The Book of Swords - The Sons of the Dragon SPOILERS

[The Grey Wolf]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Just to clarify - I'm fine with the way it is written, and I actually complained that there too few intentional inconsistencies/mistakes/versions because TSotD isn't written with the same amount of detail as some of the later pieces.

The issue I have with the thing is that there are quite a few real mistakes in the story, and quite a few plot holes and other things that simply don't make a lot of sense. Especially the Quicksilver thing but also quite a few other things.

I'd not mind if the historian writing this would point out those things, telling us that his sources don't help his resolve this - but then I'd expect to at least present us with some theories as of what might have happened there.

Nobody has to know for a fact as to how the Poor Fellows could trap Aegon and Rhaena in a castle while they had at least one dragon, how Aegon acquired Quicksilver, why Rhaena and Dreamfyre weren't with him at the Gods Eye, how it is that Alyssa could hide herself and her two children and two dragons when Rhaena and Dreamfyre could not, how Vermithor and Silverwing were a real threat to Balerion, etc. - but a decent historian (and an author actually putting a lot of thought in the piece) would think about those mysteries, and offer solutions or at least speculations.

I do, too. And I'm neither Gyldayn, nor Yandel, nor George R. R. Martin.

The first can be answered by the Faith Militant killing Aegon's original dragon and injuring/driving away Dreamfyre so that Aegon and Rhaena could not fly away.

The second can be answered by someone claiming Quicksilver and flying her west to support Aegon and Rhaena (a good candidate for that would be a Velaryon Kingsguard - or even better a bastard son of Aenys I who had joined his Kingsguard) who then died there saving Aegon and/or the pregnant Rhaena from an assassin sent by Maegor/Tyanna so that Aegon himself can mount his late father's dragon.

The third could be explained by either Rhaena - due to the birth of the twins - and/or Dreamfyre being still too weak to fly to war (if George/Lord Baratheon entertaining the idea that 12-year-old Alysanne on Silverwing could challenge Maegor and Balerion then it is insane to assume that Rhaena/Dreamfyre would not have accompanied Aegon to war if they were able to do so).

The fourth is very hard. The best idea I could come up that would make sense is that Alyssa and her children fled Dragonstone on dragonback rather than by ship. That way they would be mobile and could hide on some small isles in Blackwater Bay, Shipbreaker Bay, and the Narrow Sea at large. The idea that the children were dragonless at that point makes little sense in my opinion, and neither does the idea that the sailors transporting not only the Queen Dowager and her young children but also two not-so-small dragons (assuming they would have agreed to take dragons aboard at all, which is a huge stretch) would not talk about that.

And the final thing could be helped by having Queen Alyssa herself becoming a dragonrider - by claiming Vhagar in the wake of Visenya's death. Vhagar, Vermithor, and Silverwing together could not only have challenged but could also have killed both Maegor and Balerion. The idea that the rebels would have been keen to risk the life of their young pretender and his little sister by challenging Balerion is pretty much insane, especially against as experienced and ruthless a dragonrider as Maegor. If GeorgeAnne/Ran & Linda want to make the possibility that Maegor may have committed suicide to make real sense - and I actually like that possibility - then the notion that Maegor may have believed he was done must make sense if you put yourself in his shoes.

And if you are in Maegor Targaryen's shoes then you are never done. Not while you control a beast as powerful as Balerion. What I - what anyone with Maegor's temperament and personality would do if he controlled a creature of that power - is not to cut his wrists but to mount his dragon and kill as many of the traitors as he could before the other dragonriders overwhelmed him. And the chances are not that bad that he could have killed most (or even all of them) before he himself died - assuming he would have died at all.

Another idea could be that Balerion actually abandoned Maegor - or refused to fly or bear him - for some strange reason. Then he would have been really done. But with the dragon at his command he had always better options than suicide. Just look at what Prince Aemond did after he lost the Iron Throne and KL and his entire army. Or take Prince Daemon. He throws his life away in the end. But does he meekly cut his wrists at Maidenpool? No, he takes Aemond and Vhagar with him. What do you think Maegor would have done when he felt all hope was lost? Cut his wrists and let his father's throne kill him? Or mount Balerion one last time to burn Storm's End and see whether he can take House Targaryen with him when he dies?

But if he knew he had to face Vhagar, Dreamfyre, Vermithor, and Silverwing this may have given him pause. Especially if Vhagar was significantly faster than Balerion at this point.

I agree.

On the subject of Maegor's suicide: Another possible contributing factor GRRM could write in is that Visenya's death actually dealt Maegor a major emotional blow that he hid from his supporters, which is actually brought up by Yandel himself in TWOIAF.

[Lord Varys]

25 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

I agree.

On the subject of Maegor's suicide: Another possible contributing factor GRRM could write in is that Visenya's death actually dealt Maegor a major emotional blow that he hid from his supporters, which is actually brought up by Yandel himself in TWOIAF.

I think that idea is sort of strange in light of the forcefulness and determination Maegor clearly shows in the aftermath of Visenya's death. At least within the framework of Gyldayn's narrative.

If we talk depression then Tyanna's apparent betrayal, the two additional monstrosities, and the death of Queen Jeyne should be the major causes for that.

The facts seem to indicate that Visenya and Maegor were no longer than close in the last years of Visenya's life. She removed herself to Dragonstone rather than live with Maegor and his queens at KL. She chose to leave Oldtown as soon as she could while Maegor decided to stay and hold court there for half a year.

That indicates that the marriage of Maegor and Tyanna led to an estrangement between mother and son.

But, frankly, Maegor doesn't really appear to be the kind of guy who would be troubled or stricken by the death of a mother who had lived as long as Visenya did. She died the second oldest Targaryen after Maester Aemon, after all. Perhaps Elaena reached such an age, too, but if she did we don't know that yet.

[The Grey Wolf]

15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I think that idea is sort of strange in light of the forcefulness and determination Maegor clearly shows in the aftermath of Visenya's death. At least within the framework of Gyldayn's narrative.

If we talk depression then Tyanna's apparent betrayal, the two additional monstrosities, and the death of Queen Jeyne should be the major causes for that.

You make a good point. Plus, that would build on Maegor's reaction to Alys's stillborn son very nicely. Please make it happen GRRM!

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, The Grey Wolf said:

You make a good point. Plus, that would build on Maegor's reaction to Alys's stillborn son very nicely. Please make it happen GRRM!

I think, in a sense that kind of thing is also the part of Yandel's narrative. This is what he says about Visenya's death:

Quote

The death of the Dowager Queen Visenya in 44 AC was a notable event although Maegor seemed to take it in his stride. She had been his greatest ally and supporter from birth, seeking his advancement over his elder brother Aenys, and doing what she could to secure his legacy.

It entertains the possibility that Maegor may have been affected more strongly by his mother's death that it appeared but it is not something that is given as fact or even a strong possibility. One would assume that Westerosi historians were interested in 'what if'-scenarios - like what would have happened had Queen Visenya lived another ten years, or what would have happened had Visenya's predeceased either the Conqueror or Aenys, etc.

But the idea that the monstrosities and his abilities to father any children greatly affected him is laid out with stronger emphasis:

Quote

Maegor’s wars against them were further compounded by his many marriages, as he strove to produce an heir. Yet no matter how many women he wedded—or bedded—he found himself childless. He made brides of women whom he had widowed—women of proved fertility—but the only children born of his seed proved monstrosities: misshapen, eyeless, limbless, or having the parts of man and woman both. His descent into true madness, some say, began with the first of these abominations.

 

[RhaegoTheUnborn]

I'm on my first re-read of TSOTD, and I have a question, who was Maegor a squire to? It says he was a squire at 8 years old, but it never mentions whom he squired for.

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

I'm on my first re-read of TSOTD, and I have a question, who was Maegor a squire to? It says he was a squire at 8 years old, but it never mentions whom he squired for.

We don't know. Could be the Corbray master-at-arms he had, could be some other knight. Could even have been Visenya herself. As a female warrior she may have had squires, too.

I'm sure it wasn't his father, since it doesn't seem these two spent much time together.

[RhaegoTheUnborn]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We don't know. Could be the Corbray master-at-arms he had, could be some other knight. Could even have been Visenya herself. As a female warrior she may have had squires, too.

I'm sure it wasn't his father, since it doesn't seem these two spent much time together.

Yeah, I get the interpretation that Aegon was much closer to Aenys. Which seems to be a by-product of Aegon & Visenya's relationship and no fault of Maegor's. I wonder how Aegon must've felt hearing of all the accomplishments (as far as physical ability goes) of his other son, the one he didn't raise, essentially.

[Lord Varys]

12 hours ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

Yeah, I get the interpretation that Aegon was much closer to Aenys. Which seems to be a by-product of Aegon & Visenya's relationship and no fault of Maegor's. I wonder how Aegon must've felt hearing of all the accomplishments (as far as physical ability goes) of his other son, the one he didn't raise, essentially.

Aegon acknowledged and rewarded Maegor for his prowess. He knighted him himself, after all. But considering that Aegon wasn't exactly an overly violent or cruel man chances are that he wasn't exactly proud of this son of his. If he was his son and not merely the son of his sister-wife.

He was family and thus they were protecting him but a sane person wouldn't have overlooked nor supported Maegor's sadistic tendencies, especially not when they were directed against the commoners and tales of his behavior spread. That would have been very bad propaganda.

[The Grey Wolf]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Aegon acknowledged and rewarded Maegor for his prowess. He knighted him himself, after all. But considering that Aegon wasn't exactly an overly violent or cruel man chances are that he wasn't exactly proud of this son of his. If he was his son and not merely the son of his sister-wife.

He was family and thus they were protecting him but a sane person wouldn't have overlooked nor supported Maegor's sadistic tendencies, especially not when they were directed against the commoners and tales of his behavior spread. That would have been very bad propaganda.

Where in the text does it say Maegor committed atrocities against the smallfolk prior to his reign? Apart from the episode with the horse at the age of eight and his treatment of Jonos Arryn's supporters (which is debatable) nothing springs to my mind. In fact, Maegor before becoming king comes off to me as quite sympathetic, being his brother's loyal fist and prior to that making a name for himself fighting pirates/hunting robber knights/winning tourneys. 

[Lord Varys]

24 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Where in the text does it say Maegor committed atrocities against the smallfolk prior to his reign? Apart from the episode with the horse at the age of eight and his treatment of Jonos Arryn's supporters (which is debatable) nothing springs to my mind. In fact, Maegor before becoming king comes off to me as quite sympathetic, being his brother's loyal fist and prior to that making a name for himself fighting pirates/hunting robber knights/winning tourneys. 

I was referring to the treatment of the stable boy there. That was just disgusting and showed that Prince Maegor couldn't exactly control his anger. The stable boy had nothing to do with his injury.

We don't have any other concrete tales of Maegor's cruelty but it is mentioned that this was a known trait in the man. Aegon and Maegor's family would have known much more about than we ever will. Maegor is little more than the kind of disappointment Aerion Brightflame was for Maekar, or Aegon the Unworthy was for Viserys II.

Or Joffrey is for Robert and Tywin.

[Knight of the Winged Pig]

 

THOUGHTS ON “THE SONS OF THE DRAGON”

 

.The fact that Aegon the Conqueror had two wives leads me to think he was a sorcerer as well as a dragonrider.

.Small sidenote: why are the Targaryen looks considered so beautiful be everybody? I thought different regions had different standards concerning both male and female beauty.

.Man, Aenys being a cry-baby and all this stuff reminds me of Robert Arryn.

.Man, I can feel for the poor boy when he lost his mother.

.I think Visenya used some poison or alchemy to conceive Maegor, thus causing her son’s insanity.

.So, Aenys was clearly his father’s favorite, despite his lack of talent in martial pursuits.

.Hah, that’s why I always believed that “Prince of Dragonstone” is NOT equal to heir! Are you listening, Rhaenyra Targaryen?

.Nah, don’t think it was a calumny. Maegor just had to do what his main series parallel, Joffrey, has done.

.Man, those Corbrays are THE cream of warriors!

.Well, at least poor Aenys tried.

.Cruelty to animals, pyromania… I wonder if Maegor also wet his bed when he was a child, for those three symptoms indicate psychopathy.

.Oh, man, I feel very bad for the stableboy.

.Why do the worst Targaryens ever (Maegor, Daemon, Brynden Rivers) need to bear Dark Sister?

.Well, as testified by the dragonseeds, it is not necessary to be born of incest for a child to be a dragonrider. The Valyrians were just uber-racist.

.Considering that children born of incest run a higher risk of mental or physical problems, it is natural that the act is condemned.

.To clarify things, I am by no means very religious or pious, but I think the Faith had it right here.

.Aegon was right- no need to make an enemy of the Faith, especially when the people you attempt to govern follow it.

.So, the Westerosi smallfolk is clearly anti-incest.

.Well, first cousin marriages were not unusual even in the 19^th century, so I have no objection to the match.

.All the more ironic that Maegor later took Rhaena to wife, but under very different circumstances.

.Maegor’s marriage to Ceryse (especially when one considers their respective ages) reminds me of Henry VIII’s wedding to Catherine of Aragon.

.Man, Targaryen promiscuity never ceases to amaze and/or disgust me.

.Hah, we are speaking about a very ironic twist of fate!

.As we see later, the fault lay with Maegor, who never had a living child, no matter how many times he tried.

.Would like to know more about the Saan pirate- this family excites me because of Salladhor- and the Giant of the Trident.

.All the more ironic that Maegor later roe the deadliest dragon in the world.

.Normally, I am not a huge fan of Dorne (I do like Quentyn and Arianne Martell, though), but kudos to them for beating the crap out of the Targaryens.

.And that’s how the Red Keep came into being.

.So, the first three Hands were Orys Baratheon (gotta love this guy!), Osmund Strong (what was the seat of House Strong before they got Harrenhal?) and Alyn Stokeworth.

.Well, Aegon the Conqueror left behind a fabled reputation not only as an invader, but mostly as a statesman.

.And, Aenys is crowned!

.All this stuff about the sword is a heavy foreshadowing of the Blackfyre Rebellions.

.So, in case I understand well, the smallfolk preferred Aenys, while a part of the nobility favored Maegor.

.Man, Visenya is a shrew in every sense of the word!

.Well, it is realistic that people would bristle under the conquerors. Attitudes don’t change in a day, after all.

.Aegon made a grave mistake in bestowing the castle to House Qoherys.

.I absolutely hate Gargon the Guest!

.I bet Harren the Red was just a commoner who found many people opposed to the new regime and was charismatic enough to acquire a band of followers.

.Well, Gargon’s privy parts being consumed by animals fits to the pattern of Amory Lorch being devoured by a bear.

.Man, I love all this smallfolk agency!

.Aenys’ failure to act swiftly was his first mistake.

.Well, Jonos Arryn was just a murderous usurper, but Lodos is another example of smallfolk agency.

.And here we have the Vulture King- I think, as many other analysts, that he came from House Blackmont.

.However, a lot of his followers were plain smallfolk- it is clear that, no matter what the TV show is trying to tell us, the average Joe of Westeros was not a Targ fanboy or fangirl.

.Ouch, poor Harmon! Why do all badass Stormlanders need to suffer?

.No matter how popular he were as a prince, Aenys’ indecisiveness made him look incompetent and foolish.

.Allard Royce- another badass is a very cool family!

.So, Maegor earns every inch of his epithet even before usurping the throne.

.Aenys’ promise to Goren reminds of me of a scene in “The Odyssey”, where the sea-nymph Calypso promises Hermes that she will do anything he desires of her, but is tricked into letting the captive Odysseus go.

.It is very clear that Deria aided the Vulture King- after all, she was attacking the same men who were demanding her to be sent to a brothel.

.Man, I adore Orys’ revenge on Walter Wyl!

.Hmmm, a Baratheon having extracted justice, a Davos, missing body parts and onions… all this has a very Stannis vibe, which I interpret as GRRM telling us that Stannis is still there and that traitors and usurpers (are you listening, Benioff and Weiss?) will soon taste his wroth.

.Lady Caron- another badass woman, much like Johanna Lannister.

.I daresay that “Savage Sam” is a better nickname than “Sam the Slayer”.

.And, here goes the Vulture King!

.So, that’s how Harren the Red went down, a badass to the last breath. And, Bernarr Brune is probably an ancestor of Lothor Brune, who serves Littlefinger.

.And now we have Maegor elevated to Handship, a measure Aenys would soon regret.

.I have nothing with Aenys’ scholarly pursuits, nothing at all, I just think that he ought to restrain Maegor.

.Hmmm, constantly changing one’s opinion is not a good way to rule.

.The name Vaella is just unlucky- another Targaryen girl named Vaella was rejected by the Great Council of 233 for being a lackwit.

.I wonder why Alys Harroway agreed to marry Maegor.

.Well, polygamy is denounced by most civilized nations in our world, so…

.Hey, buddy, do you understand that what you did is shocking, horrifying and utterly misogynistic?

.We knew about Murmison being ineffective from Maester Pylos- chapters involving Stannis always help us broaden our knowledge on Westerosi history.

.So, Aenys is first anti-incest, then he is pro-incest.

.I do not feel bad for Maegor being stripped of a title given to him unofficially, especially when he was a lawbreaker and an exile.

.Well, the Faith’s reaction was natural.

.What Aenys needed to be told was that Westeros is NOT Valyria.

.I think that Stannis, who is an atheist, would side with the Faith, for he is adamant in insisting that the laws are above all.

.Ser Raymont Baratheon- I am going to guess that he was Davos’ younger brother.

.So, once more, Aenys rejected the violent solution.

.Smallfolk rebellion at its fullest!

.Well, I am sure Visenya poisoned her double-nephew.

.That’s the end of Aenys’ reign- he had good intentions, but was too weak and indecisive, making him unfit to rule.

.So, Maegor returns (and soon the realm will weep).

.Poor Grand Maester Gawen…

.Man, dragons in the sky are not a good omen for the common people of Westeros.

.I loved Ser Guyard Morrigen and I quite like Ser Damon, as well.

.So, a Trial of the Seven!

.Maegor’s seven: five Crownladers (himself, Dick Bean, Bernarr Brune, Rayford Rosby and Lucifer Massey), a Riverlander (Guy Lothston) and a hedge knight of uncertain origin, but I guess Blackhull is at Crackclaw Point.

.The other seven: two Stormlanders (Damon and Harys Horpe, btw I love the Massey-Horpe rivalry!), two Reachmen (a Beesbury bastard and Ser Aegon Ambrose), a Riverlander (Lyle Bracken) and two people of unknown origins (Ser Willam the Wanderer and the septon-knight).

.So, the Warrior’s Sons had a broader coalition, since they found champions from more regions than Maegor and they also had a broader appeal to the smallfolk, as well.

.Maegor emerged victorious, but with the head wound.

.Well, when you are facing a monster, you don’t need an alliance with the divine to convince yourself you are on the right side.

.Ser Horys Hill and Wat the Hewer- more badass smallfolk heroes!

.So, the Westerlands appear to be in favor of Prince Aegon, but do not want to suffer Maegor’s wroth.

.Man, Tyanna makes my skin crawl.

.I am going to bet whatever you want that Tyanna performed something similar to blood magic to resurrect Maegor.

.All this stuff about the burning of the Sept convinces me that it will be dragonfire, not wildfire, the substance that will destroy the Sept of Baelor at the end of TWOW.

.However, the true strength of the Faith Militant was in the Poor Fellows, not the Warrior’s Sons.

.That’s how Bitterbridge got its name, from the slaughter of nine thousand smallfolk. And, 250+ years later, at the same place, Loras Tyrell massacred all those foot soldiers from the Stormlands and the Reach that were going to join Stannis.

.Pour one for Wat the Hewer, one of the most heroic peasants in Westeros!

.Lord Rupert Falwell, the Fighting Fool- hilarious!

.Lyonel Lorch- hey, not all Lorches were of the same sort with Ser Amory.

.The Terricks, Wayns and Lychesters- three minor Riverlands Houses, also defied the tyrant.

.Man, the Fighting Fool should go to the annals as a very competent warrior. By the way, I would like to know what were the names of the Kingsguard knights he slew.

.Big Jon Hogg once more proves that the Crownlands are the biggest source of the Targaryen loyalists.

.Wat the Hewer’s mutilation was painful to read.

.So, Grand Maester Myres is the second of the three. Maegor has so far made war against two of the pan-Westerosi institutions, the Faith and the Citadel.

.Killing a dozen septons- with this in mind, I start thinking that Baelor’s extreme desire to please the Faith may have stemmed from a deep regret of Maegor’s actions.

.So, Alys Harroway had entirely gone over to Team Maegor and was not annoyed by the fact that he was a mass murderer, a lawbreaker and an active polygamist.

.If the High Septon had made common cause with Prince Aegon they would have won.

.On the other hand, the High Septon was not just opposed to Maegor taking a second wife and ousting his niece, but to the whole lot of Valyrian customs of incest and polygamy.

.And this is how Maegor’s Holdfast came into being.

.I am going to bet Tyanna was the first Master (or Mistress) of Whisperers. And, we have a Varys connection when the text says she supposedly talked with spiders.

.”The King’s raven”- so, she is not only a proto-Varys, but also a proto-Bloodraven.

.The struggle of the Poor Fellows is just dramatic.

.We knew about Septon Moon, but now I am dying to learn more of Ragged Silas and Dennis the Lame.

.Poxy Jeyne Poore- a new level of badass smallfolk agency!

.Man, I adore the Red Dog of the Hills!

.So, the Faith Militant still has found sufficient acceptance that Maegor needs to outlaw it again.

.Man, Houses Blanetree, Terrick, Deddings, Lychester and Wayn meet a fiery fate on the orders of Visenya.

.So, she did not limit her activities in the Reach, but also brought dragonfire to the Riverlands, 90 years before Aemond Targaryen, who also happened to ride Vhagar.

.And Maegor devastates the westerlands, burning the Doggetts, the Broomes, the Falwells, the Lorches, the Myatts and even more Houses. Isn’t there a single region of Westeros that did not suffer dragonfire under the Targaryens?

.I can feel the despair of the citizens of Oldtown.

.And, all those preparations were for nothing.

.If one sits down and thinks, it seems that, in the first half of the Targaryen dynasty, the major power that resisted the dragons was Oldtown, seat of the Faith and House Hightower.

.Yeah, he was surely murdered.

.Well, evidence points towards Morgan Hightower. And the motive was the fear of Lord Martyn that both Oldtown and its ruling House would be extinguished by Maegor.

.The fact that Lord Martyn took immediate action after the High Septon’s death supports the theory that Ser Morgan killed the man under Lord Martyn’s orders.

.Well, the way the text is written makes it almost certain that they were forced to appoint Septon Pater, because he was perhaps the only one among the Most Devout who would have no objections to Maegor’s deeds.

.And now, the tyrant pardons Ser Morgan. Yeah, this gives even more credence to the claim he had murdered the High Septon.

.Man, forcing the former Warrior’s Sons kill their own ex-comrades- brutal and harsh for no reason at all.

.And this is the THIRD time Maegor outlaws the Faith Militant. Yet, once more, his decree had no effect.

.Ceryse had no other choice, truly. I am going to bet that the ambitious Lord Hightower persuaded or forced her to participate in the “second consummation”.

.Prince Aegon moves at last!

.So, while his base of power was at the Westerlands, most of the Houses mentioned to have given him support (Vance, Charlton, Frey, Paege, Piper, Roote, Parren) are from the Riverlands.

.Hey, we have a rare example of a decent Frey!

.Plus, we also have a decent Tarbeck, while the Reynes are not mentioned to have taken part in the uprising.

.Man, House Westerling is just plain unlucky.

.Some pockets of support for the young Prince come from the Vale (House Corbray), the North (Denys Snow) and the Stormlands (a younger son of House Connington).

.It seems that the Dustins were actively participating in southron politics, at least for the first half of the Targaryen era.

.Tyanna maybe was right. However, if Winterfell, Storm’s End, Casterly Rock and the Eyrie were against Maegor, why did they not marshal the whole of their forces?

.Well, considering that the Harroways are the Hand’s family and that the Tullys owe their high position to the Targaryens, it is not shocking that they cast their lot with the tyrant.

.What is more puzzling is the stance of the three Reach lords (Caswell, Rowan, Merryweather).

.Man, the battle near the Gods’ Eye bears an eerie resemblance to the Fishfeed, with Prince Aegon being trapped the same way the greens were.

.That was the end of Prince Aegon, the uncrowned, yet still rightful heir.

.Ser Willam Whistler… where was he from?

.Those Corbrays appear to be most lethal fighters, I say it once more.

.After all Maegor had done to the Faith, the rift would never be healed.

.Man, the Red Dog disguising his men as hedge knights to kill Maegor’s lickspittles- what a revolting movement!

.It would be awesome if Moon was, at some point, elected High Septon.

.Well, the fact that the smallfolk supported the Poor Fellows seals the deal for me.

.And here start Maegor’s terrifying issues with childbirth.

.So, Grand Maester Desmond was the third.

.And, Tyanna once more whispers her poison words.

.Was there any truth in Tyanna’s accusations? Don’t know. However, the whole thing has an Anne Boleyn vibe.

.Man, gruesomely executing 32 men and then completely wiping the Harroways, a House staunchly loyal to Maegor, out- no wonder the whole of the realm soon turned against him.

.So, that is how House Towers got Harrenhal, but in a few decades they also died out and the Strongs took the castle.

.Well, it can be said that the curse affected both the Butterwells and the Darrys.

.Subsequently, Visenya dies and Alyssa escapes.

.The murder of Prince Viserys is heartbreaking- every time we think Maegor has reached the peak of his brutality, he ups the ante once more.

.What follows is even more demented and sick- the murder of the workmen. OK, Maegor, we got it, you do not seem to have an ounce of compassion for your smallfolk.

.Well, considering that Maegor had done all sorts of unthinkable deeds, I think that it was not a rumor, but truth.

.So, he now orders the Dragonpit to be built at the site of his first atrocity as a king.

.Somehow, I don’t think that the prisoners lived for long. After all, the whole affair about using captive labor bears a resemblance to Roose Bolton rebuilding Winterfell.

.And, this is the sad end of Poxy Jeyne Poore and Ser Horys Hill, badass peasant leaders to their last breath.

.The silent majority however is still not dismayed.

.Now the tyrant takes the war to a new level, killing not only members of the Faith Militant, but everybody who worships the gods of their fathers.

.So, Silver Denys was not Maegor’s bastard, after all.

.Now, we are jumping to the whole Black Brides affair.

.Maegor finally married the girl his mom wanted for him, but still without her consent.

.I wonder, what happened with Rhaena’s daughters? Were their dynastic claims put forward in the Great Council of 101?

.The known riders of Dreamfyre- Princess Rhaena and Queen Helaena, women born, bred and died in tragedy.

.So, it is possible that after the tyrant’s death, Rhaena married Androw.

.Jeyne Westerling- man, the name is very unlucky.

.The pattern of killing loyalists continues. The ingratitude of the Targaryens is disgusting.

.Man, what Tyanna did to Rhaena (blackmail her with the lives of her daughters) is very cruel.

.Maegor’s wedding night with the Black Brides is the definition of marital rape.

.So, what caused all those monstrous births? Was Maegor cursed? Was it the Targaryen incest? Was it Tyanna’s poisons? I personally lean towards the second.

.”His privy parts were poisoned, his seed full of worms”- loved this phrase.

.Well, Maegor accusing Tyanna for all this and her confession under torture reminds me of Aerys accusing the women he was raping for Rhaella’s stillbirths.

.Elinor’s stillbirth reminds me of Daenerys’ Rhaego- proof that Dany is going to be a second Maegor? Likely.

.As Jim Morrison would say, “this is the end, beautiful friend”.

.So, the timely intervention of House Baratheon saved the realm from the madman, much like Robert’s Rebellion did two centuries later.

.Man, all this “Rogar/Robar” is a bit annoying.

.Well, there is justice in the world, after all.

.The tyrant was unrepentant to the end. I pity poor Lord Hayford.

.Maegor, Viserys I, Rhaenyra, Aerys II, Joffrey “Baratheon” have been slashed by the Iron Throne, so it is possible that the throne itself punishes unjust kings.

.I am glad the tyrant is dead.

.And so begins the reign of Jaehaerys I, the Conciliator! Three cheers, everybody!

[LiveFirstDieLater]

7 minutes ago, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

 .And so begins the reign of Jaehaerys I, the Conciliator! Three cheers, everybody!

1. Wayyyyy tooo much

2. Why start every line with a period?

3. Dilly Dilly

[Knight of the Winged Pig]

3 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

1. Wayyyyy tooo much

2. Why start every line with a period?

3. Dilly Dilly

They were supposed to be bullet points, for I am just transcribing some of my thoughts. However, if an admin sees a problem, I will delete them.

I did not force you to read all of it. In fact, no one is forced to read any post here, I think.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

5 minutes ago, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

They were supposed to be bullet points, for I am just transcribing some of my thoughts. However, if an admin sees a problem, I will delete them.

I did not force you to read all of it. In fact, no one is forced to read any post here, I think.

Just trying to be funny, I'm not offended, more power to you and the long post in general. Cheers

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

The fact that Aegon the Conqueror had two wives leads me to think he was a sorcerer as well as a dragonrider.

 

Not very likely. Aenar the Exile might have been, although I'd not even bet on that. But there is no hint whatsoever that Aegon was interested in magic or sorcery.

1 hour ago, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

Small sidenote: why are the Targaryen looks considered so beautiful be everybody? I thought different regions had different standards concerning both male and female beauty.

 

People are sucking up to the rulers and George himself really likes this Valyrian look. Just read 'The Glass Flower'. But then, people in Westeros all look pretty much alike. Even the Dornishmen are just a little bit darker than the other Westerosi people who are basically all whites with different hair colors.

1 hour ago, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

Hah, that’s why I always believed that “Prince of Dragonstone” is NOT equal to heir! Are you listening, Rhaenyra Targaryen?

It wasn't in the days of the Conqueror. But when Aenys gave Prince Aegon, the Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne, the title 'Prince of Dragonstone' the tradition that the Heir Apparent gets that title was first established. Jaehaerys I's three heirs Aemon, Baelon, and Viserys were all Princes of Dragonstone, Daemon wanted the title as Viserys I's presumptive heir, and Rhaenyra got the title when Viserys I named her his Heir Apparent.

1 hour ago, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

.So, Aenys is first anti-incest, then he is pro-incest.

Not really. Not wanting that 13-year-old Maegor marries your newborn daughter isn't really an opposition to incest. It is an opposition to Maegor marrying your daughter.

[The Grey Wolf]

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I was referring to the treatment of the stable boy there. That was just disgusting and showed that Prince Maegor couldn't exactly control his anger. The stable boy had nothing to do with his injury.

We don't have any other concrete tales of Maegor's cruelty but it is mentioned that this was a known trait in the man. Aegon and Maegor's family would have known much more about than we ever will. Maegor is little more than the kind of disappointment Aerion Brightflame was for Maekar, or Aegon the Unworthy was for Viserys II.

Or Joffrey is for Robert and Tywin.

The stableboy was a one-off incident so far as we know. Nowhere prior to Maegor's reign is it is said that he was known for his cruelty to anyone. Indeed, prior to his head wound and coma Maegor appears to be much more in control of himself.

In fact, the only censure I recall is that despite being respected for his prowess in battle and many feats of arms none could fail to note he was savage in battle and wasn't overly nice to people he knocked down, which is a far cry from what you're suggesting.

Indeed, I am of the opinion that if Maegor were as monstrous as he was during his reign beforehand no way in Seven Hells would he have been Hand for two whole years of peace.

[Knight of the Winged Pig]

12 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Not very likely. Aenar the Exile might have been, although I'd not even bet on that. But there is no hint whatsoever that Aegon was interested in magic or sorcery.

People are sucking up to the rulers and George himself really likes this Valyrian look. Just read 'The Glass Flower'. But then, people in Westeros all look pretty much alike. Even the Dornishmen are just a little bit darker than the other Westerosi people who are basically all whites with different hair colors.

It wasn't in the days of the Conqueror. But when Aenys gave Prince Aegon, the Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne, the title 'Prince of Dragonstone' the tradition that the Heir Apparent gets that title was first established. Jaehaerys I's three heirs Aemon, Baelon, and Viserys were all Princes of Dragonstone, Daemon wanted the title as Viserys I's presumptive heir, and Rhaenyra got the title when Viserys I named her his Heir Apparent.

Not really. Not wanting that 13-year-old Maegor marries your newborn daughter isn't really an opposition to incest. It is an opposition to Maegor marrying your daughter.

Are not families of sorcerers mentioned specifically as the ones in Old Valyria who used to practice polygamy? The Targaryens maintained a lot of their Valyrian customs, after all.

I was just referring to the standards, for example golden hair and green eyes are the ideal in the Westerlands, black hair and grey eyes in the North, etc.

I knew about Aemon and Baelon named Princes of Dragonstone, but could you please cite the passage where Viserys as cited as having been named Prince?

Thank you very much Lord Varys.

[Lord Varys]

8 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

The stableboy was a one-off incident so far as we know. Nowhere prior to Maegor's reign is it is said that he was known for his cruelty to anyone. Indeed, prior to his head wound and coma Maegor appears to be much more in control of himself.

This makes it pretty clear that people knew what Maegor was long before he usurped the throne:

Quote

His brother Maegor, taller, broader, and fearsomely strong, had no patience for any of that, but lived for war, tourneys, and battle. He was rightly regarded as one of the finest knights in Westeros, though his savagery in the field and his harshness toward defeated foes was oft remarked upon as well. King Aenys sought always to please; when faced with difficulties, he would answer with soft words, whereas Maegor’s reply was ever steel and fire. Grand Maester Gawen wrote that Aenys trusted everyone, Maegor no one. The king was easily influenced, Gawen observed, swaying this way and that like a reed into the wind, like as not to heed whichever councillor last had his ear. Prince Maegor, on the other hand, was rigid as an iron rod, unyielding, unbending.

 

8 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

In fact, the only censure I recall is that despite being respected for his prowess in battle and many feats of arms none could fail to note he was savage in battle and wasn't overly nice to people he knocked down, which is a far cry from what you're suggesting.

How so? Prince Aerion shows the same type of savagery. He liked to kill people, too, and he wasn't the kind of guy you would expect a pardon from, either. And the stable boy is essentially a worse version of the Mycah incident. That's what Joffrey could have done, too, making it very clear that Maegor liked to torture people.

The head wound didn't change his behavior at all. 

8 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Indeed, I am of the opinion that if Maegor were as monstrous as he was during his reign beforehand no way in Seven Hells would he have been Hand for two whole years of peace.

As Ran has said above somewhere, Maegor was a monster in the service of his family. Aenys obviously had need for him and didn't fault him for how he dealt with his enemies. They were never close but they got along while Maegor was Hand. And it is not that Maegor did cause any war or conflicts during the decades his royal father, did he? Aerion could control himself, too, when Maekar was around.

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

Are not families of sorcerers mentioned specifically as the ones in Old Valyria who used to practice polygamy? The Targaryens maintained a lot of their Valyrian customs, after all.

That's how things were in Valyria. It is said that those sorcerer princes took more than one wife when it suited them, but we don't know whether the Targaryens were such people - or had such sorcerer princes among them. Aenar could have been one. Aegon was not because Valyria was long gone by that point Aegon took two sister-wives on the basis of the few precedents for polygamy there were in his family's history.

2 minutes ago, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

I was just referring to the standards, for example golden hair and green eyes are the ideal in the Westerlands, black hair and grey eyes in the North, etc.

Is that so? We know that the Starks, Lannisters, etc. look the way you describe, but nobody says that this is a beauty ideal. The Valyrian looks are. Presumably both because George likes those looks and because they are the royal house and set the standards.

The Lannisters are generally also seen as very handsome and beautiful but nobody describes the Starks that way.

2 minutes ago, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

I knew about Aemon and Baelon named Princes of Dragonstone, but could you please cite the passage where Viserys as cited as having been named Prince?

It is said that Jaehaerys I named Viserys Prince of Dragonstone and Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne after the Great Council of 101 AC supported his claim.

The thing is really the same as the 'Prince of Wales' thing in the British monarchy. 

[Knight of the Winged Pig]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

That's how things were in Valyria. It is said that those sorcerer princes took more than one wife when it suited them, but we don't know whether the Targaryens were such people - or had such sorcerer princes among them. Aenar could have been one. Aegon was not because Valyria was long gone by that point Aegon took two sister-wives on the basis of the few precedents for polygamy there were in his family's history.

Is that so? We know that the Starks, Lannisters, etc. look the way you describe, but nobody says that this is a beauty ideal. The Valyrian looks are. Presumably both because George likes those looks and because they are the royal house and set the standards.

The Lannisters are generally also seen as very handsome and beautiful but nobody describes the Starks that way.

It is said that Jaehaerys I named Viserys Prince of Dragonstone and Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne after the Great Council of 101 AC supported his claim.

The thing is really the same as the 'Prince of Wales' thing in the British monarchy. 

Thanks. I was a bit confused, but you cleared it up for me.