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Lord Varys

The Book of Swords - The Sons of the Dragon SPOILERS

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On 9-2-2018 at 10:55 PM, animalia said:

Does the paperback version fix the issues with inaccuracies?

Haven't read anything about that yet. However, this errata page contains all those found thus far, with confirmed corrections (for as far as they are known).

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6 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Haven't read anything about that yet. However, this errata page contains all those found thus far, with confirmed corrections (for as far as they are known).

Dang all those extra inconsistencies are what have kept me out of buying the book. I don't suppose any fan has created a "cleaned up" version of Sons Of The Dragon" have they?

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Posted (edited)
On 10/9/2017 at 10:06 PM, Lord Varys said:

No problem.

But you can buy and view ebooks also at your computer, tablet, etc. via an app. It is not that difficult.

I leave with the eerie remark that Maegor and Ceryse reconciled after he came to Oldtown for his coronation (and the executions of a lot of people) and even took her back with him to KL where she shared his bed again.

The Tyanna finale is spun in a way that indicates that she might actually have poisoned the children. She calmly confesses the truth when Maegor and his buddies are merely setting up the torture instruments. However, Maegor had already decided that she was to blame prior to that.

Visenya gets a pretty bad exit, having her flesh melt away in old age, becoming very haggard and thin.

The piece focuses very strongly on Maegor's opponents - the High Septons and the many champions and protagonists of the Faith Militant. Damon Morrigen was the grand captain of the Warrior's Sons, and Joffrey Doggett and Septon Moon are not just two dudes. They were major players. Maegor had even a female leader of the Poor Fellows fighting against him.

Oh, and we get all the names of the champions during the Trial of Seven. I don't recall them right now but the first one to agree to stand with Maegor is a commoner named Dick Bean - a very touching scene - who shames the knights into standing with Maegor (the Kingsguard could not accompany Maegor and Visenya to KL on dragonback).

One is the squire of the late Alyn Stokeworth, Bernarr Brune.

Spoiler

Only then did the first knight step forward. “This bean shames us all,” he shouted. “Are there no true knights here? No leal men?” The speaker was Bernarr Brune, the squire who had slain Harren the Red and been knighted by King Aenys himself. His scorn drove others to offer their swords. The names of the four Maegor chose are writ large in the history of Westeros: Ser Bramm of Blackhull, a hedge knight; Ser Rayford Rosby; Ser Guy Lothston, called Guy the Glutton; and Ser Lucifer Massey, Lord of Stonedance. The names of the seven Warrior’s Sons have likewise come down to us. They were: Ser Damon Morrigen, called Damon the Devout, Grand Captain of the Warrior’s Sons; Ser Lyle Bracken; Ser Harys Horpe, called Death’s Head Harry; Ser Aegon Ambrose; Ser Dickon Flowers, the Bastard of Beesbury; Ser Willam the Wanderer; and Ser Garibald of the Seven Stars, the septon knight. 

 

 

Very interesting parallels with Dunk’s trial by 7. Of course the “no true knights” reteric directed at a group was in both instances but a bit inverse, in that dunk was battling against a Targ while Maegor was the one in need in his fight.  

A bracken fought against a targ in both instances 

House Lothston seems to be extremely loyal to the targs for their entirety even after The unworthy as we know Danelle at least sent Aid to Bloodraven at whitewalls (and were eventually awarded the curse of harenhall and a hand of the king gig for that apparent lotalty) so it makes sense their ancestor stood in

Ill throw out that House Beesbury seems all over the place in their beliefs of the royal inheritance. 

The Rosby guy is makes sense in that they surrendered peacefully to the targs choosing them over House Hoare probably and apparently once again

Speaking of Hoares the man who killed Harren the red Bernarr Brune was also the guy who rallied the troops. Dick bean stood while Brune shamed them. Only thing odd with that is he was knighted by Aenys himself and you’d think he wouldn’t be so fond of Maegor especially at the usurping coronation. 

Does all of this sound/work ok? Most are obviously pure speculation obviously but I think the names across history that long is somewhat important.

 

Edited by One-eyed Misbehavin
Misread a detail

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On 13.2.2018. at 3:01 PM, Blooddragon said:

Do you think that Rhaella Targaryen (daughter of Aegon) could've been mother of Otto Hightower?

When we last heard of her she was at the Hightower and was saved by Lord Hightower. I believe that she could've married one of his heirs out of gratitude or maybe simply they fell in love and that was the reason why the Lord saved her. 

That also can explain why Ser Otto was a hand to Jaehaerys I and why his daughter married Viserys I.

I would be glad if someone told me their opinion on this. Thanks.

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16 hours ago, Blooddragon said:

I would be glad if someone told me their opinion on this. Thanks.

Well, I remember tossing around the idea that Otto Hightower may have had a Targaryen grandmother, explaining why Lord Beesbury claimed that Rhaenyra had more Targaryen blood than her half-brother. But that was when only TPatQ was out. With TRP it seems that neither Otto nor Alicent had so much as a drop of Targaryen blood since it simply doesn't come up when Viserys I's decision to marry Alicent comes up in the text. When Alicent is discussed they say that her noble Hightower blood makes her a proper queen and all, and nobody can really object to the king's decision (presumably despite the fact that Alicent is merely a knight's daughter, the granddaughter of a previous Lord of Oldtown).

One should assume that it would have come up that Otto's grandmother may have been Princess Rhaella Targaryen if that had been the case.

But then - as we later learned George actually only laid out the reigns of Aegon, Aenys, Maegor, Viserys I, the Dance, and the Regency of Aegon III in detail.

About Jaehaerys I's long reign there exists little more than the stuff we got in TWoIaF. We simply don't know yet what happened to Rhaena and her daughters. Which means that it isn't impossible that it turns out that Rhaella is Otto's grandmother. The decision to make her a septa was made by Maegor, and Rhaena, Alyssa Velaryon, and Jaehaerys I may have not approved of that after the fact. And the Lord of Oldtown apparently went out of his way to protect Rhaella from Maegor's wrath, defying his command. It is certainly possible that she became his ward after that, and was eventually married to his son or grandson.

With Jaehaerys I and Alysanne not yet married in 48 AC it also wouldn't be very wise of Alyssa Velaryon to remove Rhaella permanently from the pool of viable heirs by making her a septa. Maegor didn't really want Aegon's girls to succeed him. He just made Aerea his presumptive heir until he finally had the (male) heir of his own body he so desperately wanted. For his purpose one grandniece - the elder one - was enough. The spare Rhaella was not necessary. But if Jaehaerys I and Alysanne had had trouble producing (healthy) children everybody would have looked to Aerea and Rhaella as the ones to continue the Targaryen bloodline and producing potential heirs of Jaehaerys I.

Still, in light of the fact that we have this whole 'nine lesser claimants' thing at the Great Council of 101 AC, it is not that likely that Otto Hightower - the Hand who presided over the council - and his children had Targaryen blood. After all, some of those lesser claimants must have been descendants of Rhaena, Aerea, and Rhaella since we do know that the descendants of Jaehaerys I supported either Laenor Velaryon or Prince Viserys.

There is also the possibility that there were illegitimate Targaryens - or the descendants of illegitimate Targaryens around. Say, grandchildren of acknowledged bastards of King Aenys, (children of) bastards of Jaehaerys I (if such people existed) or acknowledged bastards of Jaehaerys I's sons Aemon, Baelon, and Vaegon.

Such could also have made up part of the lesser claimants. But at least some of those lesser claimants should have been legitimate descendants of King Aenys through the female line - which means they must have been descendants of Rhaena, Aerea, or Rhaella.

For Rhaena TSotD introduced a potential third husband in the guise of the second son of the Lord of Fair Isle, Androw Farman. It may turn out that Rhaena married this man after Maegor's death, also explaining why Jaehaerys I didn't take both his sisters to wife like Aegon the Conqueror did. After all, Targaryen tradition in Aegon's days demanded that a man marry his older sister. If Jaehaerys I was already as deeply in love with Alysanne as he later was at the age of fourteen tradition should have caused to marry Alysanne in addition to Rhaena - like Aegon married Rhaenys in addition to Visenya.

However, that never happened. And it is very odd that Jaehaerys I would marry Alysanne in a political/arranged rather than his older sister who had not only been queen at Maegor's side and a pretender queen at the side of Jaehaerys I's older brother, Prince Aegon, but had also proven her fertility by giving Aegon twin girls.

One assumes there would have been a discussion what to do with Princess/Queen Dowager Rhaena Targaryen. A very good explanation as to why she didn't marry a third king may very well have been that she wanted to finally follow her heart and settle down with the man she loved on Fair Isle.

Depending how many children they had there could have been both Targaryen-Farmans and other Westermen with Targaryen-Farman blood trying to lay claim to the Iron Throne in 101 AC.

And if Rhaella ended up marrying into House Hightower then Otto - being of the lesser branch of House Hightower - might have refused to support the claim of his older brother, the Lord of Oldtown, when the man presented his claim at the Great Council. After all, his way to take control of the Iron Throne was much more subtle, revolving around getting his daughter into the pants of various kings and princes.

The question who Aerea married in the end is also very interesting. But we don't know anything about that at this point, either.

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@Lord Varys

Quote

Well, I remember tossing around the idea that Otto Hightower may have had a Targaryen grandmother, explaining why Lord Beesbury claimed that Rhaenyra had more Targaryen blood than her half-brother.

This makes no sense to me. Beesbury was right that Rhaenyra had more Targaryen blood than her half-brothers when putting forth his argument. I don't see why this would lead to speculation that the Hightowers had Targaryen blood.

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36 minutes ago, Ran said:

@Lord Varys

This makes no sense to me. Beesbury was right that Rhaenyra had more Targaryen blood than her half-brothers when putting forth his argument. I don't see why this would lead to speculation that the Hightowers had Targaryen blood.

Oh, it was just an idea I remember tossing around when first reading TPatQ. At that point, we had no idea what had happened to all of Jaehaerys I's daughters and to any of of the other descendants King Aenys (and Aegon the Conqueror) may have had. The revelation that Rhaenys and Visenya had only one son each came as a considerable surprise to all of us.

And we didn't even have the names of the many wives of Maegor the Cruel at that point, if I'm not mistaken.

In light of the incest marriage policy - as well as Viserys I's first marriage to a cousin - it wasn't that far-fetched to assume that Alicent Hightower may have been an even more distant cousin of Viserys I on the Targaryen side, allowing her to marry the king. 

With what we know now about the constant attempts of the Hightowers to marry into House Targaryen - first Aegon, then succeeding with - it makes more sense that the Viserys-Alicent match wasn't challenged.

In fact, the impression one gets is that the Hightowers are seen as the second most noble bloodline of Westeros after the Targaryens, due to the prestige that comes with their age, wealth, and influence over the Faith and the Citadel.

Thus I'd agree that it makes perfect sense for the Viserys-Alicent match to play out as it does in TRP. The king falls in love with a young woman who happens to be of an impeccable noble bloodline that allows her to marry said king without causing a scandal.

But the idea of Princess Rhaella marrying into House Hightower is still an interesting possibility/idea, is it not? Somewhat more interesting than her just becoming a septa.

Still, it would likely be more interesting if those nine lesser claimants came from other houses and bloodlines than the Hightowers. Some Targaryen-Farmans sound pretty interesting to me, and Aerea (and Rhaella) founding other (now obscure) cadet branches of House Targaryen through the female line would be pretty interesting.

The Strongs might be an interesting possibility, too.

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Still, it would likely be more interesting if those nine lesser claimants came from other houses and bloodlines than the Hightowers. Some Targaryen-Farmans sound pretty interesting to me, and Aerea (and Rhaella) founding other (now obscure) cadet branches of House Targaryen through the female line would be pretty interesting.

I was always a big fan of the theory that Rhaena married the man she loved, that young Farman, which brings us to the possibility that one of Rhaena's daughters could've married a Lannister Lord, passing Targaryen blood to modern day Lannisters. That could show us how many people in Westeros, actually, do have Targaryen blood, even if it is from 200 years before.

I hope we get to know more about later lives of these three and, of course, who nine claimants were in Fire and Blood. 

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13 minutes ago, Blooddragon said:

I was always a big fan of the theory that Rhaena married the man she loved, that young Farman, which brings us to the possibility that one of Rhaena's daughters could've married a Lannister Lord, passing Targaryen blood to modern day Lannisters. That could show us how many people in Westeros, actually, do have Targaryen blood, even if it is from 200 years before.

Since Lord Tymond Lannister threw his support behind Prince Viserys' claim at the Great Council I doubt a member of the major branch of House Lannister is going to turn out to be one of those lesser claimants. In that sense, the Lannisters are in a similar position as the Hightowers there - with Tymond and Otto strongly supporting Viserys it makes not that much sense to assume they themselves or their relations laid claim to the Iron Throne themselves.

But, still, people are strange sometimes. Aenys Blackfyre also thought he had a better claim than 'King Daemon III Blackfyre', etc.

An Alysanne Farman was the first wife of Gerold Lannister. But they had no issue. Still, the Farmans seem to be one of the most prestigious and powerful houses of the West, making it not unlikely at all that there were multiple marriages between them and the Lannisters.

But then - Androw Farman was only the second son of Lord Farman. Unless Rhaena and Androw's children married into House Lannister (or the elder son, and Androw became the next Lord of Fair Isle)it is not very likely that the Lords of Casterly Rock some generations down the line married their heirs to the children of (landless) knights or whatever. Targaryen blood or not, the Lannisters are proud. 

But with the six Targaryen-Hightower girls it is really impossible to say who has a drop of the blood of the dragon and who doesn't. Pretty much everybody could, if some of those girls were as fertile as Queen Alysanne.

And I'm pretty sure Ronnel and Aelinor Penrose are both descended from Rhaena and Garmund Hightower. Perhaps even Jena Dondarrion.

13 minutes ago, Blooddragon said:

I hope we get to know more about later lives of these three and, of course, who nine claimants were in Fire and Blood. 

One assumes the newly written section on the reign of the Old King in 'Fire and Blood' touches on those subjects. Aside from such family matters and marriage arrangement there shouldn't be a lot of interesting stuff to cover, anyway.

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Just reread the sentence that Maegor forced his other wives to serve Queen Alys during her pregnancy.

What do you guys think? Is that George's clue for Tyanna's motive if we assume that she poisoned Alys' child and turned into a stillborn monstrosity?

One can see Alys Harroway relishing in the fact that she is pregnant and going to be the wife giving Maegor the son he so coveted, making her fellow queens feel her triumph and superiority.

That may have turned out to be ... unwise.

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6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Just reread the sentence that Maegor forced his other wives to serve Queen Alys during her pregnancy.

What do you guys think? Is that George's clue for Tyanna's motive if we assume that she poisoned Alys' child and turned into a stillborn monstrosity?

One can see Alys Harroway relishing in the fact that she is pregnant and going to be the wife giving Maegor the son he so coveted, making her fellow queens feel her triumph and superiority.

That may have turned out to be ... unwise.

I could see that.

Tbh I'm of two minds re Tyanna:

1. She was motivated by jealousy and ambition, wanting to be Maegor's sole queen (and the mother of all his children?)

2. She was actually innocent for once and only confessed to avoid a long, painful death via torture

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2 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

I could see that.

I can see her destroying Alys. After all, the fact that she apparently greatly enjoyed giving a woman she had sex with (and likely actually liked to no small degree in the years before) the worst end anyone in the entire ASoIaF cycle ever got. That is something.

But then - chances are that she told the truth about Lord Lucas' plan to impregnate Alys, too. So her motive may have been to prevent 'the whore' from tricking Maegor into believing he was his child. In combination with Alys growing arrogant when Tyanna actually knew what she was doing one could see why she would get very angry.

2 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

2. She was actually innocent for once and only confessed to avoid a long, painful death via torture

The deaths of the other two children I'd not lay at Tyanna's door. She had little to gain from that, and one wonders how poison could have affected Elinor months after Tyanna was already dead. Her words there look more like some sort of prophecy rather than her knowing stuff because she poisoned people.

And if that's true then Jeyne and Alys both may not have been poisoned.

That she confessed in the end was most likely her way to goad Maegor into giving her a clean exit.

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Posted (edited)
53 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That she confessed in the end was most likely her way to goad Maegor into giving her a clean exit.

I agree.

Re Elinor/Jeyne: Maybe Tyanna used magic? 

Re Alys: I personally don't think she cheated. Only Targs have stillborn horrors (Maegor, Rhaenyra, Dany (?)) so far as we know.

Re Tyanna: She could have been mad at Alys's conduct and the possibility of being sidelined as well as ambitious and jealous. Not to mention how easy it is for love to turn to hate.

Edited by The Grey Wolf

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10 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Re Elinor/Jeyne: Maybe Tyanna used magic? 

Could be. But shouldn't magic be able to kill a child rather quickly instead of allowing the mother-to-be to carry it another two months?

If we take Mirri's spell as an example for 'a magical abortion' then this thing worked very quickly, not just only killing Rhaego in the womb but also transforming him into a monstrosity.

In that sense one would expect Elinor to miscarry her child immediately after Tyanna's death/around that time.

Not to mention that magic could also have allowed Jeyne Westerling to lose her child immediately. In her case, though, there is that tidbit about Tyanna offering her this fertility potion - which could have been some magical poison or something, if it existed and was taken by Jeyne.

10 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Re Alys: I personally don't think she cheated. Only Targs have stillborn horrors (Maegor, Rhaenyra, Dany (?)) so far as we know.

Well, stillborn children as such are not exclusively reserved for the Targaryens. The only child that was, most likely, definitely Maegor's would be Elinor's because that's the one with the rudimentary wings.

But there is, of course, the chance that the child was the seed of the king and that Lord Lucas was ensuring Alys got pregnant by having other men sleep with her as well. She and Maegor were married since 39 AC, and she never had any pregnancy until 44 AC. Something was wrong there, and the only thing to ensure Maegor's continued favor - as well as wield power after his death - would have been to give the king a male heir.

10 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Re Tyanna: She could have been mad at Alys's conduct and the possibility of being sidelined as well as ambitious and jealous. Not to mention how easy it is for love to turn to hate.

Sure, and it is clear that she must have hated her in the end to a considerable degree. But then - was she so vapid that Alys being about to give the king a child drove her over the edge? Or was there something more to that? I mean, if she had been some evil jealous bitch one would also expect her to have done something to kill Maegor's other wives much earlier.

And from what we know Tyanna herself did not lead the investigations into Alys' conduct nor did she question the men on the list she had drawn up. That would have been Maegor himself - and Maegor originally did not believe Alys had done what Tyanna claimed.

I mean, sure, it is not impossible that the gold one of the men had did not, in fact, come from Lord Lucas, but it might have been the case. It is pretty much impossible to get to the bottom of this entire affair now.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I mean, sure, it is not impossible that the gold one of the men had did not, in fact, come from Lord Lucas, but it might have been the case. It is pretty much impossible to get to the bottom of this entire affair now.

Pretty much. GRRM made it super ambiguous.

Re Poison: Who knows how magic works? Maybe Tyanna used a drawn-out poison/spell to give Maegor a hope spot and then crush it?

Re Alys: The child being Maegor's and her cheating at the same is a possibility but as you said there's no way to be sure. I personally believe she was faithful but that's just me. Also, the only other family that has such deformed children is House Velaryon, which is itself Valyrian and has heavily intermarried with the Targaryens in the past. And while five years before the first pregnancy is unusual it isn't outside the scope of what constitutes normalcy.

Re Tyanna: Maybe Alys was the vapid one who never really saw what Tyanna/Maegor was really like? Personally, I'm of the belief that Tyanna didn't think much of Alys outside of fun in bed.

Edited by The Grey Wolf

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3 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Pretty much. GRRM made it super ambiguous.

Re Poison: Who knows how magic works? Maybe Tyanna used a drawn-out poison/spell to give Maegor a hope spot and then crush it?

Would be a rather overcomplicated way of doing things. I mean, if you was guilty in the case of Alys one could see her only moving against her when she decided enough was enough (going by my idea that she was pissed that she had to serve Alys while she was in her confinement), and now the bitch had to pay.

There we could see her poisoning whatever Alys ate or drank, making the whole thing less of a magical affair.

3 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Re Alys: The child being Maegor's and her cheating at the same is a possibility but as you said there's no way to be sure. I personally believe she was faithful but that's just me. Also, the only other family that has such deformed children is House Velaryon, which is itself Valyrian and has heavily intermarried with the Targaryens in the past. And while five years before the first pregnancy is unusual it isn't outside the scope of what constitutes normalcy.

Oh, but there are other simple-minded and stillborn children. And aside from some of the royal children very few of those children are actually described in detail.

And only Elinor's child seems to be the kind of monstrosity that might be caused by 'the blood of the dragon'. Alys' child just had no eyes, a huge head, and twisted limbs. The head and the limbs invoke a resemblance to Tyrion, but there are no real telltale signs that this child must have had the blood of the dragon - and keep in mind that the deformities may have been caused by whatever poison Tyanna used if she did kill that child.

Jeyne's child lacking arms and legs having both male and female genitals is closer to some human-dragon hybrid in the sense that the sex was difficult to pin down as well and that lacking limbs indicates a possible likeness to worms (in the sense of wyrms, etc.).

And the child of Elinor then really has a telltale monstrosity sign with the rudimentary wings.

Jeyne and Elinor's children would be Maegor's seed, most likely, Alys' not necessarily. 

3 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Re Tyanna: Maybe Alys was the vapid one who never really saw what Tyanna/Maegor was really like? Personally, I'm of the belief that Tyanna didn't think much of Alys outside of fun in bed.

Well, we really don't know much about any of those women, but Alys really must have been a pretty strong and ambitious person considering how she climbed to power in an Anne Boleyn way. And she must have known Maegor for quite some time before she caught his eye, entered into a relationship with him/got him to marry her, and then they lived some time together before they went into exile where they, eventually, met Tyanna.

And from what we know about these two especially there seem to have been no hard feelings/rivalry before the pregnancy. One rumor claims Tyanna was Alys' paramour originally, so they may have been closer at one point than Tyanna and Maegor, and they seem to have had real fun during the Tyanna's wedding.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Text

The lack of characterization in TSOTD compared to TRP/TPATQ makes this rather hard to discuss.

Anyway, do you think Maegor stopped sleeping with Tyanna because of the Harroway scandal? 

Also, if GRRM wanted Maegor committing suicide from depression to be believable one thing he could have done would be to have Tyanna's confession genuinely upset him because of what it would mean with regards to Alys.

Edited by The Grey Wolf

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6 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

The lack of characterization in TSOTD compared to TRP/TPATQ makes this rather hard to discuss

Oh, we have some tidbits but it is not all that deep. But, for instance, we can infer that Alys must have been a beautiful and strong woman to pull off what she did, just as Ceryse and Maegor must have been reasonably fond of each other or else they wouldn't have reconciled. At that time, the chances for Ceryse to give Maegor children would have been about zero.

6 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Anyway, do you think Maegor stopped sleeping with Tyanna because of the Harroway scandal? 

That is pretty likely. Which makes the whole thing Pyrrhic victory for Tyanna if the whole thing was about removing rivals for Maegor's affection.

6 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Also, if GRRM wanted Maegor committing suicide from depression to be believable one thing he could have done would be to have Tyanna's confession genuinely upset him because of what it would mean with regards to Alys.

I don't think George wanted to resolve this mystery, it was deliberately set up to be as vague for us as it is for the people in-universe. The idea that he would give us hints what *really* happened there when the people in the world don't know was never very likely.

That goes for many other mysteries nobody *can* really know, like the contents of Prince Nymor's letter, etc.

But, sure, the realization that Tyanna caused him to kill a woman he truly loved the way they did (together) surely may have contributed to his depression in he end - if not to his suicide (because he was murdered) then to his disability to make proper plans, etc.

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, we have some tidbits but it is not all that deep.

I don't think George wanted to resolve this mystery, it was deliberately set up to be as vague for us as it is for the people in-universe. The idea that he would give us hints what *really* happened there when the people in the world don't know was never very likely.

But, sure, the realization that Tyanna caused him to kill a woman he truly loved the way they did (together) surely may have contributed to his depression in he end - if not to his suicide (because he was murdered) then to his disability to make proper plans, etc.

Re characterization: That's kind of what I meant. Just look at the in-depth description of Aenys and Maegor in the same text or that of Aegon, Visenya, and Rhaenys in the Conquest.

Re Maegor's Death: You misunderstood me. I only meant that Maegor committing suicide does not come off as realistic to me in TSOTD because he does not show any signs of depression, madness, etc. So if GRRM wants that to be one of the possibilities he needs to show us why Maegor would succumb to such fatalism.

Edited by The Grey Wolf

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On 6/4/2018 at 10:56 PM, The Grey Wolf said:

Re characterization: That's kind of what I meant. Just look at the in-depth description of Aenys and Maegor in the same text or that of Aegon, Visenya, and Rhaenys in the Conquest.

Well, I'd say that while Aenys and Maegor are characters we know more about than, say, Maegor's wives, they are still only two-dimensional guys. Three dimensions would require us actually getting a scene where we see how Aenys' indecision trait plays off (say, some council scene where the man erratically changes his views/plans again and again and again) as well as what the driving force behind Maegor's cruelty and mistrust was - say, having somebody describe him in detail while he was commanding the execution of the Eyrie garrison, say, or how he sat there executing all the Harroways, etc.

Maegor got some depth in that scene where he sits on the throne with Desmond's head in his hands, really grieving for his stillborn son, but that's about the only moment of the *real man* we get in the story.

On 6/4/2018 at 10:56 PM, The Grey Wolf said:

Re Maegor's Death: You misunderstood me. I only meant that Maegor committing suicide does not come off as realistic to me in TSOTD because he does not show any signs of depression, madness, etc. So if GRRM wants that to be one of the possibilities he needs to show us why Maegor would succumb to such fatalism.

Sure, there could be more detail there. But the suicide possibility is in there, in the guise of a sudden decision in the middle of the night when the man may have realized that everything was lost.

I'm with you that it would have been better to build that up properly, and sure as hell give an explanation as to why Maegor wasn't thinking about making it a murder-suicide/killing spree on dragonback. With Balerion the man could have actually killed all his adversaries and burned all their castles before some lucky quarrel/arrow blast of fire had killed Maegor. He may have even regained control that way - I'm not sure what people would have done after Storm's End, Driftmark, Oldtown, Riverrun, Highgarden, etc. would have been burned ruins, and Jaehaerys, Rhaena, Alysanne, and Alyssa had all been dead?

Maybe people would have fallen back in line, maybe not. 

Still, a way to get around this is to give more credence to the idea that Maegor was murdered rather than actually committing suicide.

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