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Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn

Wow, I never noticed that v.16

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Marwyn & Axell Florent look a lot alike.

AXELL FLORENT

ACOK Davos I

Queen Selyse's uncle was a keg of a man with thick arms and bandy legs. He had the prominent ears of a Florent, even larger than his niece's. The coarse hair that sprouted from his ears did not stop him hearing most of what went on in the castle. For ten years Ser Axell had served as castellan of Dragonstone while Stannis sat on Robert's council in King's Landing, but of late he had emerged as the foremost of the queen's men. "Ser Davos, it is good to see you, as ever," he said.

ASOS Davos II

Ser Axell was short and muscular, with a barrel chest, thick arms, bandy legs, and hair growing from his ears. The queen's uncle, he had served as castellan of Dragonstone for a decade, and had always treated Davos courteously, knowing he enjoyed the favor of Lord Stannis. But there was neither courtesy nor warmth in his tone as he said, "Ser Davos, and undrowned. How can that be?"

ASOS Davos IV

A ship. Davos studied the other man's face. Ser Axell had big Florent ears, much like the queen's. Coarse hair grew from them, as from his nostrils; more sprouted in tufts and patches beneath his double chin. His nose was broad, his brow beetled, his eyes close-set and hostile. He would sooner give me a pyre than a ship, he said as much, but if I do him this favor . . .

MARWYN

AFFC Samwell V—Marwyn

Marwyn wore a chain of many metals around his bull's neck. Save for that, he looked more like a dockside thug than a maester. His head was too big for his body, and the way it thrust forward from his shoulders, together with that slab of jaw, made him look as if he were about to tear off someone's head. Though short and squat, he was heavy in the chest and shoulders, with a round, rock-hard ale belly straining at the laces of the leather jerkin he wore in place of robes. Bristly white hair sprouted from his ears and nostrils. His brow beetled, his nose had been broken more than once, and sourleaf had stained his teeth a mottled red. He had the biggest hands that Sam had ever seen. 

The thing that immediately struck me about the common elements here is that they are echoes of Tyrion's description or story:

My legs are short and twisted, and I walk with difficulty. ... My arms are strong enough, but again, too short. ... Well, my legs may be too small for my body, but my head is too large, although I prefer to think it is just large enough for my mind.

... I suppose I do rather look like a Grumkin.

(Game 13, Tyrion II)

Tyrion gave a sigh. "But do go on, I pray you. I love a good tale."

"And well you might, since you were said to have one, a stiff curly tail like a swine's Your head was monstrous huge, we heard, half again the size of your body, and you had been born with thick black hair and a beard besides, an evil eye and lion's claws. Your teeth were so long you could not close your mouth, and between your legs were a girl's privates as well as a boy's."

... "Be sure and tell that story to my father. It will delight him as much as it did me. The part about my tail, especially. I did have one, but he had it lopped off."

(Storm 38, Tyrion V)

... a huge bald sailor tucked him under one arm and carried him squirming to the hold, where an empty wine cask awaited him. It was a squat little cask, and a tight fit even for a dwarf. ... He was crammed face-first into the cask with his knees pushed up against his ears. The stub of his nose itched horribly, but his arms were pinned so tightly that he could not reach to scratch it.

(Dance 1, Tyrion 1)

I left in the bit about the tail because I think it's relevant to the possibility that Tyrion embodies the map of Westeros. We know that the land has places called The Neck, The Fingers, The God's Eye, etc. Above The Neck is the area called The North which, like Tyrion's head, is too large for its "body": "It is often said that the North is as large as the other six kingdoms put together, but the truth is somewhat less grand: the North, as ruled today by House Stark of Winterfell, comprises little more than a third of the realm." (TWoIaF, p. 135) Tyrion's "lopped off" tail could represent the land bridge known as The Arm of Dorne that was severed from Westeros and became the Stepstones archipelago.

But I like your follow-up about these descriptions being common to dark magic practitioners. Recently, I happened to re-read the scene where Dany watches a magician conjure a ladder out of smoke and then climb it, disappearing when he reaches the top. I wondered whether this foreshadowed Tyrion, climbing the ladder to Tywin's chamber and then "disappearing" on the boat Varys puts him on. Right after the smoke ladder, Quaithe gives Dany the first, "To go north, you must journey south . . . " advice.

So two thoughts: 1. If Tyrion is the map of Westeros, Quaithe's weird GPS directions might be because Tyrion is all over the map - upside down in a wine cask, half-Lannister, half-Targaryen (possibly), traveling to the Wall and the Vale and to Essos and down the Rhoyne. 2. I wonder whether Tyrion is one of your dark magic practitioners?

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2 hours ago, Seams said:

The thing that immediately struck me about the common elements here is that they are echoes of Tyrion's description or story:

My legs are short and twisted, and I walk with difficulty. ... My arms are strong enough, but again, too short. ... Well, my legs may be too small for my body, but my head is too large, although I prefer to think it is just large enough for my mind.

... I suppose I do rather look like a Grumkin.

(Game 13, Tyrion II)

Tyrion gave a sigh. "But do go on, I pray you. I love a good tale."

"And well you might, since you were said to have one, a stiff curly tail like a swine's Your head was monstrous huge, we heard, half again the size of your body, and you had been born with thick black hair and a beard besides, an evil eye and lion's claws. Your teeth were so long you could not close your mouth, and between your legs were a girl's privates as well as a boy's."

... "Be sure and tell that story to my father. It will delight him as much as it did me. The part about my tail, especially. I did have one, but he had it lopped off."

(Storm 38, Tyrion V)

... a huge bald sailor tucked him under one arm and carried him squirming to the hold, where an empty wine cask awaited him. It was a squat little cask, and a tight fit even for a dwarf. ... He was crammed face-first into the cask with his knees pushed up against his ears. The stub of his nose itched horribly, but his arms were pinned so tightly that he could not reach to scratch it.

(Dance 1, Tyrion 1)

I left in the bit about the tail because I think it's relevant to the possibility that Tyrion embodies the map of Westeros. We know that the land has places called The Neck, The Fingers, The God's Eye, etc. Above The Neck is the area called The North which, like Tyrion's head, is too large for its "body": "It is often said that the North is as large as the other six kingdoms put together, but the truth is somewhat less grand: the North, as ruled today by House Stark of Winterfell, comprises little more than a third of the realm." (TWoIaF, p. 135) Tyrion's "lopped off" tail could represent the land bridge known as The Arm of Dorne that was severed from Westeros and became the Stepstones archipelago.

But I like your follow-up about these descriptions being common to dark magic practitioners. Recently, I happened to re-read the scene where Dany watches a magician conjure a ladder out of smoke and then climb it, disappearing when he reaches the top. I wondered whether this foreshadowed Tyrion, climbing the ladder to Tywin's chamber and then "disappearing" on the boat Varys puts him on. Right after the smoke ladder, Quaithe gives Dany the first, "To go north, you must journey south . . . " advice.

So two thoughts: 1. If Tyrion is the map of Westeros, Quaithe's weird GPS directions might be because Tyrion is all over the map - upside down in a wine cask, half-Lannister, half-Targaryen (possibly), traveling to the Wall and the Vale and to Essos and down the Rhoyne. 2. I wonder whether Tyrion is one of your dark magic practitioners?

Oh, great find! I did notice that a lot of the descriptions were hitting on the Craster/Casterly/Lannister themes which is another complication to me finishing a proper thread. Craster, Marwyn, Qyburn and Mirri are all tied to sheep and sacrifice, and Maggy gets a round-about tie in when Cersei asks Qyburn about Maggy and sheep come up. Also with sorcery being such a big thing in the Westerlands.

Tyrion being a practictioner implies natural ability or affinity - I'll have to watch out for any hints about that. Tyrion may be a sheep as he's called himself a sheep before therefore implying that his condition may be the result of dark magic. Maybe this is part of why he seems to be a chimera, and I suspect the son of both Tywin and Aerys. What happened to Rhaego would be consistent with this. I'm also thinking of I think Rhaenyra who had a deformed stillborn. She got thick and stocky at a young age and had issues with fertility/dying kids. The Florents claim to be very Gardener which is tied to Garth Greenhand. Garth the Green in the old tales is tied to human sacrifice.

Think you're onto something about Tyrion being a map to Westeros.

Adding: King Tommen lost Brightroar in Valyria looking for treasure and sorcery so some Lannisters at least have been into this. Looking at the sword use by Ilyn at the Purple Wedding which is likely from Tywin - it looks like sorcery/sacrifice to me.

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On 5/4/2018 at 9:39 AM, Widow's Watch said:

I find this symbolically interesting. The scene is happening where the dragon skulls have been put away.

A vague light was leaking through the row of long narrow windows set high in the cellar wall. The skulls of the Targaryen dragons were emerging from the darkness around them, black amidst grey. "Day comes too soon." A new day. A new year. A new century. I survived the Green Fork and the Blackwater, I can bloody well survive King Joffrey's wedding. (Tyrion VII, ASOS 58)

On 5/4/2018 at 12:17 PM, Widow's Watch said:

All in all to me it just seems like it's the emergence of the Targaryens from the dark. Like it's a gradual thing. This scene is taking place right before Joffrey's wedding. 

There is no new Lannister era. Whatever there is going to be short-lived. 

That reminded me of this passage, which I find symbolically interesting for the same reason:

The light of the rising sun glittered off the points of five hundred lances and ten times as many spears. The night's grey banners were reborn in half a hundred gaudy colors. And above them all flew two regal dragons on night-black fields: the great three-headed beast of King Aerys I Targaryen, red as fire, and a white-winged fury breathing scarlet flame.

Not Maekar after all, Dunk knew, when he saw those banners. The banners of the Prince of Summerhall showed four three-headed dragons, two and two, the arms of the fourth-born son of the late King Daeron II Targaryen. A single white dragon announced the presence of the King's Hand, Lord Brynden Rivers.

Bloodraven himself had come to Whitewalls. (The Mystery Knight)

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I find this symbolically interesting. The scene is happening where the dragon skulls have been put away.

A vague light was leaking through the row of long narrow windows set high in the cellar wall. The skulls of the Targaryen dragons were emerging from the darkness around them, black amidst grey. "Day comes too soon." A new day. A new year. A new century. I survived the Green Fork and the Blackwater, I can bloody well survive King Joffrey's wedding. (Tyrion VII, ASOS 58)

This does seem significant in the context of the conversation Arya overhears between Illyrio and "the torchbearer" in the same area with the dragon skulls below Maegor's Holdfast. I think that conversation represents the emergence of a new "Dance of the Dragons" challenge for the Iron Throne. Illyrio (the man with the forked beard) says something like, "You've survived this dance more than once" to the torchbearer. (Many have assumed the other man is Varys, but I don't think so.)

Here, Tyrion is say that he survived both the "Green" and the "Black." Those were the two factions during the Dance of the Dragons. The wildfyre and Blackwater in the recent battle might represent a similar clash of green and black. The phrase "bloody well survive" is a hint that Tyrion will escape down the well after Joffrey's death.

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3 hours ago, Seams said:

This does seem significant in the context of the conversation Arya overhears between Illyrio and "the torchbearer" in the same area with the dragon skulls below Maegor's Holdfast. I think that conversation represents the emergence of a new "Dance of the Dragons" challenge for the Iron Throne. Illyrio (the man with the forked beard) says something like, "You've survived this dance more than once" to the torchbearer. (Many have assumed the other man is Varys, but I don't think so.)

Who do you think was with Illyrio, if you don't mind me asking.

In terms of Arya, I find her with the dragon skulls interesting, especially when I take into account that she lived her whole life with a hidden dragon, one who unlike Dany and Aegon (he's still a dragon even if he's a Blackfyre) has yet to emerge from the darkness.

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6 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Who do you think was with Illyrio, if you don't mind me asking.

Well, I was starting to spin a fanciful yarn, but was educated that GRRM has confirmed that the torchbearer really was Varys:

 

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Hesitantly, Ned followed. Littlefinger led him into a tower, down a stair, across a small sunken courtyard, and along a deserted corridor where empty suits of armor stood sentinel along the walls. They were relics of the Targaryens, black steel with dragon scales cresting their helms, now dusty and forgotten. (Eddard IV, AGOT 20)

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They continued down the serpentine and across the small sunken courtyard. Ser Dontos shoved open a heavy door and lit a taper. They were inside a long gallery. Along the walls stood empty suits of armor, dark and dusty, their helms crested with rows of scales that continued down the backs. As they hurried past, the taper's light made the shadows of each scale stretch and twist. The hollow knights are turning into dragons, she thought. (Sansa V, ASOS 61)

Two different takes on the Targaryen suits of armor. These two scenes happen something like a year apart from each other. 

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2 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

 

Two different takes on the Targaryen suits of armor. These two scenes happen something like a year apart from each other. 

The Brotherhood without Banners are also called the Knights of the Hollow Hill. Perhaps that second bit foreshadows them joining Daenerys? 

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9 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

The Brotherhood without Banners are also called the Knights of the Hollow Hill. Perhaps that second bit foreshadows them joining Daenerys? 

They do have a Red Priest with them. So the moment Dany and her dragons will arrive to Westeros, he will definitely want to see them. And because from original founders of that brotherhood, he is the only one left, the others will go with him, rather than staying with MadCat, if she will be still undead at that time.

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1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

The Brotherhood without Banners are also called the Knights of the Hollow Hill. Perhaps that second bit foreshadows them joining Daenerys? 

Anything is possible. But I always felt the BwB's story was going to be in the north with the Long Night coming, especially with Thoros still being part of it. Mel is at the Wall already and Moqorro is headed toward Dany and there's this whole UnCat situation. 

I liked the quotes for their symbolic significance mainly, the reemergence of the dragons and not just the winged kind. 

Both Tyrion and Sansa within 3 chapters are in the presence of Targaryen relics. Tyrion with the skulls emerging from the darkness right before Joffrey's death and Sansa with the suits of armor that are "turning into dragons" as she is fleeing King's Landing right after Joffrey died. 

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9 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Three characters in ASOIAF were a floppy staw hat: Egg, Samwell, Arya, and Young Griff. 

Some are floppy but not straw.

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Idk if anyone has mentioned this and I don't feel like reading this entire thread bc I'm lazy, but I've noticed two things I'm deemed interesting, even though they are probably just coincidence:

The youngest and the oldest Stark children both have names that start with an R, and they both are the only Stark children that do not get a pov chapter.

In AGOT, both Jon and Cat injure their hands. The only thing the two both have in common is that they are not true Starks, Cat is only by name, not blood and Jon is by blood, but not by name

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2 hours ago, Seams said:

Some are floppy but not straw.

I know what you are thinking, but see Egg's hat is sometimes described as a floppy hat and sometimes a floppy straw hat. So, I think it's safe to assume that the three other floppy or straw hats are floppy straw hats. 

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9 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I know what you are thinking, but see Egg's hat is sometimes described as a floppy hat and sometimes a floppy straw hat. So, I think it's safe to assume that the three other floppy or straw hats are floppy straw hats. 

I can't use the search site on this computer so I can't remember who had what, but I do know that Sam wore his floppy hat in the pouring rain. A straw hat is something you wear to keep the sun off and would be worthless in a rain storm.

But I don't know what the floppy hats represent, so it's probably not worth debating which are straw and which aren't.

How they relate to Dany's "floppy ears" tokar, as nicknamed by Brown Ben Plumm, is probably a better question to explore.

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A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys X

Was that first flight a thousand years ago? Sometimes it seemed as if it must be.
The sun grew hotter as it rose, and before long her head was pounding. Dany's hair was growing out again, but slowly. "I need a hat," she said aloud. Up on Dragonstone she had tried to make one for herself, weaving stalks of grass together as she had seen Dothraki women do during her time with Drogo, but either she was using the wrong sort of grass or she simply lacked the necessary skill. Her hats all fell to pieces in her hands. Try again, she told herself. You will do better the next time. You are the blood of the dragon, you can make a hat. She tried and tried, but her last attempt had been no more successful than her first.

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10 hours ago, Seams said:

I can't use the search site on this computer so I can't remember who had what, but I do know that Sam wore his floppy hat in the pouring rain. A straw hat is something you wear to keep the sun off and would be worthless in a rain storm.

But I don't know what the floppy hats represent, so it's probably not worth debating which are straw and which aren't.

Bingo!

10 hours ago, Seams said:

How they relate to Dany's "floppy ears" tokar, as nicknamed by Brown Ben Plumm, is probably a better question to explore.

 Nope, I am pretty sure it's pointless. :)

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10 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys X

Was that first flight a thousand years ago? Sometimes it seemed as if it must be.
The sun grew hotter as it rose, and before long her head was pounding. Dany's hair was growing out again, but slowly. "I need a hat," she said aloud. Up on Dragonstone she had tried to make one for herself, weaving stalks of grass together as she had seen Dothraki women do during her time with Drogo, but either she was using the wrong sort of grass or she simply lacked the necessary skill. Her hats all fell to pieces in her hands. Try again, she told herself. You will do better the next time. You are the blood of the dragon, you can make a hat. She tried and tried, but her last attempt had been no more successful than her first.

This sounds like the opposite of Bran, opening his third eye: she is rising toward the sun instead of falling to the earth. The grass goes back to that passage where she looks out across the Dothraki Sea and Ser Jorah tells her that there are many kinds of grass with different colors and properties. Instead of opening her eye, she would be covering her brow; shading it from the light.

I've been thinking a lot about Bloodraven and Bittersteel lately, and I couldn't help noticing:

The Great Bastards = Battered Grass Hat.

Just sayin'.

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5 hours ago, Seams said:

This sounds like the opposite of Bran, opening his third eye: she is rising toward the sun instead of falling to the earth. The grass goes back to that passage where she looks out across the Dothraki Sea and Ser Jorah tells her that there are many kinds of grass with different colors and properties. Instead of opening her eye, she would be covering her brow; shading it from the light.

I've been thinking a lot about Bloodraven and Bittersteel lately, and I couldn't help noticing:

The Great Bastards = Battered Grass Hat.

Just sayin'.

Hey, that is clever. I think maybe in a way you are on to something.

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys III

"The Dothraki sea," Ser Jorah Mormont said as he reined to a halt beside her on the top of the ridge. Beneath them, the plain stretched out immense and empty, a vast flat expanse that reached to the distant horizon and beyond. It was a sea, Dany thought. Past here, there were no hills, no mountains, no trees nor cities nor roads, only the endless grasses, the tall blades rippling like waves when the winds blew. "It's so green," she said.
"Here and now," Ser Jorah agreed. "You ought to see it when it blooms, all dark red flowers from horizon to horizon, like a sea of blood. Come the dry season, and the world turns the color of old bronze. And this is only hranna, child. There are a hundred kinds of grass out there, grasses as yellow as lemon and as dark as indigo, blue grasses and orange grasses and grasses like rainbows. Down in the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai, they say there are oceans of ghost grass, taller than a man on horseback with stalks as pale as milkglass. It murders all other grass and glows in the dark with the spirits of the damned. The Dothraki claim that someday ghost grass will cover the entire world, and then all life will end."
That thought gave Dany the shivers. "I don't want to talk about that now," she said. "It's so beautiful here, I don't want to think about everything dying."
 
I truly think Bran, in his own way, will be Jon's "ice armour" at some point. So with that in mind, compare the "I don't want to talk about that", with this progression of "opening":
 

A Game of Thrones - Jon V

"That's stupid," Jon said. He took a deep breath to gather his thoughts. "I remember once I asked Maester Luwin why he wore a chain around his throat."
Maester Aemon touched his own collar lightly, his bony, wrinkled finger stroking the heavy metal links. "Go on."
 
[Jon] "He told me that a maester's collar is made of chain to remind him that he is sworn to serve," Jon said, remembering. "I asked why each link was a different metal. A silver chain would look much finer with his grey robes, I said. Maester Luwin laughed. A maester forges his chain with study, he told me. The different metals are each a different kind of learning, gold for the study of money and accounts, silver for healing, iron for warcraft. And he said there were other meanings as well. The collar is supposed to remind a maester of the realm he serves, isn't that so? Lords are gold and knights steel, but two links can't make a chain. You also need silver and iron and lead, tin and copper and bronze and all the rest, and those are farmers and smiths and merchants and the like. A chain needs all sorts of metals, and a land needs all sorts of people."
 
Maester Aemon smiled. "And so?"
 
"The Night's Watch needs all sorts too. Why else have rangers and stewards and builders? Lord Randyll couldn't make Sam a warrior, and Ser Alliser won't either. You can't hammer tin into iron, no matter how hard you beat it, but that doesn't mean tin is useless. Why shouldn't Sam be a steward?"
 

A Storm of Swords - Bran III

I won't be afraid. He was the Prince of Winterfell, Eddard Stark's son, almost a man grown and a warg too, not some little baby boy like Rickon. Summer would not be afraid. "Most like they're just some Umbers," he said. "Or they could be Knotts or Norreys or Flints come down from the mountains, or even brothers from the Night's Watch. Were they wearing black cloaks, Jojen?"
"By night all cloaks are black, Your Grace. And the flash came and went too fast for me to tell what they were wearing."

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Stannis walked along the table, past Oldtown and the Arbor, up toward the Shield Islands and the mouth of the Mander. (Davos VI, ASOS 63)

The Shield Islands have fallen to the ironborn, and they start sailing up the Mander into the heart of the Reach. And they are threatening Oldtown and the Arbor by the end of AFFC.

 

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