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The Book of Swords - The Sons of the Dragon SPOILERS


Lord Varys

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1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

(I guess we could assume that Vhagar merely ignited the fire, which was common fire after that.) 

That is what we would assume there. Or do you think that dragonfire burns as hot never mind the medium it burns from? Within a dragon the temperatures are very high, and that allows to breathe very hot fire. But they stuff they ignite would then burn 'normally'. Dragonfire isn't wildfire which is a burning liquid.

51 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I recall this detail noted by @Lord Varysabove, that Aegon's crown had been described in TWOIAF as Valyrian steel and ruby, but in The Sons of the Dragon it was iron and ruby. Given what @Ranstated upthread about the separate editing processes, I guess we should assume that the original draft had a crown of iron and ruby, which was edited to Valyrian steel for TWOIAF, but left as iron and ruby for The Sons of the Dragon. 

I can actually confirm that. But it is made of Valyrian steel and square-cut rubies. We have known that for a long time.

51 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Whatever its metal component, the Dragon's crown was lost in Dorne, but there is a theory that it will be presented to our wee Aegon in Winds of Winter, so we might read for ourselves what it's made from. On the other hand, this discrepancy will allow us to craft some theories to explain why the crown Aegon gets in Winds is not actually the crown of the Dragon. 

I like the idea of the Conqueror's crown showing up again but chances are that Varys and Illyrio could not secure that. It was lost in Dorne. If anyone has it would be a Dornish house, most likely the Martells. And then it should have been a gift Mariah or Maron gave to Daeron II. Or Elia/Doran to Aerys/Rhaegar at the wedding.

I speculated a little bit about the crowns above. Aenys' golden ornate crown could still be in the possession of the Iron Throne. The Conqueror's crown was lost and may have been destroyed - by breaking the rubies out of the ring of Valyrian steel, say, because the Dornishman claiming it wanted to make it to money.

Jaehaerys I's crown seems to be lost, too. Rhaenyra sold it to the Braavosi captain who took her back to Dragonstone, and one assumes this man also had the means to remove the gemstones and melt the gold down.

Aegon III's modest golden circlet may have been destroyed at Summerhall. Egg wore it again, after Aegon III and Viserys II, but Jaehaerys II wore the warrior-crown of Maekar I.

That seems to indicate that the Iron Throne retained Aenys' ornate crown, Aegon IV's crown (worn by the Unworthy, Daeron II, Aerys I, and Aerys II), and Maekar's warrior-crown. The latter could be the crown Robert wore, if we assume he didn't have a new crown made (which we don't know, actually). Joffrey seems to have had a new golden crown, one that doesn't really fit Tommen as Cersei notes in AFfC.

In that sense, I'd not be surprised if Aegon is going to pull either Aenys' ornate crown - which would likely please the Faith - or the Unworthy's dragon crown last worn by Aerys II out of one of those chests.

But they could also be using a replica of the Conqueror's crown, of course. But then - if they have Blackfyre and/or Dark Sister they really don't need the Conqueror's crown in addition to that. Especially not if they have another genuine Targaryen crown.

51 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

ETA

When Aegon was first crowned, Visenya placed the crown on the Dragon's head. She would do the same later for her son. But when Aenys was crowned, he donned the crown himself. 

Aenys crowned himself with his father's crown but he later had a the same type of 'second coronation' in Oldtown as his father had had (and later Maegor, too, in a sense). The High Septon gave him his new crown, and most likely also crowned him with that crown when he anointed him king.

Jaehaerys I seems to have been the first king who only had one coronation and was both crowned and anointed by the High Septon in that first coronation. That is how it should be. One assumes it was this way, too, with Viserys I. Aegon II and Rhaenyra were both neither crowned nor anointed by the High Septon.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

That is what we would assume there. Or do you think that dragonfire burns as hot never mind the medium it burns from? Within a dragon the temperatures are very high, and that allows to breathe very hot fire. But they stuff they ignite would then burn 'normally'. Dragonfire isn't wildfire which is a burning liquid.

I was thinking of Harrenhal. Wasn't the reason the towers melted into twisted shapes because of Balerion's fire being hotter? I wonder how long a dragon can sustain a blast of constant flame...

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Aenys crowned himself with his father's crown but he later had a the same type of 'second coronation' in Oldtown as his father had had (and later Maegor, too, in a sense). The High Septon gave him his new crown, and most likely also crowned him with that crown when he anointed him king.

Jaehaerys I seems to have been the first king who only had one coronation and was both crowned and anointed by the High Septon in that first coronation. That is how it should be. One assumes it was this way, too, with Viserys I. Aegon II and Rhaenyra were both neither crowned nor anointed by the High Septon.

Yeah, I was just pointing out the snub by Visenya against Rhaenys's son. 

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48 minutes ago, Davos the Dragonslayer said:

Just noticed that when referring to Asha and Theon in A Clash of Kings Balon says "sons". 

 

And in other languages the masculine can apply to both. I suppose an author can do the same in English, taking some poetic license. 

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3 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I was thinking of Harrenhal. Wasn't the reason the towers melted into twisted shapes because of Balerion's fire being hotter? I wonder how long a dragon can sustain a blast of constant flame...

Me, too. Apparently Balerion could do it long enough to make the towers of Harrenhal melt. It is not very likely that the wood and whatever flammable material was within the tower could make the outside of the towers twist and melt.

3 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Yeah, I was just pointing out the snub by Visenya against Rhaenys's son. 

Oh, you were interpreting it that way? What about King Aenys being sovereign enough to crown himself, like Napoleon did? He didn't need some old hag to put the crown on his head.

The symbolism with coronations always is that the guy doing the crowning - or acting in the name of the deity sanctifying the monarch with the coronation - has more power/authority than the person receiving the crown.

And that dichotomy is there in the books. The High Septons make Targaryen kings. And if they do that they can also unmake them. As the High Septon did with King Aenys.

And I'm sure the new High Septon might or could do with King Tommen.

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5 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

And in other languages the masculine can apply to both. I suppose an author can do the same in English, taking some poetic license. 

The difference there is that the author writing as a historian should be precise. Balon Greyjoy certainly can think of his daughter Asha as a daughter, though. He actually does.

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3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It would have been lords and their authorities, of course, who punished such crimes after the Faith had no longer the right to do that by its own authority, but it would still have been the doctrines and moral and spiritual authority of the Faith which would have defined such crimes and laid out the punishments.

Just imagine some petty lord on the lands of Lord Ambrose Butterwell being caught abed with his sister or daughter. Who do you think would have told pious Lord Ambrose how to punish such abominable behavior?

Aerea was too young to marry King Jaehaerys in 48-50 AC. But, sure, she could have become Jaehaerys' third wife eventually, just as it is not unlikely that a maiden Aerea would have become King Maegor's seventh wife had he lived long enough to marry her, too.

Kings ruled both the religious and the worldly sphere after Maegor and Jaehaerys. But they did only make exceptions from religious laws for themselves and their own. They were not running around making exceptions for polygamous or incestuous smallfolk.

Marriage is a matter of religion both in the North and the Andal kingdoms. It is something you need the gods and/or septons for. Kings cannot marry people to each other, only septons, priests, or the old gods can.

In the North marriages are less sanctified than in the North.

Ran/Linda speculated that in the North - as well as among the wildlings - divorce should be remarkably easy. There are no vows exchanged there that one man and one woman are married for life. But that still doesn't mean that marriage is a secular thing up there. There is no secular sphere in a medieval society. Religion is everywhere, it influences and shapes all the customs and laws of such a society. And when a king or a lord does something he, too, is doing that within the framework of his religious culture.

The law against first night was a secular law enacted by Queen Alysanne after Faith was booted out of the business of making and enforcing laws. What were the penalties defined? Any recipients of compensation? Procedural law for enforcement?

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26 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The difference there is that the author writing as a historian should be precise. Balon Greyjoy certainly can think of his daughter Asha as a daughter, though. He actually does.

As I tell my kids on occasion, "You get what you get, and you don't get upset." Well, they do get upset too. 

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On 10/17/2017 at 8:14 PM, Lord Varys said:

Valaena Velaryon definitely had a Targaryen mother, since that's also mentioned in the published version of the history of the Conquest. I doubt that was an error there. The idea that Conquest-Daemon and Valaena were siblings makes sense to me. Aethan could then be Daemon's son, about the same age as the Targaryen siblings, or slightly younger. Ser Corlys Velaryon could be Aethan's younger brother.

Good point. The World of Ice & Fire had a fair number of errors, but that should be the least likely place for one with Sons also mentioning it. Also, particularly as the Conquest chapter was released as an excerpt like 2 years before release, IIRC. Agreed, it makes the greatest sense & is most likely that Alyssa was Daemon's sister, Aethan his eldest son, & Corlys a younger one. Grandsons, even if Valaena was still his sister & not his niece, could also work, but of course; that means Alyssa would not descend from Valaena's mother too, unless Valaena had a sister who married Daemon or his son, Aethan's father.

On 10/17/2017 at 10:07 PM, Lord Varys said:

Sure, could have been a gamble. But Alyssa would have been the person Quicksilver would have been closest after Aenys. Surely Aenys took her along on the dragon's back occasionally. And it is not that she had no Targaryen blood or anything. She may have had more than Addam and Alyn of Hull who were just Corlys Velaryon's sons.

>> (Plus, what you say later on the matter). <<

Alyssa may have rode behind Aenys on Quicksilver when he flew from Highgarden to Dragonstone for his father's funeral. Obviously she wouldn't have when (heavily) pregnant with each of their children, but I'd extremely surprised if she was never a passenger during the royal progresses, especially once Aegon retired & she (seemingly) had no dragon of her own - look more of a (future) queen-consort to a Targaryen king (sometimes) riding on the same dragon as him, than always riding on a horse (or in a wheelhouse) with the royal entourage. Rhaena being "more than fond" of Androw Farman & Lord Velaryon (Aethan? Daemon? Someone else?) basically selling her out to Maegor (even considering she thought it was inevitable he would order her presence) had shaken my belief in the theory that she was the Sea Snake's mother, but it really should be the case. O/w, it doesn't make a great deal of sense that Corlys would allow Addam & Alyn to try & tame for-years-unridden & even wild dragons if their most "recent" Targaryen ancestry was (possibly) Valaena's mother - roughly six generations back. Yes, he was passing them off as Laenor's sons - his grandsons with the dragonriding Princess Rhaenys - but he wasn't stupid.

For someone who never tamed a dragon (nor even attempted presumably), he would be extremely well-versed in dragonlore between his wife, their children, Daemon, Jaehaerys, Alysanne, Barth, etc. It's possible there were people - Corlys knew had relatively recent Targaryen ancestry - who were killed trying to tame a dragon before the boys from Hull even made their attempts. Hugh & Ulf almost certainly claimed Vermithor & Silverwing respectively before Alyn had a chance to attempt, hence having to try with the wild Sheepstealer. If perhaps unlikely (particularly given Alyn searched for Grey Ghost first to no avail), Corlys may have even refused to allow the younger Alyn to take part in the dragonseed plan, prior to Addam claiming Seasmoke. The "relentless & determined & glib of tongue" Addam & supportive Jace (& bold Alyn) could've been what convinced him to allow it. If Rhaena wasn't Corlys' mother (Sons now definitely rules out Aerea or Rhaella), the only way I could see it swing if Fire & Blood gives us evidence of several female Targaryen-male Velaryon matches pre-Conquest AND the applicable Velaryons after (i.e. Velaryon descendants of Valaena's mother) heavily intermarrying to retain that dragonlord lineage enough.

On 10/17/2017 at 10:07 PM, Lord Varys said:

As does the fact that Alyssa and her children could escape by ship without being discovered by Tyanna and Maegor in the years to come. Sailors talk, and if Tyanna can find Aerea and Rhaella it would be very odd that she could not find people essentially hiding in Maegor's backyard. It gets more glaring if they also hid with Vermithor and Silverwing, but even without the dragons it is somewhat of a stretch.

I wonder if Alyssa had help from her Velaryon kin, which could at least make this slightly more plausible. Furthermore, if Vermithor & Silverwing were with Jaehaerys & Alysanne at Storm's End for many months/a couple of years, perhaps they were kept in the bowels of Storm's End, a la Rhaegal & Viserion in the Great Pyramid ... Going further down Tinfoil Brick Road, could Storm's End magical-warding resist/protect it to dragonfire?

On 10/17/2017 at 10:07 PM, Lord Varys said:

And by the way - there is no hint whatsoever that there were dragons with Aegon and Rhaena at Crakehall. Dreamfyre sort of must have been there but if she had been there then Aegon and Rhaena would never have been besieged, right?

Rhaena was perhaps overly affected by fear & inexperience, or they were cut off from Dreamfyre, or perhaps she was even injured by the Poor Fellows. But if any of those, it comes back to this recurring problem with Sons far too often things are passed over & not explained when it would only take a sentence or whatever to cover. Yes, it happened a number of times within each of the other three historical texts, but sometimes there was enough of a hint that some readers could fairly speculate & that didn't occur enough in Sons, whilst skipping over things altogether (far) too much. In WorldThe Rogue Prince, & The Princess & the Queen they mainly just feel like (necessary) editing cuts for length, however Sons feels like a properly unfinished work, imo. Mayhaps it's mainly the same in truth, but I doubt it & the general editing of it isn't great either.

On 10/17/2017 at 11:21 PM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Tyanna might have had her connections back in Pentos, but considering the suggested locations, it doesn't seem like that's where they went.

Sorry, are you saying that they didn't flee to Pentos, or neither Tyrosh or Volantis, or both? I find it fascinating that Alyssa, Jaehaerys, & Alysanne may have hid out in Tyrosh or Volantis before they did in Storm's End. Particularly if they didn't have the dragons with them, specific nobility could've hidden the exiles in either city, but Volantis even more so with the distance & the greater exclusivity within the Black Walls. Assuming they did cross the Narrow Sea:

  • What would powerful Essosi figures look to gain for doing so?
  • Did they receive them during Jaehaerys' reign? If so, what were they?
  • Is that a reason why there was Westerosi aggression against the Triarchy only after Viserys came to the throne? (I suspect the Johanna Swann episode may have been the final straw - separate from the king's slights against them - or at least used as a casus belli by Daemon & Corlys, though).
  • If not, were there any repercussions for the Targaryen dynasty & their realm?
  • If so for that , is that a reason why Westeros (afawk) didn't assist the Volantenes in any way against the Triarchy?

Potential & valid points all with the rest of your comment.

On 10/18/2017 at 1:36 AM, The Grey Wolf said:

(Warrior's Sons of Gulltown, Dornish Poor Fellows, Aegon-Viserys-Quicksilver, Maegor's lack of an army during his attack on Oldtown, names for Gyldayn's sources, etc.)

Spitballing:

  • Perhaps the Arryns & Graftons not taking their shit, especially with their first-hand witnessing of Balerion & Vhagar in action respectively. Or they marched/sailed out of the Vale to join their brothers in the Riverlands & beyond.
  • The Reach's two greatest historical rivals - Dorne & the Stormlands - are (seemingly) the only two southern regions without a chapter of the Warrior's Sons, nor a known, let alone prominent, presence of the Stars (the Kingswood ones I'm guessing is just overflow from/via the Crownlands, taking advantage of the vast forest & as fitting "fuck you" to Maegor). That could help to explain it. Furthermore, I think the Dornish nobility (especially the Martells), perhaps even (some of) the smallfolk, wouldn't put up with such rabble. They're the least likely of the southern regions to defer to the His High Holiness of the Starry Sept in Oldtown & they control access to & from their own domains, unlike the Reachmen, Westermen, Riverlanders, & Stormlanders.
  • The show needed them & teleported them through time. Perhaps one of the unfortunately too many missing things that should've been included in Sons.
  • Well, there's at least a fair number of people who've already been mentioned who could be used, several Grand Maesters & Hands. A Hightower or some insider to them would be good. Septons, maesters, & rebels in various situations would be valid possibilities.
23 hours ago, Jaak said:

As for polygyny, sororal polygyny eliminates the competing families. If Valaena Velaryon was in her late teens when she had Visenya, she would have been 55 when she had Aenys and 60 when she had Maegor. No reason to favour one or other while babysitting, both were equally her grandchildren.

TIL. Although Valaena had most likely passed prior to the Conquest, perhaps even before Aegon married his sisters, given the lack of further mention of her (beyond being their mother) in World & Sons. Of course, we won't know for sure either way in Fire & Blood (hopefully).

22 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

So, was the chief motivation of the High Septon keeping this degree of incest away from the Iron Throne, or was it nepotism and using the power of his office to advance the interests of House Hightower?

Very much more so the latter imo, potentially even the former used as a false excuse (or at least that avuncular marriages were deemed as abominable, i.e. unlawful, incest by the Seven) to secure the Ceryse-Maegor match.

21 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But a way to deal with this stuff - and to address the whole polygamy thing, too - could be to actually work with the fictional setting of this 'Fire and Blood' history:

Interesting points, although the Visenya-Maegor incest thing would perhaps be a step too far, who would even believe that?

21 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

As to the Dornish Poor Fellows: A great way to get them into the story could be to make a considerable chunk the Vulture King's rabble Dornish Poor Fellows... If many of those were killed during the battles that could explain why they essentially were a non-issue afterwards and then, presumably, quietly disappeared after the High Septon formally disbanded them.

Nice theory. It would add to the "rabble" aspect, make up the 30k easier (it was only 25-odd years from the First Dornish War & the nobility were largely not getting involved, at least directly), & explain their effective absence during Maegor's reign.

21 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It is pretty clear that the avuncular marriage thing was the pretext used, but it is not the type of incest - if we want to count it as a degree of incest as Ran suggests above - that causes you or the children of such a union to be considered abominations.

It is known.

20 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

While I do not doubt that some in Westeros had genuine disgust about incest and perhaps even polygamy, it seems there were no shortage of great lords that were eager to marry the incestuous, polygamous royal family.

100% agreed. Also, Sharra Arryn proposed to Aegon during the Conquest. A tad optimistic, particularly as it included making Ronnel her heir & the Eyrie gaining all of the Riverlands east of the Green Fork & the Trident, but good on her. She was definitely one of the most impressive & interesting of the Conquest figures full-stop, let alone those not on Team Targaryen

18 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Forgot to include these other major plot holes/inconsistencies in my previous post.

  1. Agreed.
  2. Perhaps what I said further up in this post?
  3. Different dragons grow at different rates to different sizes, just as all animals do. At their deaths, Meraxes was at least six decades younger than Vhagar, but still larger. Sunfyre was a fucking boss during the Dance! Most likely only 20-25 & even though he presumably spent almost all of his life in the Dragonpit (although the Dragonpit = stunted dragons "theory" is complete BS, obvious from the other historical pieces). He survived Rhaenys & Meleys (arguably as/even more formidable than Daemon & Caraxes, imo) whilst driven into the ground by Vhagar (did Aemond give zero fucks about his brother's life?!), Mooton's would-be kill squad, Grey Ghost, & Baela & Moondancer from above; heavily injured for all but the first.
  4. Yeah, that's a weird one ... I think it certainly would've been possible with Dreamfyre too, especially if they worked together to target Maegor specifically (as was noted by others up-thread), but absolutely a massive risk. One that doesn't make a great deal of sense, wrt Alyssa especially. And of course, Balerion probably would've continued the battle anyway. The only alternative I can think of is if they knew (hello, Rhaena) Balerion was always stabled in the Dragonstone when not flying Maegor around, intending to attack the king in the Red Keep direct.
  5. Do you mean by Septon Moon? The guy was bit of an extremist to say the least, almost certainly condemning the polygamy (far) more anyway. Or the "committed murder & incest" instead? Eh, it's not explicitly stated that the avuncular thing (not that Rhaena was a consenting participant) was as abominable incest as parental or sibling coupling. And even though some/all of the religious zealots would've condemned it as the same, the text tells us o/w what the Faith & the realm viewed it as in truth/general.
17 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

The text doesn't make it clear that is the plan, which is a problem ... Technically speaking you're right. However, my larger point still stands. Those details should be included in TSOTD.

Completely agree. At the very least, hinted at; which WorldRogue, & Princess/Queen did (far) more often.

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Really not sure about that. It would depend on the sizes of the dragons, and one assumes they were all significantly smaller in 48 AC than Quicksilver was at her death ...

Well, Vermithor is described as "a great bronze & tan beast" already in 48AC. Dreamfyre &/or Silverwing may not have been too far behind. At 30, Quicksilver was only the 1/4 the size of Balerion, not unlikely smaller than average at that age. Tessarion at ~15 was a third the size of Vermithor, whilst already being near in size to the ~35-year-old Seasmoke. As I said just above, dragons clearly grow at different rates to each other. But yes, it's still an excessive & ridiculous risk, even if all three siblings worked in unison for their dragons to target Maegor specifically. And of course, as you say, they weren't exactly experienced & mettled enough to ready to battle Maegor & Balerion. Perhaps Robar was just tripping balls & Alyssa & her kids were like "Oh, how cute, he's such a Baratheon."

Perhaps Maegor was overwhelmed by his near zero support, with almost everyone else now openly against him, many of them suddenly. Indecisive as where to strike first & in what order afterwards. The dragon combat plan was near lunacy, but Alyssa & Robar couldn't have timed their proclamation of Jaehaerys any more perfectly.

Was Aemond possibly scared of being struck by a projectile himself? He burns Darry & Lord Harroway's Town, fired upon at the former at least, to only attack fields & rather/very minor population & seat targets (besides a depopulated/abandoned Harrenhal). Seemingly, no Riverrun, no Raventree, no Twins, & no Maidenpool. Given the support the Blacks had in the Riverlands, not unlikely Seagard, Saltpans, Fairmarket, &/or Stoney Sept as well. Of course, Doylist it could just be one of GRRM's common finger on the scales against the Greens with the Dance, but there should still be a Watsonian explanation for it.

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

This is an important point, and actually part of the reason why I find it odd that powerful lords did not try to follow in Aegon's and Maegor's footsteps after the Faith was finally broken. I mean, those men practice ridiculous stuff like the First Night. They really like to have a lot of women. Why not have multiple wives, too? If they were so willing to marry their daughters to a polygamist it is odd that they did not also like the idea themselves. Lord Celtigar gives the impression that taking more than one wife is completely normal.

Thinking about the First Night - could there be a chance that Alysanne really had issues with this polygamy thing? I could see her pushing her sons and grandsons to best bury that idea very deep.

It'd be far, far more trouble than it would be worth it. What's the point? A royal marriage for a daughter is far more advantageous than their own polygamy. It's very likely that the only First Men nobility who practiced polygamy successfully was only (established & secure) royalty, even then highly probable extremely rarely. Or at the least, it was (far) less prevalent among lesser houses. In almost every hypothetical situation (because there's sfa examples, even with the Targaryen ones), it would for the worse than the better. Celtigar was Valyrian-descended himself, not unlikely in some way pre-Conquest with the Targaryens, with a hard-on for a royal marriage; as evidenced by throwing his 12 & 13-year-old daughters(!) at a king like Maegor. The guy with two childless marriages, one of them two decades long, along with a third he didn't exactly have a healthy child from & didn't particularly respond well too.

@Jaak The First Night is all-but-confirmed imo to have only been between a lord & his smallfolk, not nobility involved on both sides (besides perhaps Valyrians/dragonlords pre-Conquest considering the whole dragonseed thing & Orys Baratheon, if he had noble parents given his surname).

Frankly, how could Alysanne not be against polygamy?

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The Velaryons apparently could not do that. Else Corlys Velaryon would most likely have betrothed Laena to Laenor rather than this Braavosi wastrel.

Agreed, but the Sealord's son wasn't necessarily a wastrel when he was first betrothed to Laena. Nor was it necessarily expected he would succeed his father as head of the family (I hope we find out more in Fire & Blood) anytime soon. Gyldayn calls him "the boy" when he dueled Daemon & his could easily have been not that old, not unlikely younger than Corlys (even Rhaenys being older is a possibility). I think the implication of the match is mutually beneficial for trade &/or being anti-Triarchy. And not to mention, Rhaenys & Corlys wished for Laenor to be married to Rhaenyra. He was only ~11 when Laena was betrothed to the Sealord's son. If Viserys snubbed the Velaryons again, he could've been matched to the daughter/female relation of some other (very) powerful family in Westeros, or a Velaryon relation, or whatever. Perhaps Driftmark could've tried with the Greens for Helaena. Yes, she was 15 years younger than Laenor & Alicent would've wanted to have married her to Aegon the Elder once the Rhaenyra option fell through completely, but it wouldn't have been out of the realm of possibility at all.

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If we consider that two dragons like Vermithor and Silverwing could have actually defeated Maegor on Balerion - by killing the rider - then it is even more odd that Dreamfyre and Rhaena were not with Aegon and Quicksilver at the Gods Eye.

Whilst a great deal wrt Dreamfyre during this time period needs to be addressed in Fire & Blood, Rhaena most likely considered the continued safety of Aerea & Rhaella foremost, including her own to be able to provide such. I believe she didn't agree with Aegon's plans, at least not fully. He had far too little support. She likely knew of their mother's scheming on their behalf. Of course, they couldn't have necessarily predicted how much things could turn against Maegor in just a few short years, but imagine if Aegon had of been patient. Four dragons, only some of the depleted Faith Militant against them, & most of the great houses behind them. Of course, this only works if they can remain in Casterly Rock, but I don't think Lyman would've discounted the guest right. He only did so IOTL specifically due to how much Maegor rekt Aegon, because the prince went far too early. The only way I see Lyman relenting to Maegor would be if the king took Balerion on such an incredible burning spree against his vassals, that the survivors were in open rebellion against the Lannisters.

4 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

(I guess we could assume that Vhagar merely ignited the fire, which was common fire after that.)

Bingo.

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Do we know if Aegon married his sisters in the same ceremony, or separately? IIRC, we don't. If "it was said by some that Aegon wed Visenya out of duty & Rhaenys out of desire" is true, then it suggests his parent/s were dead when he took Rhaenys for his bride (whether with Visenya or not) or if they were alive, he convinced them to allow him to. The "out of desire" sounds like Aerion & Valaena had not planned on marrying their younger daughter to their son, perhaps intending to match her with a Velaryon (most likely Aethan), or just hadn't put much thought into it yet, especially if the siblings were rather young. Given their relationship as adults, Rhaenys may have felt the same way (presumably) as Aegon about him as a child - Shaera & Jaehaerys-esque. It's possible there was some lesser Targaryen male, but I doubt it - we would've most likely heard of one by now. And although I believe that Aerion fathered him & knew he did, I highly doubt that Orys was even considered for Rhaenys.

Were their nuptials under Valyrian or Faith rites? One thing to consider there is whether they converted to the Seven as adults, or were they raised with it (if perhaps not exclusively) in their youth. If Septon Barre is correct, then the statues of the Seven in Dragonstone's sept were constructed from the masts of the ships that carried Aenar & co to their new home. The sept itself may have even existed before the arrival of the Targaryens, as Dragonstone very likely acted as a waypoint for the Valyrian steel trade to Westeros (indeed, I believe it was the primary reason the Freehold annexed the island in the first place). A sept for the overwhelming majority of Westerosi customers who worshiped the Seven would be accommodating & diplomatic. Imo, either ceremony is possible, but I lean towards a Valyrian one, especially if it involved all three siblings. Also, considering Visenya herself performed the Valyrian rites for the marriage of Maegor & Alys. As well as all the potential problems Lord Varys has highlighted.

Frankly, the Princes Aenys & Maegor (along with further siblings, if their parents so desired) should've been born before the Conquest, let alone when their mothers were ~32 & ~40 respectively, during the middle of the First Dornish War. It makes no sense. Was it actually King Aegon - not Queen Visenya as rumoured - who was sterile & if so, was he in denial about it? I wonder if Aenys may have been fathered by a Velaryon, not some artist as rumoured - Queen Rhaenys was far too smart for that. There would be some delicious irony if it was Ser Corlys (as he most likely died saving Aegon) or Lord Aethan (it would actually make Aenys & Lady Alyssa half-siblings, not cousins). And of course, it seems like (imo) Visenya used some sort of sorcery wrt Maegor's conception, most likely to ensure a boy & one far stronger than Aenys, but perhaps there was even more to it than that.

I wonder when Aegon started to bring Aenys on his progresses, seems like he was reasonably young. Was Aenys really "adequate as a fighter" or did his tutors over-praise his prowess? Probably both, imo. Interesting that Aegon gave Blackfyre to his elder son to train with occasionally & we get a further indication of his parenting style with the horses he gifted him. By no means was he a perfect dad, but eons ahead of the likes of Randyll Tarly. I wonder who, if anyone, encouraged Aenys' courtly & artistic interests & pursuits. Perhaps Alyssa, but that would've only been when he was older. We may be missing some close friends &/or mentors, outside of the chivalric arts. Aenys was clearly a popular prince, perhaps even to many & more of those less-inclined to his sort of personality shall we say, at least at his father's right-hand. I believe he rubbed off to some degree on Jaehaerys, who in turn influenced the likes of the younger Viserys I & Viserys II, & lifetime Baelor Breakspear & Prince Duncan (minus the Jenny of Oldstones-Baratheon business) as personable royals. And we're told that Prince Viserys was "a promising lad" & even "much loved by smallfolk & lords alike" despite his position in Maegor's court & everything that had & was happening with his family. Of course, Alyssa almost certainly had even greater positive affect on their children, but still.

Maegor really was groomed to be his father's image (& then some, plus Visenya's) martially - a real sword in his hands at three. Interesting that Gyldayn believes the cat butchering episode was most likely a historical bias against him. I hope Fire & Blood covers more historical speculation for this time period, as what happened in The Rogue Prince & The Princess & the Queen. Of course, on a meta-level, we're supposed to recall Joffrey's kitteh surgery with reading about Maegor's. Died Ser Gawen wield Lady Forlorn? Maybe, maybe not, but I suspect he may have been a KG knight; given there would've been at least one on Dragonstone, Visenya founded the order, & Aenys was trained by (the) others. The young Maegor really was a mini-Visenya dialed up to 11, & then some. Martially, the Daemon Blackfyre or Dragonknight of his day though. The "half a year before his marriage" makes me suspect it played into Visenya giving Dark Sister to her son then (more on this later).

Gyldayn's next two paragraphs sound like avuncular & (first) cousin marriages may be considered as incest among some (few) in Westeros, uncommon matches, but by no means are they illegal - that's only for sibling & parental incest, which it specifically mentions even the Faith only denounced. In Valyrian society, they were fall-backs if a sibling match was not possible. In Westerosi society, there's numerous examples of them that weren't/aren't problematic with the Faith or wider populace, & are/were generally used to bind claims to avoid dynastic conflicts (if sometimes detrimental to the woman in the relationship). And with those avuncular matches, most of them were not fully nuncle-niece or aunt-nephew, but half (e.g. Alyn Velaryon was Princess Baela's half-uncle). Who are these sorcerer princes? Probably only dragonlords, imo. I suppose it could've extended to the mages who held the Fourteen Flames in check, depending on what their relationships with the dragonlords were, but I wouldn't be surprised if these magical practitioners were slaves; let alone (near) equals of dragonriders.

Are Craster's relations with his daughters the only examples of parental incest we know? Even the dragonlords may not have practiced it - outside of a "love match" (vomit), they'd have to be extremely desperate to resort to parental incest - even if there were no lesser member of the family to marry, surely someone else from another family would be possible & better. Did Ronard Storm marry a half-sister or was she a step-sister? Are step-siblings in a relationship considered (abominably) incestuous in Westeros? The First Men certainly do seem to have been more tolerant of (royal) polygamy than the Andals, but they very likely drew the line at sibling & parental incest, particularly if wildling customs are any indicator. The Essosi Andals of old having denounced the (most) heinous of Valyrian, especially dragonlords, customs is a nice world-building touch by GRRM. The Scouring of Lorath (which I believe triggered the Andal migrations to the Reach, ~700 years after the first invasions of the Vale) presumably wasn't the first time that the Andals suffered heavily at the hands of Valyrians, perhaps even the dragonlords, particularly considering the founding of Myr & the establishment of Qohor & Norvos by religious dissidents. It seems that only with the founding of Pentos (the 3rd last Free City?), that local Andals accepted the inevitability of Valyrian rule.

I certainly understand Aegon's policy wrt to the Faith, the (partial) deference & acquiescence for no opposition from such a powerful institution, but I wonder if it was a bit too much & if he should've "asked" one of the more amenable High Septons (the initial one, who blessed & anointed him, for example) to actually declare his incestuous polygamy lawful. Mayhaps that could've eased tensions later down the line. A little bit of new(?) information on the Faith - certain rights & privileges (what though?), tax exemption, & solely internal justice; which Aegon confirmed, demonstrating imo that he had more room to move with them. An official declaration of the lawfulness of the Targaryen polygamy, incest, & fruits of those unions should've been possible. Also with Aegon's confirmations, the old kingdoms had clearly done the same. Still, I think the position of High Septon & the Faith Militant became even more powerful under Aegon's rule. Though political power was far more centralised than previously, the Father of the Faithful exercised even more of it, whilst still keeping the more zealous of his flock somewhat in check (tbf, dragons & the Conqueror's strong rule). The Warrior's Sons added another chapter, in the new capital itself, with a leader rising to Grand Captain by the reign of Aenys (if not earlier) when the Captain in Oldtown was Lord Hightower's younger brother, no less.

Confirmation that Aenys & Maegor had no sisters, so what was with the announcement on Not A Blog stating that they would be among the supporting cast featuring? IIRC, there were a couple of daughters by Rhaenys in the first Sons reading, but they were dropped by the second ... Anyway, I think a little too much is made of the "informal" nature of the earliest Small Councils to when Jaehaerys formalised them to the level they (generally) existed as thereafter. Yes, Rhaenys & Visenya were essentially co-rulers with their brother, sitting the Iron Throne in their own right (if in his absence & arguably by his authority), (generally) most likely with even more power than a Hand. And the Master (or Mistress) of Whisperers was only introduced under Maegor with Tyanna as his spymaster (although I don't think it was completely official as it were, as she was only referred to as "the mistress of whispers" & seems to have derived more of her power as a co-queen & influence with Maegor). But it's obvious from so early as his initial landing coronation that Aegon had thought through his most prominent royal positions & they were powerful courtiers & administrators.

Wow, Elio has said that the mention of Alyssa having a Targaryen mother in The World of Ice & Fire is an error. Aenys & Alyssa's degree of cousin relation may only be in the Velaryon line, not merely closest as the wording in Sons suggests. Perhaps most likely with Conquest-Lord Daemon being Aethan's father & a brother of Valaena, or something like that. Considering the losses to the royal fleet during the Conquest, necessitating Aegon (via Torrhen Stark) to hire the Braavosi sellsails against the Sistermen (& I believe the war fleet he had against the ironborn in 2AC was mostly made up of Reach & Westerlands vessels), it could've been many years before it was completely rebuilt & crewed. Particularly with how the First Dornish War was such a financial (the Stormlord ransoms presumably paying for Dorne's rebuilding & perhaps also how the Martells could genuinely have been able to hire a Faceless Man), political, & manpower drain.

Aegon would've been an utter fool imo to not marry Alyssa to Aenys:

  • Closest applicable female relation (perhaps his only not very distant), from the family of their oldest & most loyal supporters.
  • Not a native Westerosi lady, which could cause anger from prominent vassals passed over for some other, with Aenys as the heir.
  • An example for the native Westerosi houses to strive for, to potentially be rewarded with a royal match for leal service themselves in future.

Rhaena was obviously named for her grandmother. No surprises that Visenya proposed betrothing the newborn princess to her son (geez, a baby being engaged is weird), nor that Aenys & Alyssa opposed it. Interesting though, albeit telling, that it was the High Septon's objection which specifically turned Aegon away from it. The king may have even decreed it officially considering the High Septon heard of it, although it could've been brought up in open court (say Rhaena's presentation) &/or His High Holiness informed by some royal servant (say Grand Maester Gawen). That he didn't actually condemn the match as unlawful incest & of course, that he proposed Ceryse Hightower (his maternal niece) instead, very much further evidences that avuncular relations are not abominable incest in the eyes of the Faith; with the vague disapproval as cover for obvious dynastic ambition. Personally, Aegon made a mistake. I think he would've been better encouraging a match for Ceryse to a Tyrell, Baratheon, Velaryon, Lannister, Stark, Tully, or Arryn. Perhaps even a Martell. And for Maegor, a maid from one of the Paramount houses, but ideally a Baratheon. Possibly even a Celtigar, Massey, or Bar Emmon.

For timing, Maegor marrying Ceryse, & being related to the Hightowers through marriage, I think this High Septon was most likely the one who paid for the Sept of Remembrance on the Hill of Rhaenys. I wonder what, if anything, was there previously. Most likely a smaller & simpler sept, specially considering the late queen's brilliant knack for soft power, including with relation to the Faith in philanthropy & (if nominal) piety with the dominant religion. By the time of his marriage, I believe Maegor had been made Prince of Dragonstone by his father (likely pushed for by his mother), in-so-far as inheriting the seat after Aegon's death for his own line. The multiple mentions of the younger son as PoD, outside of the first, including the one here with his wedding. Not to mention, factoring into Visenya's later disgust when Aenys named Aegon 1.5 as PoD over Maegor when he was in (temporary) exile. I've always thought that Ceryse was unmatched at 21, because the Hightowers had always wished to wed her to a Targaryen prince, Aenys first. I just recalled how disgusting the bedding ceremonies are. And what a charming young man Maegor was. Seven hells, poor Ceryse. Saying it now, Maegor may have been sterile, perhaps as a side-effect of his conception.

Viserys was seemingly named after Visenya. I wonder what were all the motivations for doing so & how the she viewed it. Jaehaerys may have been named for a Jacaerys, which was a traditional Velaryon name, but we've only encountered once with Jace near a century later. Most likely he would've been one of Alyssa's unnamed brothers. Alysanne clearly for her mother. Interesting that "some said (Maegor) stood behind his brother's daughters" in the succession, considering there was only ever one (known) successful (i.e. wasn't deposed) Queen Regnant in any of the pre-Conquest kingdoms. Some may have done so for a desire to not see Maegor ever sit the throne, with others perhaps looking to Valyrian succession, which may have been somewhat more progressive than inheritance in Westeros if Daenys & Elaena (both a co-ruling Lady of Dragonstone with their brother-husbands) were anything to go by. Along with & tied to that, the eldest daughter-eldest son marriage tradition.

I'd really like to learn more about the Tullys of this time in Fire & Blood, particularly who was the Lord of Riverrun at this time, who was during Aenys & Maegor's reigns, & how they were related to Edmyn. Also, this tourney - who were the KG knights, how old & skilled were they, & who was the eventual champion? What weapon did Maegor use in melees - a sword, a mace, a warhammer, or something else? Aegon personally knighting Maegor was not unlikely the high point of their relationship, hopefully Visenya was there with the Hand ruling in their absence. A great honour being from his royal father & with Blackfyre, not to mention he was the youngest knight of his day - it definitely seems like knighthood was given to younger men during the Targaryen era than before the Conquest, perhaps with anyone under 18 rarely being knighted. Confirmation then that Aegon himself was knighted - my guess is by Ser Quenton Qoherys.

Interesting that there were two separate campaigns against Sargaso Saan in consecutive years, suggesting he was a formidable foe, along with the "several bloody affrays" & the Crown launching them in the first place. I believe he led, or was at least part of, the pirate fleet that sacked Tall Trees Town in 19AC, which prompted Aegon to (finally) commission city walls & gates for KL. Interesting that Ser Osmund accompanied Aethan & Maegor, presumably as the commander of the royal forces, but neither Aegon or Visenya seem to have provided dragon support - they may have only needed the single campaign & sparing who knows how many men & ships. Who was the Giant of the Trident? I suspect he may have been a Strong descendant, whether male-line or female-line or bastard-line, given the location, his name, & dramatic potential with a Strong as Hand. Even better if it was he who won the joust in the Riverrun tourney.

"On tourney ground & battlefield, however, Prince Maegor's accomplishment's far exceeded those of his brother" sounds like Aenys may have seen military action at some stage too. I don't think his march from Riverrun to Harrenhal in 37AC would count, so what would it have been? There's five years between Viserys & Jaehaerys, so it may be that Aenys also took part in some of the campaigns that Maegor did, but I doubt it. Perhaps it was earlier attempt to bring the Giant to justice.

Ok, the dragons ... Yes, it's ridiculous that Princes Aegon (pre-Quicksilver) & Viserys did not claim one of these hatchlings/young dragons, afawk. Particularly as it says the ones after Quicksilver only hatched "in the later years of Aegon's reign" so they wouldn't have been overlarge or aggressive, plus less likely that some may have died. As has been said, Aegon 1.5 can really only be explained properly if the plan was for him to claim Balerion or Vhagar (the former unlikely at best, given Maegor's "only one dragon worthy of (me)" jab back at Alyssa & that he claimed the dragon), or he had one that was killed by the Poor Fellows at Crakehall. My guess is that Viserys had one, but his hostage status meant he couldn't escape on it & if it wasn't killed by Maegor, it was among the "their get" of Balerion & Vhagar the Dragonpit was for. That, I don't think Vermithor was previously his, before Jaehaerys had it.

Hopefully Fire & Blood sorts them all out ... The "feast of friendship" is definitely something else I want to learn more about. What did Aegon think of it? Deria & her family? Which Dornish nobles went & which were absent? What did Visenya & Orys (& Argella) think of it? Which of the king's vassals, if any, attended? If any were invited, who were they & who went? What did Aenys think of it, especially wrt Rhaenys? His presence definitely suggests that Aegon wanted the peace to continue after his death. Perhaps he wished for Dorne to eventually be brought into the realm through the marriage of a grandchild (or great-grandchild) to a Martell, potentially even a double one as what happened 150-odd years later. A bit disappointing we didn't get more on royal progresses, especially Aegon's last one & a few details of Aenys & Alyssa taking them over. Are we meant to take it that Maegor never went on any of them, or at least only rarely did? Because there's explicit mention that Aegon pretty much brought Aenys along with him very regularly/all the time from some young age, whilst Maegor stayed with Visenya, mostly on Dragonstone. I suppose Maegor's martial prowess just wasn't worth demonstrating much to the wider realm, given his personality.

Bloody hell! 100k people in KL by (seemingly) 33AC, no wonder it was (& somewhat still is) a clusterfuck. The Targaryens had left plenty of room within the city walls, but it clearly was not enough in retrospect. Oldtown & White Harbor obviously benefited from the planning associated with (far) slower growth, Lannisport & Gulltown presumably the same. And what an abomination the Aegonfort had become, I'd love to see some artwork of it eventually. I suspect having Dragonstone to go back to delayed the necessary rebuilding of the royal seat. Between progresses & Dragonstone stays & Aegonfort expansions, along with the city walls, Sept of Remembrance, Red Keep, & Dragonpit projects; it's not that surprising that public works by the Crown in KL & beyond only began during Jaehaerys I's reign, advocated foremost by Septon Barth.Aegon probably commanded Visenya to oversee the building of the Red Keep for her skills & shared interests in the project, particularly with a new Hand (Osmund's death & his own semi-retirement perhaps spurred the king to finally do something about the Aegonfort), but it does seem like he didn't want to be around her. Having, perhaps even specifically choosing, a rather minor local lord as Hand would mean they should be in KL working as much as possible; than if they were a more powerful & geographically-distant noble. Interesting that Aegon (10-11) & Viserys (7-8) were not with their parents on progress at Highgarden, but with their grandfather on Dragonstone when he passed. I wonder if that was the norm, or they just weren't on that one for whatever reason (GRRM to put in a Godfather reference?). Was Rhaena (13-14) with Aenys & Alyssa? I'm getting a cute image of the Painted Table set up for the Conquest - kind of like how Egg & Aemon played out the Redgrass Field on the terrain table of their father's maester - with one or both of the boys (or maybe Aegon himself, but he was showing them) in the elevated Dragonstone seat.

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Thereafter His Graceset out for Oldtown to receive the blessing of the High Septon, traveling by way ofRiverrun, Lannisport, and Highgarden on a grand royal progress. His wife and childrenmade the journey with him, and all along the route the smallfolk appeared by the hundredsand thousands to hail their new king and queen. At the Starry Sept, the High Septonanointed him as he had his father, and presented him with a crown of yellow gold, with the faces of the Seven inlaid in jade and pearl.

...

King Aenys was still on his progress, guesting with Lord Tully of Riverrun, when thefather of a maid Lord Qoherys had ruined opened a postern gate at Harrenhal to anoutlaw who styled himself Harren the Red, and claimed to be a grandson of Harren theBlack.

The Sons of the Dragon

So, Aenys went from Riverun to Lannisport to Highgarden to Oldtown to... Riverrun... Really, George? 

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51 minutes ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

 O/w, it doesn't make a great deal of sense that Corlys would allow Addam & Alyn to try & tame for-years-unridden & even wild dragons if their most "recent" Targaryen ancestry was (possibly) Valaena's mother - roughly six generations back. Yes, he was passing them off as Laenor's sons - his grandsons with the dragonriding Princess Rhaenys - but he wasn't stupid.

For someone who never tamed a dragon (nor even attempted presumably), he would be extremely well-versed in dragonlore between his wife, their children, Daemon, Jaehaerys, Alysanne, Barth, etc. It's possible there were people - Corlys knew had relatively recent Targaryen ancestry - who were killed trying to tame a dragon before the boys from Hull even made their attempts. Hugh & Ulf almost certainly claimed Vermithor & Silverwing respectively before Alyn had a chance to attempt, hence having to try with the wild Sheepstealer. If perhaps unlikely (particularly given Alyn searched for Grey Ghost first to no avail), Corlys may have even refused to allow the younger Alyn to take part in the dragonseed plan, prior to Addam claiming Seasmoke. The "relentless & determined & glib of tongue" Addam & supportive Jace (& bold Alyn) could've been what convinced him to allow it. If Rhaena wasn't Corlys' mother (Sons now definitely rules out Aerea or Rhaella), the only way I could see it swing if Fire & Blood gives us evidence of several female Targaryen-male Velaryon matches pre-Conquest AND the applicable Velaryons after (i.e. Velaryon descendants of Valaena's mother) heavily intermarrying to retain that dragonlord lineage enough.

The net outcome of Sowing was 4 successes and for these 4 successes 16 deaths, 48 injuries, unknown number of attempts failed uninjured (note that at least 2 deaths were not attempts, namely sons of Silver Denys).

Considering that even after Addam was a dragonrider, a hero and a Velaryon, Corlys never dared claim that he himself impregnated Marilda while wed to Rhaenys, it is not clear how close he was to Marilda and his grand/sons as they grew up. If the commoner bastards with no recognition, no Waters surname, no pseudonymous cash apprenticing them as squires and "hedge knights" etc. decided to try and make themselves a name or die trying, did Corlys have either influence or concern to stop them?

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@Lord Varys, After re-reading the first few pages of The Sons of the Dragon, I was thinking your explanation as to why Visenya might have been so desperate to conceive a second heir for Aegon that she resorted to sorcery to conceive Maegor was spot on. But if Visenya was so concerned with perpetuating the Targaryen rule, why did she officiate Maegor's second wedding? The sons were getting along, Aenys's rule appeared to have stablized, her son was Hand of the King, and the succession was secure with several heirs. 

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1 hour ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Sorry, are you saying that they didn't flee to Pentos, or neither Tyrosh or Volantis, or both?

Gyldayn suggests they went to Tyrosh or Volantis. But nothing suggests that they might have gone to Pentos.

Which explains why Tyanna couldn't find them. Although she might still have connections in Pentos, we have no reason to assume that she had any connections in any of the other Free Cities, including Tyrosh and Volantis.

 

Quote

 I find it fascinating that Alyssa, Jaehaerys, & Alysanne may have hid out in Tyrosh or Volantis before they did in Storm's End. Particularly if they didn't have the dragons with them, specific nobility could've hidden the exiles in either city, but Volantis even more so with the distance & the greater exclusivity within the Black Walls. Assuming they did cross the Narrow Sea:

  • What would powerful Essosi figures look to gain for doing so?
  • Did they receive them during Jaehaerys' reign? If so, what were they?
  • Is that a reason why there was Westerosi aggression against the Triarchy only after Viserys came to the throne? (I suspect the Johanna Swann episode may have been the final straw - separate from the king's slights against them - or at least used as a casus belli by Daemon & Corlys, though).
  • If not, were there any repercussions for the Targaryen dynasty & their realm?
  • If so for that , is that a reason why Westeros (afawk) didn't assist the Volantenes in any way against the Triarchy?

Potential & valid points all with the rest of your comment.

They would gain a powerful friend. Alyssa's children had a claim to the throne, and Maegor remained childless. Making Alyssa (and her younger children) a friend of theirs by protecting them would give them a good chance to make a powerful new ally.

 

The Triarchy was only formed in 96 AC, so existed only during the last seven years of Jaehaerys's reign. And the actions of the Triarchy were, at first, welcomed in the Seven Kingdoms.

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8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is certainly true. At least while the dragons are around. Afterwards it would be much more difficult to push the Faith and the Realm at large to accept something completely out of the ordinary. 

Yeah, we've had a SSM saying this for years that people tend to ignore when arguing that Rhaegar's polygamy would not have been an issue.

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, George would still be inconsistent with the way he describes things during the Dance, where Rhaenyra's three dragonriding sons are considered to be no match for Vhagar and the other Green dragonriders even if Caraxes and Meleys supported them. Which, by comparison, is very odd.

My recollection is that Rhaenyra just wasn't willing to risk her children's lives, especially after Lucerys died. But I could be wrong it's been a while.

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I doubt that there were worldly laws regulating the marriages of the people.

Maybe not, but then the First Night was made illegal by Rhaenys, not the faith. Plus we know incest is considered a crime, Cersei is charged with it. So I don't see why polygamy wouldn't be too. 

1 hour ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

@Jaak The First Night is all-but-confirmed imo to have only been between a lord & his smallfolk, not nobility involved on both sides (besides perhaps Valyrians/dragonlords pre-Conquest considering the whole dragonseed thing & Orys Baratheon, if he had noble parents given his surname).

Aerys II seemed to think he could have Joanna Lannister on her wedding night if the First Night hadn't been abolished. Though I guess that could have been a really creepy joke that wasn't totally based in fact. 

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1 hour ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Gyldayn suggests they went to Tyrosh or Volantis. But nothing suggests that they might have gone to Pentos.

Which explains why Tyanna couldn't find them. Although she might still have connections in Pentos, we have no reason to assume that she had any connections in any of the other Free Cities, including Tyrosh and Volantis.

Why should they have gone to a city at all? Stupid.

A dragon is conspicuous. But a dragon is fast. If Rhaenyra could chase Syrax to Dragonstone and back as a day trip...

 

A fugitive dragonrider can cover a hundred leagues in a day, or in the darkness of a night (Balerion attacked Harrenhal at dusk). A dragonrider getting overtaken by hunger, fatigue, dusk or dawn could pick a suitable campsite in ten leagues around. If she is worried about bad surprises, look at relatively forested areas, away from villages, lonely pastures, herds of sheep in outfields...

Two one year olds should be possible to handle as "baggage". Sure, feeding two one year olds exclusively on roast mutton and milk of one mother is not quite balanced diet, especially if the mother has to feed on roast mutton alone as well. But consider the speed - in a week they´re in Dorne or past Rhoyne.

If you see a small dragon flashing by in a hurry, what are you going to do? Tell a curious tall tale? By day, there will be a few people who also saw the dragon... scattered around the landscape. By night, with people asleep in houses, even the few that are up at night will have trouble seeing a dragon in sky. Though admittedly the dragonrider also has problems seeing where sheep are.

People will talk... and then what? By the time you walk to the castle, the rider has eaten, slept and taken off. By the time your lord has sent a flock of ravens... how long will it take before any raven encounters Maegor or Visenya? If they do launch a wild goose chase, how much time do you think Maegor needs to search for the trail, while Rhaena is making straight ahead with a bit of zigzags to throw off pursuit... what´s the use of Maegor chasing to Yronwood and Visenya to Dayne while Rhaena gets to Fowler between them? A fugitive can fly anywhere, a pursuer cannot fly everywhere at the same time.

 

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1 hour ago, Jaak said:

Why should they have gone to a city at all? Stupid.

A dragon is conspicuous. But a dragon is fast. If Rhaenyra could chase Syrax to Dragonstone and back as a day trip...

 

A fugitive dragonrider can cover a hundred leagues in a day, or in the darkness of a night (Balerion attacked Harrenhal at dusk). A dragonrider getting overtaken by hunger, fatigue, dusk or dawn could pick a suitable campsite in ten leagues around. If she is worried about bad surprises, look at relatively forested areas, away from villages, lonely pastures, herds of sheep in outfields...

Two one year olds should be possible to handle as "baggage". Sure, feeding two one year olds exclusively on roast mutton and milk of one mother is not quite balanced diet, especially if the mother has to feed on roast mutton alone as well. But consider the speed - in a week they´re in Dorne or past Rhoyne.

If you see a small dragon flashing by in a hurry, what are you going to do? Tell a curious tall tale? By day, there will be a few people who also saw the dragon... scattered around the landscape. By night, with people asleep in houses, even the few that are up at night will have trouble seeing a dragon in sky. Though admittedly the dragonrider also has problems seeing where sheep are.

People will talk... and then what? By the time you walk to the castle, the rider has eaten, slept and taken off. By the time your lord has sent a flock of ravens... how long will it take before any raven encounters Maegor or Visenya? If they do launch a wild goose chase, how much time do you think Maegor needs to search for the trail, while Rhaena is making straight ahead with a bit of zigzags to throw off pursuit... what´s the use of Maegor chasing to Yronwood and Visenya to Dayne while Rhaena gets to Fowler between them? A fugitive can fly anywhere, a pursuer cannot fly everywhere at the same time.

 

Sure, a dragonrider can travel quickly. But Alyssa didn't have a dragon, as far as we know. And we have no idea when Jaehaerys and Alysanne bonded with theirs.

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On the Faith's abhorrence at Aegon's polygamy...

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A makeshift sept constructed out of the hulk of a cog on the Blackwater served the common people, and soon a much grander sept was raised on Visenya’s Hill with money sent by the High Septon. (This would be later joined by the Sept of Remembrance on the Hill of Rhaenys as a memorial to the queen.)

Aegon I, TWOIAF

So, Aegon's second queen (at least I presume Rhaenys was Aegon's second queen) had already died, leaving Aegon with one queen... And the Faith raised a grand sept--a sept mind you--as a memorial to Aegon's second, polygamous queen. 

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