The Book of Swords - The Sons of the Dragon SPOILERS

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On 10.10.2017 at 3:24 PM, Lord Varys said:

List of confirmed mistakes:

Rhalla Targaryen > Rhaella Targaryen

Robar Baratheon > Rogar Baratheon

Aethon Velaryon > Aethan Velaryon

On 16.10.2017 at 7:59 PM, The Grey Wolf said:

Also, Loadows is a typo. It should read Lord Meadows.

On 10.10.2017 at 8:14 PM, Ran said:

 It seems George gave Gardner the initial version of Sons of the Dragon to work from, not the one that had edits. So there's mistakes in "Sons of the Dragon" that shouldn't be there.

And once again just in case: is it possible that Bush is also a typo?

On 17.10.2017 at 1:44 PM, Sovenok said:

I'm in doubts about Owen Bush's surname. Does anybody know if it's correct? Or should it be Bushy like Ben Bushy (House Bushy)?

 

[RhaegoTheUnborn]

What exactly is the issue with Ser Owens surname? I have the same last name and its spelled how it is in the book. Is it a different way of spelling it or something in the ASOIAF universe?

[Ser Jon Darry]

2 hours ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

What exactly is the issue with Ser Owens surname? I have the same last name and its spelled how it is in the book. Is it a different way of spelling it or something in the ASOIAF universe?

It's because there is a house in the Reach by the name of Bushy, so some people think that maybe Ser Owen Bush is supposed to be Ser Owen Bushy instead.

[RhaegoTheUnborn]

Ah, I see. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

[chrisdaw]

Think it 50/50 Tyanna killed Visenya.

[Lord Asher Forrester]

On 09/10/2017 at 10:17 PM, Curled Finger said:

Yes but is there anything new at all about Blackfyre or Dark Sister?  

Sorry about that, I won't have it until tomorrow...Anxiously waiting.

 

On 09/10/2017 at 10:43 PM, Lord Varys said:

Not that I recall. Blackfyre darkened while it was burned with the corpse of the Conqueror, but I think we already knew that.

I don't recall knowing that Blackfyre was darkened before reading this, but I may just have forgotten that. Was that on TWOIAF?

 

Anyways, from now on i think this could be very imortant to the main plot, since i believe Blackfyre could be or become Lightbringer itself (as easily as it could not). Or at least this funeral could indicate a very intresting fact about blood magic. I will explain why i think so...

The fact that Blackfyre blade was darker after the funeral pyre may indicate an magical process of Blackfyre absorving Aegon's ashes and/or blood. (Even if such a process was  unknown one by those who did the funeral)

Of course this could all be nonsense and there are big and confusing holes in this theory since... 

Spoiler

"Vhagar supplied the flames to light the fire."

And right after its said that:

Spoiler

"...its blade darker but elsewise unharmed. No
common fire can damage Valyrian steel." *

* The bold words were marked by myself.

Is it dragonflame just common fire then? This part is very weird and confusing to me... but it may, or not, have lesser importance.

So how this thing may have worked????

If it's blade was darker, but the sword was not "damaged by the flames" so... As is seems to me, the dragonflame does not really burned the sword darker, since it was unharmed elsewise but for the blade, then Vaghar fires made the blade absorb Aegon's blood.

Everything smells a lot like blood magic to me, and there is power in King's blood right?

But, we do know that valyrian glyphs and metalwork with blood magic is nothing that comes without a price and without a lot of knowledge. So, was it just a coincidence or was Visenya really a "witch" and made this for some particular reason we don't know yet? 

 

This theory is just logical, but kind of weak in factual thinking, and it just points to lots more of unanswered questions, i know.

Surely this could easily be a stillbirth theory. But i quite just liked this idea i had when reading this part and needed to share, so more people can add or destroy the theory. 

[Curled Finger]

7 hours ago, Lord Asher Forrester said:

 

I don't recall knowing that Blackfyre was darkened before reading this, but I may just have forgotten that. Was that on TWOIAF?

Anyways, from now on i think this could be very imortant to the main plot, since i believe Blackfyre could be or become Lightbringer itself (as easily as it could not). Or at least this funeral could indicate a very intresting fact about blood magic. I will explain why i think so...

The fact that Blackfyre blade was darker after the funeral pyre may indicate an magical process of Blackfyre absorving Aegon's ashes and/or blood. (Even if such a process was  unknown one by those who did the funeral)

Of course this could all be nonsense and there are big and confusing holes in this theory since... 

  Hide contents

"Vhagar supplied the flames to light the fire."

And right after its said that:

  Hide contents

"...its blade darker but elsewise unharmed. No
common fire can damage Valyrian steel." *

* The bold words were marked by myself.

Is it dragonflame just common fire then? This part is very weird and confusing to me... but it may, or not, have lesser importance.

So how this thing may have worked????

If it's blade was darker, but the sword was not "damaged by the flames" so... As is seems to me, the dragonflame does not really burned the sword darker, since it was unharmed elsewise but for the blade, then Vaghar fires made the blade absorb Aegon's blood.

Everything smells a lot like blood magic to me, and there is power in King's blood right?

But, we do know that valyrian glyphs and metalwork with blood magic is nothing that comes without a price and without a lot of knowledge. So, was it just a coincidence or was Visenya really a "witch" and made this for some particular reason we don't know yet? 

I thought exactly the same thing.   History of Westeros just did a podcast about Sons of the Dragon.   They all seem very satisfied that Vhaghar's flames only started the fire.  Presumably this pyre involved burning materials.  If I understand correctly, Vhaghar only supplied the match but the fire was just a common wood fire.   Yah, I know, it's complicated.   I'm still second guessing my convictions regarding Lamentation after all this.   

We know Tobho Mott commented something to the effect that Oath Kieeper (and Widows Wail) seemed to drink in the color of the dye he was trying to incorporate.   Nonetheless, there is red in the ripples  so all was not lost.   I think it's possible the Valyrian Steel swords have a type of memory.  You may be onto something with absorption of the blood because it does all boil down to blood magic.   I would like to offer that if dragons are fire made flesh, flesh being live,  perhaps this darkening is in fact a reaction to the magic in the blade thriving on the living dragon flame?   

There is or was or is a VS sword called Orphan Maker.   It's blade is black.   Makes you wonder what happened there.  

[Cridefea]

16 hours ago, Lord Asher Forrester said:

I don't recall knowing that Blackfyre was darkened before reading this, but I may just have forgotten that. Was that on TWOIAF?

I knew it was darker but not why. 

Spoiler

"You did not have to draw any Valyrian blades in "The Hedge Knight," but now you're got a plethora, it seems. They all have certainly similarities -- the color ranges from smoky grey to almost black, the ripples in the steel -- but each one is unique as well. Bloodraven carries Dark Sister, Corbray has Lady Forlorn, and Daemon fights with Blackfyre, the sword of Aegon the Conquerer and all the Targaryen kings that followed him.

Blackfyre should be somewhat larger and darker than the other two, and its design needs to suggest flames."  

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Concerning_the_Great_Bastards/

And Mott said it is said the swords remember.

Has it absorbed fire? 

 

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, Cridefea said:

I knew it was darker but not why. 

  Hide contents

"You did not have to draw any Valyrian blades in "The Hedge Knight," but now you're got a plethora, it seems. They all have certainly similarities -- the color ranges from smoky grey to almost black, the ripples in the steel -- but each one is unique as well. Bloodraven carries Dark Sister, Corbray has Lady Forlorn, and Daemon fights with Blackfyre, the sword of Aegon the Conquerer and all the Targaryen kings that followed him.

Blackfyre should be somewhat larger and darker than the other two, and its design needs to suggest flames."  

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Concerning_the_Great_Bastards/

And Mott said it is said the swords remember.

Has it absorbed fire? 

 

I think it has absorbed blood and fire, Cridefea.  Certainly flesh and fire.   There is a reason the Targs cremate rather than bury.  I understand we have the fire connection, but most people have a reason for what they do with their remains.    We know the Valyrians believed they were gods despite having gods of their own.    So there was a faith in place.   Perhaps they believed they were returning to their seat of power, fire, and adding to its power.    I don't know, but you get the idea.    There is a reason for comparatively  odd cremation as opposed to burial, but we don't know what it is.    What we do know is that bodies are burned in the North out of fear of transformation in death.    Hmmmm, could that be telling us something?  

Let's take it a step further and ask why the heck this invaluable heirloom was even placed with Aegon in the fire?    What was that supposed to do or signal?  

[Lord Varys]

On 21.10.2017 at 7:49 AM, chrisdaw said:

Think it 50/50 Tyanna killed Visenya.

She lived on Dragonstone and was in her seventies already. There is really nothing mysterious about her death.

If Tyanna had arranged her death Alyssa and her children would have died with her, or at least wouldn't have been able to escape in the aftermath.

9 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I think it has absorbed blood and fire, Cridefea.  Certainly flesh and fire.   There is a reason the Targs cremate rather than bury.  I understand we have the fire connection, but most people have a reason for what they do with their remains.    We know the Valyrians believed they were gods despite having gods of their own.    So there was a faith in place.   Perhaps they believed they were returning to their seat of power, fire, and adding to its power.    I don't know, but you get the idea.    There is a reason for comparatively  odd cremation as opposed to burial, but we don't know what it is.    What we do know is that bodies are burned in the North out of fear of transformation in death.    Hmmmm, could that be telling us something?  

We know the dragonlords didn't care about religion. There was religious freedom in Valyria, but the dragonlords were atheists. They didn't care about gods or religion.

There burial rituals seem to be connected to the dragons they rode. It makes sense for them to burn their mortal remains without making a big religious thing out of that. Cremation is a very common thing in many cultures, anyway.

Apparently, heat/fire has an effect on the color of Valyrian steel. But that doesn't mean that has some great meaning.

9 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Let's take it a step further and ask why the heck this invaluable heirloom was even placed with Aegon in the fire?    What was that supposed to do or signal?  

Why not? They knew that the fire couldn't harm the sword. And it had been Aegon's sword.

[chrisdaw]

14 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

She lived on Dragonstone and was in her seventies already. There is really nothing mysterious about her death.

If Tyanna had arranged her death Alyssa and her children would have died with her, or at least wouldn't have been able to escape in the aftermath.

Visenya dies next after Tyanna knocks off Alys, while Maegor is away. Visenya and Tyanna were on good terms, then were not, no reasons given but more importantly no purpose for providing us that information is apparent. Alyssa is an irrelevance.

[Lord Varys]

21 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Visenya dies next after Tyanna knocks off Alys, while Maegor is away. Visenya and Tyanna were on good terms, then were not, no reasons given but more importantly no purpose for providing us that information is apparent. Alyssa is an irrelevance.

Visenya seems to have been sick/slowly dying before that. This quite doesn't indicate she was a healthy aged person:

Quote

On Dragonstone, the Dowager Queen Visenya had grown thin and haggard, the flesh melting from her bones.

That's her description for the year 44 AC, before Alys' downfall. One assumes some mortal disease already had her in its grab at that point.

Visenya and Tyanna also were never on good terms, actually. Visenya allowed Tyanna to take care of Maegor during his coma but she never never liked her.

Alyssa and her children certainly are not an irrelevance, and neither is Dark Sister, the sword Maegor himself wielded in his youth, before Aenys gave him Blackfyre. If Tyanna had arranged Visenya's death, she would have had agents on the island and in the citadel, agents that could have ensured that they don't get away. If you can kill the Dowager Queen you must have more than a little influence on her island. And once she is dead you can use the influence you have there to seize power in the name of King Maegor - or your own name. You are acting in the name of Queen Tyanna, after all.

[chrisdaw]

8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Visenya and Tyanna also were never on good terms, actually. Visenya allowed Tyanna to take care of Maegor during his coma but she never never liked her.

You can provide a quote for that?

Nothing you said regarding Alyssa logically follows the other.

[Lord Varys]

20 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

You can provide a quote for that?

Sure:

Quote

Then His Grace announced his intent to take Tyanna of Pentos as his third wife. Though it was whispered that his mother the Queen Dowager had no love for the Pentoshi sorceress, only Grand Maester Myres dared speak against her openly.

Can you provide a quote indicating that Visenya ever had any love for Tyanna?

And while you are at it - can you provide us with a quote indicating that Tyanna may have wanted Visenya dead?

The fact that she resided on Dragonstone rather than with her son at KL already indicates that she and Maegor were no longer all that close.

20 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Nothing you said regarding Alyssa logically follows the other.

I never said that it did. I pointed out that a smart person killing Visenya on her own island in her own castle would have ensured that Maegor's prices would slip through his fingers.

[chrisdaw]

And you know where that quote fits, so why bother? Waste of time.

[Leo of House Cartel]

Had a great first read through of Sons of The Dragon, Maegor was something else wasn't he?

It's a surprisingly funny tome, with scenes such as Maegor's seven on seven trial drawing genuine belly laughs. I would love to see The King's expression when his "six leal men" stepped forward, a bunch of misfits right out of some Dunk and Egg adventure. 

Maegor's reign lasting six years and sixty six days was also pretty funny in it's over the top cheesyness.

How about Vhagar setting The Conqueror's pyre ablaze? Poor old Balerion must have missed his buddy too much..

Things certainly get serious with the coming war against the Faith, and the tales of ashen heaps and scattered bones give a good insight into the madness of the era. We also get more examples of shady Hightower machinations, which are always welcome.

Princess Rhaena's history was pretty gut wrenching; being forced to marry her husbands killer, Tyanna's reveal of the children on the wedding day, her failed stabbing during the bedding and whatever punishment came with it, she was certainly drawn the short end of the stick. Why then did Maegor make young Princess Aerea his heir? I guess she was the best option present but still.

Props to Rhaena for escaping with her daughter, dragon and Blackfyre, always thought that was cool.

I wonder why Maegor didn't mount Balerion on his last day and bring fire and blood to his enemies, if he felt all else was lost. Perhaps this was his intent before he met his end.

 

 

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

3 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

I wonder why Maegor didn't mount Balerion on his last day and bring fire and blood to his enemies, if he felt all else was lost. Perhaps this was his intent before he met his end.

Maybe that was his intent, and maybe that's why he was offed by Aegon's Iron Throne. 

[Jaak]

13 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Princess Rhaena's history was pretty gut wrenching; being forced to marry her husbands killer, Tyanna's reveal of the children on the wedding day, her failed stabbing during the bedding and whatever punishment came with it, she was certainly drawn the short end of the stick. Why then did Maegor make young Princess Aerea his heir? I guess she was the best option present but still.

Props to Rhaena for escaping with her daughter, dragon and Blackfyre, always thought that was cool.

And making little sense. With Dreamfyre, why was she stuck at Crakehall and then Fair Isle?

If she later claims she wanted to stab Maegor with a small iron knife on their first night, then on their last night she had Blackfyre from his sleeping body. Why did she not make an end of him then and there if that was her attitude to him?

[Yucef Menaerys]

On 12/10/2017 at 0:51 AM, Lord Varys said:

I mean, if you think about it, even the story of Prince Vaegon the Dragonless is odd. There was no reason for this prince to remain dragonless in light of the fact that there was at least two wild dragons - Sheepstealer and the Cannibal - out there on Dragonstone in addition to whatever dragons hatched in those days.

I completely agree, it's extremely weird that any Targaryen wouldn't have a dragon, I assume that would be the number one priority for any Targ kid, a lot of people try to bring up the story of Vaegon the dragonless to claim that this is proof that not all Targaryens had the magical ability to ride dragons kinda like squibs in Harry Potter, this is a ridiculous idea IMO I think every Targaryen could ride dragons if they wanted, so the story of Vaegon the dragonless is completely non-sensical except if maybe he just decided he doesn't want to have any dragon which would be queer but possible.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

On 10/23/2017 at 6:13 AM, Lord Varys said:

We know the dragonlords didn't care about religion. There was religious freedom in Valyria, but the dragonlords were atheists. They didn't care about gods or religion.

I know they set themselves above the laws of gods and men... but where did we read that they were atheists?

Also, it's worth pointing out that in one of our other major religions, the Old Gods appear to be immortal trees who can retain the memories of bones they root. Or maybe the Old Gods are the ancestors spirits/souls/consciousnesses which can survive on inside these daemon trees.

And we know a warg's memories can linger on in their familiar... why not a sword?

And the dragons themselves bore the names of the Valyrian Gods... if ice preserves, and the Old Gods retain the spirits of the dead, while fire consumes, and the Valyrian Gods could be dragons birthed by sacrifice?

Quote

There burial rituals seem to be connected to the dragons they rode. It makes sense for them to burn their mortal remains without making a big religious thing out of that. Cremation is a very common thing in many cultures, anyway.

It does seem somehow connected, but cremation doesn't seem that common in Westeros, that's why it's remarkable. Just for perspective, you have a continent occasionally plagued by necromantic ice deamons who raise your dead from the ground to come and kill you during abnormally long winters... but it's the godless foreigners who burn their dead...

Quote

Apparently, heat/fire has an effect on the color of Valyrian steel. But that doesn't mean that has some great meaning.

No, I don't think it was the heat and fire... I think it was the fire and BLOOD. (Both for Aegon/Blackfyre and Ned/Ice imitation)

Quote

Why not? They knew that the fire couldn't harm the sword. And it had been Aegon's sword.

Because we have no reason to believe this was the norm, was Visenya burned with Darksister? And even if he blade isn't damaged like a normal sword the grip/pommel etc. would all get fucked up, which is fine, but we don't see anyone else getting blazed with their heirloom sword...

Personaly, I think there may be some parallel here to both those iron swords in the Stark Crypt and the creamsicle sword wielding Kings Dany runs by in her wake the dragon dream.