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What would have happened if Margaery had died with Joffrey?


Canon Claude

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4 hours ago, Tygett Greenshield said:

Wine is made of water, ethanol and some acids. All of those are polar liquids. Only way for strangler to dissolve in wine (polar liquid) is for strangler to be polar as well. Lemon cream is mostly made of egg, lemon juice, butter and sugar. Eggs (is a bit polar) and lemon juice are polar while butter isn't for the most part but when you mix all together sugar dissolves which means strangle would as well. Just try it put some salt/sugar in any cream you like and it will dissolve. Even if you argue crystal wouldn't dissolve in eggs you can always put it in lemon juice and than add that to eggs.

In other words: you ignore what the author said, and create theories of your own instead.

4 hours ago, Tygett Greenshield said:

Cressen was planning on getting a seat next to Melisandre and slipping it into her cup. That is why he taught of wine. Later he is forced to change his plan and you cant really offer someone to share a soup or a pie with cream on it. Martin obviously wants us to think poison was in the wine as do all character but one that mentions the pie.

Again, your own twist, not what GRRM per Cressen said. The quote is above.

4 hours ago, Tygett Greenshield said:

Also LF has great motives to kill Tyrion and it is beneficial for him that Joffrey stays the King (LF says he hoped Cersei wouldn't ruin the realm in such a short time and that he needs to addapt, if Joffrey stayed the king Cersei wouldn't go insane, yet it feels like LF needs Joffrey to die at some point but he knew he would due to his character).

The main factor why Cersei rages unchecked is Tywin's death, which LF didn't and couldn't anticipate. If Joffrey is dead, Tommen is king and Tywin his Hand and regent, it gives LF the time he needs.

4 hours ago, Tygett Greenshield said:

Olenna has motive but why on earth does she needs LF to help her in this plot. You think a experienced schemer like her doesn't have strangler at her disposal and many servants that could execute the plan.

A schemer =/=poisoner, that's one thing, and we only see the strangler in the possession of maesters and alchemists of Lys. I doubt very much that Olenna was carrying loads of poisons around with her just in case. Also, you're missing here a crucial point:

4 hours ago, Tygett Greenshield said:

You give neckless to a drunkard so he gives it to a child and than Olenna steals a piece of neckless where the strangler is at and put it inside a kings cup. Why all this when she could just bring a strangler in her sleeve like Cressen did.

One person gives it to another who gives it to another from whom it is taken by yet another - still no idea what the purpose of this seemingly convoluted exchange might be?

...

There is no direct connection between Olenna and the strangler (BTW, you should really bother to read those interviews I linked): "the conclusion that the careful reader draws is that Joffrey was killed by the Queen of Thorns, using poison from Sansa’s hair net, so that if anyone actually did think it was poison, then Sansa would be blamed for it."

Given the reveal caveat, it may well be that Olenna did bring the poison with her and Sansa's hairnet was just a red herring, as a safeguard should anything go wrong, and to make Sansa afraid of getting the blame and thus giving LF one more leverage over her.

4 hours ago, Tygett Greenshield said:

LF or Olenna have no interest to be together in this plot both can execute it alone. You don't add people to the plot unless you need them other ways the can just betray you.

They are not exactly together. LF created the whole situation by having the rumours of Joff's psychopathy reach Olenna's ears. He had his contacts in KL that were able to procure the strangler, Olenna didn't. She needed him to obtain the poison in a way that wouldn't connect her to the crime, and he needed her as his catspaw to execute his own plans without getting his hands dirty. Originally, that plan was to create chaos to spirit away Sansa, plus gain even more power over her. Later on, though, when Sansa is married off to Tyrion (and that is partly LF's doing, to, because she told Dontos she was to marry Willas), the plan needs to be adjusted to get rid of Tyrion, too, but without raising suspicion - because Tyrion is not only the guy who married LF's crush and who pulled LF by the nose the other day, he is also the guy who took over his post as Master of Coin and possessed the wit to find out that LF was robbing the crown. If Tyrion had some suspicious accident (and with Tywin being so touchy about the Lannisetr pride, he might even want to have the corpse of his hated sone examined), someone might actually put two and two together. So, why not use the opportunity that is already there, i.e. Sansa, who had plenty of motive to want Joffrey dead, missing, and implicate Tyrion some more? The jousting dwarves were bound to trigger some very public scandal between Tyrion and Joffrey, and with Tyrion's big mouth, it was a given that he would say something highly inappropriate towards his king. A while later, that king is dead and Tyrion's wife missing - now, even if things didn't go as splendidly as they did, it would still cast a huge suspicion at Tyrion and he definitely wouldn't be able to stay at the court, and then, if an accident happened... So, there is no reason for LF to rid of Tyrion in such a straightforward manner as poisoning when circumstances can do so for him.

BTW, why put the poison in Tyrion's pie at all? Tyrion isn't exactly known for restraint in drinking. Just put it in his cup, it's the "canonic" way of using the poison, and he's bound to drink it sooner rather than later. 

Spoiler

Funny that you say you avoid the show but confuse the hairnet for the necklace, that was show-only.

- Besides, I referred to the Frey poisoning not because I expect it happen in that way, but because it was a rather realistic portrayal of people poisoned at the same time taking a different, albeit short, time to die. Joffrey didn't take long to die, either, it's just that the detailed description of what he did and what happened makes it seem longer.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

In other words: you ignore what the author said, and create theories of your own instead.

In other words: you ignore science, we know Planetos has same physics as our world, it is just like a different planet (animals, plants, seasons ...). But water in our world is polar and water in their world is polar.

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

Again, your own twist, not what GRRM per Cressen said. The quote is above.

He never said it only dissolves in wine which of course would make no sense and make for a very poor poison. Trusting GRRM is same as trusting Littlefinger.

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

The main factor why Cersei rages unchecked is Tywin's death, which LF didn't and couldn't anticipate. If Joffrey is dead, Tommen is king and Tywin his Hand and regent, it gives LF the time he needs.

This just shows LF gains nothing by killing Joffrey. Joffrey or Tommen, Tywin rules. What we can see from his words is he hopes for some stability and than after that he needs realm to be unstable again, we don't know why. Killing Joffrey accomplishes nothing.

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

A schemer =/=poisoner, that's one thing, and we only see the strangler in the possession of maesters and alchemists of Lys. I doubt very much that Olenna was carrying loads of poisons around with her just in case. Also, you're missing here a crucial point:

Poison is the most common weapon of schemers next to "accidents" (like he fell down the stairs, balcony collapsed ...). I am pretty sure Olenna has her collection of poisons with her in KL, which can easily be hidden/destroyed if someone would suspect her. So if you don't see something it doesn't exists? I bet it is not that hard to get strangler if you are rich enough.

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

One person gives it to another who gives it to another from whom it is taken by yet another - still no idea what the purpose of this seemingly convoluted exchange might be?

...

There is no direct connection between Olenna and the strangler (BTW, you should really bother to read those interviews I linked): "the conclusion that the careful reader draws is that Joffrey was killed by the Queen of Thorns, using poison from Sansa’s hair net, so that if anyone actually did think it was poison, then Sansa would be blamed for it."

Given the reveal caveat, it may well be that Olenna did bring the poison with her and Sansa's hairnet was just a red herring, as a safeguard should anything go wrong, and to make Sansa afraid of getting the blame and thus giving LF one more leverage over her.

You are saying it is safer to have 3 people involved who passed the poison to one another of which Littlefinger knows hairnet has poison, Dontos probably also knew or well he realized once Joffrey died. Than if you just bring poison yourself and put it in the cup, as long as no one sees you, you are completely safe, while if you have this stupid chain of people they can betray you. Olenna has no reason to risk being betrayed by Littlefinger since there is no way to connect her with the murder. Sorry this chain just makes no sense, would Olenna if she got caught (someone would see her) say: yeah it is not my fault Littlefinger gave poison to Dontos and Dontos gave it to Sansa and I took it from Sansa, so spare me since I gave you the names of other conspirators.

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

They are not exactly together. LF created the whole situation by having the rumours of Joff's psychopathy reach Olenna's ears. He had his contacts in KL that were able to procure the strangler, Olenna didn't. She needed him to obtain the poison in a way that wouldn't connect her to the crime, and he needed her as his catspaw to execute his own plans without getting his hands dirty. Originally, that plan was to create chaos to spirit away Sansa, plus gain even more power over her. Later on, though, when Sansa is married off to Tyrion (and that is partly LF's doing, to, because she told Dontos she was to marry Willas), the plan needs to be adjusted to get rid of Tyrion, too, but without raising suspicion - because Tyrion is not only the guy who married LF's crush and who pulled LF by the nose the other day, he is also the guy who took over his post as Master of Coin and possessed the wit to find out that LF was robbing the crown. If Tyrion had some suspicious accident (and with Tywin being so touchy about the Lannisetr pride, he might even want to have the corpse of his hated sone examined), someone might actually put two and two together. So, why not use the opportunity that is already there, i.e. Sansa, who had plenty of motive to want Joffrey dead, missing, and implicate Tyrion some more? The jousting dwarves were bound to trigger some very public scandal between Tyrion and Joffrey, and with Tyrion's big mouth, it was a given that he would say something highly inappropriate towards his king. A while later, that king is dead and Tyrion's wife missing - now, even if things didn't go as splendidly as they did, it would still cast a huge suspicion at Tyrion and he definitely wouldn't be able to stay at the court, and then, if an accident happened... So, there is no reason for LF to rid of Tyrion in such a straightforward manner as poisoning when circumstances can do so for him.

BTW, why put the poison in Tyrion's pie at all? Tyrion isn't exactly known for restraint in drinking. Just put it in his cup, it's the "canonic" way of using the poison, and he's bound to drink it sooner rather than later. 

 

Tywin didn't know that LF pinned dagger on Tyrion, Tywin doesn't knows about LF crush on Sansa, after all LF is the reason she married Tyrion, LF gave up the position Tyrion didn't steal it from him, Tywin didn't know Tyrion realized LF was robbing the crown, Tywin doesn't knows how Tyrion tricked LF. Even if there was autopsy there is so many people that want Tyrion dead (commoners, Cersei, Joffrey, all the Vale, North and most of Riverlands, Sandsnakes could blame him for Oberyn's death and they like to use poison, Tyrells that would want to marry Sansa to Willas) and LF is not one to be suspected.

Because usually people choke to death on hard things not liquid, because they get stuck and liquid doesn't. Exactly is a canonic way, if it is canonic way to put poison in wine than if you don't want to be found out don't put it in wine.

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On 10/7/2017 at 6:33 PM, Canon Claude said:

Let’s assume something goes wrong and Margaery also drinks the poisoned wine somehow. Aside from the obvious that she doesn’t marry Tommen and the Reachmen would all want Tyrion dead, what else would be changed regarding Tommen, the role of the Tyrells going forward, and whatever else happens.

The story would be very different 

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33 minutes ago, Tygett Greenshield said:

In other words: you ignore science, we know Planetos has same physics as our world, it is just like a different planet (animals, plants, seasons ...). But water in our world is polar and water in their world is polar.

He never said it only dissolves in wine which of course would make no sense and make for a very poor poison. Trusting GRRM is same as trusting Littlefinger.

Are you even listening to yourself? GRRM's world, GRRM's rules. If he says that dissolving in wine is the way this particular poison is used, then it is the way it is used. GRRM is writing a fantasy story, not a textbook on physics.

33 minutes ago, Tygett Greenshield said:

This just shows LF gains nothing by killing Joffrey. Joffrey or Tommen, Tywin rules. What we can see from his words is he hopes for some stability and than after that he needs realm to be unstable again, we don't know why. Killing Joffrey accomplishes nothing.

And where did I claim that LF needed Joff dead? His death is means, not an end. He participated because he is a sly little bastard who doesn't give two shits about who gets harmed by his machinations, and because he loves how he can pull by their noses all those obnoxious nobles who are looking down on him. 

33 minutes ago, Tygett Greenshield said:

Poison is the most common weapon of schemers next to "accidents" (like he fell down the stairs, balcony collapsed ...). I am pretty sure Olenna has her collection of poisons with her in KL, which can easily be hidden/destroyed if someone would suspect her. So if you don't see something it doesn't exists? I bet it is not that hard to get strangler if you are rich enough.

Nice fanfiction there. Sadly, it lacks any textual support. 

33 minutes ago, Tygett Greenshield said:

You are saying it is safer to have 3 people involved who passed the poison to one another of which Littlefinger knows hairnet has poison, Dontos probably also knew or well he realized once Joffrey died. Than if you just bring poison yourself and put it in the cup, as long as no one sees you, you are completely safe, while if you have this stupid chain of people they can betray you. Olenna has no reason to risk being betrayed by Littlefinger since there is no way to connect her with the murder. Sorry this chain just makes no sense, would Olenna if she got caught (someone would see her) say: yeah it is not my fault Littlefinger gave poison to Dontos and Dontos gave it to Sansa and I took it from Sansa, so spare me since I gave you the names of other conspirators.

As I pointed out above, Olenna couldn't be the one who put the poison in the chalice, so, no, no trace to Olenna. And since you cannot prove that Olenna was in possession of the strangler, or had even known about it, or had the means to obtain it, it's a bit pretimely to claim that passing the poison through a chain of people makes no sense because you don't know how it was obtained  and to what degree Olenna cooperated, or even knew that she was cooperating, with LF.

33 minutes ago, Tygett Greenshield said:

Tywin didn't know that LF pinned dagger on Tyrion, Tywin doesn't knows about LF crush on Sansa, after all LF is the reason she married Tyrion, LF gave up the position Tyrion didn't steal it from him, Tywin didn't know Tyrion realized LF was robbing the crown, Tywin doesn't knows how Tyrion tricked LF. Even if there was autopsy there is so many people that want Tyrion dead (commoners, Cersei, Joffrey, all the Vale, North and most of Riverlands, Sandsnakes could blame him for Oberyn's death and they like to use poison, Tyrells that would want to marry Sansa to Willas) and LF is not one to be suspected.

Sigh. Presume the scenario where Tywin's son was poisoned. Out of the long list of people who might have wanted him dead (discounting the Sandsnakes here because, you know, Oberyn was still alive and kicking at the wedding), Sansa would be seen as the most likely culprit  by everyone except those who actually knew her and could rub two braincells together - she didn't have the guts for it, didn't have the means, and didn't need to wait for the wedding feast because, as his wife, had way more comfortable access to his food and drink in their own chambers. So it begs asking, who else needed to go into such lengths as poison Tyrion at the king's wedding feast when there were thousands of other, more convenient occasions. All it takes is to go through what Tyrion had been doing of late, and, voila!, going through the financial records of none other than LF. You really, really don't need to know everything else that the upstart has done to start suspecting a thing.

The only person whose death required a specific timing at the wedding feast was Joffrey because the Tyrells needed their alliance but without Joff deflowering Margaery (and, curiously, Joffrey is also the one person whose murder the author poises as a moral dilemma), and in order to kill Joff, it really, really couldn't be Tyrion's pie.

 

33 minutes ago, Tygett Greenshield said:

Because usually people choke to death on hard things not liquid, because they get stuck and liquid doesn't. Exactly is a canonic way, if it is canonic way to put poison in wine than if you don't want to be found out don't put it in wine.

I hope that you noticed that at feasts, people tend to both eat and drink, so it is not really beyond reason to think that someone might have had a morsel of food in their mouth when drinking. If you don't like the idea of poison distributed in wine, fine - but write your own story about it and don't insert your assumptions into one written by someone else. 

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22 hours ago, Ygrain said:

All it would take is Olenna creating a 30 second distraction and Margaery in the know. Which she most likely is, given her strange indifference to Joffrey's sadism and an even stranger contrast between her cleverness displayed on several occasions and seeming blindness to the shitstorm that Loras' intervention would cause.

Lol, a 30-second distraction. Lady O has to first get Joffrey to drink first, breaking thousands of years of tradition, then before Margy takes her turn she has to create some kind of commotion for a half-minute, only to have Joffrey drop dead, at which point Lady O turns to Cersei and Tywin and says "whew, it's a good thing that happened or Margaery would be dead, too. Tough luck for you."

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10 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Le sigh.

Cressen no longer recalled the name the Asshai’i gave the leaf, or the Lysene poisoners the crystal. In the Citadel, it was simply called the strangler. Dissolved in wine, it would make the muscles of a man’s throat clench tighter than any fist, shutting off his windpipe. They said a victim’s face turned as purple as the little crystal seed from which his death was grown, but so too did a man choking on a morsel of food.

So here you have a "how to use", from a maester. Don't you think that if the strangler could be dissolved e.g. in a gravy or lemon sauce, the maesters wouldn't mention wine specifically?

Wine may be the preferred method but it is a huge stretch to say that it is the only way. And besides:

Quote

Spitting out flakes of crust, he coughed and helped himself to another fistful. "Dry, though. Needs washing down." Joff took a swallow of wine and coughed again, more violently. "I want to see, kof, see you ride that, kof kof, pig, Uncle. I want..." His words broke up in a fit of coughing.

So there's your wine, right there in Joffrey mouth with the pie and the poison. And if you look carefully, you'll notice that approximately five seconds after he swallows for the first time, putting the poison in contact with his throat, "His words broke up in a fit of coughing", which is another way of saying "the words caught in his throat." Exact same effect, exact same timeline as Cressen. Undeniable.

All the rest of your post is irrelevant. The show is not the book and the book is not the show, and SSMs where Martin is referencing the show, the book and historical precedence can hardly be taken as proof of anything.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Tygett Greenshield said:

snip

Lol, the funniest part about the wine theory, aside from the fact that it is both physically and logistically impossible, is how Lady O comes to trust Littlefinger in this plan. Let's go all the way back to Highgarden:

LF shows up as an envoy of the Iron Throne to broker an alliance between Lannister and Tyrell anchored by the marriage of Margaery to Joffrey. While LF's men are spreading tales of Joffrey's atrocities, LF is assuring the Tyrells that these are all lies and that Joffrey is a fine, noble, upstanding young king and would be a dutiful and loyal husband. So based on his word and his word alone, the Tyrells agree to the match.

Then at some point, LF approaches Lady O and says "guess what, I lied. Joffrey is really a vile, murderous psycho, and now Margaery's life is in imminent danger. But here is what we can do about it..." And then Lady O, gullible fool that she is, never once thinks that she has any reason to mistrust the lying, scheming, backstabbing prick who got Margaery into this mess in the first place, but then continues to trust him right up to the point where he has her and the entire Tyrell family in the throne room, surrounded by Lannister guards, while one of them drops poison into a giant golden chalice that is sitting in plain view of literally a thousand people. Oh, and all the while, the lying, scheming backstabber is safely aboard his ship in the bay ready to split for Braavos at the first sign of trouble.

I would ask wine supporters where they get the idea that Lady O is this blinking stupid, but they have no proof or text for anything else they claim is true so there is no reason for them to provide evidence of this either.

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3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Are you even listening to yourself? GRRM's world, GRRM's rules. If he says that dissolving in wine is the way this particular poison is used, then it is the way it is used. GRRM is writing a fantasy story, not a textbook on physics.

Yes GRRM's world his rules, that is what he is doing. His world is like a planet in our galaxy that we don't know about. Everything in ASoIaF can be explained with science. Yes GRRM is also writing a physics textbook in ASoIaF. GRRM didn't say strangler dissolves in wine, it is what Cressen was thinking at the moment, and it is completely impossible for strangler to dissolve only in wine, unless this is Harry Potter. ASoIaF is modified reality, people are realistic and it represents medieval culture of our world, he is telling a story from our world spiced up with "magic", we know he didn't plan on having dragons in the story at first, but by adding magic he created book more appealing to more readers and his goal is to get the message out to the people.

1. Dragons are animals that are able to breathe fire, but his dragon is different from classic dragons, his dragon has legs and wings and no hands while most classical dragons also have small hands. There is no animal on the planet that has wings and hands (that are not part of wings).

2. White walkers are a different race, that can control other people's minds through telepathy. You may ask how cant undead and white walkers move without eating much, they might have ability to drain heat from the air in order to have more energy that also explains why cold is coming with them.

3. Children of the forest another intelligent race that have strong telepathy ability.

4. Telepathy can be explained like communication between minds in a way that radio's work. And Starks, Sweetrobin ... have genes that allow them to develop telepathic abilities, maybe they are genes from mixing with children of the forest.

5. A lot of other so called "magic" is often just tricks, illusions some people found out.

3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

And where did I claim that LF needed Joff dead? His death is means, not an end. He participated because he is a sly little bastard who doesn't give two shits about who gets harmed by his machinations, and because he loves how he can pull by their noses all those obnoxious nobles who are looking down on him.

If you did or did not it matters not. LF doesn't molest people because he enjoys it he just ignores morality when trying to achieve something, everything is done for achieving his goals. Killing someone just to "pull their noses" and risking being caught is far out of his character. LF has no ego, he wants people to disrespect him because it makes them underestimate him and he can manipulate them without a problem.

3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Nice fanfiction there. Sadly, it lacks any textual support. 

As I pointed out above, Olenna couldn't be the one who put the poison in the chalice, so, no, no trace to Olenna. And since you cannot prove that Olenna was in possession of the strangler, or had even known about it, or had the means to obtain it, it's a bit pretimely to claim that passing the poison through a chain of people makes no sense because you don't know how it was obtained  and to what degree Olenna cooperated, or even knew that she was cooperating, with LF.

Well most of what we post on this forums is fanfiction, it is what we predict from things we read in the books and how feudal society was behaving. And yes usually best schemers made it look like it was an accident (choking) or by poison. From that you can assume a experienced schemer like Olenna had her own stash of poisons. And if there was a small doubt in her whether Joffrey is in fact a monster she would definitely take it to Kingslanding. There were Tyrells sitting around Olenna and the chalice so it doesn't matters who physically put the strangler in wine, they are all team Olenna. Who would want Olenna to prove she is not in possession of a strangler when she wouldn't be suspected at the first place. And it is impossible for someone to prove they don't have something it can always be hidden somewhere. Believe me every noble that had some money could have strangler, I am not saying everyone is walking around with stranglers in their pockets but everyone could obtain it. So Olenna has to prove she doesn't have the strangler as much as any noble in Kingslanding. They are in capital city of Westeros, saying you can't buy strangler in some shady alley is same as saying you cant buy cocaine in New York. To what degree Olenna cooperated, if she did at all and found out she is dead and she doesn't cares if her head will be lonely on a spike. There is more ways to find out how strangler was obtained in a chain than buying it with a hood in the middle of the night in some street of Kingslanding, or being brought from Highgarden where Olenna could have a private alchemist to make poisons for her if she wanted to.

3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Sigh. Presume the scenario where Tywin's son was poisoned. Out of the long list of people who might have wanted him dead (discounting the Sandsnakes here because, you know, Oberyn was still alive and kicking at the wedding), Sansa would be seen as the most likely culprit  by everyone except those who actually knew her and could rub two braincells together - she didn't have the guts for it, didn't have the means, and didn't need to wait for the wedding feast because, as his wife, had way more comfortable access to his food and drink in their own chambers. So it begs asking, who else needed to go into such lengths as poison Tyrion at the king's wedding feast when there were thousands of other, more convenient occasions. All it takes is to go through what Tyrion had been doing of late, and, voila!, going through the financial records of none other than LF. You really, really don't need to know everything else that the upstart has done to start suspecting a thing.

The only person whose death required a specific timing at the wedding feast was Joffrey because the Tyrells needed their alliance but without Joff deflowering Margaery (and, curiously, Joffrey is also the one person whose murder the author poises as a moral dilemma), and in order to kill Joff, it really, really couldn't be Tyrion's pie.

Got a bit confused with Oberyn xD. Tywin's son that Tywin doesn't even wants it to be his son or maybe believes it is Aerys' son. A son that Tywin would throw into the sea if it wasn't for the family purpose (not sure if this is show line only). Sansa is in no way obvious option, everyone knows she is frightened child. But as I said there are far more likely Tyrion killers from Tywin's point of view. You really think he would bother to go through what Tyrion was doing like Ned did for Jon Aryn when he has 7 kingdoms to rule. Tyrion's death would be seen as an accident to the realm and by proclaiming it a murder he would actually make House Lannister less respected not more. Even if he did he would find book for Masters of the Coin that Tyrion would obviously be using if he was Master of the Coin so he wouldn't read it to extend Tyrion did and if he by chance did notice LF was stealing money he would get angry at LF and would think oh LF killed Tyrion because ... then next Master of Coin would be named and he could also find out?

"The following interview with Game of Thrones author George R.R. Martin discusses a major plot point in Sunday’s second episode of season 4." first sentence in the link you sent, this is regarding the show not the books. Didn't really need that good of a timing, he could be killed as soon as betrothal was arranged. You think if he died sooner Magaery Tommen marridge wouldn't happen? You don't need to have Joffrey as a target to have this dilemma as long as most people think Joffrey was the target.

Of course it shouldn't be in Tyrion's pie if you are trying to kill Joffrey but you are trying to kill Tyrion lol?

4 hours ago, Ygrain said:

I hope that you noticed that at feasts, people tend to both eat and drink, so it is not really beyond reason to think that someone might have had a morsel of food in their mouth when drinking. If you don't like the idea of poison distributed in wine, fine - but write your own story about it and don't insert your assumptions into one written by someone else. 

Poison in wine is completely fine but if you are planning something it is better to be put in hard food, yes wine can work 100% fine but why not use it in something better, more convincing. Cressen's reaction to wine and Joffrey's to his is much different and with poison of strangler's caliber even the Mountain would start choking immediately.  

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30 minutes ago, Tygett Greenshield said:

Yes GRRM's world his rules, that is what he is doing. His world is like a planet in our galaxy that we don't know about. Everything in ASoIaF can be explained with science.

That's exactly the opposite of what GRRM says. For example, at Octocon:

Quote

Magic has to be magic - something that violates law of nature. "Unknown" - published between the two World Wars writen by Campbell - a real rationalist with a particular brand of fantasy. Campbell treated magic as science. GRR enjoyed reading them but that approach to magic and the aproach in role playing games is...just science, not magic. Magic has to be more mysterious than that. He wants less Campbell and more Lovecraft. It has to be dark stuff we can't fully comprehend.

ASoIaF is not SF in disguise. It's especially not a Thousand Worlds story in disguise. And even when GRRM was primarily an SF writer rather than a fantasy/horror/superhero/SF writer, he didn't write physics textbooks. Someone like Robert Forward or Greg Egan sometimes writes a story that's about exploring the mathematical consequences of some piece of speculative physics, but GRRM was never doing that kind of super-hard SF, or anything close to it.

Of course there's nothing stopping you from believing that GRRM is completely wrong about what he's doing, and has some kind of subconscious block that prevents him from realizing that he's writing the ultimate hard SF epic and has accidentally done exactly what he hated in all those Unknown magazine stories when he was a kid. But all of the conclusions that you draw based on that belief are irrelevant to anyone who thinks GRRM actually does have at least some vague idea of what he's writing.

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4 hours ago, falcotron said:

That's exactly the opposite of what GRRM says. For example, at Octocon:

ASoIaF is not SF in disguise. It's especially not a Thousand Worlds story in disguise. And even when GRRM was primarily an SF writer rather than a fantasy/horror/superhero/SF writer, he didn't write physics textbooks. Someone like Robert Forward or Greg Egan sometimes writes a story that's about exploring the mathematical consequences of some piece of speculative physics, but GRRM was never doing that kind of super-hard SF, or anything close to it.

Of course there's nothing stopping you from believing that GRRM is completely wrong about what he's doing, and has some kind of subconscious block that prevents him from realizing that he's writing the ultimate hard SF epic and has accidentally done exactly what he hated in all those Unknown magazine stories when he was a kid. But all of the conclusions that you draw based on that belief are irrelevant to anyone who thinks GRRM actually does have at least some vague idea of what he's writing.

There might be a Kierkegaard inference here, or not... :)

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6 hours ago, Tygett Greenshield said:

"The following interview with Game of Thrones author George R.R. Martin discusses a major plot point in Sunday’s second episode of season 4." first sentence in the link you sent, this is regarding the show not the books.

If you look at the actual substance of what GRRM says, he is talking about the book plot.  That's almost invariably the starting point for his discussions of GOT.

The theories that the Purple Wedding wasn't a plot to kill Joffrey all hinge on massive, massive amounts of nitpicking, conjecture, and lack any particular literary reason for existing.  The twist can't be that Littlefinger wanted to kill Tyrion, because the plan he outlines to Sansa also involved killing Tyrion.  The theory is also inconsistent with Littlefinger's knowing that Joffrey was dead before anybody said anything, and it ignores the careful way GRRM sets up the Tyrells' motives in Sansa's early chapters and also uses this to develop Sansa's burgeoning intuition.

Basically, the Joffrey explanation has character and thematic depth, and much more comfortably fits the actual evidence of the narrative.  The Tyrion explanation does not.

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4 hours ago, Colonel Green said:

If you look at the actual substance of what GRRM says, he is talking about the book plot.  That's almost invariably the starting point for his discussions of GOT.

The theories that the Purple Wedding wasn't a plot to kill Joffrey all hinge on massive, massive amounts of nitpicking, conjecture, and lack any particular literary reason for existing.  The twist can't be that Littlefinger wanted to kill Tyrion, because the plan he outlines to Sansa also involved killing Tyrion.  The theory is also inconsistent with Littlefinger's knowing that Joffrey was dead before anybody said anything, and it ignores the careful way GRRM sets up the Tyrells' motives in Sansa's early chapters and also uses this to develop Sansa's burgeoning intuition.

Basically, the Joffrey explanation has character and thematic depth, and much more comfortably fits the actual evidence of the narrative.  The Tyrion explanation does not.

Nitpicking lol, it is only the fact LF has no motive to kill Joffrey, that whole Olenna-LF cooperation makes no sense (especially from Olenna's point of view). LF can simply get a message to Tywin that Olenna is plotting to kill Joffrey and that she/ one of her men is going to poison Joffrey's wine with strangler. Olenna just risks to much when she can without doubt provide poison herself.

If you read carefully LF didn't know how Joffrey died untill Sansa told him, but he knew Joffrey died since bells were ringing and I think they only ring when the King dies.

Quote

Lord Varys: I've always hated the bells. They ring for horror. A dead king, a city under siege...

So LF realizes Joffrey died and then later on Sansa tells him what happened and he makes up this stupid plot. I am not going to quote this entire section since it is in pretty much 2 Sansa chapters but LF never says anything he couldn't know before Sansa reveals it to him. You think it is coincidence it is written in that way?

Show spolier:

Spoiler

Show in seasons 7 is thematically very well done but it makes no sense other ways and has huge plot holes.

 

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1 hour ago, Tygett Greenshield said:

If you read carefully LF didn't know how Joffrey died untill Sansa told him, but he knew Joffrey died since bells were ringing and I think they only ring when the King dies.

Quote

Lord Varys: I've always hated the bells. They ring for horror. A dead king, a city under siege...

Funny thing: you propose a hard rule about the bells ringing only for deaths of kings, and by yourself find a quote with an exception from that supposed rule. I'll give you another:

Quote

"How could you leave him like this? My father was Hand to three kings, as great a man as ever strode the Seven Kingdoms. The bells must ring for him, as they rang for Robert.

So, how, from the sound of the bells only, did Littlefinger deduce that it was Joffrey, not Tywin? Or Cersei, at that?

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1 hour ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Funny thing: you propose a hard rule about the bells ringing only for deaths of kings, and by yourself find a quote with an exception from that supposed rule. I'll give you another:

So, how, from the sound of the bells only, did Littlefinger deduce that it was Joffrey, not Tywin? Or Cersei, at that?

Yeah like Kingslanding is gonna be besieged all of the sudden. Bells rang for king's deaths it is only after Cersei demands them being rang for her father. They weren't rang for Jon Arryn that Robert loved dearly. But that is actually irrelevant since:

Let's use this as source video since it has most of the important quotes.

Sansa actually says they think Tyrion poisoned Joffrey before LF says anything. The only weird thing is when LF says I bet your hairnet was crooked at some point and someone straightened it. At this point he knows Sansa thinks poison was in her hairnet and there might have been. Servant that later servers pie and covers it with lemon cream could take it off her hairnet. Than again LF knows Sansa thinks poison was in the lost piece of hairnet and is looking for someone that could put it in the wine and she reveals Olenna adjusted her hairnet and he quickly came up with this story. This is also some time after the wedding and some details might have come to LF, though I doubt it.

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4 hours ago, Tygett Greenshield said:

If you read carefully LF didn't know how Joffrey died untill Sansa told him, but he knew Joffrey died since bells were ringing and I think they only ring when the King dies.

Not true.  Sansa describes the sights and sounds of the city fading away as they row out into Blackwater Bay, and that is followed by "rowing, rowing, rowing" that indicates considerably more time passes before they ever reach Littlefinger's ship.  Littlefinger could not have heard the bells.

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16 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

Not true.  Sansa describes the sights and sounds of the city fading away as they row out into Blackwater Bay, and that is followed by "rowing, rowing, rowing" that indicates considerably more time passes before they ever reach Littlefinger's ship.  Littlefinger could not have heard the bells.

Irrelevant she tells him he died.

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2 hours ago, Tygett Greenshield said:

Yeah like Kingslanding is gonna be besieged all of the sudden. Bells rang for king's deaths it is only after Cersei demands them being rang for her father. They weren't rang for Jon Arryn that Robert loved dearly. But that is actually irrelevant since:

Let's use this as source video since it has most of the important quotes.

If you think I'm going to listen to entire 22 minutes of Preston Jacobs without being paid (and no, it's not a figure of speech), think again. The exact second, please, if you want me to watch it.

I, however, am not that inconsiderate. Here are, with context, the first words exchanged between Sansa and Littlefinger on that memorable night:

Quote

 

“Ser Lothor, the reward.” Lothor Brune dipped his torch. Three men stepped to the gunwale, raised crossbows, fired. One bolt took Dontos in the chest as he looked up, punching through the left crown on his surcoat. The others ripped into throat and belly. It happened so quickly neither Dontos nor Sansa had time to cry out. When it was done, Lothor Brune tossed the torch down on top of the corpse. The little boat was blazing fiercely as the galley moved away.
“You killed him.” Clutching the rail, Sansa turned away and retched. Had she escaped the Lannisters to tumble into worse?
“My lady,” Littlefinger murmured, “your grief is wasted on such a man as that. He was a sot, and no man’s friend.”
“But he saved me.”
“He sold you for a promise of ten thousand dragons. Your disappearance will make them suspect you in Joffrey’s death."

 

Littlefinger talks of Joffrey's death before Sansa had the opportunity to, her being kinda preoccupied with Ser Dontos' demise.

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12 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

“My lady,” Littlefinger murmured, “your grief is wasted on such a man as that. He was a sot, and no man’s friend.”

If you are talking about this it is obvious he is talking about Ser Dontos. He knew she would get attached to Dontos and would be upset when he kills him, he didn't think she meant Joffrey with "him". sot - fool ... Dontos was a fool, no man's friend ... Dontos was nobody's friend, he was in state where he just wanted money for wine and to get drunk.

Oh no need to watch, it is just support because he has all the important quotes regarding Purple Wedding in the video, you can mute it you don't have to listen.

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