The Book of Swords - The Sons of the Dragon SPOILERS

[zionius]

FWIW, I believe Ran first told us Alysanne was once Maegor's daughter in this podcast.

On 8/28/2018 at 10:56 PM, The Grey Wolf said:

 the Regency of Aegon III was originally a quiet affair under the wise leadership of a Velaryon rather than the chaotic mess it actually is in OTL.

Any source for this?

[The Grey Wolf]

23 minutes ago, zionius said:

Any source for this?

I read it on this forum somewhere.

[The Sleeper]

On 6/8/2018 at 1:51 AM, The Grey Wolf said:

Show material.

Yes, all of the Targaryen dynasty is prime material for development. It has enough highlights to keep a story going and yet leaves enough room for potential script writers to maneuver. It has a lot of material to cover and can be divided into more or less independent segments with a beginning and an end. It is both epic and has soap-opera elements while having enough variation between war and peace and a changing cast to keep it from getting old. It is also based on an already massively successful franchise. It is a pretty solid idea for a spin-off. 

[AlaskanSandman]

Probably been asked before, but what is Glydan's sources for this time?  I dont recall any listed

[The Grey Wolf]

3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Probably been asked before, but what is Glydan's sources for this time?  I dont recall any listed

There are none named. A difference between the Aenys I/Maegor I period and the Viserys I/Aegon II period.

[AlaskanSandman]

34 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

There are none named. A difference between the Aenys I/Maegor I period and the Viserys I/Aegon II period.

Hmmm. Interesting. It seems like much of what the Citadel knows about the Targaryens comes from Glydayn, even though he came after many of the kings he's writing about. Almost like the records held at the time were lost at the Citadel or something. Seems odd they have a lack of information on the earlier kings.

[The Wondering Wolf]

 

23 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

It seems like much of what the Citadel knows about the Targaryens comes from Glydayn,

Quote

Here follows an account of the reign of House Targaryen, from Aegon the Conqueror to Aerys the Mad King. Many are the maesters who have written on these matters, and the knowledge they have fashioned informs much of what will follow. But in one thing, I have taken a liberty: the account of Aegon's Conquest is not my own work but something lately discovered in the archives of the Citadel, forgotten since the sad end of Aegon, the Fifth of His Name. This fragment - part of a greater work that seemed intended as a history of the Targaryen kings - was found gathering dust among papers belonging to the Archmaester Gerold, the historian whose writings on the history of Oldtown were well regarded in his day. But it was not written by him. The style alone gives it away, but certain notes found with these papers indicate they were written by Archmaester Gyldayn, the last maester to serve at Summerhall before its destruction in the reign of Aegon the Fortunate, the Fifth of his Name, who may have sent them to Gerold for his commentary and approval.

 

The history of the Conquest is as complete as any, and that is why I have placed it here, so that - at last - more eyes than mine and the late Archmaester Gerold's may appreciate and learn from it. There are other manuscripts by this same hand that I have discovered, but many pages have been misplaced or destroyed, and still others have been damaged by neglect and by fire. It may be that one day, more will be found, and this lost masterwork will be fit to be copied and bound, for what I have found has stirred great excitement in the Citadel.

1. Apparently many maesters wrote about the Targs and Yandel had access to their works.

2. By the time Yandel published his book Gyldayn's writings were still not known to a wider circle.

[AlaskanSandman]

5 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

 

1. Apparently many maesters wrote about the Targs and Yandel had access to their works.

2. By the time Yandel published his book Gyldayn's writings were still not known to a wider circle.

So we know a Maester Gerold is the basis for his work on Aegon's Conquest at least. I wonder why it was recently discovered though, they dont keep this stuff cataloged? Kind of bad historians

[The Wondering Wolf]

Just now, AlaskanSandman said:

So we know a Maester Gerold is the basis for his work on Aegon's Conquest at least.

That is not what it says. Gerold just had some of Gyldayn's writings, he is not mentioned to have written about the Targs as well. 

Quote

Here follows an account of the reign of House Targaryen, from Aegon the Conqueror to Aerys the Mad King. Many are the maesters who have written on these matters, and the knowledge they have fashioned informs much of what will follow. [Gyldayn's] history of the Conquest is as complete as any, and that is why I have placed it here

We have no idea about the names of the other maesters, but apparently Yandel was able to read their works and compare them to Gyldayn's writings, so they clearly still exist.

[Bael's Bastard]

47 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Hmmm. Interesting. It seems like much of what the Citadel knows about the Targaryens comes from Glydayn, even though he came after many of the kings he's writing about. Almost like the records held at the time were lost at the Citadel or something. Seems odd they have a lack of information on the earlier kings.

If that were so, neither the Citadel nor anybody else in Westeros over the last forty years would know much about the Targaryans, seeing how Yandel  writes that the work he suggests to have been written by Archmaester Gyldayn was only "lately discovered in the archives of the Citadel, forgotten since the sad end of Aegon, the Fifth of His Name" (TWOIAF: The Reign of the Dragons).

There is no reason to believe that the sources Gyldayn used to make his compilation/commentary on the history of the Targaryen just a little over forty years ago (before the end of the reign of Aegon V) have been lost to the Citadel, or to the other libraries of Westeros.

[AlaskanSandman]

9 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

That is not what it says. Gerold just had some of Gyldayn's writings, he is not mentioned to have written about the Targs as well. 

We have no idea about the names of the other maesters, but apparently Yandel was able to read their works and compare them to Gyldayn's writings, so they clearly still exist.

This fragment - part of a greater work that seemed intended as a history of the Targaryen kings - was found gathering dust among papers belonging to the Archmaester Gerold, the historian whose writings on the history of Oldtown were well regarded in his day. But it was not written by him. The style alone gives it away, but certain notes found with these papers indicate they were written by Archmaester Gyldayn,

 

Your right, everything in TWOIAF about Aegon is from Glydan. Found in the belongings of Maester Gerold. Going back to my original point, no first hand account known from the actual time period.  The Maesters writing about Targaryen Kings could be all the ones after Aegon V, since so far, everything from Aegons Conquest, sons of the dragon, heirs of the dragon, the rogue prince, and the Blacks and the Greens, all come from Glydan. 

 

[Bael's Bastard]

11 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

So we know a Maester Gerold is the basis for his work on Aegon's Conquest at least. I wonder why it was recently discovered though, they dont keep this stuff cataloged? Kind of bad historians

Maester Gerold was a contemporary of Archmaester Gyldayn, who was alive as recently as 259 AC:

"This fragment—part of a greater work that seemed intended as a history of the Targaryen kings—was found gathering dust among papers belonging to the Archmaester Gerold, the historian whose writings on the history of Oldtown were well regarded in his day. But it was not written by him. The style alone gives it away, but certain notes found with these papers indicate they were written by Archmaester Gyldayn, the last maester to serve at Summerhall before its destruction in the reign of Aegon the Fortunate, the Fifth of his Name, who may have sent them to Gerold for his commentary and approval." (TWOIAF: The Reign of the Dragons)

 

 

[AlaskanSandman]

1 minute ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Maester Gerold was a contemporary of Archmaester Gyldayn, who was alive as recently as 259 AC:

"This fragment—part of a greater work that seemed intended as a history of the Targaryen kings—was found gathering dust among papers belonging to the Archmaester Gerold, the historian whose writings on the history of Oldtown were well regarded in his day. But it was not written by him. The style alone gives it away, but certain notes found with these papers indicate they were written by Archmaester Gyldayn, the last maester to serve at Summerhall before its destruction in the reign of Aegon the Fortunate, the Fifth of his Name, who may have sent them to Gerold for his commentary and approval." (TWOIAF: The Reign of the Dragons)

 

 

Good to know. Im throwing shade at their record keeping so i need to track where the accounts are coming from. Most of the Dance accounts for instance comes from 2 Maesters, a septon, and Hightower. Pretty Old Town influenced pov's

[The Wondering Wolf]

Yeah sure, all the remaining works on the Targs are written by maesters after the reign of Aegon V who based their writings on a work of one guy which was only recently discovered and in such a bad shape that it was not fit to be copied by the time of Yandel publishing his book. I guess we are done here.

[AlaskanSandman]

2 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Yeah sure, all the remaining works on the Targs are written by maesters after the reign of Aegon V who based their writings on a work of one guy which was only recently discovered and in such a bad shape that it was not fit to be copied by the time of Yandel publishing his book. I guess we are done here.

Thats not at all what i said lol you crack me up

Im saying as evident by the stories we have, everything of the first Targ's up to at least Aegon II comes to us from Glydane. Who likely wrote up to Aegon the V. Maybe others wrote about the ones after Aegon II but for now, all we have is Glydane. After Glydan died, other Maesters are obviously taking up the job. 

You can be snarky all you want, but the above quote says the Chapter of Aegon's Conquest comes from recently discovered writting by Gildayn. The Sons of the Dragon, The Heirs of the Dragon (Fire and Blood), the Rogue Prince, and Blacks and the Green's all come from Glydan.

Glydan does pull from two other Maesters, but we dont' know if the Citadel has those records from Munkin etc. Maybe they do, maybe they dont. All we know is that the tale being told to us is coming from Glydan. Who's writtings were just recently discovered. 

[Bael's Bastard]

3 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

This fragment - part of a greater work that seemed intended as a history of the Targaryen kings - was found gathering dust among papers belonging to the Archmaester Gerold, the historian whose writings on the history of Oldtown were well regarded in his day. But it was not written by him. The style alone gives it away, but certain notes found with these papers indicate they were written by Archmaester Gyldayn,

 

Your right, everything in TWOIAF about Aegon is from Glydan. Found in the belongings of Maester Gerold. Going back to my original point, no first hand account known from the actual time period. Come back to me when you have something. The Maesters writing about Targaryen Kings could be all the ones after Aegon V, since so far, everything from Aegons Conquest, sons of the dragon, heirs of the dragon, the rogue prince, and the Blacks and the Greens, all come from Glydan. 

 

Tyrion gifts King Joffrey a copy of "The Lives of Four Kings" by Maester Kaeth (ASOS: Sansa IV), and Oberyn attest to having seen the Citadel's copy in Oldtown. This book covered the reigns of Daeron I, Baelor I, [Viserys II], Aegon IV, and Daeron II. Kaeth was chosen to be Grand Maester in 257 AC at eighty years old, putting his birth during the reign of Aegon IV.

As for the sources that Gyldayn used to write his history prior to the end of Aegon V's reign in 259 AC, which let us remember never saw the light of day in Westeros, we have no reason to believe that those sources have gone missing, or that those sources didn't exist and Gyldayn just fabricated things and attributed them to fake sources.

[AlaskanSandman]

11 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Yeah sure, all the remaining works on the Targs are written by maesters after the reign of Aegon V who based their writings on a work of one guy which was only recently discovered and in such a bad shape that it was not fit to be copied by the time of Yandel publishing his book. I guess we are done here.

Quote

The Lives of Four Kings is a book written by Grand Maester Kaeth about the lives of four Targaryen kings; Daeron I, Baelor I, Aegon IV and Daeron II. It barely mentions the reign of Viserys II Targaryen, who ruled after Baelor and before Aegon

That's who's telling us about some kings after the Dance at least.

[Lord Varys]

On Aenys and Maegor we have no special sources as such. Keep in mind the Eustace and Mushroom are used to provide us with hidden or secret knowledge, not the kind of things everybody could derive from reading court accounts or official documents.

But for Aenys and Maegor we don't have any of that. We don't know what Tyanna and Maegor and Aenys and Alyssa and their children and court did behind closed doors. How they got along, how they plotted against each other, etc.

All we get in TSotD is stuff any perceptive person at court with open eyes and ears could have guessed at.

There is no secret to that kind of thing.

The idea that Gyldayn or Yandel are important primary sources for the history of the Targaryens is ridiculous. They are historians who write a history after the fact. They are not witnesses to the events they tell (at least for the most part).

[Bael's Bastard]

8 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Thats not at all what i said lol you crack me up

Im saying as evident by the stories we have, everything of the first Targ's up to at least Aegon II comes to us from Glydane. Who likely wrote up to Aegon the V. Maybe others wrote about the ones after Aegon II but for now, all we have is Glydane. After Glydan died, other Maesters are obviously taking up the job. 

You can be snarky all you want, but the above quote says the Chapter of Aegon's Conquest comes from recently discovered writting by Gildayn. The Sons of the Dragon, The Heirs of the Dragon (Fire and Blood), the Rogue Prince, and Blacks and the Green's all come from Glydan.

Glydan does pull from two other Maesters, but we dont' know if the Citadel has those records from Munkin etc. Maybe they do, maybe they dont. All we know is that the tale being told to us is coming from Glydan. Who's writtings were just recently discovered. 

There is no basis for what you are suggesting. We, as fans, have been given portions of histories from Gyldayn's lost work. Don't confuse that to mean that the history of the Targaryens known in Westeros comes from Gyldayn's lost work. On the contrary, Gyldayn's lost work never saw the light of day in Westeros until it is being given to Tommen, and is not among the sources of Targaryen history for Westerosi.

[AlaskanSandman]

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

The idea that Gyldayn or Yandel are important primary sources for the history of the Targaryens is ridiculous. They are historians who write a history after the fact. They are not witnesses to the events they tell (at least for the most part).

I never said they were the source of information. In fact, that' the point of what im saying, they were not the source of information and often reporting about it long after the fact. On top of that, they are reporting from (in the case of the Dance at least) sources that were actually there, but biased to a certain side or what limited knowledge they have. In the Dance, we know the sources, and know most are biased. Like Munkin. Mushroom and Daemon are our only out side sources from any Old Town allegiance. For instance, what ever sources for Jaehaerys they are pulling from, did that source go north with them? To first hand witness at least a good portion of what happened. Or were they at court the whole time? or not even a maester from court? Maybe another court fool?