Lord Varys Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 7 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said: I do believe that the Targs bred with dragons. Gene splicing (gene manipulation in general) and the repercussions of such actions are favorite topic of our author. He titles a section in one of his anthologies as "Hybrids and Horrors". Well, in context that just means that some of the stories in that sections are 'hybrids' in the sense that they don't belong to only one genre. He has a lot of SF/horror hybrids in that section. I don't recall any stories in 'Dreamsongs' really focusing on gene-splicing and eugenics, etc. Freak humans - partially formed by evolution on strange planets, partially products of eugenics and breeding programs - are a background detail in the Thousands World cosmos, but that is a pretty common theme in most (contemporary) science fiction dealing with vast interstellar human empires. 7 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said: Except, The Skin Trade is not a Targaryen story all the way, just the once again theme of incest (forced genetic manipulation) brings the downfall of a dynasty, the idea of the Bloodstone emperor, and fire and such. Actually, 'The Skin Trade' is basically a horror detective story. But the whole werewolf part in there is clearly reminiscent of the Targaryens later on. George always recycles plot elements, themes, even descriptions of people (Dany's body is essentially the protagonist of 'The Glass Flower'). The werewolf theme in itself is reflected by the skinchangers of Westeros - but just as the Targaryens are not were-dragons the wargs are not werewolves. The whole theme was toned down. Although things might change down the road. We are supposed to get more and more magic as things continue. 7 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said: Small details in comparison to the main point of the story. It is basically the history of the Bolton jealousy and animosity of toward the Starks that we get hints of in the ASOAIF series. I mean, Skin Trade (skin changing) is all about a "Reek" and actually trading skins and about a hundred other Bolton clued bits of story. The skinning part of the Bolton plot is certainly a reminiscence. But in the end it is about a guy being somebody he cannot be due to birth defects. It is reminiscent of a lot of relationships in George's stories, especially father-son relationships. The werewolf patriarch could easily enough be Tywin, with Tyrion being the impotent, defective son. 7 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said: I don't think we will get a literal transformation into a dragon. I do think there will be some second-lifeing in a dragon, though. That is a skin trade, afterall. I really don't think dragons are the kind of creatures humans can 'live in'. They are too hot. Too different. Perhaps Jon could do it, due to him being both a Targaryen and a skinchanger, but he would have to be dead (again) to live a second (or rather: third) time in a dragon. But we'll have to see. I really don't like the idea of there being a lot of 'intelligent animals' around, via the second life thing, actually. I think Jon's second life is supposed to be rather unpleasant, due to the animal taking over. In that sense, a human-dragon - who might even end up being restored to his or her proper body - should shed a lot of his or her humanity in the process of it. For dragons human beings are prey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Well, in context that just means that some of the stories in that sections are 'hybrids' in the sense that they don't belong to only one genre. He has a lot of SF/horror hybrids in that section. I don't recall any stories in 'Dreamsongs' really focusing on gene-splicing and eugenics, etc. Freak humans - partially formed by evolution on strange planets, partially products of eugenics and breeding programs - are a background detail in the Thousands World cosmos, but that is a pretty common theme in most (contemporary) science fiction dealing with vast interstellar human empires. True. But you are missing the double meaning of his use of that title. These details are in the stories, including things like “not men”, and Greel, and the other races that have evolved into something that cannot breed with humans anymore, etc. 7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Actually, 'The Skin Trade' is basically a horror detective story. But the whole werewolf part in there is clearly reminiscent of the Targaryens later on. How so? And by that I mean book quotes. There are several Targ/Dany prototypes in a few of his stories (Simon Kress in Sandkings, Steel Angels are a combo R'hollorism/maesters And Dany Bakkalon the Pale Child, Saagael, And Damon Julian in Fevre Dream, etc), but the Targ element in ST is very small. 7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: George always recycles plot elements, themes, even descriptions of people (Dany's body is essentially the protagonist of 'The Glass Flower'). Um, no, not exclusively by any means. Cyrain is in a temporary body of a child-woman. Lyanna is described as a child woman, as are many females in and out of ASOAIF. And this is very bizarre for me to read you saying this as you have vehemently denied this concept when I told you about this in past conversations. I’m glad you are reading the other stories now. 7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: The werewolf theme in itself is reflected by the skinchangers of Westeros - but just as the Targaryens are not were-dragons the wargs are not werewolves. The whole theme was toned down. Although things might change down the road. We are supposed to get more and more magic as things continue. The werewolves in ASOAIF are weir wolves. Same basic meaning. Did you read Skin Trade yet? Then you will remember it even shares the same Bolton trait of being jealous of skinchanging and how they try to copy and covet that talent. I do agree that magic is building, aside from Martin also saying so in interviews, but we can see it building via the main story pov’s. 7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: The skinning part of the Bolton plot is certainly a reminiscence. But in the end it is about a guy being somebody he cannot be due to birth defects. It is reminiscent of a lot of relationships in George's stories, especially father-son relationships. The werewolf patriarch could easily enough be Tywin, with Tyrion being the impotent, defective son. Uh, you totally missed the Reek/Ramsay manipulation. This pretty much tells us who killed the people in Winterfell in ADWD. And then there is the instory fact that incest is associated with murder and corruption due to desiring power. Yes, Targ there, but mostly it is Ramsay’s control over Reek (either one). That werewolf dad is way too cold, smooth talking, controlled and calculating to be Tywin first. He is primarily Rose, but if you read enough of GRRM’s work, his father’s tend to all be a-holes and mothers are negligent or missing. In the end it is the non-inbred “halfbreed” that saves the day, not blood purity. 7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: I really don't think dragons are the kind of creatures humans can 'live in'. They are too hot. Too different. Perhaps Jon could do it, due to him being both a Targaryen and a skinchanger, but he would have to be dead (again) to live a second (or rather: third) time in a dragon. Ok, another repeated theme you keep missing is that the “Jon” character always has a first, fake death, and then he goes on. Sometimes he has a second death, sometimes not, but his legacy and “teachings” always live on. Jon might second life in to something upon his real death in ADOS, but he ain’t dead now. And since Dany is also magical in her ways (maybe from her Blackwood side?), she could also end up second lifeing herself in one of her dragons. We have two books left and all the rules have not been shown to us readers (even though the other books give good potential clues). Dany’s Warmer than usual blood can handle being inside a dragon. Her weird marriage to Drogo allowed her to switch her position and mount the Khal, something that probably has never been done before. And she killed her “sun”, so her fire is now dark and I think she will go into Drogon. Daenerys is the last dragon and she will finally wake the dragon... not Viserys 7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: But we'll have to see. I really don't like the idea of there being a lot of 'intelligent animals' around, via the second life thing, actually. I can sort of agree with this. But if it happens, it will be limited to our two dragons in some way. 7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: I think Jon's second life is supposed to be rather unpleasant, due to the animal taking over. In that sense, a human-dragon - who might even end up being restored to his or her proper body - should shed a lot of his or her humanity in the process of it. For dragons human beings are prey. Jon has Val and Borroq to help him (also happens in the other GRRM books, in addition to the inworld clues). I think the berserk Jon will happen, but will be temporary because his “rebirth” is letting the man be born. Men are not wild children anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 18 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said: True. But you are missing the double meaning of his use of that title. These details are in the stories, including things like “not men”, and Greel, and the other races that have evolved into something that cannot breed with humans anymore, etc. That's what I meant by 'freak humans'. And it is noteworthy that George never has the narrator ever condemn such people. In Dying of the Light Jaan's culture and their practices of treating 'mock humans' (or whatever the term was) as animals to be hunted down is the abominable practice, not the fact that such creatures exist or were created artificially. But this isn't the theme in 'The Skin Trade'. There we have werewolves, and we don't know where they are coming from or why they exist. But we do know that if they don't breed among themselves they gradually lose their werewolf abilities - or become less impressive werewolves. 18 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said: How so? And by that I mean book quotes. There are several Targ/Dany prototypes in a few of his stories (Simon Kress in Sandkings, Steel Angels are a combo R'hollorism/maesters And Dany Bakkalon the Pale Child, Saagael, And Damon Julian in Fevre Dream, etc), but the Targ element in ST is very small. Was Simon the guy tormenting his sandkings? The protagonist? If so, he is just a rich and cruel dude. The man has nothing to do with the Targaryens unless you declare Targaryens are all rich and cruel dudes. Which isn't true. The Steel Angels are more a different creation of George's. They are weirdo cult of religious zealots in an SF setting. I don't recall any real parallels between them and any of the religions from ASoIaF. There are some rather zealous red priests (like Melisandre), but we don't have any really missionary religion in Westeros which spreads their religion by force. The Free Cities mostly practice religious tolerance. Or rather - they no longer exist. The ancient First Men and Andals may very well have dealt with the Children the way the Steel Angels dealt with a certain alien species on a planet (or tried to do). Bakkalon actually exist as a deity in ASoIaF. Or rather - the Pale Child is name-dropped. Saagael is just a clichéd demon-king. 18 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said: Um, no, not exclusively by any means. Cyrain is in a temporary body of a child-woman. Lyanna is described as a child woman, as are many females in and out of ASOAIF. The point was that the body of the sorceress in 'The Glass Flower' literally is Daenerys' body. They are that identical. And she is even more sexualized there than she is in ASoIaF. 18 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said: And this is very bizarre for me to read you saying this as you have vehemently denied this concept when I told you about this in past conversations. I’m glad you are reading the other stories now. I didn't deny that. After all, I didn't read a lot of Martin until recently. But the idea is that it is actually irrelevant for the understanding and interpretation of a novel (series) how often the same author has used similar concepts in various variations in other stories. It is interesting to know stuff like that - and the parallels are very glaring at times - but it is not necessary. 18 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said: The werewolves in ASOAIF are weir wolves. Same basic meaning. Not sure I'm following there. The skinchangers in ASoIaF are not werewolves. They are a different concept, and unlike the werewolves and the Targaryens skinchangers don't come in bloodlines. 18 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said: Did you read Skin Trade yet? Then you will remember it even shares the same Bolton trait of being jealous of skinchanging and how they try to copy and covet that talent. There is no hint that the Boltons in the books are jealous of skinchanging or that their obsession with skinning their enemies has any deeper meaning that being a cruel tradition of torturing and killing people. The double-meaning of 'the skin trade' is very effectively used in the novella, and the Boltons are sort of reminiscent of the plot in that story, but this isn't a direct parallel on the level of the concepts used. The Starks are neither skinchangers nor werewolves, nor are the Boltons obsessed with becoming werewolves/skinchangers by the means of skinning Starks. It would be interesting if that was the concept used there, but the fact is that George very much toned down the concept of the 'magical blood' for the Starks. They don't have 'the blood of the wolf' the same way the Targaryens have 'the blood of the dragon'. 18 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said: Uh, you totally missed the Reek/Ramsay manipulation. This pretty much tells us who killed the people in Winterfell in ADWD. And then there is the instory fact that incest is associated with murder and corruption due to desiring power. Yes, Targ there, but mostly it is Ramsay’s control over Reek (either one). Not sure if I'm following here. 18 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said: That werewolf dad is way too cold, smooth talking, controlled and calculating to be Tywin first. He is primarily Rose, but if you read enough of GRRM’s work, his father’s tend to all be a-holes and mothers are negligent or missing. Roose-Ramsay isn't a properly explored father-son relationship. They are not main characters, nor do we get much insight into them. Roose pretty much doesn't care much about anything. He is pretty devoid of emotion. Tywin is not. And neither is the guy from TST. 18 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said: In the end it is the non-inbred “halfbreed” that saves the day, not blood purity. That's because the guy was the hero of the detective story. He was never interested in keep a werewolf dynasty going. If he cared about rebuilding the power his family once had, and if he intended to ensure his children and grandchildren would be powerful werewolves, too, he would have to choose his wives rather carefully from the aristocratic werewolf stock. Power and magic comes at a price. For the werewolves and the Targaryens that price is that there are about as many misses than there are hits. But the hits usually are worth it if you think about the size and power of the aristocrat werewolf and Rhaegar, Aegon V, or the other great Targaryens in comparison to failures like the non-werewolf or Rhaegel, Aerys II, or Aerion. 18 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said: Ok, another repeated theme you keep missing is that the “Jon” character always has a first, fake death, and then he goes on. Sometimes he has a second death, sometimes not, but his legacy and “teachings” always live on. Jon might second life in to something upon his real death in ADOS, but he ain’t dead now. Sure he is. Very much so. He is as dead as you can be. 18 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said: And since Dany is also magical in her ways (maybe from her Blackwood side?), she could also end up second lifeing herself in one of her dragons. We have no reason to believe that Blackwood blood is magical. Can you name any Blackwood skinchanger/greenseer aside from Bloodraven? No, you can't. We don't know whether skinchanging/greenseeing is a magical talent that's hereditary. ADwD gave us statistics on that thing. That indicates that it is rather arbitrary who is born with the talent to become a skinchanger/greenseer. 18 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said: We have two books left and all the rules have not been shown to us readers (even though the other books give good potential clues). Dany’s Warmer than usual blood can handle being inside a dragon. Her weird marriage to Drogo allowed her to switch her position and mount the Khal, something that probably has never been done before. And she killed her “sun”, so her fire is now dark and I think she will go into Drogon. Daenerys is the last dragon and she will finally wake the dragon... not Viserys Again, there is little point in having intelligent dragons floating around. Having to suffer Jon-Ghost for a time is going to be hard enough already. Thankfully there were no more Bran chapters mostly from Summer's POV - or an entire Varamyr chapter from the point of view of One Eye. 18 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said: Jon has Val and Borroq to help him (also happens in the other GRRM books, in addition to the inworld clues). I think the berserk Jon will happen, but will be temporary because his “rebirth” is letting the man be born. Men are not wild children anymore. They can't help with any of that. If Borroq became his boar nobody could help him, either. Your spirit is stuck in the animal and it will devour you until no humanity is left. They can, perhaps, get his spirit out of Ghost and reunite it with his undead/resurrected body, but that doesn't mean they can erase his memories of how it was to be a wolf, or do anything to make him more human again. We don't know what happens when a skinchanger ends his second life by returning to his first. Could be that he'll become more and more human again over a longer process. Could be that he is stuck in the mindset he was in at the time he was reunited again with his human body. Hell, we don't even know how Varamyr-like Thistle-Varamyr would have been had he succeeded in taking her over. Skinchangers merge with their animals, they don't possess them completely. That is why the nature of the animal also seeps back into the skinchanger even during the first life (and that's the reason why Bran shouldn't spent so much time in Summer, or why all those skinchangers bonding with strange animals become very eccentric overtime as per Varamyr's prologue). There is a reason why beastlings are hated and feared by normals and are ostracized and driven away - not only by the people of the Seven Kingdoms but also by the wildlings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 51 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: That's what I meant by 'freak humans'. And it is noteworthy that George never has the narrator ever condemn such people. In Dying of the Light Jaan's culture and their practices of treating 'mock humans' (or whatever the term was) as animals to be hunted down is the abominable practice, not the fact that such creatures exist or were created artificially. Then you either need to keep reading and/or go back and read what you say you already have, because this is not true. 51 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: But this isn't the theme in 'The Skin Trade'. There we have werewolves, and we don't know where they are coming from or why they exist. But we do know that if they don't breed among themselves they gradually lose their werewolf abilities - or become less impressive werewolves. Well, the theme to the Skin Trade is definitely NOT to keep the bloodline "pure" because only the pure are worthy or deemed necessary to live and thrive, as shown by the "pureborn" being the ones who don't win, but die off. The hero of that story is a mixed up pup... just like the author prefers in his stories. And another thing in this story, as in almost everyone of GRRM's stories, is that history as it is told is not true and not to be trusted. This applies to both protagonists storylines in this story. 51 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Was Simon the guy tormenting his sandkings? The protagonist? If so, he is just a rich and cruel dude. The man has nothing to do with the Targaryens unless you declare Targaryens are all rich and cruel dudes. Which isn't true. You are gleaning right past the most obvious details in this story. My god! 51 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: The Steel Angels are more a different creation of George's. They are weirdo cult of religious zealots in an SF setting. I don't recall any real parallels between them and any of the religions from ASoIaF. There are some rather zealous red priests (like Melisandre), but we don't have any really missionary religion in Westeros which spreads their religion by force. The Free Cities mostly practice religious tolerance. The Steel Angels are a mix of mostly fire worship/R'hollorism, with a smidge of maester. As I said before, Proctor Wyatt is a near identical match to Baelor the Blessed, among the many other comparisons. If you cannot see this with all of his need to pray for answers (stalling), and his "visions" and guidance he gets, and how he comes to worship the statues of Bakkalon with his sword (NOT unlike the Baelor I statue with his sword aimed at Dorne), then I really, truly suggest a read-reread. 51 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Or rather - they no longer exist. The ancient First Men and Andals may very well have dealt with the Children the way the Steel Angels dealt with a certain alien species on a planet (or tried to do). The Jaenshi are a mix of CotF and Free Folk. I would say mostly Free Folk from the Jaenshi perspectives we interact with, while the background Jaenshi are more like the CotF. The Steel Angels do translate to basically men in armor (to simplify it) and this does have Andal leanings, but you are either forgetting or purposely not mentioning the other humans who were on that planet before the Steel Angels arrived that represent the first men in ASOIAF. Arik Nekrol and Jannis Ryther are the "first men" and they work with the Jaenshi, as the ASOAIF first men make a pact and end up working with the CotF. 51 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Bakkalon actually exist as a deity in ASoIaF. Or rather - the Pale Child is name-dropped. Yup. I have mentioned this before. Warriors light fire to Bakkalon. It seems you do not know the real world inspiration for Bakkalon??? I'd suggest you check that out. It will clear up a lot of questions. 51 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Saagael is just a clichéd demon-king. And? That is how the author chose to write Saagael and many of his following Daemons... I mean, demons. 51 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: The point was that the body of the sorceress in 'The Glass Flower' literally is Daenerys' body. They are that identical. And she is even more sexualized there than she is in ASoIaF. Cyrain is a fifty year old woman who has body snatched a young girl, and then moves on to body snatch someone else while using trickery in the 'game of mind". Cyrain, in one scene, has sex at her choosing in a very non-gratuitous manner. Cyrain is in charge of the entire situation. Sex is part of life on all planets. How is Cyrain more sexualized in this rather short, short story? Book quotes. 51 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: I didn't deny that. After all, I didn't read a lot of Martin until recently. But the idea is that it is actually irrelevant for the understanding and interpretation of a novel (series) how often the same author has used similar concepts in various variations in other stories. It is interesting to know stuff like that - and the parallels are very glaring at times - but it is not necessary. I agree it is not necessary, and the details in this convo really apply to you and I at the moment... however, this is the opposite of what you claimed in another thread a few days ago with someone else. Which is it? 51 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Not sure I'm following there. The skinchangers in ASoIaF are not werewolves. It is GRRM's own twist to how the real world werewolves came about to how they would be in this fantasy ASOAIF world. 51 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: They are a different concept, and unlike the werewolves and the Targaryens skinchangers don't come in bloodlines. Where does it say this in the books? The books actually give us information to the contrary. I know you prefer the Targs to be the only magic/special blood family on Planetos, but that is just not true. Remember the gatherings that Shawn attends and the reasons why? 51 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: There is no hint that the Boltons in the books are jealous of skinchanging or that their obsession with skinning their enemies has any deeper meaning that being a cruel tradition of torturing and killing people. Your favoritism is showing. How can you expect anyone to have real conversation with you when all you do is spout your own preference as fact without ever considering another thought? If you can agree with other people that GRRM's older stories could give clues to ASOAIF, especially since they have endings where we can see the results of such actions, then why am I all of the sudden wrong in also believing so? Tell me, what was the point of the flaying of skins and then wearing them in The Skin Trade? The flayed man was the sigil of House Bolton, Theon knew; ages past, certain of their lords had gone so far as to cloak themselves in the skins of dead enemies. A number of Starks had ended thus. Supposedly all that had stopped a thousand years ago, when the Boltons had bent their knees to Winterfell. Or so they say, but old ways die hard, as well I know. The hunting party returned near evenfall with nine dead wolves. Seven were adults, big grey-brown beasts, savage and powerful, their mouths drawn back over long yellow teeth by their dying snarls. But the other two had only been pups. Lord Bolton gave orders for the skins to be sewn into a blanket for his bed. "Cubs still have that soft fur, my lord," one of his men pointed out. "Make you a nice warm pair of gloves." "Every great lord has unruly bannermen who envy him his place," he told her afterward. "My father had the Reynes and Tarbecks, the Tyrells have the Florents, Hoster Tully had Walder Frey. Only strength keeps such men in their place. The moment they smell weakness . . . during the Age of Heroes, the Boltons used to flay the Starks and wear their skins as cloaks." She looked so miserable that Jaime almost found himself wanting to comfort her. The enmity between the Starks and Boltons went back to the Long Night itself, it is claimed. The wars between these two ancient families were legion, and not all ended in victory for House Stark. King Royce Bolton, Second of His Name, is said to have taken and burned Winterfell itself; his namesake and descendant Royce IV (remembered by history as Royce Redarm, for his habit of plunging his arm into the bellies of captive foes to pull out their entrails with his bare hand) did the same three centuries later. Other Red Kings were reputed to wear cloaks made from the skins of Stark princes they had captured and flayed. 51 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: It would be interesting if that was the concept used there, but the fact is that George very much toned down the concept of the 'magical blood' for the Starks. They don't have 'the blood of the wolf' the same way the Targaryens have 'the blood of the dragon'. Correct. The chance that the Starks and other skinchangers have their talents is not the same as the genetic manipulation of the dragons and Targs. It doesn't make it any less "magic", just different. It is all in how you use the magic. Choice. This goes back to the "gathering" idea found on GRRM's books, including what Varamyr mentions in his prologue. Gene spreading, not gene restricting. 51 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: They can't help with any of that. If Borroq became his boar nobody could help him, either. Your spirit is stuck in the animal and it will devour you until no humanity is left. Again, since you and I are in a discussion where we are using GRRM's stories as references, I advise you to keep reading. 51 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: There is a reason why beastlings are hated and feared by normals and are ostracized and driven away - not only by the people of the Seven Kingdoms but also by the wildlings. Fear of the unknown is common. The free folk have good and bad, just like those south of the wall do... which is kind of part of the point of the story- elitism means nothing. However, the difference being that the free folk bring these beastlings together to learn from each other, to control their talents, something the beastling Stark children never got to experience because those south of the wall deny this talent is real (Thanks maesters!!!! )... and then they assimilate back into society, as we see with the many beastlings in the current story. And who knows how it was in days past??? This is why having free folk skinchangers and woods witches around Jon is important right now. To help him gain that control. I am sure there will be some wolfishness in there, probably pretty strong at the start, but he will gain control. Ok. As much as I love our roundabouts, I can already tell this will go nowhere. If I am wrong, feel free to respond with my questions answered. If I am correct, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said: Then you either need to keep reading and/or go back and read what you say you already have, because this is not true. Can you point me to any such stories? I read quite a few of the Thousand Worlds stories by now, and what I get there is this glaring desire of George's characters to see new things, and explore new things, and interact with strange things - without condemning them. One can take the story about the bred soldier who insist on seeing earth as a sign that breeding defective people like him is bad - but it is rather that the way human society is structured and organized at that point in the middle of the wars with the two alien empires is very wrong. 1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said: Well, the theme to the Skin Trade is definitely NOT to keep the bloodline "pure" because only the pure are worthy or deemed necessary to live and thrive, as shown by the "pureborn" being the ones who don't win, but die off. The hero of that story is a mixed up pup... just like the author prefers in his stories. The story isn't about a power struggle or whether it is good or bad to run some sort of werewolf empire. The aristocrat and his twisted son are bad people, sure, but their practices of marrying their own aren't really condemned. In a sense, this is a reference to the aristocratic and racist American elite - who, don't want any unworthy blood in their families to this day. I mean, the whole thing about those people running the city is a nod to that kind of establishment. There are also allusions to Mafia clans, etc. 1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said: And another thing in this story, as in almost everyone of GRRM's stories, is that history as it is told is not true and not to be trusted. This applies to both protagonists storylines in this story. This is not about history. People speculate whether the inbred thing led to the issues of the son, and it is pretty clear that, if true, also led to the fact that the dad is as powerful as a werewolf could possibly be. 1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said: You are gleaning right past the most obvious details in this story. My god! Well, I don't recall the Targaryens ever having little bugs fight wars against each other, throwing strange parties, employing professional exterminators who suck at their job, and getting off at collecting strange animals. 1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said: The Steel Angels are a mix of mostly fire worship/R'hollorism, with a smidge of maester. As I said before, Proctor Wyatt is a near identical match to Baelor the Blessed, among the many other comparisons. If you cannot see this with all of his need to pray for answers (stalling), and his "visions" and guidance he gets, and how he comes to worship the statues of Bakkalon with his sword (NOT unlike the Baelor I statue with his sword aimed at Dorne), then I really, truly suggest a read-reread. These two people have virtually nothing in common. 1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said: The Jaenshi are a mix of CotF and Free Folk. I would say mostly Free Folk from the Jaenshi perspectives we interact with, while the background Jaenshi are more like the CotF. This is a different species. If there is a parallel there then with the Children. But they are much, much more different from humans than Children ever were. The entire point of the story is that the Jaenshi are so different from humans that they not only need their help to eventually deal with people threatening them, but so different that even the methods they (or their gods) use to deal with such threats are something humans cannot really understand. Still, the theme of that story could be a variation of the Children/First Men conflict. One hopes the Children have more mercy with the human beings in Westeros than the (gods of the) Jaenshi had with the Steel Angels... 1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said: The Steel Angels do translate to basically men in armor (to simplify it) and this does have Andal leanings, but you are either forgetting or purposely not mentioning the other humans who were on that planet before the Steel Angels arrived that represent the first men in ASOIAF. Arik Nekrol and Jannis Ryther are the "first men" and they work with the Jaenshi, as the ASOAIF first men make a pact and end up working with the CotF. They feel for them, and have mercy with them, but they are not understanding, too. Even the corrupted young Jaenshi getting angry and wanting to fight back don't understand. That is the point of the story. 1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said: Yup. I have mentioned this before. Warriors light fire to Bakkalon. It seems you do not know the real world inspiration for Bakkalon??? I'd suggest you check that out. It will clear up a lot of questions. Still, Bakkalon has nothing to do with R'hllor. The former is a weird and cruel warrior-child deity. The whole R'hllor religion is basically a ripoff of Zoroastrianism - and identified as such by George. 1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said: And? That is how the author chose to write Saagael and many of his following Daemons... I mean, demons. Oh, come on, Daemon is just a cool name. George is likely to laugh out loud if you ask him whether Daemon Blackfyre or Daemon Targaryen have anything in common with the Saagael chap he invented as a kid. 1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said: Cyrain is a fifty year old woman who has body snatched a young girl, and then moves on to body snatch someone else while using trickery in the 'game of mind". Cyrain, in one scene, has sex at her choosing in a very non-gratuitous manner. Cyrain is in charge of the entire situation. Sex is part of life on all planets. How is Cyrain more sexualized in this rather short, short story? Book quotes. Because she the Dany body is simply nothing but an object the body snatcher woman - and later the cyborg - desire for themselves. She doesn't even feature as a person in there. 1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said: I agree it is not necessary, and the details in this convo really apply to you and I at the moment... however, this is the opposite of what you claimed in another thread a few days ago with someone else. Which is it I never said you have to read other stories to understand the story. It helps to understand where certain plots and characters and descriptions come from, but you cannot presuppose knowledge about those things to interpret things. 1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said: Where does it say this in the books? The books actually give us information to the contrary. I know you prefer the Targs to be the only magic/special blood family on Planetos, but that is just not true. There are individuals who are skinchangers and greenseers, but not any such bloodlines. A skinchanger bloodline would mean that there would be more than one member of the family skinchangers. The Stark children all are skinchangers but there is no indication that this is a singular miracle/accident of history or something that could or did happen because there were other Stark skinchangers in the past. You know, I'd have liked stories about Stark skinchangers and greenseers in TWoIaF. There could have been historical Kings of Winter and Kings in the North with entire direwolf packs around them, doing their bidding, etc. The idea of some Stark warg kings is very alluring. Instead, what we got involved the Starks putting down a Warg King and his allies, the Children of the Forest. I'm not wanting the Targaryens to be super special (in fact, I think there might be some sort of magic in the Durrandon and the Lannister line, too) but the fact remains that they the only ones who are truly magically connected to their special banner animals. 1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said: Remember the gatherings that Shawn attends and the reasons why? Your favoritism is showing. How can you expect anyone to have real conversation with you when all you do is spout your own preference as fact without ever considering another thought? If you can agree with other people that GRRM's older stories could give clues to ASOAIF, especially since they have endings where we can see the results of such actions, then why am I all of the sudden wrong in also believing so? Tell me, what was the point of the flaying of skins and then wearing them in The Skin Trade? I know what the point of that was. And I know that the Boltons skin people, Starks included, too. But the point is that nobody ever says anything about the Boltons skinning Starks and wearing their skin because they want to be skinchangers or direwolves. They just like to skin people and wear their skins. 1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said: Correct. The chance that the Starks and other skinchangers have their talents is not the same as the genetic manipulation of the dragons and Targs. It doesn't make it any less "magic", just different. It is all in how you use the magic. Choice. This goes back to the "gathering" idea found on GRRM's books, including what Varamyr mentions in his prologue. Gene spreading, not gene restricting. It is not even clear that the gift of skinchanging is hereditary. We have no example for a skinchanger who is the child or grandchild, etc. of another skinchanger. Varamyr apparently has no skinchanger relatives and neither has Haggon. And neither is capable of fathering a skinchanger child. 1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said: Fear of the unknown is common. The free folk have good and bad, just like those south of the wall do... which is kind of part of the point of the story- elitism means nothing. However, the difference being that the free folk bring these beastlings together to learn from each other, to control their talents, something the beastling Stark children never got to experience because those south of the wall deny this talent is real (Thanks maesters!!!! )... and then they assimilate back into society, as we see with the many beastlings in the current story. And who knows how it was in days past??? This is why having free folk skinchangers and woods witches around Jon is important right now. To help him gain that control. I am sure there will be some wolfishness in there, probably pretty strong at the start, but he will gain control. The wildlings don't give their beastlings any support. They don't kill them, right, but they sent them away from their homes and families, treating them like outcasts. That's likely not that different from the way such people were/are treated in the Seven Kingdoms. The fact that there are skinchanger gatherings and the like has nothing to do with wildling culture or anything. They are a hated and mistrusted minority and they make due the way they can. Like Jews or Gypsies do in majority societies them, say. And in the end they end up being used by the powerful members of their society. Varamyr and Orell are with Mance because of what they could do, not because they were such great guys. Varamyr is a pretty fucked-up person, but one assumes he would have grown in a different person if his parents had actually treated him like their son, and not like some sort of monster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 Quote One can take the story about the bred soldier who insist on seeing earth as a sign that breeding defective people like him is bad - but it is rather that the way human society is structured and organized at that point in the middle of the wars with the two alien empires is very wrong. The story isn't about a power struggle or whether it is good or bad to run some sort of werewolf empire. The aristocrat and his twisted son are bad people, sure, but their practices of marrying their own aren't really condemned. In a sense, this is a reference to the aristocratic and racist American elite - who, don't want any unworthy blood in their families to this day. I mean, the whole thing about those people running the city is a nod to that kind of establishment. There are also allusions to Mafia clans, etc. One last response because as I said earlier, discussion with you tends to go in circles. What was the cause of Hedlander killing his sister? His twisted mind that caused him to have incest wither and then kill her. Hedlander wasn't even a real wolf, just the Reek of the story to the twisted, F'ed up Steven/Ramsay. Here is a spoon for you: Rogoff was watching her from beneath his tangle of black hair. “He still doesn’t get it,” she said. She turned back to Joe. “Steven is sicker than you think. Something is missing. Too inbred, maybe. Think about it. Anders and Rochmonts, Flambeauxes and Harmons, the four great founding families, all werewolves, marrying each other generation after generation to keep the lines pure, for how many centuries? They kept the lines pure all right. They bred themselves Steven. He didn’t kill those children. Roy Helander saw a wolf carry off his sister, and Steven can’t change into a wolf. He got the bloodlust, he got inhuman strength, he burns at the touch of silver, but that’s all. The last of the purebloods can’t work the change!” “She’s right,” Rogoff said quietly. So despite the incest between the four families, the "pure born" are still dying off, talents fading, etc, and the mongrels live on. In the end, being from a pure bloodline doesn't mean jack all! And this is not the only time that the inbred discussion comes up in this story, especially as being the cause of the social problems, this is just the quote I decided on. Quote This is not about history. People speculate whether the inbred thing led to the issues of the son, and it is pretty clear that, if true, also led to the fact that the dad is as powerful as a werewolf could possibly be. The people don't want to be killed. Johnathon Harmon says so very clearly, the common people have "learned" to not ask questions. So, I guess I give it to you and I agree that this is a Targaryen parallel- bow or burn, which is how Aegon and his sisters got Westeros to "agree" with them. Quote Well, I don't recall the Targaryens ever having little bugs fight wars against each other, throwing strange parties, employing professional exterminators who suck at their job, and getting off at collecting strange animals. These two people have virtually nothing in common. This is a different species. If there is a parallel there then with the Children. But they are much, much more different from humans than Children ever were. The entire point of the story is that the Jaenshi are so different from humans that they not only need their help to eventually deal with people threatening them, but so different that even the methods they (or their gods) use to deal with such threats are something humans cannot really understand. Still, the theme of that story could be a variation of the Children/First Men conflict. One hopes the Children have more mercy with the human beings in Westeros than the (gods of the) Jaenshi had with the Steel Angels... They feel for them, and have mercy with them, but they are not understanding, too. Even the corrupted young Jaenshi getting angry and wanting to fight back don't understand. That is the point of the story. Still, Bakkalon has nothing to do with R'hllor. The former is a weird and cruel warrior-child deity. The whole R'hllor religion is basically a ripoff of Zoroastrianism - and identified as such by George. Oh, come on, Daemon is just a cool name. George is likely to laugh out loud if you ask him whether Daemon Blackfyre or Daemon Targaryen have anything in common with the Saagael chap he invented as a kid. Because she the Dany body is simply nothing but an object the body snatcher woman - and later the cyborg - desire for themselves. She doesn't even feature as a person in there. I never said you have to read other stories to understand the story. It helps to understand where certain plots and characters and descriptions come from, but you cannot presuppose knowledge about those things to interpret things. There are individuals who are skinchangers and greenseers, but not any such bloodlines. A skinchanger bloodline would mean that there would be more than one member of the family skinchangers. The Stark children all are skinchangers but there is no indication that this is a singular miracle/accident of history or something that could or did happen because there were other Stark skinchangers in the past. You know, I'd have liked stories about Stark skinchangers and greenseers in TWoIaF. There could have been historical Kings of Winter and Kings in the North with entire direwolf packs around them, doing their bidding, etc. The idea of some Stark warg kings is very alluring. Instead, what we got involved the Starks putting down a Warg King and his allies, the Children of the Forest. I'm not wanting the Targaryens to be super special (in fact, I think there might be some sort of magic in the Durrandon and the Lannister line, too) but the fact remains that they the only ones who are truly magically connected to their special banner animals. I know what the point of that was. And I know that the Boltons skin people, Starks included, too. But the point is that nobody ever says anything about the Boltons skinning Starks and wearing their skin because they want to be skinchangers or direwolves. They just like to skin people and wear their skins. It is not even clear that the gift of skinchanging is hereditary. We have no example for a skinchanger who is the child or grandchild, etc. of another skinchanger. Varamyr apparently has no skinchanger relatives and neither has Haggon. And neither is capable of fathering a skinchanger child. The wildlings don't give their beastlings any support. They don't kill them, right, but they sent them away from their homes and families, treating them like outcasts. That's likely not that different from the way such people were/are treated in the Seven Kingdoms. The fact that there are skinchanger gatherings and the like has nothing to do with wildling culture or anything. They are a hated and mistrusted minority and they make due the way they can. Like Jews or Gypsies do in majority societies them, say. And in the end they end up being used by the powerful members of their society. Varamyr and Orell are with Mance because of what they could do, not because they were such great guys. Varamyr is a pretty fucked-up person, but one assumes he would have grown in a different person if his parents had actually treated him like their son, and not like some sort of monster. Just wow. If all you got out of Sandkings was a bug fight and this is after you make such claims that Skin Trade is about American specific racism, and not old blood elitism (of which George vents about a lot as had a personal impact on he and his family growing up). Another story about the Haves .vs. the Have-nots. One has the talent and thinks themselves the superior, one does not and is seen as a mongrel and must stay within the Stone City per its "place". I will take George's words regarding his stories as truth, thank you very much. I am still stymied a bit at how much you are missing and/or want to be spelled out for you. So, if you read And Seven Times... then you know that the heart of Bakkalon is the heart of fire... right? So, it is a fire worshipping religion, like zoroastrianiosm of which R'hollorism is based. And what is (Stannis) Melisandre's sigil??? A fiery heart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 My apologies to the OP for going way off topic. It was a case of a small comment being dragged out too far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobity. Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 I fail to see how Valyrians could have bred dragons, when the basics are inconclusive. Considering the scholarly debate and the only determination of a dragon's sex was based on if they laid eggs. Quote “the dwarf was writing down what he recalled concerning the mating habits of dragons, on which subject Barth, Munkun, and Thomax held markedly divergent views.” - A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion lV Dragon sexualtiy was also a much researched topic by Egg, though his obsession was on the hatching problem. Fertility of dragons is a mute point with no dragons. Quote “The last years of Aegon's reign were consumed by a search for ancient lore about the dragon breeding of Valyria, and it was said that Aegon commissioned journeys to places as far away as Asshai-by-the-Shadow with the hopes of finding texts and knowledge that had not been preserved in Westeros.” - The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Aegon V (Perhaps a young maester Marwyn had been sent by Aegon V?) While Ageon V and recent maesters would have been disadvantaged by not having live dragons to observe, Septon Barth’s opportunity to observe dragons would have been limitless, being Hand during the reign of Jaehareys l, the high point of Westerosi dragon population. Quote “As archmaester Glydan notes in his fragmentary history, there is no record that Vermax ever laid so much as a single egg, suggesting the dragon was male. The belief that dragons could change sex at need is erroneous, according to Maester Anson’s Truth, rooted in a misunderstanding of the esoteric metaphor that Barth preferred when discussing the higher mysteries.” - World of Ice and Fire - The North: Winterfell Having such divergent views on a matter that could be reasonably explained by observing dragon sex, leads me to believe that no maester have seen dragons mating. Quote “What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it.” - A Feast For Crows - Samwell lV I believe that Maester Aemon was correct in reinterpreting Septon Barth’s work that dragons are potentially genderless, or could change their genders. This is an excerpt of a larger post I did on the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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