly pointing towards a solution of a seemingly unsolvable dilemma. Plus, the whole PTWP issue - a bastard is neither a prince nor a dragon, so if prophecy was a part of Rhaegar's motivation, then fathering a bastard is no good to him, either.

 

ETA: @Alaskan Sandman, I haven't forgotten, but RL keeps getting in the way.

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21 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Daenerys is the name given to her by her own mother, Ashera. 

Why would Ashara give Daenerys a Targaryen name? If we're following the thread that Rhaegar was her father, wouldn't it make a great deal more sense if her name was Visenya?

In any case, we are getting grossly off topic. This is supposed to be N+A=J not ?+A=D! :blush:

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1 minute ago, Ygrain said:

Honorable men don't dishonor their lady love by deflowering and impregnating her. That's why N+A doesn't work, it would be totally out of character for Ned, and it doesn't fit with the ever growing emphasis on Rhaegar as a dutiful and honorable man, either. Add to it that Rhaegar as a Targaryen and highly popular Prince Charming would be about the only person in Westeros who might actually get away with reviving the family polygamy history, and you should at least start wondering if GRRM might actually be subtly pointing towards a solution of a seemingly unsolvable dilemma. Plus, the whole PTWP issue - a bastard is neither a prince nor a dragon, so if prophecy was a part of Rhaegar's motivation, then fathering a bastard is no good to him, either.

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I agree that the biggest spanner in the works for N+A=J is that it flies in the face of Ned's character. Either way, Ned would have had to impregnate an eligible noblewoman and abandon her, or he married her to save her honour... but promptly adandoned her to commit bigamy, which appears to be the path TOoTGH are going down. Either one doesn't square.

While in my head I have always reasoned that Rhaegar probably did marry Lyanna, using some sort of loophole that he didn't truly follow the Faith of the Seven and therefore didn't consider himself truly married to Elia. Or heck, it is suggested kings can just put aside their wives so why not crown princes. I certainly don't think polygamy is the answer because is causes a whole host of issues. Much more likely he got a divorce or set Elia aside... though even that wasn't going to go down well with the Martells or the rest of Dorne.

Especially since he'd stashed his new woman away in a tower there.

As for TPtWP, as far as well know right now Rhaegar thought his son Aegon was going to be the Prince and that he needed two siblings to be his heads of the dragon. He already had a Rhaenys and now he needed a Visenya (or "Visenys") with Lyanna. So, it might not have mattered whether they were bastard or not, just that they *fit* the prophecy. Bastards can still be dragons, too. The Blackfyres proved that! :)

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34 minutes ago, Faera said:

Why would Ashara give Daenerys a Targaryen name? If we're following the thread that Rhaegar was her father, wouldn't it make a great deal more sense if her name was Visenya?

In any case, we are getting grossly off topic. This is supposed to be N+A=J not ?+A=D! :blush:

Alright, last comment... Danaerys is a perfectly good Targaryen name and it has historical significance with the Martell's.  Why wouldn't Rhaegar use it?

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