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Exonerating Littlefinger Once And For All (S05E03 TRANSCRIPT)


Iron Mother

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2 hours ago, Megorova said:

For him to die at her command, was a logical outcome of his plotting.

He made two sisters to go against each other - Lysa and Cat, and later Sansa and Arya.

He intentionally planted that letter for Arya to find, he wanted to set her against Sansa. But also he made it known to Sansa, that Arya is her enemy, and she wants to harm her, and thus to stop Arya, Sansa should use Brienne.

LF was the one who gave that dagger to Starks, he also was the one who dragged Arya into Winterfell's politics. He was the one who turned her into active participant of his plans. So it's only fair that to defend herself from LF's further intrigues, and to finally punish him for everything that he did, Sansa used Arya, and the same weapon that LF gave them.

Bassically LF himself put that dagger into Arya's hand.

Your problem is that you're mixing together totally different things.

LF's punishment is a result of his evil deeds. He died because it was time to pay for everything bad he did. And Sansa isn't responsible for his sins. It's just happened so, that she became the one who sentenced him, and her sister the one who executed him. But that also was outcome of his own plotting. Though unfortunately for him, this time, people against whom he was plotting, had on their side an all-knowing being, i.e. Bran the 3ER.

LF was the one who manipulated Sansa to gather people for that trial. Though he thought that the one who will be judged will be Arya, and not him. And he also gave to their family the very same weapon, with which he was executed.

There's a saying - "He that mischief hatches, mischief catches."

He brought his own demise. He dug his own grave.

If you don't like the way he died, blame Little Finger for it - he's the one who planned it. The only deviation from his plan, is that he became victim of it, and not Arya, as he originally plotted. LF was your favourite character, you liked him. He was smart and cunning. So be glad - his death was caused by his own marvelous plan.

But Sansa and her deeds are totally different matter. Sooner or later she will also pay for her own mistakes.

Hear hear Megrova.  Agree with all...except, hasnt she paid?  Think about years of terror, imprisonment and then rape by a monster like Ramsay.  Aside from being flayed like Theon, I can't think what else Martin might do to her except death.  She still has some lessons to learn about ruling, tempering the Cersei/LF patterns of fear/brutality/manipulation - all qualities she learned from them and put into action in the scene -with patterns from Jon inspiring loyalty, adding mercy to justice, etc., but she might get there if she lives long enough. I totally loved the way they juxtaposed the two approaches, both Jon and Sansa making sense, but her seeing a different way to impose justice and rule through Jon than the Cersei Lannister way.  There is no doubt, however, she took a page out of Littlefinger's own book with that judgement scene to hoist him with his own petard. Now I'm off to look up the word petard.

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20 hours ago, MrJay said:

- He saved her from Goff (with Olennas help) 

- He saved her from her jealous aunt. 

- He gave her to someone (he thought) was kind despite having feelings for her. 

- He answerd her call and brought vale forces to win the battle. 

1. You're so wrong about this one.

It was Olenna who wanted to kill Joffrey. So she conspired with LF, and he supplied her with poison, the same as he gave to Lysa to kill Jon Arryn.

That jester gave to Sansa fake necklace. Its crystals were made from compressed powder, like salt crystals. But actually it was poison in hard form. During the wedding, Olenna came to Sansa, and discreetly took off one of the crystals, and put it into Joffrey's goblet.

LF didn't planned to save Sansa, he used her as part of his plan, to get Iron Throne for himself. When he 'saved' her from KL, he made sure that she was unable to get back there - because he revealed to her, that she unknowingly became an accomplice in Joffrey's murder.

That's when he killed that jester, and took off Sansa's necklace. And dropped it on body of that jester. He could have thrown it away in to the sea, and it would've never been found. He could have thrown jester's body into water, to hide his involvement with Joffrey's death. But no, he intentionally left his body there, in the boat drifting near KL, with Sansa's necklace lying on his body. For Lannisters to find all of it, and think that it was Sansa who poisoned Joffrey.

Because people saw that necklace on her neck. She didn't only wore it during that wedding. She was constantly wearing it, since the moment it was given to her by that jester. So people knew by sight, that it was her necklace. And person whose body was found, in a drifting boat, with Sansa's necklace with crystals, made from the same poison, with which Joffrey was killed, is someone who is indebted to Sansa.

She saved him from death, when Joffrey wanted to execute him for being late, and coming drunk. But because of her plea, Joffrey spared him, and instead of killing him, ordered to make him a jester. So LF also used this person, and his connection to Sansa, to give to her necklace with poison, for Olenna to take it during wedding.

After departure from KL, he planned to go to The Vale, kill Lysa, and later use Sansa to get on his side troops of the Vale. And also sell her to Boltons, use her as Trojan horse against Boltons. And either convince Knights of The Vale, to fight against Boltons under pretence of saving Sansa. Or wait and see how will end battle between Stannis and Boltons, and act accordingly. He was planning to seize The Vale thru marriage with Lysa, and then to kill her.

He was planning to marry with Sansa, and thru her seize The North.

He already had support of The Reach, after he helped Olenna to save her dear Margaery from Joffrey. And after he also gave to Olenna compromising evidence against Cersei, about her affair with Lancel Lannister, for Olenna to give that information to High Sparrow. 

He was planning to get Riverlands' support thru Sansa, and by reminding them that he always loved daughter of their Lord, Catelyn Tully. And he also married with her daughter Sansa, who is niece of their current Lord Edmure Tully.

And if I remember correctly (though I may be wrong about this one), it was LF who told to Oberyn Martel that it was actually the Mountain who killed Elia, and her children. There's should be a reason why LF has sent his spy Olyvar, into bed of Oberyn and Sand Mom. So he also planned to influence and manipulate Dorne too.

Thus he had on his side The North, The Vale, Riverlands, and The Reach (and maybe Dorne). Four (or five) kingdoms out of seven. And with their power he was planning to overthrow Lannisters, and sit himself on Iron Throne.

But his great plan was ruined by Jon Snow and Night's King.

Saved her from Joffrey :rolleyes:

2. He intentionally made Lysa jealous. He artificially created situation in which Sansa was in an imminent danger. He came there just in time to save her, and also he had an excuse to kill Lysa. And he also used that situation to again make Sansa to be his accomplice. Because she couldn't tell the truth to lords of The Vale, that her aunt saw them kissing, and that's why she wanted to kill Sansa. LF planned to marry with Lysa, and kill her immidiately after that, since that time when he made her kill Jon Arryn. He planned to use Sansa to get rid of Lysa. She was a tool with which LF drove Lysa into deadly situation, and offed her.

3. He didn't loved Sansa.

I think that he even stopped really loving Catelyn long time ago. Maybe even immediately after she chose Brandon, and not him. People think that LF loved Catelyn, because he himself always told everyone about it, or made people to think so. But his real actions show that he didn't loved her. Not really. He made her husband to be executed. He let her daughter to be mistreated in Red Keep. Even though someone like him, had means and resources to kidnapp her out of there. But he waited to do that, until it became the most benefitual for him. First he used her as a tool, to kill Joffrey, and only then he 'saved' her.

He let Catelyn to be killed during Red Wedding. Do you really think that someone like LF, to whom Lannisters always trusted, and who was part of Small Concil, didn't knew about conspiracy between Lannisters, Frays, and Boltons? He knew.

And he also knew that Ramsay wasn't kind. Do you really believe that 'brothel master' like LF, who knew about Cersei x Lancel Lannister, and about Loras Tyrell x Olyvar, didn't knew about Ramsay's sexual pervertions? Didn't knew that Ramsay was a sadist? Do you really think that LF didn't immediately searched whatever information possible to find about Boltons, the moment they got onto his mental political map, the moment they became involved with Lannisters, and started to plot with them betrayal of Starks? He knew everything about Roose, and about his bastard son, long before he made Sansa part of his plan. Furthermore one of the reasons why he decided to use Sansa, and marry her with Ramsay, is exactly because he knew about Ramsay's true nature. He knew that Ramsay is a monster, thus Sansa won't be able to use on him her womanly charms, and submit him under her control. LF didn't wanted for Sansa to marry with someone who could be swun by her. Also for the same reason he didn't let Brienne to stay by Sansa's side, during their first meeting on the way to Winterfell. He didn't wanted Sansa to have any real power or influence. She was supposed to be damsel in distress, and he was supposed to save her from her misfortunes, and thru this make her indebted to him, and maybe even fall in love with him.

So no, there was no any sacrifices made on his part, when he gave her to Ramsay. It was a cold calculation.

4. This one is especially funny.

Let me remind you this - Robin Arryn agreed to provide help to his cousin Sansa, long before LF arrived to save the day in The Battle of Bastards. Starks were aided help of The Vale not because of LF, but because they were relatives of Vale's Lord.

First LF received Robin's agreement to take Knights under his command, that they would save Sansa from Boltons. Then he went to Sansa, but not in the open, to keep his involvement hiden from her brother Jon. Then he said to Sansa that HE and HIS Knights of The Vale arrived to help her, and only thing she needs to do, is just say to him that she needs him. Then he went away, and in the end manipulated her into calling him, to come and save her brother. Thus she thought that he saved them, and that they are indebted to him. But actually it wasn't true.

I'll explain with a simpler example:

Mother gave candies to her son, and said that those candies are for his younger brother. The boy went to his brother, said that he has candies. And that he can share them with him, but under condition that when the younger borther will have candies next time, he will give them to his older brother. Younger brother agreed. Thus he received from his older brother, candies that were actually his own. Furthermore next time he will have to give his candies to his brother, as a payment for this time. Thus he was fooled twice.

LF gave to Sansa help of Vale's Knights, help that she alredy had a right to get, because of Robin's order. But LF managed to make Sansa be indebted to him, by giving to her what was already hers.

He was a scumbag. And he never did anything that didn't benefited him.

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4 hours ago, Kajjo said:

Honestly, that is too much. However, I am interested to learn about the "abortion" theory. Where was this mentioned? Please provide details!

There is no "abortion" theory. It's never mentioned, there are no details to provide. It's simply an other case of someone who's no longer able to make the difference between real life and a fictional world.

soon Sansa will be reproached with voting Democrat or driving a polluting car…

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9 hours ago, Kajjo said:

Please consider Sansa executing LF for playing Arya and Sansa against each other. Sansa finally realised the sick schemes of LF.

I don't deny that the Ramsay issue might have fueled her revenge, but if she wanted to execute LF for Ramsay only, she could have done so a lot earlier. No, she executed him after realising he wanted to break thre Sansa-Arya bond. That was finally too much to tolerate.

And no, I am not a Sansa fan. She is naive and stupid.

Do you mean sooner as in WAIT until she could squeeze one last help in saving her life, her family, and Winterfell before she had him killed?  Saint Sansa.

People need to decide why EXACTLY Sansa hates Littlefinger.  I see many reasons being vomited out in this thread.  All the things she claimed against him in the Hall before having him murdered, she was complicit in by silence.  She knew about every last thing she was putting him to death for, but she is excused.  People need to learn what is the word COMPLICIT.

I have said in this thread - and you seem like a reasonable person - that Sansa attacked LF after her horror with Ramsey.  She approached him in the tent with Brienne and threatened his life.  What THINGS did she complain about in that tent?  Lysa?  Jon Arryn?  EDDARD STARK?  Betrayal of the Tully sisters?

No.  She hurled one thing after another at him........................... all starting and ending with the word RAMSEY.

Sansa is the one who came up with this false word "SOLD" me to the Boltons.  No one sold her to anything.  I provided the transcript in the original OP to exonerate LF for all things RAMSEY yet everyone keeps bringing in more and more reasons as to why she had LF murdered.  Noe it is her "bond with Arya" that she blames him for? 

I DON'T BUY IT.

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The character of Sansa Stark make perfectly clear to the audience in the scene with her, LF and Brienne in the tent WHY she hated LF.  Prior to marrying Ramsey, Sansa was a baby goat sucking from the teet of LF for everything.  For her salvation, her trust, her very life TWICE.  Then she is threatening LFs life (using Brienne as her phallic instrument).

What changed?

RAMSEY BOLTON.

No one here posting your trash with all your inane reasons can ever do a better job of explaining than the character herself.  Perhaps I should have included that transcript also.  Sansa hates Littlefinger because she blames LF for all things Ramsey.  No FACT is more indisputable. LF is NOT RESPONSIBLE for Ramsey unless you create the illusion he is.............. which is the same as LYING.

All deniers of reality please go to the lobby for assistance.

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9 hours ago, Megorova said:

The only deviation from his plan, is that he became victim of it, and not Arya, as he originally plotted.

Exactly ... which also legitimates the trial and execution as far as LF is concerned. He planned this setting. 

 

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13 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Exactly ... which also legitimates the trial and execution as far as LF is concerned. He planned this setting. 

 

Hardly anyone is posting in this thread for its intended purpose.  This thread is not made for deciding whether LF deserved to die or was he evil or did he commit crimes.  This thread is about why Sansa had LF murdered regardless of the REASONS spewed by Sansa as some proclamation.  Her motivations are false even if LF is guilty of what comes of her mouth to condemn him.  Or anyone else.

Why will no one come out right and SAY why does Sansa hate LF?  No one wants to say it because when they do, all the other reasons melt away and their false proclamations vanish.

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17 minutes ago, Iron Mother said:

Why will no one come out right and SAY why does Sansa hate LF?

Have you read the entire thread? A lot of participants agree that Sansa is angry with LF because of the Ramsay issue. Your case is acknowledged. 

Personally, I insist on adding that Sansa and Arya realised they were being set against each other by LF and Bran contributed some of his knowledge. LF tried to scheme Sansa into executing Arya. Killing her sister! Yes, Sansa hates LF because of the Ramsay issue, but the decision to have the trial and execution came due to LF arranging for the trial and execution -- thinking it would be Arya who would die.

Sansa is just another example of men writing female characters who make the rest of womankind look like weak idiot fools

Well, that's really unfair.... GRRM created so many tough women (Olenna, Cersei, Arya to name just a few), that there simply is some need of a woman that is not that tough. Sanmsa is naive, stupid and spineless. There are weak men and weak woman. No sense in writing fiction with only strong women. A lot of sense in writing fiction that reflects a realistic character mixing of weak and strong, smart and stupid.

Sansa is just another example of men writing female characters who make the rest of womankind look like weak idiot fools

Well, wonderful if there are such women. I agree with you entirely. But you need to accept that there are weak men and women. Not all people around in real life and in fiction will be perfect, tough, strong. There are weak, stupid, naive people in real life and in fiction. 

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One more thing about exonerting LF with regards to the Ramsay issue:

How do you explain the scene with LF having the falcon as gift for Robyn and manipulating Robyn into suggesting to help Sansa by activating his army? LF insists of Sansa being in need of help. How does he know? 

Do you really believe LF thinks Sansa and Ramsay have a lovely marriage? What is the army supposed to do? 

 

 

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26 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Personally, I insist on adding that Sansa and Arya realised they were being set against each other by LF and Bran contributed some of his knowledge. LF tried to scheme Sansa into executing Arya. Killing her sister! Yes, Sansa hates LF because of the Ramsay issue, but the decision to have the trial and execution came due to LF arranging for the trial and execution -- thinking it would be Arya who would die.

I completely recognize the idiotic writers created what you say here.  They twisted the Sansa character into something so abysmal... yet, this thread is about GAME OF THRONES not SONG OF ICE AND FIRE.  Therefore, I am judging the plot and character of Sansa as portrayed in GAME OF THRONES. 

The show writers cleverly planned to let Sansa out of total responsibility for everything, and to eliminate Littlefinger.............. but the fact remains, the character of Sansa HATES LITTLEFINGER FOR RAMSEY BOLTON.  She used Littlefinger until the last drop, when he could be used no longer....... remained complicit in his crimes and gave him no trial as Mistress of Winterfell.  Violated Guest Rite by murdering a man welcomed into her home while knowing his crimes, and pronounced FALSE JUDGMENT upon him (not for crimes he did not commit, but for crimes she was complicit in and did not ever really care about in the first place).

Finally, her vengeance for blaming LF for Ramsey is false and unjustified since he was nor responsible for Ramsey.

ON TOP OF THAT MESS, the show writers included the INCREDIBLY FAKE drama between Arya and Sansa in order to say "LF is at ultimate blame for messing with SISTERHOOD!"

A hill of shit hath hardly been seen even on ABC or USA network let alone HBO.  Then the final astonishing poop pile is to bend the ideas of GRR Martin so harshly as to cause him to purvey THE LAST KINGDOM over GOT S07!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I blame the show writers BUT MORE THAN THEM (since they are earning a paycheck for creating feces) I blame the nameless monikers here in this forum for bleating at these awful and FALSE story plots when REALITY says one thing, they create elaborate stories to be able to continue to love Sansa AS IF she is not just a WEAK CERSEI.

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26 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

One more thing about exonerting LF with regards to the Ramsay issue:

How do you explain the scene with LF having the falcon as gift for Robyn and manipulating Robyn into suggesting to help Sansa by activating his army? LF insists of Sansa being in need of help. How does he know? 

Yes, and when Yohn Royce casts a doubt on how Sansa finds herself in the hands of the Boltons, Littlefinger clearly threatens him…

It's D&D's fault, not Sansa's, if Littlefinger acts like a creepy idiot in Winterfell…

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1 hour ago, Nowy Tends said:

It's D&D's fault, not Sansa's

You are approaching the truth.  However, be real and recognize we are watching the STORY unfold, we have to take the STORY AS IT IS TOLD.  We never blame the story for being the story.  Or else, we would watch something else.  Read something else.

FIRST, the show writers are idiots.  Is it then any wonder Sansa is an idiot in concordance with what they have made?

But in the end, we cannot drag the "authors" (this is not Martin) into the scene and blame them.  We are reflecting on the story.  And in that story, there is reality and unreality.  A whole lot of unreality is being spewed about the subject of SANSA AND LITTLEFINGER.  I have read as many half-truths, outright lies and EXTENDED tales to explain away THE CHARACTER OF SANSA and her MOTIVATIONS for how she feels about Littlefinger. 

PEOPLE SIMPLY MAKING SHIT UP. 

Will this stop finally?  Or will we go SO FAR as to drag the show writers out from behind the curtain so that the character of Sansa Stark can remain a purified noble woman of piety and goodness and love?  Are we going that far now?  The fictional character of Sansa Stark is SO important to us we will crucify the SHOW WRITERS instead of taking the show at face value?

This thread is about LITTLEFINGER IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THE PROCLIVITIES OF RAMSEY BOLTON.

If that topic does not interest you, there are SO many other threads you could be in right now.

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7 hours ago, Nowy Tends said:

There is no "abortion" theory.

This thread is not about that.  However, who decides what theory exists?  You do?  I personally (me, myself) interpret the words and actions of certain characters and things portrayed in the show Game of Thrones to mean Sansa was pregnant and drank moon tea to "make your (Ramsey) line and house disappear".  Some people consider abortion a sin.  I am not one who does.  I included that in her CATALOGUE of sins because somehow Sansa Stark has been elevated to virtual VIRGIN MARY by many people who can see no wrong in her and seem to want to battle until the end of time to keep her at that level of pristine "greatness". 

If I was saying all this about Cersei, there would be simultaneous yawns.  But people do not see Sansa and Cersei in the same league.  They are not ABLE to distinguish traits and characteristics and through a dull mind must cast a stone for GOOD OR EVIL.  Yet, no one and nothing is good or evil.  Sansa has much in common with Cersei, I personally think she is worse than Cersei.  Cersei knows what she is, she admits freely what she is doing, knows what she wants, does anything to get it.  Sansa commits evil, lies and kills while believing (and casting a spell on her followers) that she is CLEAN and HOLY with a righteous hand, completely deserving of good things and that she should be exempt from the consequences of her bad decisions and that murdering people in revenge while being complicit in those same crimes is OK.  She doesn't even consider it. 

Cersei is the badass bitch that made me smile when she blew up the sept for the sheer greatness of her singular vision of vengeance.  Sansa is utterly weak and cowardly in her methods of squeaky revenge whilst trying to make her own mind believe she is doing the right thing.

Thank the gods Sansa has all of YOU to sustain her in these matters.

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1 hour ago, Iron Mother said:

PEOPLE SIMPLY MAKING SHIT UP. 

You mean like you've been doing this entire thread?
You've made this claim several times: Littlefinger is not responsible for Ramsey.  Sansa hates him and murdered him FOR ALL THINGS RAMSEY when he was not responsible for Ramsey.

But you still haven't actually proved this to be the case, you've just been shouting at anyone who disagrees with you. 
The show has given us many reasons for why Sansa would want LF killed, and while it's true that she probably hated him for "manipulating" her into marrying Ramsay, this was ultimately nothing that Sansa had LF executioned for.

Quote

If that topic does not interest you, there are SO many other threads you could be in right now.


But your irrational hatred of Sansa and your toxic attitude towards so many posters in this thread is ...captivating. It's like a car crash; It's awful, but I just can't look away.
Also, no need to have me "escorted to the lobby", I like it justfine where I currently am. :) 

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5 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

But your irrational hatred of Sansa and your toxic attitude towards so many posters in this thread is ...captivating. It's like a car crash; It's awful, but I just can't look away.
Also, no need to have me "escorted to the lobby", I like it justfine where I currently am. :) 

:D

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1 hour ago, Iron Mother said:

This thread is not about that.  However, who decides what theory exists?  You do?  I personally (me, myself) interpret the words and actions of certain characters and things portrayed in the show Game of Thrones to mean Sansa was pregnant and drank moon tea to "make your (Ramsey) line and house disappear".  Some people consider abortion a sin.  I am not one who does.  I included that in her CATALOGUE of sins because somehow Sansa Stark has been elevated to virtual VIRGIN MARY by many people who can see no wrong in her and seem to want to battle until the end of time to keep her at that level of pristine "greatness". 

If I was saying all this about Cersei, there would be simultaneous yawns.  But people do not see Sansa and Cersei in the same league.  They are not ABLE to distinguish traits and characteristics and through a dull mind must cast a stone for GOOD OR EVIL.  Yet, no one and nothing is good or evil.  Sansa has much in common with Cersei, I personally think she is worse than Cersei.  Cersei knows what she is, she admits freely what she is doing, knows what she wants, does anything to get it.  Sansa commits evil, lies and kills while believing (and casting a spell on her followers) that she is CLEAN and HOLY with a righteous hand, completely deserving of good things and that she should be exempt from the consequences of her bad decisions and that murdering people in revenge while being complicit in those same crimes is OK.  She doesn't even consider it. 

Cersei is the badass bitch that made me smile when she blew up the sept for the sheer greatness of her singular vision of vengeance.  Sansa is utterly weak and cowardly in her methods of squeaky revenge whilst trying to make her own mind believe she is doing the right thing.

Thank the gods Sansa has all of YOU to sustain her in these matters.

Sansa never actually tried mass murder by blowing up a sept.

"You're a smooth smoothie, you know."

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1 hour ago, MinscS2 said:

But your irrational hatred of Sansa and your toxic attitude towards so many posters in this thread is ...captivating. It's like a car crash; It's awful, but I just can't look away.

Also, no need to have me "escorted to the lobby", I like it justfine where I currently am. :) 

:P:P

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2 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

This thread is not about that.  However, who decides what theory exists?  You do?  I personally (me, myself) interpret the words and actions of certain characters and things portrayed in the show Game of Thrones to mean Sansa was pregnant and drank moon tea to "make your (Ramsey) line and house disappear".

Moon tea prepared by who? Look what happened to the old servant who tried to help Sansa…

My theory is Ramsey is impotent. He rapes Sansa, yes, but not with his penis. Prove me wrong :ph34r:

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