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Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn

Wow, I never noticed that v.16

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"Run, you stupid cunt," Ser Clayton shouted. "Run warn the king. Lord Bolton is upon us." A brute he might have been, but Suggs did not want for courage. Sword in hand, he strode through the snow, putting himself between the riders and the king's tower, its beacon glimmering behind him like the orange eye of some strange god. "Who goes there? Halt! Halt!"

ADWD - The Sacrifice

Stannis is Sauron :o

 

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1 hour ago, Kandrax said:

Barristan calls Hizdahr "your grace"

In Meeren Graces are priestess and prostitutes.

:thumbsup:

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There had been no attacks while they had been at Craster's, neither wights nor Others. Nor would there be, Craster said. "A godly man got no cause to fear such. I said as much to that Mance Rayder once, when he come sniffing round. He never listened, no more'n you crows with your swords and your bloody fires. That won't help you none when the white cold comes. Only the gods will help you then. You best get right with the gods." (Sam II, ASOS 33)

So Craster is telling whoever will listen that the swords don't work against the Others, which we already knew. But he's also telling them that fire will not kill them. That theory has not been tested yet, but considering what Craster has been up to for years now, there's a chance he knew what he was talking about.

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17 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

There had been no attacks while they had been at Craster's, neither wights nor Others. Nor would there be, Craster said. "A godly man got no cause to fear such. I said as much to that Mance Rayder once, when he come sniffing round. He never listened, no more'n you crows with your swords and your bloody fires. That won't help you none when the white cold comes. Only the gods will help you then. You best get right with the gods." (Sam II, ASOS 33)

So Craster is telling whoever will listen that the swords don't work against the Others, which we already knew. But he's also telling them that fire will not kill them. That theory has not been tested yet, but considering what Craster has been up to for years now, there's a chance he knew what he was talking about.

Is it ever said fire is effective against the WWs? I don't recall any instance... :dunno:

 

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5 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Is it ever said fire is effective against the WWs? I don't recall any instance... :dunno:

No, it's not said anywhere that I can remember. But there's this assumption that dragon fire might work against them which I don't know. Craster might have been a jerk of the greatest order, but I think he knew a lot more than the NW or even the wildlings gave him credit for.

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Doesn't the ring of fire help to protect the group fleeing the Fist? And doesn't the Mance employ the same technique? 

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5 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Doesn't the ring of fire help to protect the group fleeing the Fist? And doesn't the Mance employ the same technique? 

Those were wights though at the Fist. 

"Get away!" Grenn took a step, thrusting the torch out before him. "Away, or you burn." He poked at it with the flames.
The Other's sword gleamed with a faint blue glow. It moved toward Grenn, lightning quick, slashing. When the ice blue blade brushed the flames, a screech stabbed Sam's ears sharp as a needle. The head of the torch tumbled sideways to vanish beneath a deep drift of snow, the fire snuffed out at once. And all Grenn held was a short wooden stick. He flung it at the Other, cursing, as Small Paul charged in with his axe. (Sam I, ASOS 18)

I don't know, it doesn't seem like the flame affected the Other.

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24 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

No, it's not said anywhere that I can remember. But there's this assumption that dragon fire might work against them which I don't know. Craster might have been a jerk of the greatest order, but I think he knew a lot more than the NW or even the wildlings gave him credit for.

Ah, gotcha! Kind of forgot about dragon fire... I think there's two ways the dragon fire will play an important part.

1 - the dragons will annihilate the wights, and help level the playing field a bit. The WWs are not that numerous apparently, and by the time the going gets proper tough, there will be way too many wights.

2 - since dragons are magical creatures, their fire may have anti-WW properties. 

I agree that Craster knows knew things, but will we ever learn about it? It would be interesting, but I doubt it will happen. :dunno:

 

14 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Doesn't the ring of fire help to protect the group fleeing the Fist? And doesn't the Mance employ the same technique? 

Against the wights.

But this chat here has made me curious about something... do the characters know for a fact that [regular] fire only works against the wights? I have a vague memory of some talk about this specifically - between Jon and Sam? - but I'm not sure. 

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24 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Ah, gotcha! Kind of forgot about dragon fire... I think there's two ways the dragon fire will play an important part.

1 - the dragons will annihilate the wights, and help level the playing field a bit. The WWs are not that numerous apparently, and by the time the going gets proper tough, there will be way too many wights.

2 - since dragons are magical creatures, their fire may have anti-WW properties. 

I agree that Craster knows knew things, but will we ever learn about it? It would be interesting, but I doubt it will happen. :dunno:

 

Against the wights.

But this chat here has made me curious about something... do the characters know for a fact that [regular] fire only works against the wights? I have a vague memory of some talk about this specifically - between Jon and Sam? - but I'm not sure. 

Perhaps you may be thinking of the scene outside of the cave with Bran and Leaf? 

Lemme find the quote. 

Or maybe that is not what you were thinking about? 

ETA: I just moved to my computer and I see that you were specifically asking about fire only against wights. My bad.

ETA again: Doesn't Melisandre say something about that? I know Tormund at one point also talks about fire against wights, but not only wights.

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1 minute ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Perhaps you may be thinking of the scene outside of the cave with Bran and Leaf? 

Lemme find the quote. 

Or maybe that is not what you were thinking about? 

As usual I have no idea what I'm thinking, you know that! :D

 

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13 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

There had been no attacks while they had been at Craster's, neither wights nor Others. Nor would there be, Craster said. "A godly man got no cause to fear such. I said as much to that Mance Rayder once, when he come sniffing round. He never listened, no more'n you crows with your swords and your bloody fires. That won't help you none when the white cold comes. Only the gods will help you then. You best get right with the gods." (Sam II, ASOS 33)

So Craster is telling whoever will listen that the swords don't work against the Others, which we already knew. But he's also telling them that fire will not kill them. That theory has not been tested yet, but considering what Craster has been up to for years now, there's a chance he knew what he was talking about.

I suspect the word "bloody" is a clue here. The Night's Watch leaders are always talking about wanting Jon's blood and his wolf north of the Wall - readers assume that the blood reference is a figurative way of referring to his Stark heritage, and that Starks have a special rapport with the Free Folk. The direwolf is a special tool for tracking or something. But I think it's literally the blood - Jon's blood - that is important. Whether it's "Stark blood" or some other special quality carried by Jon, I don't know.

I know this sounds like splitting hairs, but I think Craster is saying that the regular Night's Watch people don't have the right kind of blood so their fires won't help them.

Another one of my fanciful tangents that might be relevant: possible wordplay on "chill" and "leech". We see Roose Bolton constantly using leeches to remove his own blood, with the rationale that it helps him to keep his bad temper in check (if I recall correctly). He also takes time to go out and hunt wolves and make a bedspread and gloves for himself - adorning himself in wolfskin, as a Bolton traditionally would. Roose took on Arya (disguised as Nymeria / Nan) as his cupbearer when he realized she was not afraid of leeches. (Is this the same as being unafraid of wights or white walkers?) He also has her put letters in the fire and he puts a book in the fire. Words in the fire, sword in the fire. That whole interlude with Roose Bolton at Harrenhal may be some kind of foreshadowing about how to beat the "chill" associated with white walkers.

"Chill" came to my attention as I've recently studied Brienne, whose first betrothal died of a chill. Dunk's mentor, Ser Arlan of Pennytree, who was a true knight, also died of a chill. Now I'm wondering whether "shield" is also part of this wordplay . . . In his fight with Prince Aerion, Dunk uses the prince's own shield to defeat him.

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On 1/16/2018 at 8:30 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

I know, I also wanted to quote that but somehow didn't. I meant, is there a possibility that Ned chose his clothing on his own for some reason?

I haven't caught up the whole thread yet, so apologies if anyone has got there first, but I read Ned's reversed colours being a deliberate choice on his own part, because he is forced to swear to something he knows is a lie. Taking bastard's colours indicate he is doing something he considers dishonourable. He is giving the lie to the lie.

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16 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Doesn't Melisandre say something about that?

Yes, she and Stannis both seem to know a lot about it, when they gather the contenders for Lord Commander together and Stannis demands from them (and not from Jon, who Sam has not put up as a compromise candidate yet) the Gift and all the castles on the Wall except Eastwatch, Castle Black, and the Shadow Tower. 

Quote

“Nightfires?” Bowen Marsh gave Melisandre an uncertain look. “We’re to light nightfires now?”
“You are.” The woman rose in a swirl of scarlet silk, her long copper-bright hair tumbling about her shoulders. “Swords alone cannot hold this darkness back. Only the light of the Lord can do that. Make no mistake, good sers and valiant brothers, the war we’ve come to fight is no petty squabble over lands and honors. Ours is a war for life itself, and should we fail the world dies with us.”...

Quote

“Dragonglass.” The red woman’s laugh was music. “Frozen fire, in the tongue of old Valyria. Small wonder it is anathema to these cold children of the Other.”

Quote

Melisandre smiled. “Necromancy animates these wights, yet they are still only dead flesh. Steel and fire will serve for them. The ones you call the Others are something more.”
“Demons made of snow and ice and cold,” said Stannis Baratheon. “The ancient enemy. The only enemy that matters.”

(ASoS, Ch.78 Samwell V)

Stannis also assures them he doesn't ask the Night's Watch fight against the usurpers that plagued him, he just wanted them to defend the wall.

He also has decided on the Nightfort as his seat without consulting anyone but (I think is implied) Melisandre, and Sam's report of the black gate. Stannis tells Sam he will take him to the Black gate, implying that he too intends to pass by it into the lands of the North, bring the fight to the Others.

And only now I notice how their certainty, and their knowledge of the gravity of the threat, and the need to repair the castles, and man them, and mine obsidian at Dragonstone to arm them, and negotiate with the Eyrie to feed them,  and generally get ready for the Others, makes Stannis's later decision to leave Castle Black for the purpose of going south to take the Dreadfort with Mors Umber and Arnolf Karstark so confusing, and so very poorly justified. 

It seems a lapse of character, a lapse to the point of senility, for both Stannis and Melisandre (who is fully supportive, with her visions of a wooden town with wooden streets). Sure, Melisandre will stay behind, and when it goes pear-shaped, she will say it was the fault of their pride and nothing to do with her and her visions, just like she did after the Battle of Blackwater. It surprises me that Stannis hasn't insisted on her bearing his banner this time, that she gets to do that old trick again, too.

The Jon-Sam convo might have been this one

Quote

“The armor of the Others is proof against most ordinary blades, if the tales can be believed, and their own swords are so cold they shatter steel. Fire will dismay them, though, and they are vulnerable to obsidian. I found one account of the Long Night that spoke of the last hero slaying Others with a blade of dragonsteel. Supposedly they could not stand against it.”
“Dragonsteel?” Jon frowned. “Valyrian steel?”

“That was my first thought as well.”

(AFfC, Ch.05 Samwell I; ADwD, Ch.07 Jon II)

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23 minutes ago, Walda said:

Yes, she and Stannis both seem to know a lot about it, when they gather the contenders for Lord Commander together and Stannis demands from them (and not from Jon, who Sam has not put up as a compromise candidate yet) the Gift and all the castles on the Wall except Eastwatch, Castle Black, and the Shadow Tower. 

(ASoS, Ch.78 Samwell V)

Stannis also assures them he doesn't ask the Night's Watch fight against the usurpers that plagued him, he just wanted them to defend the wall.

He also has decided on the Nightfort as his seat without consulting anyone but (I think is implied) Melisandre, and Sam's report of the black gate. Stannis tells Sam he will take him to the Black gate, implying that he too intends to pass by it into the lands of the North, bring the fight to the Others.

And only now I notice how their certainty, and their knowledge of the gravity of the threat, and the need to repair the castles, and man them, and mine obsidian at Dragonstone to arm them, and negotiate with the Eyrie to feed them,  and generally get ready for the Others, makes Stannis's later decision to leave Castle Black for the purpose of going south to take the Dreadfort with Mors Umber and Arnolf Karstark so confusing, and so very poorly justified. 

It seems a lapse of character, a lapse to the point of senility, for both Stannis and Melisandre (who is fully supportive, with her visions of a wooden town with wooden streets). Sure, Melisandre will stay behind, and when it goes pear-shaped, she will say it was the fault of their pride and nothing to do with her and her visions, just like she did after the Battle of Blackwater. It surprises me that Stannis hasn't insisted on her bearing his banner this time, that she gets to do that old trick again, too.

Thank you, @Walda :)

That is the quote was the one I was thinking of, but the forum crashed and went out last evening and I could not add anything else.

  • Melisandre smiled. “Necromancy animates these wights, yet they are still only dead flesh. Steel and fire will serve for them. The ones you call the Others are something more.”

“Demons made of snow and ice and cold,” said Stannis Baratheon. “The ancient enemy. The only enemy that matters.”

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1 hour ago, Walda said:

"Swords alone cannot hold this darkness back. Only the light of the Lord can do that."

Though it doesn't mean, that just any fire will be effective against the Others. But fire lighted by red priests, maybe. 

ACOK, Davis I: "It was a time when darkness lay heavy on the world. To oppose it, the hero must have a hero’s blade, oh, like none that had ever been. And so for thirty days and thirty nights Azor Ahai labored sleepless in the temple, forging a blade in the sacred fires."

Maybe Azor Ahai was red priest. Maybe the fires, lighted by red priests, carry in them R'hllor's power, and thus maybe this kind of fire is able to kill the Other.

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"He did indeed. And soon after, Ser Denys left his pregnant Waynwood wife to ride to war. He died during the Battle of the Bells, of an excess of gallantry and an axe. When they told his lady of his death she perished of grief, and her newborn son soon followed. No matter. Jon Arryn had gotten himself a young wife during the war, one he had reason to believe fertile. He was very hopeful, I'm sure, but you and I know that all he ever got from Lysa were stillbirths, miscarriages, and poor Sweetrobin.

 

LF knew it was Lysa and not Catelyn who came to him.

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8 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

"He did indeed. And soon after, Ser Denys left his pregnant Waynwood wife to ride to war. He died during the Battle of the Bells, of an excess of gallantry and an axe. When they told his lady of his death she perished of grief, and her newborn son soon followed. No matter. Jon Arryn had gotten himself a young wife during the war, one he had reason to believe fertile. He was very hopeful, I'm sure, but you and I know that all he ever got from Lysa were stillbirths, miscarriages, and poor Sweetrobin.

 

LF knew it was Lysa and not Catelyn who came to him.

That was after the duel. Wasn't there a night before, when he got super drunk...

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