Wow, I never noticed that v.16

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

11 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

A vision of something that already happened is a lot less fun. 

 

5 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

So true...

but random thought/question...

Does anyone see the past using fire/fire magic in the series so far?

Weirwoods see back in time, and we know fires see (possible?) futures... but can the fires see the past?

 

Melisandre tells Davos that the visions she sees in the flames do include visions of things that have already happened, so we do know that it can happen.

It takes years of training to see the shapes beyond the flames, and more years still to learn to tell the shapes of what will be from what may be or what was. Even then it comes hard, hard.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

1 hour ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

 

 

Melisandre tells Davos that the visions she sees in the flames do include visions of things that have already happened, so we do know that it can happen.

It takes years of training to see the shapes beyond the flames, and more years still to learn to tell the shapes of what will be from what may be or what was. Even then it comes hard, hard.

Nice catch!

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Nice catch!

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

A face took shape within the hearth. Stannis? she thought, for just a moment … but no, these were not his features. A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf's face threw back his head and howled.

The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was inside her, an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her. Shimmers of heat traced patterns on her skin, insistent as a lover's hand. Strange voices called to her from days long past. "Melony," she heard a woman cry. A man's voice called, "Lot Seven." She was weeping, and her tears were flame. And still she drank it in.

Strange voices from days long past - I wonder if Melisandre has a certain memory loss associated with her transformation?

[Faera]

So, this is one I noticed very recently and posted in another thread just in passing in response to another person. I'm sure others have talked about it before but this is literally the first time I noticed this. It's regarding the "Bran and co escape through the underground river" theory and its set up a solution as early as 'A Storm of Swords'. 

When Bran and his friends get to the Night Fort, Jojen makes it clear that he does not yet know how they are going to get through:

"We should sleep,” Jojen said solemnly, after they were full. The fire was burning low. He stirred it with a stick. “Perhaps I’ll have another green dream to show us the way.”
- Bran IV, ASoS

A few hours later, when Sam and Gilly return through the Black Gate, Jojen is pretty insistent on asking them how they got through:

“How did you get through the Wall?” Jojen demanded as Sam struggled to his feet. “Does the well lead to an underground river, is that where you came from? You’re not even wet …”
- Bran IV, ASoS

It could have been Jojen making an educated guess but, for some reason, I had it in the back of my mind when I was reading ADwD when Bran arrives at BR's cave where he consciously thinks of the river there:

The girl child was waiting for them, standing on one end of a natural bridge above a yawning chasm. Down below in the darkness, Bran heard the sound of rushing water. An underground river.
- Bran II, ADwD

So, I wonder Jojen had a dream that night about an underground river, all the way back at the Night Fort. If Jojen had already dreamed of the river, it might also explain why he and Meera went to go and have a look at it, despite Leaf's warnings of the dangers. Perhaps this is going to be the way they get back after all?

[Alexis-something-Rose]

Upstream, the flames had ripped at the sky, fifty feet high. He had seen Black Betha afire, and Fury, and a dozen other ships, had seen burning men leaping into the water to drown. (Davos I, ASOS 5)

I sort of wonder if this isn't some small indication that Black Betha did die at Summerhall. 

[Corvo the Crow]

Tyrion, at least for a while, uses the name Hugor Hill, inspired by Hugor of the Hill.

Firstly, Tyrion's famous line : "All dwarfs are bastards in their father's eyes."

Casterly Rock, home and birth place of Tyrion, is carved inside a hill.

Below is some part of Hugor's tale/legend.

Quote

"The Maid brought him forth a girl as supple as a willow with eyes like deep blue pools, and Hugor declared that he would have her for his bride. So the Mother made her fertile, and the Crone foretold that she would bear the king four-and-forty mighty sons. The Warrior gave strength to their arms, whilst the Smith wrought for each a suit of iron plates."

Description of the Gold Cloaks

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The City Watch wear cloaks, usually made of heavy wool, dyed gold. They are equipped with mail armor, iron cudgels, iron spears, dirks, and occasionally longswords. Their armor, boots, and gloves are black.The officers (such as the captains of the gates into the city) wear black breastplates ornamented with four golden disks.

After the battle for the KL

 

 

Quote

Death and desertion have left me with some forty-four hundred. Only the gods and Littlefinger know how we are to go on paying wages for so many, but your sister forbids me to dismiss any."

 

Tyrion is, in some way, Hugor of the Hill indeed.

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Tyrion, at least for a while, uses the name Hugor Hill, inspired by Hugor of the Hill.

Firstly, Tyrion's famous line : "All dwarfs are bastards in their father's eyes."

Casterly Rock, home and birth place of Tyrion, is carved inside a hill.

Below is some part of Hugor's tale/legend.

Description of the Gold Cloaks

After the battle for the KL

Tyrion is, in some way, Hugor of the Hill indeed.

The number 44 seems to have a sacred connotation. A septry in the Riverlands maintained 44 brothers before the War of the Five Kings. Arya VII, Storm 39. Nagga had 44 ribs. The Drowned Man, Feast 19. The Eldest Brother counted 44 namedays. Brienne VI, Feast 31. Hugor of the Hill was given 44 sons with the girl brought forth by the Maid. Tyrion II, Dance 5.

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

The number 44 seems to have a sacred connotation. A septry in the Riverlands maintained 44 brothers before the War of the Five Kings. Arya VII, Storm 39. Nagga had 44 ribs. The Drowned Man, Feast 19. The Eldest Brother counted 44 namedays. Brienne VI, Feast 31. Hugor of the Hill was given 44 sons with the girl brought forth by the Maid. Tyrion II, Dance 5.

Well, was going to add these in another post but now that you've posted them, could it be that battle of the Blackwater is also a defense against the crusaders of a foreign faith?

[Corvo the Crow]

This may have been brought up before but I have never noticed this

Name of Hugor (of the hill), "ancestor" to Andals is similar to Huzhor (Amai), "ancestor" of Sarnori/Tagaez Fen

7K has 4 ethnic groups, races or whatever you call them, First Men, Andals, Rhoynar and Valyrians

Kingdom of Sarnor also has/had 4; Tall Men, Cymmeri, Gipps and Zoqora

Tall men is likely to be Andals with the Hugor/Huzhor similarity

Cymmeri is counterpart to Rhoynar or may even be their ancestors with Cymmeri being the first to work Iron and Rhoynar also told to be the first to work iron.

the other two are tricky but I think it's as follows;

Gipps are counterpart to first men because of going to war with wicker shields (first men also get their shield emphasised, shields of leather)

Zoqora are counterpart to Valyrians because of their pale hair and their chariots (dragons).

[Corvo the Crow]

Also never noticed this

Huzhor Amai sounds way too similar to Azor Ahai

Huzhor Amai was born from the last Fisher Queen. Queen comes from the port-germanic kweniz which means woman.

Azor Ahai has a wife named Nissa Nissa. Nisa means woman in Arabic and according to wiktionary means water in Zapotec.

So Nissa Nissa could be "Water Woman" with the Fisher Queens being Fisher Woman, or Fish Woman perhaps.

So these two legendary figures are very likely to be one and the same. 

Hukko, which is believed to be a rendering of Hugor,  slays seven of the Swan Maidens who were luring travelers to Velvet Hills where head waters of the Little Rhoyne start.

This story too, is somewhat reminiscent of the other two and with the names Hugor of the Hill, Hukko, Huzhor Amai and Azor Ahai likely being corruptions of the same name, these legendary figures are the same person.

 

Legend of Azor Ahai, while having some similar elements to the others mentioned before, also reminds the Legend of the Last Hero in that he saves the world.

Tale of Azor Ahai is said to date back to scrolls more than 5000 years old.

Tall Men helped Valyria in Ghiscari wars, last of which was 5000 years ago meaning they existed at the time, though we have no way of knowing how further do they date back.

The Long Night was some 8000 years ago

The age gap of three millennia between the Long Night and the legend of Hugor of the Hill/Hukko/Huzhor Amai legend finding it's way into the scrolls of Ashai is long enough that the Legend of the Last Hero spread to Essos, and reach to Asshai and that two heroes become one somewhere along the way. Not unlike Westerosi legends getting changes over time.

Yes, I've never noticed this before.

 

[Megorova]

I noticed only now, thanks to @SirArthur's post in another thread, that Stannis drew his fake Lightbringer from the statue. When I was reading that scene in a book, I didn't thought about significance of that scene. I kind of thought about those things separately - Stannis' people burned statues of Seven Gods, and then Stannis drew a sword from the fire.

But actually he drew it from the statue. Furthermore from the Mother's statue.

ACOK, Davos I:

Quote

The Mother seemed almost to shudder as the flames came licking up her face. A longsword had been thrust through her heart, and its leather grip was alive with flame.

Quote

The king plunged into the fire with his teeth clenched, holding the leather cloak before him to keep off the flames. He went straight to the Mother, grasped the sword with his gloved hand, and wrenched it free of the burning wood with a single hard jerk.

I previously posted a theory that Lightbringer is Dawn sword of Daynes, and that currently it is hiden in crypts under Winterfell, where Lyanna's statue is. Starks statues either holding swords in their hands, or they are sitting with a swords lying across their laps. So Dawn is held by Lyanna's statue, and Jon will draw Lightbringer from her.

Lyanna is the Mother with a blazing sword.

Quote

The Father was on the bottom, the first to fall.

Rhaegar is the Father, who fell/died first.

Quote

The head fell off the Smith with a puff of ash and embers.

The Smith is Ned Stark. He created a forgery/lie, that Jon is his bastard. And his head fell off/he was executed by beheading.

Quote

Davos watched the hand of the Stranger writhe and curl as the fingers blackened and fell away one by one, reduced to so much glowing charcoal.

The Stranger lost one hand. It's Jaime. The Stranger is a god of death, and thus Jaime is valonqar, that will strangle Cersei with his cold hands. Like in that Tyrion's song - hands of gold are cold. And if I remember correctly, in one of Cersei's nightmares, the one who was killing her, had cold hands. It was in a dream after Tywin's death. Or not.

Quote

The Maiden lay athwart the Warrior, her arms widespread as if to embrace him.

The Maiden and the Warrior are Dany and Jon Snow, her third and last husband. (Athward means across, opposite, versus).

[LiveFirstDieLater]

53 minutes ago, Megorova said:

I noticed only now, thanks to @SirArthur's post in another thread, that Stannis drew his fake Lightbringer from the statue. When I was reading that scene in a book, I didn't thought about significance of that scene. I kind of thought about those things separately - Stannis' people burned statues of Seven Gods, and then Stannis drew a sword from the fire.

But actually he drew it from the statue. Furthermore from the Mother's statue.

ACOK, Davos I:

I previously posted a theory that Lightbringer is Dawn sword of Daynes, and that currently it is hiden in crypts under Winterfell, where Lyanna's statue is. Starks statues either holding swords in their hands, or they are sitting with a swords lying across their laps. So Dawn is held by Lyanna's statue, and Jon will draw Lightbringer from her.

Lyanna is the Mother with a blazing sword.

Rhaegar is the Father, who fell/died first.

The Smith is Ned Stark. He created a forgery/lie, that Jon is his bastard. And his head fell off/he was executed by beheading.

The Stranger lost one hand. It's Jaime. The Stranger is a god of death, and thus Jaime is valonqar, that will strangle Cersei with his cold hands. Like in that Tyrion's song - arms of gold are cold. And if I remember correctly, in one of Cersei's nightmares, the one who was killing her, had cold hands. It was in a dream after Tywin's death. Or not.

The Maiden and the Warrior are Dany and Jon Snow, her third and last husband.

I love the parallels!

But it does involve a lot of interpretation... Let me try, I could also see:

Targaryens:

Father: Aerys (died first), Rhaegar’s father

Mother: Rhaella, Rhaegar’s mother

Smith: Tyrion, designer of fancy saddles, noseless imp, who forged the chain and then the dwarfs caper headless before he disappears. (Secret Targ)

Stranger: The Kingslayer

Warrior: Rhaegar

Maiden: Lyanna

 

Lannisters:

Father: Tywin

Mother: Cersei, the flaming sword is also a symbol for punishing sin, and in this case could represent the prophesized deaths of her children.

Smith: Gregor Clegane, headless construct? Built like a blacksmith on steroids.

Stranger: Tyrion, kills Tywin and was previously Hand of the King

Warrior: Jaime 

Maiden: Brienne

 

Starks:

Father: Ned (first to die)

Mother: Cat (resurrected by fire inside her)

Smith: Bran, was “beheaded” by Theon, Brandon the Builder... and superpowers which forge bonds.

Stranger: Jon, bastard, et tu brothers?

Warrior: Arya

Maiden: Sansa, always trying to “thwart” each other, in the end they love each other and will be reunited

Baratheons:

Father: Robert, lots of kids

Mother: Selys who’s heart burns with Rhollor’s faith

Smith: Renly, throat cut through

Stranger: Stannis, who reaches into the flames and will likely be burned

Warrior: Gendry

Maiden: Mia Stone

 

Oh no wait another second! What about the crone? Nevermind, there’s no wisdom to illuminate here...

[Megorova]

51 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Oh no wait another second! What about the crone? Nevermind, there’s no wisdom to illuminate here...

That's the thing - the Crone wasn't there. She was, but she wasn't described, unlike the other six.

 

Also in your parallels, there's no burning swords, or swords at all, connected to either of the Mothers.

While Lyanna is not just Jon's mother, there's also her statue, in a crypt full of swords. In Davos' chapter there was the Mother's statue with a sword, and Stannis took his Lightbringer from the statue. There's no Rhaelle's, Cersei's or Cat's statues.

Aerys didn't died first. First died his son Rhaegar. And only then Aerys, and after him Rhaella. So Targaryens doesn't match.

Lannisters also doesn't match, because first died Joffrey, the grandson, and Cersei's father Tywin died after him.

Baratheons doesn't match because even though he, the head of the family, the father, died first, though the mother, Cersei, didn't died after him. Also Robert and Selys didn't had a child together.

Tywin and Cersei also didn't had a child together. Ned and Cat did had children, but Ned was beheaded, so he is the Smith, who lost his head, not the Father, who fell first.

Renly with his throat cut through, and Gregor Clegane's death, is not the same as dying from decapitation. And Bran isn't dead, and his head wasn't cut off. Also none out of those three didn't forged anything. The one who faked Bran's death was Theon.

The Stranger lost one hand. There were/are only three characters with one hand - Jaime, that Brother who was killed by Jon Snow, and some character from Essos, that has a hook in place of one hand. But out of three of them , only Jaime lost his hand "on screen", where we read about it happening.

 

You think Gendry and Mia will end up as a couple? That will be funny. It's like pervertion of Robert's wife, passed to his bastard children.

Arya X Sansa Seems that incest in Westeros is highly contagious.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

25 minutes ago, Megorova said:

That's the thing - the Crone wasn't there. She was, but she wasn't described, unlike the other six.

Sorry if I was being obtuse... 

I was implying that, as Aemon points out, the burning sword is a sham... it gives off light but not heat... the lack of the crone (who’s sphere of power is wisdom, specifically using a lantern to light the way) in the detailed description is notable by its absense. 

Perhaps indicating a lack of wisdom.

After all, it’s not a burning sword, it’s a burnt sword... and for that we can be grateful!

 

[Megorova]

27 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Perhaps indicating a lack of wisdom.

Could be.

GRRM's books are sooooooo complicated. It's like a riddle inside a riddle inside a riddle You can read them dozens times, and each time will notice some new detail. That's probably the reason why he's writing it so long -> it's hard to simultaneously give to readers clues, and also make those clues not too revealing, not to spoil what will happen next.

[The Fattest Leech]

A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys II

"I do not know, Your Grace, but I would sooner not risk your person to learn the answer."

When Rhaegal roared, a gout of yellow flame turned darkness into day for half a heartbeat. The fire licked along the walls, and Dany felt the heat upon her face, like the blast from an oven. Across the pit, Viserion's wings unfolded, stirring the stale air. He tried to fly to her, but the chains snapped taut as he rose and slammed him down onto his belly. Links as big as a man's fist bound his feet to the floor. The iron collar about his neck was fastened to the wall behind him. Rhaegal wore matching chains. In the light of Selmy's lantern, his scales gleamed like jade. Smoke rose from between his teeth. Bones were scattered on the floor at his feet, cracked and scorched and splintered. The air was uncomfortably hot and smelled of sulfur and charred meat.

 

[Walda]

On 3/9/2018 at 5:47 AM, Megorova said:

There were/are only three characters with one hand - Jaime, that Brother who was killed by Jon Snow, and some character from Essos, that has a hook in place of one hand.

Well, there was Ser Jacelyn Bywater, the commander of the Gold Cloaks that Tyrion appointed to replace Janos Slynt. Among the Black Brothers, Donal Noye has lost a hand, and the wighted Jafer Flowers (that is the hand Ser Aliser takes to Tyrion in Kings Landing). Qhorin half-hand still had half his hand, and for the sake of the point you were making re the stranger losing a hand in the fire, it is worth recalling Jon himself has a right hand that was burnt to the elbow in the fire that killed Jafer the wight.

[Seams]

On 3/8/2018 at 2:47 PM, Megorova said:

There were/are only three characters with one hand - Jaime, that Brother who was killed by Jon Snow, and some character from Essos, that has a hook in place of one hand.

In addition to those listed by Walda, there is this significant combat moment described by Theon at the end of AGoT:

Theon Greyjoy was seated on a bench in Riverrun's Great Hall, enjoying a horn of ale and regaling her father's garrison with an account of the slaughter in the Whispering Wood. "Some tried to flee, but we'd pinched the valley shut at both ends, and we rode out of the darkness with sword and lance. The Lannisters must have thought the Others themselves were on them when that wolf of Robb's got in among them. I saw him tear one man's arm from his shoulder, and their horses went mad at the scent of him. I couldn't tell you how many men were thrown—"

(AGoT, Catelyn XI)

I think this foreshadows the revenge of the one-armed man: when Roose Bolton tells Robb, "Jaime Lannister sends his regards," just before delivering the coup de grace.

There are several references in the books to the direwolves having the potential to tear off a person's arm.

Don't know if that relates to analysis of the burning statues, however.

[Megorova]

2 hours ago, Walda said:

Well, there was Ser Jacelyn Bywater, the commander of the Gold Cloaks that Tyrion appointed to replace Janos Slynt. Among the Black Brothers, Donal Noye has lost a hand, and the wighted Jafer Flowers (that is the hand Ser Aliser takes to Tyrion in Kings Landing). Qhorin half-hand still had half his hand, and for the sake of the point you were making re the stranger losing a hand in the fire, it is worth recalling Jon himself has a right hand that was burnt to the elbow in the fire that killed Jafer the wight.

Though none of those you mentioned had a golden hand, instead of the one they lost.

And it's fairly possible that Tyrion's song, is a foreshadowing - hands of gold are cold.

And in Cersei's dream, someone unknown was strangling her with cold hands. And the prophecy says that she will be killed by valongar, who is supposedly her little brother. And Jaime is her little brother, and he has golden hand, so if he will be killing Cersei with his golden hand, then he is the Stranger, in that sense that he is bringer of death.

So all other one handed people doesn't match.

[Lost Melnibonean]

2 hours ago, Walda said:

Well, there was Ser Jacelyn Bywater, the commander of the Gold Cloaks that Tyrion appointed to replace Janos Slynt. Among the Black Brothers, Donal Noye has lost a hand, and the wighted Jafer Flowers (that is the hand Ser Aliser takes to Tyrion in Kings Landing). Qhorin half-hand still had half his hand, and for the sake of the point you were making re the stranger losing a hand in the fire, it is worth recalling Jon himself has a right hand that was burnt to the elbow in the fire that killed Jafer the wight.

 

1 hour ago, Seams said:

In addition to those listed by Walda, there is this significant combat moment described by Theon at the end of AGoT:

Theon Greyjoy was seated on a bench in Riverrun's Great Hall, enjoying a horn of ale and regaling her father's garrison with an account of the slaughter in the Whispering Wood. "Some tried to flee, but we'd pinched the valley shut at both ends, and we rode out of the darkness with sword and lance. The Lannisters must have thought the Others themselves were on them when that wolf of Robb's got in among them. I saw him tear one man's arm from his shoulder, and their horses went mad at the scent of him. I couldn't tell you how many men were thrown—"

(AGoT, Catelyn XI)

I think this foreshadows the revenge of the one-armed man: when Roose Bolton tells Robb, "Jaime Lannister sends his regards," just before delivering the coup de grace.

There are several references in the books to the direwolves having the potential to tear off a person's arm.

Don't know if that relates to analysis of the burning statues, however.

And didn't Ulf son of Umar get an arm lopped off?