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Lord Varys

The Book of Swords - The Sons of the Dragon SPOILERS

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@Lord Varys

Maegor didnt have any sisters or cousins to marry. Given how much he emulates his father I'm sure he would have wanted his son to marry his sister rather than a cousin born of a half-brother many saw as weak, never mind the fact he and Maegor got along most of their lives.

Edited by The Grey Wolf

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3 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

It would have been interesting if GRRM had kept Alysanne as Maegor's daughter instead of changing her to Jaehaerys I's sister.

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

According to @Ran it is from a previous version of the family tree.

Do any of you have the link to that statement?

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Don't know where I said it, but it is true. The earliest version of the family tree we've seen, nigh on 20 years ago, had Alysanne as Maegor's daughter, but he changed that not long after to the situation as it stands in current trees.

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1 hour ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

 

Do any of you have the link to that statement?

It may have been n the first F&B thread...

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3 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

@Lord Varys

Maegor didnt have any sisters or cousins to marry. Given how much he emulates his father I'm sure he would have wanted his son to marry his sister rather than a cousin born of a half-brother many saw as weak, never mind the fact he and Maegor got along most of their lives.

He didn't rush to marry his niece Rhaena after he had dealt with Aegon, never mind that he already had multiple wives. That is an indication that he wasn't as much obsessed with the incest thing as Aenys was. In fact, he had to be reminded by Lord Velaryon that marrying Rhaena was an option.

Can anybody with too much time and access to the texts right check when Alysanne is first mentioned as Jaehaerys' sister-wife? I think that's ASoS. If Dany being of Maegor's blood is mentioned before that (which I think it might be) it could indeed be a reflection of Dany being actually of Maegor's blood.

Although the fact that the man was of her blood and she of his makes also sense if he was just her great-great ... uncle, just as it does with other characters and their kin and her being of the blood of Daeron I who also had no issue, etc.

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Oh, I know that. That is just as good as the words you search for are. @Bael's Bastard did not find the relevant quote about Daemon's daughters that way, I assume ;-).

Still, the Dany-Maegor thing is from AGoT, the promise she makes that her Dothraki enemies will die screaming.

'Queen Alysanne' first shows up as a ship's name without context in ACoK (as did Black Betha) and we only get Alysanne as wife of King Jaehaerys in ASoS.

Still not sure where their sibling relationship is established - I recall being surprised that she was his sister-wife considering her name didn't sound all that Valyrian to me back during the first read. But I guess that's me being nonsensical considering she is clearly introduced as a dragonrider so regardless whose sister she is, she clearly was always a Targaryen.

In any case, we be relatively confident that Alysanne the character would have been developed around the time this first family tree @Ran had seen 20 years was made, too - i.e. while writing the last chapters of ACoK and the first chapters of ASoS.

Like Black Betha, Alysanne Targaryen was likely an outgrowth of the names of the ships that are mentioned during the Blackwater, with George asking himself after whom the ships in the royal fleet are named, etc.

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2 hours ago, Ran said:

Don't know where I said it, but it is true. The earliest version of the family tree we've seen, nigh on 20 years ago, had Alysanne as Maegor's daughter, but he changed that not long after to the situation as it stands in current trees.

But apparently not before he wrote Daenerys IX, Game 68. ;)

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37 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Can anybody with too much time and access to the texts right check when Alysanne is first mentioned as Jaehaerys' sister-wife? I think that's ASoS. If Dany being of Maegor's blood is mentioned before that (which I think it might be) it could indeed be a reflection of Dany being actually of Maegor's blood.

Is it possible that the revelation of Jaehaerys and Alysanne being siblings occurred in a SSM? I could be overlooking it, but I am not finding a reference in the books.

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35 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

But apparently not before he wrote Daenerys IX, Game 68. ;)

Nigh on 20 years ago places this around the time of his writing ASoS.

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14 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

@Bael's Bastard

Maybe the SSM where GRRM described Alysanne's appearance to Amok?

I actually think that might have been the first mentioning of that. Not sure we discussed Alysanne all that much prior to that SSM, and I think I must held on to the idea that Alysanne wasn't a Targaryen for quite some time for me to still remember that. In that sense, I can't have read anything about that in the first four novels because I read all those in summer (and then autumn) of 2005.

But we don't care about all my nonsensical ideas about relations, do we ;-)?

46 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

But apparently not before he wrote Daenerys IX, Game 68. ;)

No, the way it looks that could just mean that George had no idea from whom Dany was descended at that point. Back during the days of AGoT he wouldn't have had a detailed Targaryen family tree. He may have thought Dany was some descendant of Maegor's through the female line (Jaehaerys' nameless wife, or a daughter marrying Jaehaerys' son, the father of Viserys I) - or not. It could have just been a hint that Dany was related to Maegor the Cruel and thus also had it in her to be, well, cruel and vindictive and a terrible enemies to her foes.

Whether George thought of that AGoT quote when imagining Alysanne as Maegor's daughter we don't know - one could ask him, but I'd be very surprised if he recalled that after twenty years have passed.

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37 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I actually think that might have been the first mentioning of that. Not sure we discussed Alysanne all that much prior to that SSM, and I think I must held on to the idea that Alysanne wasn't a Targaryen for quite some time for me to still remember that. In that sense, I can't have read anything about that in the first four novels because I read all those in summer (and then autumn) of 2005.

But we don't care about all my nonsensical ideas about relations, do we ;-)?

No, the way it looks that could just mean that George had no idea from whom Dany was descended at that point. Back during the days of AGoT he wouldn't have had a detailed Targaryen family tree. He may have thought Dany was some descendant of Maegor's through the female line (Jaehaerys' nameless wife, or a daughter marrying Jaehaerys' son, the father of Viserys I) - or not. It could have just been a hint that Dany was related to Maegor the Cruel and thus also had it in her to be, well, cruel and vindictive and a terrible enemies to her foes.

Whether George thought of that AGoT quote when imagining Alysanne as Maegor's daughter we don't know - one could ask him, but I'd be very surprised if he recalled that after twenty years have passed.

There is a lot more to Daenerys calling likening her blood to Maegor, and it isn't just lineage.

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

The Dothraki exchanged uncertain glances. "Khaleesi," the handmaid Irri explained, as if to a child, "Jhaqo is a khal now, with twenty thousand riders at his back."

She lifted her head. "And I am Daenerys Stormborn, Daenerys of House Targaryen, of the blood of Aegon the Conqueror and Maegor the Cruel and old Valyria before them. I am the dragon's daughter, and I swear to you, these men will die screaming. Now bring me to Khal Drogo."

He was lying on the bare red earth, staring up at the sun.

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20 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

There is a lot more to Daenerys calling likening her blood to Maegor, and it isn't just lineage.

I'll take that one seriously once Dany cradles the head of some Grand Maester while sitting on the Iron Throne, and not before.

Being angry is not the same as being Maegor.

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2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I'll take that one seriously once Dany cradles the head of some Grand Maester while sitting on the Iron Throne, and not before.

Being angry is not the same as being Maegor.

I never said it was. But there is more to Daenerys calling herself blood of Maegor. You are looking at this way too literally.

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1 hour ago, Ran said:

Nigh on 20 years ago places this around the time of his writing ASoS.

I know. I was was just being clever. I have seen long threads debating what Daenerys meant when she said she was the blood of Maegor of the Cruel. 

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I actually think that might have been the first mentioning of that. Not sure we discussed Alysanne all that much prior to that SSM, and I think I must held on to the idea that Alysanne wasn't a Targaryen for quite some time for me to still remember that. In that sense, I can't have read anything about that in the first four novels because I read all those in summer (and then autumn) of 2005.

But we don't care about all my nonsensical ideas about relations, do we ;-)?

No, the way it looks that could just mean that George had no idea from whom Dany was descended at that point. Back during the days of AGoT he wouldn't have had a detailed Targaryen family tree. He may have thought Dany was some descendant of Maegor's through the female line (Jaehaerys' nameless wife, or a daughter marrying Jaehaerys' son, the father of Viserys I) - or not. It could have just been a hint that Dany was related to Maegor the Cruel and thus also had it in her to be, well, cruel and vindictive and a terrible enemies to her foes.

Whether George thought of that AGoT quote when imagining Alysanne as Maegor's daughter we don't know - one could ask him, but I'd be very surprised if he recalled that after twenty years have passed.

Didn't the George say that when he started, he had a basic family tree? 

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1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I never said it was. But there is more to Daenerys calling herself blood of Maegor. You are looking at this way too literally.

And what would that be?

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Didn't the George say that when he started, he had a basic family tree? 

Could be. But that might have been just as basic as 'wife of King X'.

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8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And what would that be?

Could be. But that might have been just as basic as 'wife of King X'.

Can’t talk now, about to walk in to the movies. Well, the theatre, not the movie itself. 

Just knows this, LV, one day you will owe me soooo many beers :D

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12 hours ago, Ran said:

Don't know where I said it, but it is true. The earliest version of the family tree we've seen, nigh on 20 years ago, had Alysanne as Maegor's daughter, but he changed that not long after to the situation as it stands in current trees.

Cool, thanks for confirming! :)

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