In support of N + A = J

[Faera]

The rumour that circulated was that Ashara was Jon Snow's mother until Ned put an end to the rumour. Again, only Barristan ever indicated Ashara had a daughter or that it was stillborn. For all we know she did have a son, it just wasn't Jon. If Barristan was conflating events in believing that Ashara's baby had been stillborn, he could have been wrong about its sex.

Heck, it could be (f)Aegon for all we know!

[SirArthur]

3 hours ago, Dragonsbone said:

It is impossible to disprove something to not have existed. If I say, there is a small invisible teacup that is floating between the orbit of the Earth and Mars, but it is tiny, and also consists of no known matter and is not affected by gravity and does not interact with light, there is no way you can disprove this argument. You can not possibly ever prove that something does not exist. 

So saying, that we have no proof that they have NOT talked, is impossible to disprove. Therefore it is not a valid arguement, since you can say this about anything.

Dude. If Ashara is the sister of Rhaegars best buddy and lady-in-waiting of his wife then there are hints that certainly qualify for talking. Especially because we know they are together at certain events, like the tourney at Harrenhal (or KL).  It is not like I talk about invisible unicorns. 

And if your teacup can be observed by telescope there is still no evidence that it even exists - only a hint with a logic conclusion under the precondition that what you see is what is there. It is the same thing here. 

My argument is logical as long as we assume Rhaegar or Ashara are not shy and hiding persons with no social contacts. It is like my Stannis Littlefinger example. We have no proof of Stannis directly talking to Littlefinger and we can not get any proof because it is not physics where you can measure things if needed. According to your argument the idea that Littlefinger talked to Stannis can never be used in any argument.

And in the context this is bs of the highest order. As if Stannis and Littlefinger or Rhaegar and Ashara played hide and seek all day long just to never talk with each other. I mean wtf. Seriously ? Are you telling me two highborn persons at court with official court functions to the same person can never be used in an argument because there is no direct proof ?  

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

And in the context this is bs of the highest order. As if Stannis and Littlefinger or Rhaegar and Ashara played hide and seek all day long just to never talk with each other. I mean wtf. Seriously ? Are you telling me two highborn persons at court with official court functions to the same person can never be used in an argument because there is no direct proof ?  

There is no direct proof for RLJ either and yet it's accepted as canon, the most likely scenario,  the most popular and likeable solution.  So really, you can build up a back story based on very little from the text so long as it hangs together in some way and seems logical.  It's based on certain assumptions.  They might not be the correct assumptions, so there's a risk.  The problem is that if those assumptions start to look a bit shakey and something else seems just as probable; it's very difficult to get past entrenched thinking.  This has turned into a competition with winners and losers and I don't think it's very useful for discovery.  So SirArthur, carry on as an independent thinker. 

[maudisdottir]

10 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

You asked for evidence they may have spoke.

No, I'm asking for evidence that they even glanced at each other or gave the other the time of day. Yes we know Ashara was part of Princess Elia's retinue, and Arthur and Rhaegar were best friends, but that's as far as Rhaegar and Ashara's connection goes. There is not a single word spoken between them or about the other by either of them (i.e. we never hear Rhaegar speak of Ashara or vice versa), they didn't dance at the Tourney (and why not, if there was an affair? she danced with many others, so you'd think the one who got her pregnant would get a mention) and most importantly, there are no rumours about them. It's not even hinted, not once in five books. Look at how many people gossip about Ned and Ashara (who I don't believe were lovers) and Rhaegar and Lyanna (who I do).

GRRM has had five books to lay the groundwork for Ashara and Rhaegar to be Dany's parents. Yet he has never had a single interaction between them, not even in a POV's thoughts. Instead, he's laid a trail that originally seemed to lead to Ned but soon (IMO) revealed itself to be Brandon.

Why does Barristan lament that she "looked to Stark"? We have Ashara being approached by Brandon and (successfully) persuaded to dance with his shy, plain brother (a testament to Brandon's charm) so we have two "Starks" that she could have potentially looked to, and eventually grieved for. Yet where is her interaction with Rhaegar, the supposed father of her child? There's nothing.

[Ygrain]

8 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

Yet where is her interaction with Rhaegar, the supposed father of her child? There's nothing.

That's it.

There was almost definitely some interaction between her and Rhaegar during her time with Elia. But because GRRm didn't think it necessary to hint at that interaction in any possible way in five books, it means that the interaction hardly went beyond "good morning, my lord Prince/my lady". There might be some  interaction concerning the involvement of the Daynes in the ToJ business and the like, the details of which are yet to be revealed, but on the personal level, indicating that the two were close, nothing.

[AlaskanSandman]

8 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

No, I'm asking for evidence that they even glanced at each other or gave the other the time of day. Yes we know Ashara was part of Princess Elia's retinue, and Arthur and Rhaegar were best friends, but that's as far as Rhaegar and Ashara's connection goes. There is not a single word spoken between them or about the other by either of them (i.e. we never hear Rhaegar speak of Ashara or vice versa), they didn't dance at the Tourney (and why not, if there was an affair? she danced with many others, so you'd think the one who got her pregnant would get a mention) and most importantly, there are no rumours about them. It's not even hinted, not once in five books. Look at how many people gossip about Ned and Ashara (who I don't believe were lovers) and Rhaegar and Lyanna (who I do).

GRRM has had five books to lay the groundwork for Ashara and Rhaegar to be Dany's parents. Yet he has never had a single interaction between them, not even in a POV's thoughts. Instead, he's laid a trail that originally seemed to lead to Ned but soon (IMO) revealed itself to be Brandon.

Why does Barristan lament that she "looked to Stark"? We have Ashara being approached by Brandon and (successfully) persuaded to dance with his shy, plain brother (a testament to Brandon's charm) so we have two "Starks" that she could have potentially looked to, and eventually grieved for. Yet where is her interaction with Rhaegar, the supposed father of her child? There's nothing.

I get what your saying, and i think that if the text actually went that far as to actually have them talking, it would potentially tip too much. As you said though, his best friend was Arthur, her brother and she was part of his wife's retinue. I dont know any one who has a best friend with siblings, that has never spoke with those siblings. Thats more unlikely than them speaking. Its just really strenuous to suggest they didn't actually have verbal contact. 

As to why no rumors as apposed to Ned?

1. Ned came home with a child and a bad cover story. We honestly dont even know what he told Cat. He tells Robert it was Wylla. I assume he told Cat the same thing to keep up the lie, which would suggest Cat is merely going off rumors from the other soldiers, who wouldn't know anything either as they weren't at the Tower of Joy either. So every one is speculating as to who Eddard slept with.

2. Rhaegar was very secretive, and not much is know of him. No one even knows if Rhaegar actually planned to over throw his father. We dont even know who told Aerys that, Varys most likely. No one even knows why he chose Elia Martel. No one knows what drove him to become a knight, or why a sense of doom always clung to him. Did Rhaegar take Lyanna for love, or for prophecy? Rhaegar is a huge mystery. 

Yes, GRRM laid all the ground work i listed above in the prior post. Just with out giving away an actual interaction between them.

And i disagree about Ashara. He laid false clues and half information that never added up. When i first read the books i missed the R+L=J. Even despite the easy logic behind Rhaegar was having sex with her whether it was love or not. I still kept wondering who Jon's mom could be. Yet it never made sense as Eddard is too honorable. I even wanted Jon to be the child of Ashara and Eddard, yet it never added up and still dont. It wasn't untill R+L=J did everything make sense. The whole Jon's mother not leaving a trace of herself behind in Jon even though Jon looks like Lyanna. Eddard's comments about him being a Stark. Catelynn's comments that who ever the mother had been, Ned had loved her fiercely. It all made sense finally. But then left the gaping problem of what was up with Ashara Dayne.

Because the Stark she looked to was not Ned or Brandon, but Lyanna. The woman who just took her place as Rhaegars paramour. That was the dishonor at Harrenhal. Something that Brandon and Ned are not even linked too. Just a vague reference of Ashara turning to Stark. 

Every body is all oohhhhh it was Rape at Harrenhal or it was Ashara hooking up with Ned or Brandon (which i dont see how thats a dishonor but ok). No wonder the t.v. show has so much sex in it. Yall obviously want it lmao 

If you actually look at Lyanna and Rhaegar and except it, then look at what im saying about Ashara. It makes perfect sense.

Specially given Elia's complications birthing, Ashara would have made the ideal candidate for his third child. Up untill Howland interfere's with events and causes Lyanna and Rhaegar to meet. Eddard did indeed have a crush on Ashara as many men did. Howland and the old god's needed this though, so Eddard would think to go to them for help with Jon. Only to discover her with child and her needing to hide her child as well. As Robert loves dead Targ babies, and Eddard knows it. So House Dayne needs a huge favor and why they looked past him killing Arthur. They know what Rhaegar was up to.

And aside from some mention of Brandon being a woman chaser. Everything else makes him sound like a good brother. He's protecting and even helps with brother with the ladies. Nothing to suggest he would act like Joffery and help Ned only to low ball him and steal her away with in the fort night. Thats low.

Ashara being Rhaegar and Elia's paramour and maybe even possible surrogate mother is reasonable and wholly possible based on their Dornish cutoms. 

Ashara getting spurned is a reasonable idea for the dishonor at Harrenhal. 

Who ever told Brandon about Rhaegar taking Lyanna any ways? A spurned and jealous Ashara Dayne would certainly make sense.

Eddard marrying Ashara or having a kid with her then wedding Cat and lying makes him a POS. Eddard cheating on Ashara to impregnate Wylla all while after married to cat, also makes him a POS. Neither of these two seem with in his character. 

Brandon again died by March of 282 at the latest. Far too early to have fathered Dany or Jon. And Allyria is so non important and such a late addition that it would make no sense for the story to go that route after building this mystery since book 1.

[maudisdottir]

4 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I get what your saying, and i think that if the text actually went that far as to actually have them talking, it would potentially tip too much. As you said though, his best friend was Arthur, her brother and she was part of his wife's retinue. I dont know any one who has a best friend with siblings, that has never spoke with those siblings. Thats more unlikely than them speaking. Its just really strenuous to suggest they didn't actually have verbal contact. 

I think you mean "tenuous" and I'm not suggesting they never spoke, just that they never spoke to/spoke of/thought about/interacted in any way with each other on the page, in any of the five books so far released. If Ashara was Dany's mother, surely we would have at least one mention - Cersei might have said something catty about Ashara (being a loose Dornish girl for instance) as she's still bitter about Rhaegar; or Jaime could have hinted that Rhaegar had a preference for purple eyes - something. But nope, nothing. Five books.

4 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Specially given Elia's complications birthing, Ashara would have made the ideal candidate for his third child. Up untill Howland interfere's with events and causes Lyanna and Rhaegar to meet. Eddard did indeed have a crush on Ashara as many men did. Howland and the old god's needed this though, so Eddard would think to go to them for help with Jon. Only to discover her with child and her needing to hide her child as well. As Robert loves dead Targ babies, and Eddard knows it. So House Dayne needs a huge favor and why they looked past him killing Arthur. They know what Rhaegar was up to.

 

4 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Ashara being Rhaegar and Elia's paramour and maybe even possible surrogate mother is reasonable and wholly possible based on their Dornish cutoms. 

 

The first quote is you making stuff up to fit the story, because there's nothing in the books to suggest any of the things I bolded. Why is none of this in any of the FIVE BOOKS so far written?

The second quote is "wholly possible" but again, five books. Nothing.

4 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Because the Stark she looked to was not Ned or Brandon, but Lyanna. The woman who just took her place as Rhaegars paramour. That was the dishonor at Harrenhal. Something that Brandon and Ned are not even linked too. Just a vague reference of Ashara turning to Stark. 

 

I already addressed this earlier, but you dismissed it because you hadn't made the argument in this particular thread - yet - but because I have seen many people use it over the years, I knew it would come up eventually. Firstly, Ashara "looked to" Stark, not turned to. And as I said before, if Ashara looked to Lyanna for help, then what difference would it have made if Barristan had won the tourney? How would that have stopped Ashara "looking to" Lyanna, and why would it matter?

We are given so few clues in the five books so far, and yet people want to ignore what's on the page and write their own fan-fiction. None of these arguments are new, but they're no more convincing now than they were when I first read them years ago. Sorry if I come across as overly snarky, because you're a pretty good-humoured poster in general and I like your enthusiasm.

[Dragonsbone]

17 hours ago, SirArthur said:

Dude. If Ashara is the sister of Rhaegars best buddy and lady-in-waiting of his wife then there are hints that certainly qualify for talking. Especially because we know they are together at certain events, like the tourney at Harrenhal (or KL).  It is not like I talk about invisible unicorns. 

And if your teacup can be observed by telescope there is still no evidence that it even exists - only a hint with a logic conclusion under the precondition that what you see is what is there. It is the same thing here. 

My argument is logical as long as we assume Rhaegar or Ashara are not shy and hiding persons with no social contacts. It is like my Stannis Littlefinger example. We have no proof of Stannis directly talking to Littlefinger and we can not get any proof because it is not physics where you can measure things if needed. According to your argument the idea that Littlefinger talked to Stannis can never be used in any argument.

And in the context this is bs of the highest order. As if Stannis and Littlefinger or Rhaegar and Ashara played hide and seek all day long just to never talk with each other. I mean wtf. Seriously ? Are you telling me two highborn persons at court with official court functions to the same person can never be used in an argument because there is no direct proof ?  

There is a huge difference between saying that Rhaegar and Ashara might have talked to each other and saying that Rhaegar and Ashara have talked to each other since you can not prove that they haven't.

What you basically are saying is that God does exist, since you can not prove it othervise.

No. It is up to you to prove that they have talked. Otherwise it is just a claim. Until now, and of course George might prove it textualy otherwise, we have no line that suggests that the two have talked. Since this is a written Fiction by a guy, who can write what he wants we have to go by text and suggest that they haven't. The books are not real history written down, but fantasy. There is no other conversation that has taken place, except what George has textually written down. And no, Stanis and Littlefinger have not talked to each other, since it is nowhere written. You can not confuse fantasy novellas with real history novellas. The books are not a summary of events. They are the complete events. Nothing but the text exists. There is nothing happening "backstage". The lines of the books are the the whole act. Everything else, is our brain trying to visualise and complete this lines to a familiar countinuity that the brain is used in the real world.

[kissdbyfire]

5 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Up untill Howland interfere's with events and causes Lyanna and Rhaegar to meet.

I agree w/ what @maudisdottir said in her reply, and would like to add that the above makes no sense. Lyanna and Rhaegar simply meeting has nothing at all to do w/ HR turning up.  

[SirArthur]

59 minutes ago, Dragonsbone said:

What you basically are saying is that God does exist, since you can not prove it othervise.

No I am not. You are not understanding your own argument about prooving unproovable things. That is the problem here. The entire argument about God you are refering to works on a different basis and needs a lack of acceptable hints in the first place. This is not about non existing hints. This is about people living at the same place together with strongest social connections possbile (marriage, best friend) or sibling connections. 

Other than a direct text talk to each other there are no stronger connections possible to make any conclusion. Or to turn it around, what do you accept to conclude (Ashara + Rhaegar) ∈  (Ashara + Arthur) U (Ashara + Elia) U (Rhaegar + Elia) U (Rhaegar + Arthur).

As I already said you do not understand you argument and the best possible argument for that is your own comment that I say that god exists. Your conclusion is completely wrong because your argument would say we do not know that if god exists or not exists. You really need to understand the point you are making. 

And of course Ashara and Rhaegar could have possible not talked to each other. But the assumtion that they talked is far more likely to the point where them not talking would actually indicate important story elements. 

 

59 minutes ago, Dragonsbone said:

The books are not a summary of events. They are the complete events. Nothing but the text exists. There is nothing happening "backstage". The lines of the books are the the whole act. Everything else, is our brain trying to visualise and complete this lines to a familiar countinuity that the brain is used in the real world.

I give up. I guess Stannis never talked to Littlefinger because we do not know if there was ever any other council meeting beside the ones we witness. 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

6 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I get what your saying, and i think that if the text actually went that far as to actually have them talking, it would potentially tip too much.

I propose the opposite: if Rhaegar + Ashara were in GRRM's mind, then those two not having any interaction whatsoever in recorded history (i. e. the books) definitely tipped too little.

And I don't believe that GRRM left us that nothing for us to perform the super-Holmesian deduction: "he was friends with her brother, ergo they probably talked, ergo he doubtlessly fucked and abandoned her".

[Dragonsbone]

18 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

As I already said you do not understand you argument and the best possible argument for that is your own comment that I say that god exists. Your conclusion is completely wrong because your argument would say we do not know that if god exists or not exists. You really need to understand the point you are making. 

 

 

I understand my argument pretty good. But thank you for your warnings.

 

21 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

And of course Ashara and Rhaegar could have possible not talked to each other. But the assumtion that they talked is far more likely to the point where them not talking would actually indicate important story elements. 

What you don't seem to understand is the difference between fictive characters and stories and real live events. If those two characters were real historical characters, that George describes in his book, then you would be probably right. The chances that they must have had a conversation are very high. But you can not add likelyhoods to written fictional lines and non existing events that only "happen" (If that is the correct term) in the authors head. 

[Faera]

7 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Because the Stark she looked to was not Ned or Brandon, but Lyanna. The woman who just took her place as Rhaegars paramour. That was the dishonor at Harrenhal. Something that Brandon and Ned are not even linked too. Just a vague reference of Ashara turning to Stark. 

 

This is a massive stretch.

First of all, you are assuming that being Dornish law allows for paramours that it makes sense that Ashara Dayne be that to Rhaegar and Elia, and this was a dishonour to her. Nope, I think being a known mistress of the prince would have already given her a bad reputation, paramour laws or not. Yet, there is no evidence whatsoever that such a relationship ever existed between them. There have been five books and not once has this ever come up as even a possibility. There is no evidence Ashara had any relationship with Rhaegar outside of a professional one as his wife's lady-in-waiting. So, forgive me if I think that your interpretation of this line is wishful thinking.

7 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Specially given Elia's complications birthing, Ashara would have made the ideal candidate for his third child. Up untill Howland interfere's with events and causes Lyanna and Rhaegar to meet. Eddard did indeed have a crush on Ashara as many men did. Howland and the old god's needed this though, so Eddard would think to go to them for help with Jon. Only to discover her with child and her needing to hide her child as well. As Robert loves dead Targ babies, and Eddard knows it. So House Dayne needs a huge favor and why they looked past him killing Arthur. They know what Rhaegar was up to.

3

Why are you dragging poor Howland into it? What did he even do to "make" Lyanna and Rhaegar happen? They would have met at Harrenhall whether Howl was there or not.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

I guess I don't understand why there is all the arguing over whether or not Rhaegar & Ashara spoke. I think it's probably safe to assume they spoke at some point. Do we have any textual evidence they spoke? No, not really. It depends on how you look at it. This is Martin's world not ours so technically nothing happens "off page" so if we are asking "Did Rhaegar & Ashara speak IRL?" Obviously the answer is no as Rhaegar & Ashara are fictional book characters. However we understand that even though this is Martin's make believe world that it actually has an enormous amount of things happen "off page" or before the books. We never witness many characters speak to each other that we know probably did. We don't "witness" Stannis & Robert speak to each other but because they are brothers we know the chances of them never speaking to each other are zero. Granted this isn't the same as Ashara & Rhaegar because we do get Stannis saying things like "Robert didn't give me Storm's End" etc that's let's us know they spoke - we don't get that with Rhaegar & Ashara not because they never spoke but because when they spoke it was of no substance. The same reason we don't get anything on LF & Stannis speaking - Because they never spoke of anything that made any difference. 

My point is whether or not Rhaegar spoke to Ashara doesn't make the theory. I can concede they probably spoke, possibly on multiple occasions but the theory still lacks any evidence. 

All I've read & heard about this theory is "what ifs" "Could haves" & guessing. Most, if not all, that is pointed to as textual evidence is either a HUGE stretch or a made up connection IMO. 

[maudisdottir]

3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I guess I don't understand why there is all the arguing over whether or not Rhaegar & Ashara spoke. I think it's probably safe to assume they spoke at some point. Do we have any textual evidence they spoke? No, not really. It depends on how you look at it. This is Martin's world not ours so technically nothing happens "off page" so if we are asking "Did Rhaegar & Ashara speak IRL?" Obviously the answer is no as Rhaegar & Ashara are fictional book characters. However we understand that even though this is Martin's make believe world that it actually has an enormous amount of things happen "off page" or before the books. We never witness many characters speak to each other that we know probably did. We don't "witness" Stannis & Robert speak to each other but because they are brothers we know the chances of them never speaking to each other are zero. Granted this isn't the same as Ashara & Rhaegar because we do get Stannis saying things like "Robert didn't give me Storm's End" etc that's let's us know they spoke - we don't get that with Rhaegar & Ashara not because they never spoke but because when they spoke it was of no substance. The same reason we don't get anything on LF & Stannis speaking - Because they never spoke of anything that made any difference. 

My point is whether or not Rhaegar spoke to Ashara doesn't make the theory. I can concede they probably spoke, possibly on multiple occasions but the theory still lacks any evidence. 

All I've read & heard about this theory is "what ifs" "Could haves" & guessing. Most, if not all, that is pointed to as textual evidence is either a HUGE stretch or a made up connection IMO. 

I can only speak for myself but I was using "R+A never spoke" as a catch-all to say "George never gave these two characters any interaction whatsoever - they didn't speak, didn't dance together, didn't so much as glance at each other - in any of the five books so far". More importantly, none of the other POV characters ever connects them in their thoughts, which you would think someone might do if these two are the true parents of an important character like Dany.

So personally I'm not really arguing that they never spoke, because that would be ridiculous - obviously they lived in the same household at various times, and the Arthur/Rhaegar friendship allows that they probably had a good relationship. But when they did speak (dance/glance/have sex) it clearly wasn't important enough to make it onto the page, or we would have heard about it by now.

And I know you're not disagreeing with me (lol I think!) but I just wanted to clear that up in case anyone thought I was focussing on "R+A never spoke" too much.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

3 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

And I know you're not disagreeing with me (lol I think!) but I just wanted to clear that up in case anyone thought I was focussing on "R+A never spoke" too much.

Nope not disagreeing at all

[AlaskanSandman]

10 hours ago, Faera said:

This is a massive stretch.

First of all, you are assuming that being Dornish law allows for paramours that it makes sense that Ashara Dayne be that to Rhaegar and Elia, and this was a dishonour to her. Nope, I think being a known mistress of the prince would have already given her a bad reputation, paramour laws or not. Yet, there is no evidence whatsoever that such a relationship ever existed between them. There have been five books and not once has this ever come up as even a possibility. There is no evidence Ashara had any relationship with Rhaegar outside of a professional one as his wife's lady-in-waiting. So, forgive me if I think that your interpretation of this line is wishful thinking.

Why are you dragging poor Howland into it? What did he even do to "make" Lyanna and Rhaegar happen? They would have met at Harrenhall whether Howl was there or not.

Um, Knight of the Laughing Tree??? Only happened cause Howland was bullied.

 

12 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I agree w/ what @maudisdottir said in her reply, and would like to add that the above makes no sense. Lyanna and Rhaegar simply meeting has nothing at all to do w/ HR turning up.  

Same.

Lyanna may have saw Rhaegar on her own, but the circumstance that led to them actually talking? Howland. 

Ashara was not long to court and Rhaegar was secretive living mostly on Dragonstone. Why would any one know?

11 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

I propose the opposite: if Rhaegar + Ashara were in GRRM's mind, then those two not having any interaction whatsoever in recorded history (i. e. the books) definitely tipped too little.

And I don't believe that GRRM left us that nothing for us to perform the super-Holmesian deduction: "he was friends with her brother, ergo they probably talked, ergo he doubtlessly fucked and abandoned her".

Huh? When you dumb it down like that, sure. No. His friendship with Arthur is just enough evidence as discussed, that Ashara and Rhaegar had enough proximity to talk. The dishonor being her discarded for another woman, came along time ago just by simply trying to think what else couldve happened other than the commonly excepted though that Ashara was raped. To which Barristan would have gutted said person. So i seriously doubt it was rape. 

13 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

I think you mean "tenuous" and I'm not suggesting they never spoke, just that they never spoke to/spoke of/thought about/interacted in any way with each other on the page, in any of the five books so far released. If Ashara was Dany's mother, surely we would have at least one mention - Cersei might have said something catty about Ashara (being a loose Dornish girl for instance) as she's still bitter about Rhaegar; or Jaime could have hinted that Rhaegar had a preference for purple eyes - something. But nope, nothing. Five books.

 

The first quote is you making stuff up to fit the story, because there's nothing in the books to suggest any of the things I bolded. Why is none of this in any of the FIVE BOOKS so far written?

The second quote is "wholly possible" but again, five books. Nothing.

I already addressed this earlier, but you dismissed it because you hadn't made the argument in this particular thread - yet - but because I have seen many people use it over the years, I knew it would come up eventually. Firstly, Ashara "looked to" Stark, not turned to. And as I said before, if Ashara looked to Lyanna for help, then what difference would it have made if Barristan had won the tourney? How would that have stopped Ashara "looking to" Lyanna, and why would it matter?

We are given so few clues in the five books so far, and yet people want to ignore what's on the page and write their own fan-fiction. None of these arguments are new, but they're no more convincing now than they were when I first read them years ago. Sorry if I come across as overly snarky, because you're a pretty good-humoured poster in general and I like your enthusiasm.

I never said Lyanna looked to Ashara for help.

And no, i read what you said. Brandon died to soon to father any one of importance and such, didn't. All theories surrounding Brandon sound as reaching to me as Bolton theories.

No worries haha, i think i probably come across the same sometimes  all in good fun

[AlaskanSandman]

7 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I guess I don't understand why there is all the arguing over whether or not Rhaegar & Ashara spoke. I think it's probably safe to assume they spoke at some point. Do we have any textual evidence they spoke? No, not really. It depends on how you look at it. This is Martin's world not ours so technically nothing happens "off page" so if we are asking "Did Rhaegar & Ashara speak IRL?" Obviously the answer is no as Rhaegar & Ashara are fictional book characters. However we understand that even though this is Martin's make believe world that it actually has an enormous amount of things happen "off page" or before the books. We never witness many characters speak to each other that we know probably did. We don't "witness" Stannis & Robert speak to each other but because they are brothers we know the chances of them never speaking to each other are zero. Granted this isn't the same as Ashara & Rhaegar because we do get Stannis saying things like "Robert didn't give me Storm's End" etc that's let's us know they spoke - we don't get that with Rhaegar & Ashara not because they never spoke but because when they spoke it was of no substance. The same reason we don't get anything on LF & Stannis speaking - Because they never spoke of anything that made any difference. 

My point is whether or not Rhaegar spoke to Ashara doesn't make the theory. I can concede they probably spoke, possibly on multiple occasions but the theory still lacks any evidence. 

All I've read & heard about this theory is "what ifs" "Could haves" & guessing. Most, if not all, that is pointed to as textual evidence is either a HUGE stretch or a made up connection IMO. 

Even R+L is What if's and Could haves. What if their banging in the Tower, be it rape or love, Actually produced Jon? Despite the books suggesting it was Eddard's with Wylla, Fisherman's daughter, or Ashara Dayne. Just because you have to assume something doesn't make it wrong. No matter how well people argue their opposing point. 

I can bring up all the right clues all day and people with their own ideas will always shoot them down irregardless of the logic or clues. 

Exp. -   Viserys recalls leaving K.L. at night on what sounds like a smugglers ship. Jamie recalls Rhaella leaving in the morning. Most just chalk this up to error. Viserys was young and must have misremembered. Yet, what if it's not. What if both are recalling different? If so, then we have a body double switch. Right after Rhaegar left K.L. with Elia in K.L. Meaning Ashara, her lady in waiting, could've been there. But this doesn't fit into theories any one else has going, so they're just quick to dismiss it. Never mind that this may be a clue. This places Ashara in proximity with Rhaegar during the time of Dany's conception, but hey, we'll just ignore that.

The fact that Dany see's Rhaegar far more than she sees Aerys, with even seeing her self as Rhaegar. Must just be cause Rhaegar was her only good role model, never mind the fact Dany has never met him. 

I guess though. Since Doran and Oberyn never actually talk in the text, we can just assume that they never did. Despite relation, or association. Or if they did, it must never have been about anything important. Since we never got to see it. 

Probably shouldn't believe that Bloodraven is the Three Eyed Crow. Cause last i checked, it never once says he is. So we shouldn't make any leaps of logic that may make us look silly. 

[AlaskanSandman]

13 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

 

I already addressed this earlier, but you dismissed it because you hadn't made the argument in this particular thread - 

And hey hey lol no, actually i try to leave other threads alone as people are allowed to disagree and have opinions haha

I just like to check out other peoples ideas, cause you never know, they may present something that changes your own mind.

Then i saw your question as to proof of the likely hood that Rhaegar and Ashara even spoke. To which i responded to

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

5 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Even R+L is What if's and Could haves. What if their banging in the Tower, be it rape or love, Actually produced Jon? Despite the books suggesting it was Eddard's with Wylla, Fisherman's daughter, or Ashara Dayne. Just because you have to assume something doesn't make it wrong. No matter how well people argue their opposing point

I don't think because you have to assume something it's wrong. I disagree that R+L is a bunch of what if's though. It's an answer to a question: Who are Jon's parents? & thus far the most satisfactory answer I have seen, where everything fits, nothing is a stretch, & there isn't a bunch of guess work involved is R+L=J 

 

8 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I can bring up all the right clues all day and people with their own ideas will always shoot them down irregardless of the logic or clues

I try very hard not to do this - so if I have I apologize.

 

9 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

 Viserys recalls leaving K.L. at night on what sounds like a smugglers ship. Jamie recalls Rhaella leaving in the morning. Most just chalk this up to error. Viserys was young and must have misremembered. Yet, what if it's not. What if both are recalling different? If so, then we have a body double switch. Right after Rhaegar left K.L. with Elia in K.L. Meaning Ashara, her lady in waiting, could've been there. But this doesn't fit into theories any one else has going, so they're just quick to dismiss it. Never mind that this may be a clue. This places Ashara in proximity with Rhaegar during the time of Dany's conception, but hey, we'll just ignore that.

I think possibly there are some clues to something there. At the very least the fact that we have conflicting stories about when Viserys & co left KL is interesting. I was arguing against anyone other than R&L equalling J not about Dany's parents. 

 

14 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

guess though. Since Doran and Oberyn never actually talk in the text, we can just assume that they never did. Despite relation, or association. Or if they did, it must never have been about anything important. Since we never got to see it. 

Probably shouldn't believe that Bloodraven is the Three Eyed Crow. Cause last i checked, it never once says he is. So we shouldn't make any leaps of logic that may make us look silly. 

Almost the entire post you quoted was saying that they most certainly did talk. 

IMO if there were a romance or sexual encounter between them we would have some indication of it, like we do with Rhaegar & Lyanna.