Where does "Benjen helped Lyanna elope" bullshit come from?

[Reekazoid]

20 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

I don't know how much Benjen knew about Lyanna and Rhaegar, but I'm assuming he knew just enough to come to his own conclusions.

 This. Benjen was a smart guy. He didn't get his position as First Ranger  from his rugged good looks and family name.  You're right, I think.  GODS I'd love a Benjen PoV.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

@Reekazoid, that's fair enough. 

[Lady Barbrey]

13 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

Is there a chance Lyanna and Benjen were fostered out like Ned and Brandon had been? I know it's not something that's really mentioned with girls but I can think of 4 instances with the Princess of Dorne, Joanna Lannister, Rhaelle Targaryen and Arianne who was an almost case. I know that two of these were done/near done because of marriage. If Lyanna was fostered out to some house in the riverlands, then it changes a lot of things, I think.

I very honestly don't remember this line at all, so if you could point me, I'd appreciate it!

Could his guilt come from something else? A little baby, barely a few months old has arrived at Winterfell and he has already lost both his parents. And he is being passed off as a bastard and this boy's life will always be steeped in lies because his true identity is danger to his very life. If Ned isn't planning to tell Jon the truth ever, then Jon will live his whole life thinking he's a bastard, not knowing who his mother is or believing that she didn't love him enough to keep him. That's not just guilt, that's also painful as hell and very conflicting. Jon grew up with the story that Rhaegar had kidnapped Lyanna and raped her. That's a lot of damage done if and when he finds out the truth. 

When Jon tells Ben he wants to join the NW and Ben starts arguing against it, Jon's reply is that Maester Luwin says that bastards grow up faster than other children (yay, westerosi science, I guess), Benjen doesn't seem happy with what Maester Luwin said. 

I don't know how much Benjen knew about Lyanna and Rhaegar, but I'm assuming he knew just enough to come to his own conclusions. I'm not sure that he helped anything, especially since those two don't even seem to be together when Lyanna vanishes. And I always assumed that Rickard being summoned to King's Landing meant that he received a raven at Winterfell before he was set to travel, and he might even have received a heads up from Hoster Tully that Brandon was headed to King's Landing and we know he was pissed with Brandon's actions.

I just tried to search on the searchable asoiaf but its not working for my tablet so i cant give you an exact place.  It's in one of the passages where Ned is ruminating on his own guilt (for unexplained reasons at that point) and says broadly no one was innocent even Benjen. He might have been referencing Harrenhal but who knows? Im not mistaken though, it really struck me at the time.

Re timeline, in Woiaf, I think it gives a more exact time when Rhaegar, Arthur etc. set out to visit the Riverlands for no apparent reason despite terrible weather. This is when the elopement would have happened.

I too believed Lyanna was abducted/eloped outside Harrenhal not Riverrun but without the searchable working I cant find the reference.  One of the problems with reading the books beginning twenty years ago, even my rereads were years ago now!

At one point, Lyanna is mentioned as being a lady in waiting. I guess Ive always assumed she spent some if not most of the time between the tourney and the elopement in Kings Landing. Using her brother's wedding as an excuse to leave, she makes prior plans with Rhaegar and sets off to Harrenhal where she elopes with him?

Aargh.  Thats the trouble and the beauty of the series, cant be sure of even the simplest of timelines!

[purple-eyes]

somewhere in APP said Benjen joined watch after Robb was born (thus Ned has an heir). 

I tend to believe benjen joined watch since many Stark sons joined watch, almost like a tradition. 

Of course if he knew Lyanna eloped for love, he would feel very guilty that he did not manage to inform his dad and Brandon that Lyanna ran happily for a honeymoon. 

[Ygrain]

With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands. Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and carried her off, lighting a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved—and half the realm besides.

4 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

I just tried to search on the searchable asoiaf but its not working for my tablet so i cant give you an exact place.  It's in one of the passages where Ned is ruminating on his own guilt (for unexplained reasons at that point) and says broadly no one was innocent even Benjen. He might have been referencing Harrenhal but who knows? Im not mistaken though, it really struck me at the time.

I don't recall such a line existing, nor people discussing it in all my years with the forums, and a word search of AGOT for Benjen, guilt or innocent doesn't provide any such result. Sorry.

4 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Re timeline, in Woiaf, I think it gives a more exact time when Rhaegar, Arthur etc. set out to visit the Riverlands for no apparent reason despite terrible weather. This is when the elopement would have happened.

The wording is ambigous, though - "a journey that would ultimately lead him back to Riverlands."  It is not clear if Riverlands was the original destination, or if he went to Roverlands from elsewhere.  

4 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

At one point, Lyanna is mentioned as being a lady in waiting. I guess Ive always assumed she spent some if not most of the time between the tourney and the elopement in Kings Landing. Using her brother's wedding as an excuse to leave, she makes prior plans with Rhaegar and sets off to Harrenhal where she elopes with him?

I'm afraid you're confusing Lyanna with Ashara's Dayne, it was Ashara who was a lady in waiting, to Elia. Lyanna's whereabouts between the tourney and her disappearance is not known. It has been speculated that she may have stayed at HH with the young Whent daughter, to get better manners as befitting of her future role as Lady of Stormlands, and it would give her better opportunity to communicate with Rhaegar than at Winterfell. - Just FYI, the Harrenhall speculation predates the World Book entry.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

35 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

It has been speculated that she may have stayed at HH with the young Whent daughter, to get better manners as befitting of her future role as Lady of Stormlands, and it would give her better opportunity to communicate with Rhaegar than at Winterfell. - Just FYI, the Harrenhall speculation predates the World Book entry.

I get that this is pre World book, but how did people come to the conclusion that Lyanna's manners weren't good enough that she needed to be schooled at the age of 15 (some two years after she was engaged to Robert) to be a proper Lady of Storm's End? She's the daughter of the Warden of the North. She would have had the proper education as befit her station and marrying a lord and running the household. (also, OP, it's not directed towards you, I'm just a big baffled by this).

 

[Clegane'sPup]

In the below quote from a book released in 2014 the false spring lasted less than two moon turns which I equate to less than two months. The moon turn thing can be debated, argued and nitpicked to death.

In the below quote it says Rhaegar & half a dozen friends with the coming of the new year were traveling around and fell upon Lyanna not 10 leagues (approximately 30 miles) from Harrenhal. “Fell upon” is also open to interpretation.

Gyldayn’s history takes precedence over Yondel’s. Gyldayn’s history is another book in the making.

 

The World of Ice and Fire - The Fall of the Dragons: The Year of the False Spring

The False Spring of 281 AC lasted less than two turns. As the year drew to a close, winter returned to Westeros with a vengeance. On the last day of the year, snow began to fall upon King's Landing, and a crust of ice formed atop the Blackwater Rush. The snowfall continued off and on for the best part of a fortnight, by which time the Blackwater was hard frozen, and icicles draped the roofs and gutters of every tower in the city.

As cold winds hammered the city, King Aerys II turned to his pyromancers, charging them to drive the winter off with their magics. Huge green fires burned along the walls of the Red Keep for a moon's turn. Prince Rhaegar was not in the city to observe them, however. Nor could he be found in Dragonstone with Princess Elia and their young son, Aegon. With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands. Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and carried her off, lighting a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved—and half the realm besides.      But that tale is too well-known to warrant repeating here.  end

 

Because I have access to a search site I was able to find that above information. I do not purchase extra ASOIAF material. I go to a library and check the book out, read it and return it. The complimentary material is interesting and fun, but the ASOIAF books/novels/saga must stand on its own if Martin wants to achieve acclaim for his work. Merely my opinion. Everyone has one.

Where was Brandon when he received word of Lyanna’s [fill in the blank]?  I pulled the below information from asoiaf westeros wiki which tells me Brandon left RR to join with his father who was coming down from the north. The first citation being the app (which appears to be a 2012 release) and the second citation being CoK chapter 55 Cat VII.

 

From Riverrun, Brandon left to join his father's wedding party, coming down from the north.^[22] They were on their way again back to Riverrun for the wedding when word reached Brandon of Lyanna's supposed abduction by Prince Rhaegar Targaryen.^[23]

George R. R. Martin's A World of Ice and Fire, Catelyn Tully.

 

It looks like after the tourney at Harrenhal Brandon returned to River Run. Eddard returned to Eyrie. Lyanna stayed at Harrenhal. No mention of where Benjen or Howland went.

With that stuff in mind I can understand why people could/world think that Benjen may have information about Lyanna’s [fill in the blank]. Especially since Benjen disappeared. Then again maybe Benjen’s character was merely a convince character helping Jon to get to the Wall.

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

I get that this is pre World book, but how did people come to the conclusion that Lyanna's manners weren't good enough that she needed to be schooled at the age of 15 (some two years after she was engaged to Robert) to be a proper Lady of Storm's End? She's the daughter of the Warden of the North. She would have had the proper education as befit her station and marrying a lord and running the household. (also, OP, it's not directed towards you, I'm just a big baffled by this).

Well, Arya was a daughter of the Warden of the North, too, and yet her parents had the feeling that her manners were rather lacking. And Lyanna had neither a proper Southern Lady mother, nor a septa, nor a proper Lady elder sister, so who would pass the ladylike manners to her? She was a tomboy and her feats considerably outmatched Arya's; isn't she even described in the World Book as "boyish"? Acquiring more lady-like manners would definitely seem desirable by many.

[Lady Barbrey]

6 hours ago, Ygrain said:

With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands. Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and carried her off, lighting a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved—and half the realm besides.

I don't recall such a line existing, nor people discussing it in all my years with the forums, and a word search of AGOT for Benjen, guilt or innocent doesn't provide any such result. Sorry.

The wording is ambigous, though - "a journey that would ultimately lead him back to Riverlands."  It is not clear if Riverlands was the original destination, or if he went to Roverlands from elsewhere.  

I'm afraid you're confusing Lyanna with Ashara's Dayne, it was Ashara who was a lady in waiting, to Elia. Lyanna's whereabouts between the tourney and her disappearance is not known. It has been speculated that she may have stayed at HH with the young Whent daughter, to get better manners as befitting of her future role as Lady of Stormlands, and it would give her better opportunity to communicate with Rhaegar than at Winterfell. - Just FYI, the Harrenhall speculation predates the World Book entry.

Yeah maybe confusing Ashara and Lyanna, but not about the guilt and not about Harrenhal.  Regarding the World Book, one of the reasons for its existence is to fill in gaps, however tenuous, so I take Rhaegar's meeting with Lyanna not ten miles from Harrenhal as probably accurate or close enough.

[WSmith84]

23 minutes ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Yeah maybe confusing Ashara and Lyanna, but not about the guilt and not about Harrenhal.  Regarding the World Book, one of the reasons for its existence is to fill in gaps, however tenuous, so I take Rhaegar's meeting with Lyanna not ten miles from Harrenhal as probably accurate or close enough.

You're going to have to give us a quote, because I just went through every search result (from AGOT to ADWD) for 'Benjen' and not one of them have to do with guilt, innocence or some such. There's also no mention of it if you search for 'brother' in Ned's PoV. In fact, Ned scarcely thinks or talks about Benjen at all. Sorry, I think you're mistaken on this one.

[purple-eyes]

4 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

I just tried to search on the searchable asoiaf but its not working for my tablet so i cant give you an exact place.  It's in one of the passages where Ned is ruminating on his own guilt (for unexplained reasons at that point) and says broadly no one was innocent even Benjen. He might have been referencing Harrenhal but who knows? Im not mistaken though, it really struck me at the time.

Re timeline, in Woiaf, I think it gives a more exact time when Rhaegar, Arthur etc. set out to visit the Riverlands for no apparent reason despite terrible weather. This is when the elopement would have happened.

I too believed Lyanna was abducted/eloped outside Harrenhal not Riverrun but without the searchable working I cant find the reference.  One of the problems with reading the books beginning twenty years ago, even my rereads were years ago now!

At one point, Lyanna is mentioned as being a lady in waiting. I guess Ive always assumed she spent some if not most of the time between the tourney and the elopement in Kings Landing. Using her brother's wedding as an excuse to leave, she makes prior plans with Rhaegar and sets off to Harrenhal where she elopes with him?

Aargh.  Thats the trouble and the beauty of the series, cant be sure of even the simplest of timelines!

Lyanna was never mentioned anywhere as a lady in waiting. Did you confuse her with Ashara, a lady in waiting for Princess Elia? 

She disappeared 10 leagues from Harrenhall, far away from any of her family. How she showed up there? there are a few possibilities.

1: she was in Riverrun with Brandon, waiting for his wedding. She ran away secretly from Riverrun (maybe claiming she wanted to ride in forest or visit isle of faces, after all she is a very wild woman and great rider) and met Rhaegar near Harrenhal. 

2. she stayed in Harrenhall to learn some southern couresys and manners from lady Whent, or simply was a guest for some days. Lady whent likely is Cat's aunt (cat is Lyanna's future sister in law). So it is possible that Lady Whent invited Lyanna to stay for some days.  She ran away secretly and met Rhaegar near Harrenhal. 

 

 

[Ygrain]

3 hours ago, WSmith84 said:

 In fact, Ned scarcely thinks or talks about Benjen at all. 

Yep. The brother he speaks about, albeit in passing, is Brandon, and his bitterness in "everything was always for Brandon" is very surprising. The one thinking about Benjen and guilt in one sentence is Jon, feeling guilty about his sulking and imagining Benjen dead in the snow, after Benjen gets lost.

 

3 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

I take Rhaegar's meeting with Lyanna not ten miles from Harrenhal as probably accurate or close enough

We aren't in disagreement here. Harrenhal is important. It all started there, and the place gets a lot of exposition in Arya's PoV.

[the trees have eyes]

On 09/10/2017 at 8:05 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:

when there is more than a half a decade between book releases, people fantasize. This is why Dario and euron are everyone, Mance is Rhaegar, the others are misunderstood good guys and a 10 year old bran is the most evil person in the story. Idiocy grows and spreads in a lack of new content for an unfinished work 

Lol.  Most likely GRRM didn't have any part for him in the story so leaves him out.  But into that absence people can project whatever they want. As some people work on the principle that their theory is correct unless it can be disproven and nothing is stated at all that leaves room for pretty much anything really.

As to joining the NW as a young man: it's for the same reason that Waymar Royce does, it still being seen as an honourable choice for a younger son who will not inherit the family estate and a career in which they can rise high (and particularly in the North).  Benjen became First Ranger after all and, given the other contenders,looked a shoe-in as Lord Commander after the Old Bear.  I know you get this but it's worth stating for those who argue that his behaviour is suspicious or mysterious in some way.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

16 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Well, Arya was a daughter of the Warden of the North, too, and yet her parents had the feeling that her manners were rather lacking. And Lyanna had neither a proper Southern Lady mother, nor a septa, nor a proper Lady elder sister, so who would pass the ladylike manners to her? She was a tomboy and her feats considerably outmatched Arya's; isn't she even described in the World Book as "boyish"? Acquiring more lady-like manners would definitely seem desirable by many.

I could not disagree more with this. There are proper ladies in the north. Arya is 8 when we the story begins. And Maester Yandel who may or may not have seen Lyanna does describe her as boyish while Kevan Lannister said she had a wild beauty, so the odds that he's seen/met Lyanna are good, I think. We don't know who Lyanna was around and her being a tomboy doesn't mean she could not be a proper lady. One doesn't negate the other. That said, I do agree that her father might have sent her away to learn the ways of the south because the north is a different place from the rest. 

In any case, we won't know anything until Winds is out.

2 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

As to joining the NW as a young man: it's for the same reason that Waymar Royce does, it still being seen as an honourable choice for a younger son who will not inherit the family estate and a career in which they can rise high (and particularly in the North).  Benjen became First Ranger after all and, given the other contenders,looked a shoe-in as Lord Commander after the Old Bear.

The 3rd son dilemma. I think Benjen may have always been destined for the NW. I find that the Tyrell situation with Mace's 3 sons and the Royce situation sort of sheds some light on what Rickard might have been thinking with regard to Benjen. The prospect for 3rd sons in Westeros seems to be kind of iffy. 

[Ana Amaral]

18 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

That said, I do agree that her father might have sent her away to learn the ways of the south because the north is a different place from the rest. 

I agree with this. Especially if you take into consideration that Arya was tomboyish, but she had Cat to educate her on the Southern ways. I don't think Lyanna did. So it seems very likely that she had to learn some different manners before being married to a lord from the south.

[Ygrain]

1 minute ago, Ana Amaral said:

I agree with this. Especially if you take into consideration that Arya was tomboyish, but she had Cat to educate her on the Southern ways. I don't think Lyanna did. So it seems very likely that she had to learn some different manners before being married to a lord from the south.

Also, disobeying one's family is very different from misbehaving in front of strangers - a stay with another family of high social standing might have been seen as a way to open Lyanna's eyes to what was expected from a girl of her status and how others would react to her breaking social norms.

24 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

I could not disagree more with this. There are proper ladies in the north. Arya is 8 when we the story begins.

Whatever ladies there might be in the north, the manners apparently didn't rub on Lyanna much, given that at 14, she poured wine on Benjen's head at a feast attended by Westerosi high nobililty, the royalty included, not to mention the completely unladylike lecturing of the hapless squires.

[Angel Eyes]

Well, I'd say that it gives two things: 

1. What Benjen was doing during the Rebellion

2. Why Benjen joined the Night's Watch while his brother's children were still young.

[the trees have eyes]

11 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well, I'd say that it gives two things: 

1. What Benjen was doing during the Rebellion

2. Why Benjen joined the Night's Watch while his brother's children were still young.

1. Does Benjen have to be doing anything other than sitting at Winterfell, safe and sound while Ned wages war in the south?  He's too young to fight and as Ned's heir it's much better to keep him safe rather than put him in harm's way and end up with the Starks being extinguished.

2. But once Ned comes back with a son and a young fertile wife likely to give him more children how long should Benjen kick his heals, not as the heir but a spare?  You could argue that no noblemen should join the NW in the event they might be needed in unforeseen circumstances - take Aemon Targaryen for example - but this seems excessively cautious.  Ned was young, healthy, married to a fertile wife and he had an heir so Benjen was effectively free to choose his own path.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

On 10/11/2017 at 9:54 AM, Ana Amaral said:

I agree with this. Especially if you take into consideration that Arya was tomboyish, but she had Cat to educate her on the Southern ways. I don't think Lyanna did. So it seems very likely that she had to learn some different manners before being married to a lord from the south.

If Lyanna was ever sent to fostering (which I think is a really strong possibility), then my money is on House Blackwood. They keep the old gods, there's the Bloodraven connection, her great grandmother was a Blackwood as was Rhaegar's. There's the backdrop of the Blackfyre rebellion there, and the never ending feud between the Blackwood and the Brackens which was central to Jaime's POV before he rode off with Brienne. Raventree Hall isn't all that far from Riverrun and as a vassal of House Tully, they would likely be attending Cat and Brandon's wedding, and the castle or lands might fall in the 10 league radius from Harrenhal that was mentioned in the World book? Maybe???

I can't stand how amazing this would be. And Benjen would be absolved.

[Ygrain]

5 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

If Lyanna was ever sent to fostering (which I think is a really strong possibility), then my money is on House Blackwood. They keep the old gods, there's the Bloodraven connection, her great grandmother was a Blackwood as was Rhaegar's. There's the backdrop of the Blackfyre rebellion there, and the never ending feud between the Blackwood and the Brackens which was central to Jaime's POV before he rode off with Brienne. Raventree Hall isn't all that far from Riverrun and as a vassal of House Tully, they would likely be attending Cat and Brandon's wedding, and the castle or lands might fall in the 10 league radius from Harrenhal that was mentioned in the World book? Maybe???

I can't stand how amazing this would be. And Benjen would be absolved.

House Blackwood would work IF it was given more space in the story. Yet, the single location, except Winterfell itself and ToJ, connected to Lyanna, is Harrenhal, which also happens to be a place which gets repeated exposition throughout the story. Hardly a coincidence, I'd say. Lyanna may not have been exactly fostered there but it is somehow tied to her tragedy.