The Book of Swords - The Sons of the Dragon SPOILERS

[The Fattest Leech]

5 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Unfortunately, I do not have my book with me right now, but wasn't Uncle-neice and/or aunt-nephew love expressly described as incest in the Sons of the Dragon? 

This from Sons of the Dragon? 

The tradition amongst the Targaryens had always been to marry kin to kin. Wedding brother to sister was thought to be ideal. Failing that, a girl might wed an uncle, a cousin, or a nephew; a boy a cousin, aunt, or niece. This practice went back to Old Valyria, where it was common amongst many of the ancient families, particularly those who bred and rode dragons. The blood of the dragon must remain pure, the wisdom went. Some of the sorcerer princes also took more than one wife when it pleased them, though this was less common than incestuous marriage. In Valryia before the Doom, wise men wrote, a thousand gods were honored, but none were feared, so few dared to speak against these customs.

---

And then this was weird:

Prince Aenys was the first to marry. In 22 AC, he wed the Lady Alyssa, the maiden daughter of the Lord of the Tides, Aethan Velaryon, King Aegon’s lord admiral and master of ships. She was fifteen, the same age as the prince, and shared his silvery hair and purple eyes as well, for the Velaryons were an ancient family descended from Valyrian stock. King Aegon’s own mother had been a Velaryon, so the marriage was reckoned one of cousin to cousin.

---

And this is weird too: 

Maegor was cursed, men said. He had slain his nephew, made war against the Faith and the High Septon, defied the gods, committed murder and incest, adultery and rape. His privy parts were poisoned, his seed full of worms, the gods would never grant him a living son.

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 10/11/2017 at 0:39 PM, Lord Varys said:

Sunfyre was bonded to Aegon II, though, while Quicksilver was not. The idea that the father's dragon searches out the son all by herself is romantic and all, but somewhat far-fetched without any textual evidence.

Especially in light of the fact that Sunfyre's return to Dragonstone is described as a mysterious event, heavily debated by scholars. It is not clear whether the dragon sensed Aegon's turmoils - which he could have - or whether he simply made his way back home to the Dragonmount, the place where he apparently hatched.

...

If avuncular marriages were considered incest then the Starks practiced incest, too, with those two confirmed avuncular marriages of theirs. And as I've quoted above, the High Septon objects to the Rhaena-Maegor match but he doesn't call it incest or abomination nor do George-Gyldayn include avuncular marriages in their earlier definition of incest.

I'm sure it was uncommon and most likely done only among the noble and royal families of the Seven Kingdoms - especially when there were too many heirs around - but we don't have any reason to believe it constitutes the type of incest that is condemned by the Faith. That seems to be parent-children and sibling incest only. I assume grandparents-grandchildren incest is also included, but avuncular marriages were not uncommon in medieval societies - and are also not targeted by most contemporary incest laws in our world.

As to the Quicksilver thing - see above. Without any confirmation that a riderless dragon just sought out the son of his dead rider hundreds of leagues away I don't believe that. And come to think of that - if Prince Viserys was dragonless - as seems to be the case since no dragon is mentioned for him - wouldn't he have claimed his father's dragon? He was there when Aenys I died. Aegon was not.

Rhaena certainly could have left her infant daughters with the Lannisters during the campaign. It is possible she had not yet recovered enough after the childbirth, like it was with Rhaenyra at the beginning of the Dance, but there seems to have passed a lot of time between the birth of the twins in late 42 AC, and Aegon's demise in late 43 AC (after the end of the Oldtown episode where Maegor spent half a year).

As to the Crakehall siege: Yes, if Dreamfyre was there - which seems to be the case, considering she is with her later in the Westerlands - the idea that they could be besieged is very odd.

And dragons must have been with them on the progress in any case. The whole point of those royal progresses was to show off the wealth, splendor, and power of the Targaryens. The dragons were a huge part of it. We learn that both from the descriptions of Aegon's progresses as well as Jaehaerys I's progresses (who took six dragons to Winterfell).

This makes it exceedingly unlikely that Rhaena did not take Dreamfyre with her on the progress. And again - the idea that the Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne had no dragon of his own when there were 6-8 dragons from which he could have picked his mount - the same dragon Maegor all declined as well as the two that hatched shortly after Aenys had made Maegor his Hand - simply doesn't make any sense. If Aenys and Maegor were given/offered dragons so would have Aegon and Viserys - especially since Rhaena, Jaehaerys, and Alysanne all got dragons.

If Vermithor and Silverwing were even remotely large enough to be used in battle against Balerion in 48 AC as Lord Baratheon's talk indicates they must have been of considerable size in 44 AC. But the issue there is not only that they must have conveniently found a captain to transport them and the dragons but also that Tyanna apparently never found out where they went. How is that even remotely convincing? She found Aerea and Rhaella who were hidden in the Westerlands, hundreds of leagues away from KL, yet she was unable to found Alyssa, the children, and the dragons hiding in the Stormlands, essentially in Maegor's backyard? That doesn't make any sense. Sailors do talk, and there is no way that the captain could have hidden two dragons - whatever their size - from his men.

In that sense the escape of Alyssa and the children from Dragonstone would make much more sense if they all fled on dragonback. Then they could have hidden on some rocky island in Blackwater or Shipbreaker Bay, contacting Lord Baratheon by flying directly to Storm's End under the cover of darkness in the middle of a rainy day, or something of that sort. If they came from the sea side and entered the castle through the harbor Davos and Mel use in ACoK secrecy could have ensured convincingly, especially if Alyssa had reached out to Lord Baratheon previously in letters, etc.

We have to keep in mind that Jaehaerys was the greatest danger to Maegor after his escape. He would have put a lot of his resources on finding him.

Hey, when there's no explicit or implicit suggestion in the text, @Rhaenys_Targaryen's guess is as good as anybody's. 

As for Starks practicing avuncular or materteral incest... well, everyone knows those Northmen are just a bunch of savage Picts. 

[Jaak]

6 hours ago, Ran said:

The early Targaryens settling Dragonstone were Valyrian foreigners bringing their customs. Aegon was a lord of the narrow sea attempting to forge a kingdom by to some degree assimilating -- a process that, in fact, was not something he started. So yes, he still married polygamously, but this was at a point where there were basically no Targaryens besides them.

There were obvious alternatives. Despite Aenar the Exile, polygamy had been rare enough that Aegon was not expected to marry both of his sisters - just one of them, probably Visenya as the elder. Leaving Rhaenys, or if he loved her better, Visenya, to marry someone else - whether a suitable Velaryon, or as a surprise the boy who he judged fit for Storm Queen, that is Orys Baratheon.

6 hours ago, Ran said:

Polygamy fell out of fashion because it wasn't necessary at any point after that, essentially.

And then there's what happens when the offspring fight among themselves over who is heir. Which is pretty much what happened thanks to Aegon's polygamous marriage, and Visenya pushing Maegor ahead of Aenys's children. Polygamy is not "all upside". It proved better for the stability of the realm to avoid anything like polygamy. In fact, simply consider that Rhaenyra's relationship with Laenor Velaryon and Harwin Strong helped fuel the fire of the Dance considerably as another example; matters would not have been helped had Harwin been her legal husband. And then consider Aegon IV sleeping around and setting up the realm for five generations of hurt because of his elevation of his bastards to legitimacy. Imagine if they had all been legitimate to begin with -- do you _really_ think Daeron and Daemon and Bittersteel and Bloodraven wouldn't have had issues in that scenario?

What you need is family solidarity. The spares must be taken care of, yet kept in place. Consider Jaehaerys and Alysanne with 9 adult children, or Daeron Falseborn with 4, or Maekar with 4... plenty of space for sibling rivalry even so.

[Colonel Green]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Aegon clearly liked to be stuck with his sister-wife. Naerys wanted to go - which is the reason why he did not allow her to go.

Yes, because he liked tormenting her.  With his mistresses, when he was done with them, he just wanted them out of sight (unless, as with Bethany Bracken, they cheated on him, in which case he wanted them dead).

Basically, marrying them wouldn't have benefited him any.  He didn't need to.  Indeed, marrying them would have given them more power and leverage.

[The Grey Wolf]

Just finished reading TSOTD.

[SFDanny]

On 10/11/2017 at 4:31 AM, Lord Varys said:

I think I never said that, but it is quite clear that neither polygamy nor incestuous marriages were seen as lawful by the Faith. When Maegor came to Oldtown he broke the Faith, of course, then they agreed to everything. But the status of the Conqueror's marriages was unclear - it was neither openly condemned nor declared legal. Now, it is clear that familiarity bred acceptance there in many people, especially those lords who saw polygamy as a means to throw their daughters at the royals, but not in the Faith - especially not the more extremist factions.

LV, if I misunderstood your previous comments, my apologies. I had thought you were more accepting of the possibility of such agreements having occurred, but I stand corrected. I don't disagree with any of the cited paragraph above, with this one exception. I do think there is an understanding reached by Aegon and the High Septon who crowned him that his marriages to his sisters and any children he has with them are seen as valid and legal. Aegon wasn't setting up a Targaryen dynasty that lasted the length of his life only. By accepting his rule over Westeros, the Faith accepted his family and their future rule as well. The fact the Faith continued to preach against other such marriages and saying the children resulting from them were "abominations" doesn't preclude the fact they accepted them in the case of the Targaryens. That a new High Septon tried to seize the opportunity presented to him by Aenys's weak rule to change the balance of power towards the Faith doesn't negate the fact that the entirety of Aegon's rule is one of acceptance by the Faith of his marriages and his sons and grandchildren.

On 10/11/2017 at 4:31 AM, Lord Varys said:

And we have to note that it actually seems that the Poor Fellows never really disappeared. They disappeared as an official order but not as an ideology or tradition.

I would put it a little differently. It seems that in a feudal society in which social mobility is frozen by birth, or nearly so, that there is always a need for the dispossessed of the peasantry to find a place in such orders. Or risk outright rebellion in times of crises. The difference between the Poor Fellows and the Kingswood Brotherhood is only the difference of a Septon's blessing.

On 10/11/2017 at 4:31 AM, Lord Varys said:

Once the Faith breaks with the Targaryens in the wake of Prince Maegor's second marriage it is quite clear that this marriage is not seen as valid by the Faith. That changes when the High Septon is killed and the Faith itself broken and forced under the thumb of the Iron Throne, but by then Prince Maegor is King Maegor, and kings are above the law.

The idea that a prince can do or get away with the same things a king can is simply wrong.

I never said anything about there being an agreement between Aegon or Aenys and the Faith about the incest or polygamy thing, by the way. It was an unresolved issue, but it was quite clear that the Faith objected to all of that and still had the power to condemn and oppose such things while they were not yet broken.

The Faith is never ok with Targaryen customs. In the wake of the Conquest, they agree to give their backing to Aegon's power and to ignore the conflict between those customs and the Faith's own traditions. They continue to ignore the contradiction until a new High Septon sees an opportunity to test the power balance anew. Or that is how I see it.

I would only say about your statement about what prince can get away with, that it depends entirely on the King and the Prince in question. Does the king support the prince in "getting away" with what the prince is doing? Does the prince have an organized power base of his own? I do agree that being king can make a huge difference.

On 10/11/2017 at 4:31 AM, Lord Varys said:

From the way incest is defined in TSotD - as sexual intercourse between siblings and parents and children - the Rhaena-Maegor match actually does not constitute incest (we know such marriages don't seem to be uncommon among the Starks and perhaps even among other noble families) nor is it condemned by the High Septon as such.

This isn't a condemnation nor phrased as 'this is incest, don't do it' but rather a warning that this is seen as too much like the incest you abominations are used to do, and we don't want to give the impression that you want to continue those ways, do we?

At that point the issue seems partly motivated by the kin marriage thing but in equal part also by the ambitions of the High Septon and the Hightowers. To force Aegon to marry Ceryse to his one of his sons they have to give him a reason. And the uncle-niece match Visenya was entertaining gives them the opportunity they need.

It isn't mentioned but I'd not be surprised if Ceryse - due to her age - was also suggested to Aegon as a bride for Aenys. Assuming the Targaryens didn't arrange that match within the extended family itself - which is actually rather likely -, perhaps even years before it was publicly announced.

While interesting, your point about the Starks really isn't precedent for what the Faith would accept. As worshippers of the Old Gods, the North's marriage customs are their own and the Faith's blessing on them hasn't been a issue for thousands of years, so why would what the Starks do represent the orthodoxy of the Faith in Oldtown? I do agree that the High Septon's letter and his suggestion of his niece as a better wife for Prince Maegor is more of a power grab on the Hightower family's part than a question of what constitutes incest.

On 10/11/2017 at 4:31 AM, Lord Varys said:

How polygamy was seen - and not only by the Faith - while the Faith still had teeth is pretty clear:

My only objection is that the Faith also clearly accepts Aegon's rule, the rule of both of his sister/queens, and Aenys's rule despite the contradiction between Aegon and his sister's marriage and the Faith's clear taboo on polygamy. The power of Aegon and his dragons keeps this contradiction between the Faith's dogma and the real world alive, but unresolved for decades. Open bloody war finally resolves this in favor of "Maegor's dictum" - "the strictures of the Faith might rule lesser men, but not the blood of the Dragon."

[SFDanny]

On 10/12/2017 at 7:58 PM, The Twinslayer said:

I would not expect to find confirmation of the "polygamy is illegal" theory in a book covering the reigns of Aenys and Maegor.  The theory is that polygamy was formally outlawed during the reign of Jaehaerys the Conciliator, which came after both Aenys and Maegor were dead.  

You are familiar with this theory.  In short, we know from prior books that Jahaerys earned the honorific "the Conciliator" because he made peace with the Faith and passed a uniform code of laws for all of Westeros.  When he did that, he did not annul his then-existing incestuous marriage.  But we also know that neither he nor any other Targaryen king who followed him even tried to enter into a polygamous marriage, and it never occurred to anyone that Robb Stark could keep his betrothal vow to the Freys after he married Jeyne Westering.  This suggests that polygamy was formally outlawed during Jaehaerys' reign.  So we should not look for confirmation of that law in Sons of the Dragon. 

It is good that you don't expect to find confirmation of an agreement between Targaryens and the Faith outlawing Targaryen polygamy in this history. You won't find it here. Hopefully we will get the first volume of Fire and Blood along with The Winds of Winter next year and we can look for it there. Until then we shall have to disagree that Jahaerys's honorific points to any such agreement.

What Robb Stark has to do with the Targaryen custom of polygamy is beyond me. What he can or cannot do has to do with his own traditions and customs, not those of the dragonlords.

[SFDanny]

11 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

The Faith's, or perhaps more acurately, the faithful's, rejection of, and resistance to, Targaryen incest, which we see echoed by our High Sparrow, further suggests that the Faith would support Aegon, the presumed son of Rhaegar and Elia over Daenerys, the daughter of Aerys and his sister Rhaella. And perhaps more importantly, it also suggests they might spit the bit if Aegon were to propose wedding his presumed aunt Daenerys, which might cause Aegon to take a Dornish bride as did his presumed father. 

It is an interesting question who the High Sparrow will end up supporting. I lean in the direction of a Faith of the Seven nationalist state. Governed by the High Sparrow himself. Why should he support any of the other claimants? I could see the Faith uniting behind Stannis if he hadn't cast his lot with R'hallor. Now? None of the contenders for the throne is pure enough for the High Sparrow. More likely he rules as both Lord Protector and High Septon.

[Jaak]

About maesters:

Who and when was the first Grand Maester?

There was a Grand Maester when Aenys died - at royal court.

When, how and why was he replaced?

Was there any previous mention of the institution of Grand Maester?

We know that High Septon existed pre-Conquest, at Oldtown Starry Sept, and stayed at Starry Sept till after Dance.

So what was the situation about Grand Maester pre-Conquest? In late Aegon´s reign?

Pre-Conquest: no institution of Grand Maester? A Grand Maester at Oldtown Citadel? A Grand Maester at Gardener court at Highgarden, possibly accompanying Gardener camp at Field of Fire?

In later days of Aegon I: still no institution of Grand Maester? A Grand Maester at Oldtown Citadel? Or a Grand Maester at Targaryen court as eventually?

 

[The Wondering Wolf]

49 minutes ago, Jaak said:

About maesters:

Who and when was the first Grand Maester?

There was a Grand Maester when Aenys died - at royal court.

When, how and why was he replaced?

Was there any previous mention of the institution of Grand Maester?

We know that High Septon existed pre-Conquest, at Oldtown Starry Sept, and stayed at Starry Sept till after Dance.

So what was the situation about Grand Maester pre-Conquest? In late Aegon´s reign?

Pre-Conquest: no institution of Grand Maester? A Grand Maester at Oldtown Citadel? A Grand Maester at Gardener court at Highgarden, possibly accompanying Gardener camp at Field of Fire?

In later days of Aegon I: still no institution of Grand Maester? A Grand Maester at Oldtown Citadel? Or a Grand Maester at Targaryen court as eventually?

The first known Grand Maester is Gawen who is mentioned in 19 AC for the first time. He serves for Aenys as well and is killed by Maegor in 42 AC. I think that is all we know.

[Jaak]

11 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

The first known Grand Maester is Gawen who is mentioned in 19 AC for the first time. He serves for Aenys as well and is killed by Maegor in 42 AC. I think that is all we know.

When does the second of the three Grand Maesters appear?

 

[Shmedricko]

A while ago I made a post in the A+J=T thread color-coding similarities between the accounts of Tyrion's birth and those of stillborn Targaryens. I just updated that post (hidden behind a spoiler for now) with the descriptions of Alys, Jeyne, and Elinor's stillbirths in The Sons of the Dragon (which are a bit more detailed than the ones in TWOIAF), and I thought I'd make a post here too showing how they fit in:

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During the third moon of her confinement, however, Lady Alys began to bleed heavily from the womb and lost the child. When King Maegor came to see the stillbirth, he was horrified to find the boy a monster, with twisted limbs, a huge head, and no eyes. “This cannot be my son,” he roared in anguish.

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Three moons before she was due, Queen Jeyne was brought to bed by a sudden onset of labor pains, and was delivered of a stillborn child as monstrous as the one Alys Harroway had birthed, a legless and armless creature possessed of both male and female genitals. Nor did the mother long survive the child.

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The moon turned and turned again, and in the black of night Queen Elinor too was delivered of a malformed and stillborn child, an eyeless boy born with rudimentary wings. (The Sons of the Dragon)

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"And well you might, since you were said to have one, a stiff curly tail like a swine's. Your head was monstrous huge, we heard, half again the size of your body, and you had been born with thick black hair and a beard besides, an evil eye, and lion's claws. Your teeth were so long you could not close your mouth, and between your legs were a girl's privates as well as a boy's." (Tyrion V, ASOS)

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In 273 AC, however, Lady Joanna was taken to childbed once again at Casterly Rock, where she died delivering Lord Tywin's second son. Tyrion, as the babe was named, was a malformed, dwarfish babe born with stunted legs, an oversized head, and mismatched, demonic eyes (some reports also suggested he had a tail, which was lopped off at his lord father's command). Lord Tywin's Doom, the smallfolk called this ill-made creature, and Lord Tywin's Bane. Upon hearing of his birth, King Aerys infamously said, "The gods cannot abide such arrogance. They have plucked a fair flower from his hand and given him a monster in her place, to teach him some humility at last." (TWOIAF - The Targaryen Kings: Aerys II)

The only new connection (i.e. one that wasn't covered by other quotes) is Alys' stillbirth having "a huge head." Prior to The Sons of the Dragon, none of the other stillborn Targaryens were described with that feature, as far as I know.

[Jaak]

About these Maegor´s monsters:

None of them was even alive when born. Nor was any of them an apparently normal stillborn corpse. About sex, some are expressly described as boys, and some having both male and female parts - none was expressly a girl.

What´s the full list of Maegor´s children and their description? Those of contemporary attestation, that is exclusive of Silver Denys?

The terms of Maegor´s decree after his wedding to Rhaena made Aerea his heir until he should have a son. Implying that if Maegor stayed sonless but got a healthy daughter, it would be Aerea on Iron Throne, not the daughter of Maegor...

[Ran]

There's material in F&B v1 concerning the first Grand Maester.

[Lord Varys]

9 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

After Tyanna stopped working her voodoo, Maegor started losing it, and the Iron Throne finished the job. 

Considering that Maegor behaved exactly the same way he always did after Tyanna's death there is no chance he was kept alive by magic. And if that was the case one would assume she would not only have prophesied him that Elinor's child would be a dead monstrosity but also that Maegor himself would not live long after she died. But she did not do that.

In light of the TSotD account suicide seems to out of the question here. Maegor would have first burned down KL and the Red Keep, and Storm's End, and Jaehaerys, Rhaena, Alysanne, Alyssa, and their pitiful pet dragons before he would have considered killing himself.

In that sense chances are that the Kingsguard acted in concert and murdered him. Four Kingsguard should be enough to seize Maegor and hold him in place while the Iron Throne finished the job. A person or persons sneaking in and doing the job in secret seems less likely considering Maegor's enormous strength. He would have had time enough to cry out and then the Kingsguard would have saved him.

And even if he for some reason fell asleep on the Iron Throne - which seems very unlikely - chances are that he would have woken and been able for fight off or injure an attacker. But there were no signs of a struggle in the throne room.

9 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:

From my graduate-level medieval history courses - particularly "The Development of the Family and Marriage in Europe" by Jack Goody - there used to be a lot of discourse that "the Catholic Church set about asserting its right to enforce consanguinity laws regarding incest, saying who could and could not be married, as a sinister plot to assume political control over all of Europe".  Not just incest, but also discouraging polygamy....which was actually fairly common in the early centuries after the Germanic invasions, i.e. early Frankish kings circa 500-1000 often DID take multiple wives, sometimes even cousins or sisters from the same family (to ensure their legal claim to their lands etc.)

BUT, over time, more modern scholarship concluded this was silly:  the Catholic Church never had that level of power and coordination, even if it wanted to.  Rather, the reason the Catholic Church (in say the 700's) argued against incestuous marriages (like 1st cousins) and polygamy (you married your wife's sister too or her cousin) was probably much more prosaic:

Well, a conspiracy theory setting never made a lot of sense there. Rather, a slow shift in what was deemed morally acceptable. The eventual enforcement of priest celibacy would be another such issue. It began as an ideal and was then slowly but steadily enforced until it was the accepted norm.

The issue with kin marriages among the Merovingian and Carolingian kings seems to have to do more with the fact that back then all sons were eligible to inherit a chunk of their father's lands, leading to the kingdom being split up between the sons upon their father's death, leading to constant 'reunification wars' during which the sons had to kill each other to take possession of the entire kingdom their father taken from his late brothers, etc.

And the whole consanguinity thing in the later middle ages was just a convenient way for the Papal States to make money. By granting special permission to marry your niece, first cousin, second cousin, etc. they could collect a lot of money from the various noble and royal families of Europe. And the Vatican really needed that money.

How exactly the legal status of Charlemagne's many wives were - whether he had a principal wife and concubines, or whether there was a principal wife, secondary wives (in a sense mirroring the difference between a rock wife and some salt wives in Ironborn culture), and concubines is, as far as I know, still a matter of debate.

But monogamy as the later middle ages understood was clearly not the norm in the Merovingian and early Carolingian era.

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It led to constant civil wars, and the Church was honestly just trying to stabilize the political order as best it could.

Not some vast conspiracy to establish a Church-dominated continent-spanning government (things were in chaos, they were never remotely that powerful).  Just, practically, logically....why would the local bishop be okay with the local lord being polygamously married to two women who were cousins to each other?  This INEVITABLY would lead to a succession conflict between their rival children.  And who wants a civil war?

So "polygamy is bad because it will lead to succession wars" seems like an issue that would logically arise with the Faith of the Seven in Westeros.

Well, I think the slow development of kingdoms or states as political entities in their own right as well as the development of a different inheritance and succession system has more to do with that than marriage policy. Once it became clear that the eldest son - or at least a son - got the lion's share of his father's lands and titles the chances that the other sons would acquire the power base to actually challenge that son grew smaller and smaller. There was still struggles, to be sure, but it became much easier to neutralize a quarrelsome brother. If you had a vast empire - like the Hapsburgs later acquired, or the Plantagenets had under Henry II - you still split those vast holdings up under some of your sons since that was simply more practical.

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....which leads me to wonder just now......could THIS be one of the things that fueled the constant internal feuds among the 40 dragonrider families that ruled the Valyrian Freehold?

The Valyrian Freehold seems to be more like a very vast and intricate Greek city state or the Roman Republic. The influential nobles there - dragonlords and normal landowners alike - are more likely to have seen themselves as free citizens in that Freehold of theirs, and due to their enormous magical and military power as far above those kings of the earth. Just as the Roman nobles looked down on the Hellenistic kings.

And with the Valyrians never actually being a monarchy or a proper empire, chances are that there the reasons as to why they didn't expand their sphere of influence as quickly as they might have been has to do with the fact that many of the ruling families were not exactly all that expansionist. 

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Why it took them over 4,000 years after conquering the Ghiscari Empire to move on to conquering the Rhoynar to the west?  Heck, even the Rhoynish Wars dragged on 250 years...because the dragonriders always left after fighting off Rhoynish offensives, to go back to dealing with their internal feuds back home.  

See above. And chances are that not all the ruling factions actually wanted a Rhoynish war. Hell, there could even have been dragonlord houses who were friends with certain princes of the Rhoyne while other factions having interests in Volantis and the other Valyrian cities at the Rhoyne worked towards provoking a war to force the Freehold to come to defense of Volantis.

8 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

As for Starks practicing avuncular or materteral incest... well, everyone knows those Northmen are just a bunch of savage Picts. 

So you are proposing then that the First Men of the North/Starks have a different definition than incest than the Andals? They would have to if you assume that half-uncles marrying their half-nieces doesn't constitute incest in the North since, you know, the First Men also condemn incest and see the people practicing it as abominations. They don't have a church condemning those evil incest people, they presumably pick up stones and stone them to death all by themselves. Or do whatever you do to abominations born of and/or committing incest.

But chances are that the Starks have about the same definition of incest as the Faith. Which means core family intercourse - parents-children and sibling sex is evil - but everything else is technically permitted, although unusual.

Back when the Starks still wore crowns they could have done (and presumably did) whatever the hell they wanted to. But if avuncular marriages were evil then there must be a very good reason as to why Cregan Stark's sons could marry their nieces. Those must have been both arranged marriages.

6 hours ago, Jaak said:

What you need is family solidarity. The spares must be taken care of, yet kept in place. Consider Jaehaerys and Alysanne with 9 adult children, or Daeron Falseborn with 4, or Maekar with 4... plenty of space for sibling rivalry even so.

That is an important point. The Targaryens were never a numerous or large family. Jaehaerys I's nine children did not enlarge the family. All of his children seem to have predeceased their royal father, and only four of his children had legitimate offspring - Alyssa and Baelon had three sons together, one of which disappeared into obscurity, Aemon had one daughter, and Daella had one daughter (who was absorbed back into the family).

House Targaryen is actually hardly better of in the early 100s than it was during the first half of the reign of the Conqueror. King Viserys I has no son, and his brother Daemon seems to be the last male Targaryen around (assuming their obscure younger brother Aegon is already dead), a spare the king does not want to succeed him, and one who is stuck in a loveless and childless marriage thanks to the decision of the king not to allow Daemon to annul that match. After that come the Velaryons, and their male heir, Laenor, is not likely to continue the line, either.

Polygamy certainly couldn't have made Laenor straight, but it could have resolved both Viserys' and Daemon's problems. And the Realm would have been much better off had Viserys married Alicent and gotten a couple of sons by her before he declared Rhaenyra his heir.

6 hours ago, Colonel Green said:

Yes, because he liked tormenting her.  With his mistresses, when he was done with them, he just wanted them out of sight (unless, as with Bethany Bracken, they cheated on him, in which case he wanted them dead).

Basically, marrying them wouldn't have benefited him any.  He didn't need to.  Indeed, marrying them would have given them more power and leverage.

Would it? I'm not so sure about that. Besides, Aegon wasn't exactly rational in all of that. He fell for women again and again, most of whom were actually exploiting him, so one would would expect that he didn't actually refrain from marrying them because he thought that would enable him to get better rid of them. Aegon was the kind of guy who didn't care about any of that. He is the kind of guy who would find a way to terminate a marriage in a very real and literal sense very quickly if he felt the need to do so.

I mean, Maegor shows how this goes remarkably easy with both Alys and Theo Bolling. Just accuse somebody of a crime. Torture the accused until he or they confess, and then execute them all. That is not that hard. And it can be done to women just as well and as efficiently as it can be done to men.

5 hours ago, SFDanny said:

LV, if I misunderstood your previous comments, my apologies. I had thought you were more accepting of the possibility of such agreements having occurred, but I stand corrected. I don't disagree with any of the cited paragraph above, with this one exception. I do think there is an understanding reached by Aegon and the High Septon who crowned him that his marriages to his sisters and any children he has with them are seen as valid and legal. Aegon wasn't setting up a Targaryen dynasty that lasted the length of his life only. By accepting his rule over Westeros, the Faith accepted his family and their future rule as well. The fact the Faith continued to preach against other such marriages and saying the children resulting from them were "abominations" doesn't preclude the fact they accepted them in the case of the Targaryens. That a new High Septon tried to seize the opportunity presented to him by Aenys's weak rule to change the balance of power towards the Faith doesn't negate the fact that the entirety of Aegon's rule is one of acceptance by the Faith of his marriages and his sons and grandchildren.

Well, the text does not allow such an interpretation. This is what TSotD says on the matter, and this is also the paragraph on which I based my previous comments on the matter. It was part of the reading in London and sets up the whole Faith-Targaryen conflict:

Quote

Outline of Targaryen tradition, going back to Old Valyria:

The tradition amongst the Targaryens had always been to marry kin to kin. Wedding brother to sister was thought to be ideal. Failing that, a girl might wed an uncle, a cousin, or a nephew; a boy a cousin, aunt, or niece. This practice went back to Old Valyria, where it was common amongst many of the ancient families, particularly those who bred and rode dragons.
The blood of the dragon must remain pure, the wisdom went. Some of the sorcerer princes also took more than one wife when it pleased them, though this was less common than incestuous marriage. In Valryia before the Doom, wise men wrote, a thousand gods were honored, but none were feared, so few dared to speak against these customs.
This was not true in Westeros, where the power of the Faith went unquestioned. The old gods were still worshipped in the North, but in the rest of the realm there was a single god with seven faces, and his voice upon this earth was the High Septon of Oldtown.

Definition of incest as per the understanding of the Faith (and possibly by the First Men of the North as well):

And the doctrines of the Faith, handed down through centuries from Andalos itself, condemned the Valyrian marriage customs as practiced by the Targaryens. Incest was denounced as vile sin, whether between father and daughter, mother and son, or brother and sister, and the fruits of such unions were considered abominations in the sight of gods and men. With hindsight, it can be seen that conflict between the Faith and House Targaryen was inevitable.

Situation after the Conquest and throughout Aegon's reign:

Indeed, many amongst the Most Devout expected the High Septon to speak out against Aegon and his sisters during the Conquest, and were most displeased when the Father of the Faithful instead counseled Lord Hightower against opposing the Dragon, and even blessed and anointed him at his second coronation.
Familiarity is the father of acceptance, it is said. The High Septon who had crowned Aegon the Conqueror remained the Shepherd of the Faithful until his death in 11 AC, by which time the realm had grown accustomed to the notion of a king with two queens, who were both wives and sisters. King Aegon always took care to honor the Faith, confirming its traditional rights and privileges, exempting its wealth and property from taxation, and affirming that septons, septas, and other servants of the Seven accused of wrongdoing could only be tried by the Faith’s own courts.
The accord between the Faith and the Iron Throne continued all through the reign of Aegon I. From 11 AC to 37 AC, six High Septons wore the crystal crown; His Grace remained on good terms with each of them, calling at the Starry Sept each time he came to Oldtown.

How the Faith actually saw Aegon's marriages:

Yet the question of incestuous marriage remained, simmering below the courtesies like poison. Whilst the High Septons of King Aegon’s reign never spoke out against the king’s marriage to his sisters, neither did they declare it to be lawful. The humbler members of the Faith—village septons, holy sisters, begging brothers, Poor Fellows—still believed it sinful for brother to lie with sister, or for a man to take two wives.
Aegon the Conqueror had fathered no daughters, however, so these matters did not come to a head at once. The sons of the Dragon had no sisters to marry, so each of them was forced to seek elsewhere for a bride.

It is pretty clear. From the point of view of the Faith King Aegon's marriages with his two sisters were not 'lawful' or 'valid'. Their status was unclear. The High Septons did not publicly speak out against them but they also never blessed them or declared them lawful. That makes it clear that Aegon's marriages did not have the same status as a normal monogamous (and non-incestuous) marriage would have.

And the view of the matter was clear. It was a sin and a crime to do what Aegon did, and the children from those unions, the royal princes Aenys and Maegor, were abominations in the eyes of gods and men, deserving not to wear crowns but to be killed as abominations should be. That nobody publicly said that is the consequence of Aegon's vast political power, not the consequences of the Faith actually changing the views on the matter.

We can also reasonably infer from that fact that Aegon and his sisters did not marry in the sept on Dragonstone. It is very likely that they, too, married in a Valyrian ceremony - 'by blood and fire', whatever that means. If Maegor had to kill a dozen septons before he could find one who would marry him to Tyanna there is no chance whatsoever that Lord Aegon of Dragonstone could get a septon living on Dragonstone to marry him to both his sisters. Not to mention that Lord Aegon would have had no reason to ask a representative of the Faith of the Andals to marry him to his sisters, or to bless his marriage. That only became an issue after the Conquest.

When it becomes clear that neither Maegor nor Aenys will see reason in the matter - with Maegor continuing the polygamy thing and Aenys marrying his son to his daughter - the High Septon and the Faith at large tell the Realm and the world what the Targaryens. Abominations born of incest and polygamy that should be killed.

But, as it happens, they come out with that too late. Had a High Septon denounced the Targaryens in that fashion in the first or second decade after the Conquest it would have been much easier to get rid of them.

5 hours ago, SFDanny said:

I would put it a little differently. It seems that in a feudal society in which social mobility is frozen by birth, or nearly so, that there is always a need for the dispossessed of the peasantry to find a place in such orders. Or risk outright rebellion in times of crises. The difference between the Poor Fellows and the Kingswood Brotherhood is only the difference of a Septon's blessing.

The sparrows still seem to see themselves as Poor Fellows long before the order is actually restored. The best take on that whole thing is that there was always an underground tradition of Poor Fellows in the Riverlands (and perhaps in the Reach and the West, too), surviving among the other humble orders, the begging brothers, etc. That underground would have gotten a lot of recruits in the wake of the War of the Five Kings. But there is clearly an agenda there. The High Sparrow is not just some wandering septon or begging brother. He is the leader of the Poor Fellows. And they all go to KL for a reason. They want to take over/change the policies of the Faith.

One can also go back and read Jaime's threatening exchange with the men protecting Lancel at Castle Derry. They call themselves Poor Fellows, too, around the time King Tommen restores the order. They were there all the time. Refugees of war, etc. would never have this quickly revived a movement/institution that was long dead.

5 hours ago, SFDanny said:

The Faith is never ok with Targaryen customs. In the wake of the Conquest, they agree to give their backing to Aegon's power and to ignore the conflict between those customs and the Faith's own traditions. They continue to ignore the contradiction until a new High Septon sees an opportunity to test the power balance anew. Or that is how I see it.

The Faith works with Aegon. But they don't approve of his lifestyle. There is a difference there. It is like saying that the Vatican receiving and talking to the (former) German foreign minister, Guido Westerwelle, who was gay and living in an homosexual relationship, means they also accepted his way of life as something that is 'okay' or 'acceptable'.

5 hours ago, SFDanny said:

I would only say about your statement about what a prince can get away with, that it depends entirely on the King and the Prince in question. Does the king support the prince in "getting away" with what the prince is doing? Does the prince have an organized power base of his own? I do agree that being king can make a huge difference.

Only kings got away with polygamy in the Seven Kingdoms. King Garland II, King Ronard Storm, King Aegon, and King Maegor are the polygamous kings we know of. Prince Maegor did not get away with polygamy. His first wife did not accept his, the family of his first wife did not accept it, the Faith did not accept it, and the king did not accept it.

5 hours ago, SFDanny said:

While interesting, your point about the Starks really isn't precedent for what the Faith would accept. As worshippers of the Old Gods, the North's marriage customs are their own and the Faith's blessing on them hasn't been a issue for thousands of years, so why would what the Starks do represent the orthodoxy of the Faith in Oldtown? I do agree that the High Septon's letter and his suggestion of his niece as a better wife for Prince Maegor is more of a power grab on the Hightower family's part than a question of what constitutes incest.

Well, I'd say that avuncular marriages could also have been incest if the definition of incest as per the Faith's view in TSotD would have included such marriages.

And I'm sure that the Stark marriages in the united Targaryen realm could have caused problems if they were practicing incest up there by the definitions of the Faith. As it happens, Jonnel and Edric may have married their half-nieces during the reign of Baelor the Blessed, at a point in Westerosi when the Faith's power were very strong. The Starks no longer wore a crowns. If the dragon kings told them they could not indulge in marriages that were deemed incestuous then they could not indulge in marriages that were deemed incestuous.

But the point I'm making is just that - if Starkish avuncular marriages are no considered to be incest by their standards (and they are not, since else they would be condemned as incest), if the Faith's definitions of incest do not include avuncular marriages, if the High Septon does not condemn the Maegor-Rhaena match as abominable incest, and if Lord Velaryon later calmly and rationally points out Maegor marrying his half-niece would strengthen his claim without ever painting that as an ideal Valyrian incest marriage then, I think, we can say that avuncular marriages are not really seen as incestuous. At least not in the sense those forbidden and evil incestuous unions are.

5 hours ago, SFDanny said:

My only objection is that the Faith also clearly accepts Aegon's rule, the rule of both of his sister/queens, and Aenys's rule despite the contradiction between Aegon and his sister's marriage and the Faith's clear taboo on polygamy. The power of Aegon and his dragons keeps this contradiction between the Faith's dogma and the real world alive, but unresolved for decades. Open bloody war finally resolves this in favor of "Maegor's dictum" - "the strictures of the Faith might rule lesser men, but not the blood of the Dragon."

Yeah, sure. And that shows that the Faith is condemning polygamy as much as it condemns incest. The main issue the Faith had with both Prince and King Maegor was his polygamous lifestyle. Unlike Aegon I or Prince Aegon, Maegor never married his sister. But just as Aenys, Maegor was also an abomination born of incest and polygamy. Which means he deserved to die simply for that. Just as Rhaena's innocent twin daughters did, by the way.

That also makes it clear how the Faith, in the end, viewed the Targaryens - Aenys, his children, and Maegor. As abominations with no claim to anything. They were monsters to be put down. Much worse than bastards.

But to cut to the chase in this whole polygamy thing:

What I really want to read in 'Fire and Blood', is a discussion of the polygamy and issue and explanation as to why the later Targaryen kings did not indulge in that. There should be accounts of scenarios where various people - Targaryens themselves, advisers, lords trying to marry their children in the royal family, etc. - bring it up as an option, and then there should be somebody giving some reason why the king did shut those suggestions down. The more time passes this way the less often such suggestions should be made and the harsher the reaction should be.

But especially in the days of Jaehaerys I and Viserys I quite a few people should still come up with such suggestion.

I've been just thinking a little bit more on the Rhaenyra issue - why wouldn't she come up with the polygamy issue after her father successfully forced her to accept Laenor as her husband? Why didn't she say 'Okay, dad, I marry the faggot, but I want the right to take a second husband of my own choosing, just as out ancestor Aegon the Conqueror did!'? Why didn't Alicent Hightower insist that Aegon the Elder could marry Rhaenyra in addition to Laenor Velaryon? In such a marriage all children Rhaenyra would have would be most likely be fathered by Prince Aegon.

Or why did Daemon not insist that Viserys I grant him the right to take a second wife in addition to Rhea Royce after he refused to set the marriage aside?

A good way to address that could simply be to make Viserys I a man who was disgusted by the very notion of polygamy. And the issue with Rhaenyra could be simply be that the very idea that a woman could have two husbands was considered to be insane. A man with two wives can father children on each but a man sharing his wife with another husband can never be sure whether any children of hers are his seed or the seed of the other husband. And that would certainly have been an issue there. Especially where the eventual succession of Driftmark was concerned.

5 hours ago, SFDanny said:

It is an interesting question who the High Sparrow will end up supporting. I lean in the direction of a Faith of the Seven nationalist state. Governed by the High Sparrow himself. Why should he support any of the other claimants? I could see the Faith uniting behind Stannis if he hadn't cast his lot with R'hallor. Now? None of the contenders for the throne is pure enough for the High Sparrow. More likely he rules as both Lord Protector and High Septon.

The sparrows look for a savior. Aegon will provide him with one. And he is not an abomination born of incest - like Dany, Tommen, and Myrcella are. That is going to make an enormous difference there. There is also no hint that the High Septon wants to abolish the office of the king. He is adamant that the Faith must be the ultimate authority, the authority above the king - and I'm sure Aegon is not going to grant them that. But they will get along. There will come a lordly backlash against the presumptions of the new High Septon and the restoration of the Faith Militant, and to preserve what the High Septon has accomplished already - to allow the reformed orders to take root - he has to have the support of a king.

5 hours ago, Jaak said:

About maesters:

Who and when was the first Grand Maester?

We don't know. Probably not Gawen.

5 hours ago, Jaak said:

There was a Grand Maester when Aenys died - at royal court.

When, how and why was he replaced?

Gawen was killed by Maegor on Dragonstone in 42 AC when he took the crown, upon which the Conclave chose Grand Maester Myres, who was killed by Maegor in KL the same year when he objected to Maegor's marriage to Tyanna with a quote I give above somewhere. Then followed Grand Maester Desmond whom we know. He was replaced by Grand Maester Benifer who abandoned Maegor in 48 AC and fled to Pentos. Whether Jaehaerys I allowed him to return and restored him to office is unknown.

5 hours ago, Jaak said:

Was there any previous mention of the institution of Grand Maester?

Nope.

5 hours ago, Jaak said:

We know that High Septon existed pre-Conquest, at Oldtown Starry Sept, and stayed at Starry Sept till after Dance.

So what was the situation about Grand Maester pre-Conquest? In late Aegon´s reign?

Whatever Grand Maester there are where always at court - either in KL or on Dragonstone.

4 hours ago, Jaak said:

When does the second of the three Grand Maesters appear?

See above.

2 hours ago, Shmedricko said:

A while ago I made a post in the A+J=T thread color-coding similarities between the accounts of Tyrion's birth and those of stillborn Targaryens. I just updated that post (hidden behind a spoiler for now) with the descriptions of Alys, Jeyne, and Elinor's stillbirths in The Sons of the Dragon (which are a bit more detailed than the ones in TWOIAF), and I thought I'd make a post here too showing how they fit in:

The only new connection (i.e. one that wasn't covered by other quotes) is Alys' stillbirth having "a huge head." Prior to The Sons of the Dragon, none of the other stillborn Targaryens were described with that feature, as far as I know.

Yes, I noticed the huge head, too. That is a strong parallel to Tyrion, as well as the calumny about the private parts - which may actually have been true in the case of Maegor's child, of course.

There is always symbolism in those children. The fact that Rhaenyra's Visenya was allegedly born without a heart is a strong symbol hinting towards the Dance itself, and how it is going to kill the humanity in the people fighting the war.

But one really wonders what the symbolism of two of Maegor's children having no eyes.

Do we believe Tyanna actually poisoned them? I'm not sure. Especially the third child, the one Elinor gives birth to, sounds like a properly fucked-up, non-viable dragon-human hybrid with those rudimentary wings of his, presumably instead of arms.

And the hermaphrodite baby could be a hint towards gender-swapping ability of the dragons.

2 hours ago, Jaak said:

What´s the full list of Maegor´s children and their description? Those of contemporary attestation, that is exclusive of Silver Denys?

@Shmedricko gave that list above. It is also confirmed - not surprisingly - that Maegor had no bastards, and died childless and without heirs of his own body. Silver Denys may have looked like a Targaryen but he is about as likely to have been Maegor's bastard as I am.

2 hours ago, Jaak said:

The terms of Maegor´s decree after his wedding to Rhaena made Aerea his heir until he should have a son. Implying that if Maegor stayed sonless but got a healthy daughter, it would be Aerea on Iron Throne, not the daughter of Maegor...

Maegor most likely never expected to have a daughter. Very few fathers in medieval settings - and quite a few in our day and age - want daughters, or seriously consider the possibility that they could only father daughters. They want sons.

Who Maegor's heir would have been had he finally had a daughter with one of his many wives is an interesting question. The chances that Aerea would have been put aside for a daughter by Rhaena and Maegor is rather likely. The chance that a daughter by Elinor or Jeyne would have been set aside in this manner is more difficult to answer.

But I guess Maegor would have done it considering that a daughter of your own body is still much better than the daughter of the nephew you actually put down.

[Jaak]

Gawen did get an answer, and death - no opportunity to accept Maegor´s reply and live. Did Myres even get a reply?

Then again, Gawen did not know what Maegor was. Myres knew what had happened to Gawen. If Oldtown was in open rebellion, why was Myres even sent to Maegor? They could have sent nobody, on grounds that Maegor was an usurper, or that it was too dangerous to travel... or they could have sent a more timid one, who would have stayed silent like everybody else, or a more diplomatic one. Why did Citadel send Myres to a senseless suicide?

Also: Aegon had been accompanied by 6 maesters, habitually. Never later mentioned. Just Grand Maester is prominent. We occasionally hear of the presence of other maesters at court, even the fugitives at Dragonstone had another maester available immediately on beheading of Gawen, to send ravens... but rarely, and never as a group.

Why? Since when?

There are obvious advantages of having a body of several maesters, rather than a single Grand Maester at a time who might be displeasing to King and hard to replace. Just keeping a pool of a few maesters at court and not promoting any of them as Grand Maester would allow the King to pick the counsel he likes and ignore any he dislikes. And Iron Throne should have been able to afford them.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Jaak said:

Gawen did get an answer, and death - no opportunity to accept Maegor´s reply and live. Did Myres even get a reply?

He did get the kind of answer Maegor gave you when you dared criticize his actions:

Quote

Then His Grace announced his intent to take Tyanna of Pentos as his third wife. Though it was whispered that his mother the Queen Dowager had no love for the Pentoshi sorceress, only Grand Maester Myres dared speak against her openly. “Your one true wife awaits you in the Hightower,” Myres said. The king heard him out in silence, then descended from the throne, drew Blackfyre, and slew him where he stood.

 

1 hour ago, Jaak said:

Then again, Gawen did not know what Maegor was.

Gawen sure as hell knew what Maegor was. He lived at the very court where Maegor was raised for decades. Pretty much everyone who cared to know knew what Maegor was in 42 AC. Just as everyone at Robert's court knew what Joffrey was.

1 hour ago, Jaak said:

Myres knew what had happened to Gawen. If Oldtown was in open rebellion, why was Myres even sent to Maegor?

Oldtown was never in open rebellion. The Faith was. The Hightowers were pissed because of the way Maegor treated Ceryse Hightower, the one true queen of the Seven Kingdoms, but Lord Martyn did never take field against the Targaryens.

1 hour ago, Jaak said:

They could have sent nobody, on grounds that Maegor was an usurper, or that it was too dangerous to travel... or they could have sent a more timid one, who would have stayed silent like everybody else, or a more diplomatic one. Why did Citadel send Myres to a senseless suicide?

You should ask why the fool Myres was stupid enough to openly defy Maegor. We don't know. Perhaps his family name was Hightower, or he was a Hightower bastard? We hear about the Conclave meeting after Gawen's death to choose a new Grand Maester and discuss the succession - Maegor vs. Aegon - but we never learn why they chose this Myres chap.

1 hour ago, Jaak said:

Also: Aegon had been accompanied by 6 maesters, habitually. Never later mentioned. Just Grand Maester is prominent. We occasionally hear of the presence of other maesters at court, even the fugitives at Dragonstone had another maester available immediately on beheading of Gawen, to send ravens... but rarely, and never as a group.

One assumes that those six maesters who accompanied Aegon on his progresses were experts on the customs and laws of the Seven Kingdoms. Aegon would have turned to them when he was faced with a complicated legal decision. But the more Aegon learned about his kingdoms the less he would have needed such men, right?

Gawen was the Grand Maester. The citadel of Dragonstone would have had its own maester. And of course there would have been other maesters at court, too. Why not?

At this point in time the Grand Maester should have been as ill-defined competence as all the other advisers the king had. There was no formal ruling body of the Seven Kingdoms, no Small Council, nor fixed offices, nor precisely defined authority for the Hand or the other offices in existence, and most definitely no limitations on the amount of power the queen consort had. Visenya and Rhaenys were co-rulers of Aegon, and Visenya later also of Maegor. Tyanna had at times as much authority as Maegor.

[Colonel Green]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Would it? I'm not so sure about that. Besides, Aegon wasn't exactly rational in all of that. He fell for women again and again, most of whom were actually exploiting him, so one would would expect that he didn't actually refrain from marrying them because he thought that would enable him to get better rid of them.

Who among Aegon's mistresses were actually exploiting him?  If you mean that they desired power and status as his mistress, yes, obviously, but there's no indication he was unaware of this.  He appears to have been well-aware that his status as crown prince/king gave him the ability to have sex with as many beautiful, opportunistic women as he desired, and made ample use of that privilege.  There's no indication he ever desired to elevate them to the status of wife.  By the time he was king, especially, he'd have been well-established as a guy whose relationships didn't last.

[Jaak]

Did Faith propose anyone for King, while denouncing Targaryens as abominations?

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, Colonel Green said:

Who among Aegon's mistresses were actually exploiting him?  If you mean that they desired power and status as his mistress, yes, obviously, but there's no indication he was unaware of this.  He appears to have been well-aware that his status as crown prince/king gave him the ability to have sex with as many beautiful, opportunistic women as he desired, and made ample use of that privilege.  There's no indication he ever desired to elevate them to the status of wife.  By the time he was king, especially, he'd have been well-established as a guy whose relationships didn't last.

Lord Bracken wanted Barbra to marry King Aegon when Queen Naerys seemed to die, did he not? That would have hardly worked without the king's permission, right? And if there were plans to do that then Lord Bracken either already knew that Aegon would marry Barbra after Naerys was dead, or that he was confident that the man would agree to that. Independent of the weirdo polygamy thing it would have been very easy for Aegon to get rid of Naerys by allowing her to join the Faith while taking a new wife.

The women exploiting Aegon would definitely be Bethany Bracken, Jeyne Lothston and her mother, and, of course, Serenei of Lys. The only mistress who may have honestly loved Aegon while he was king would Melissa Blackwood. And even there I'm doubtful.

Thinking about that thing one wonders when exactly Naerys died. She predeceased Aegon but did she also predecease Serenei of Lys? If not, then one actually wonders why Aegon never made his Serenei his queen.

6 minutes ago, Jaak said:

Did Faith propose anyone for King, while denouncing Targaryens as usurpers?

No, why should they? The High Septon was king in all but name after the High Septon and the Faith Militant had effectively deposed King Aenys.

And the Targaryens weren't usurpers or anything (Maegor was, technically, but that makes only sense if you think Prince Aegon had a claim to the kingship which the Faith would deny), they were abominations and monsters. They had no right to anything, not even to live. Which is why the Faith Militant tried to kill them all.