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Katerine459

[SPOILERS thru S7] Where did the show go wrong?

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On 11/8/2017 at 11:59 AM, Faera said:

Season 6 felt like a bit of a slog for Sandra and Carol, to be honest. Sure, both stories ended with epic battle and blowing up of the sept respectfully that gave us excellent visuals but we went through a lot of pain to get there. Especially with Sandra, I still don't understand why she didn't just tell Kit Harrington about the Vale Army coming when their little brother's life was at sake.

This show reduced everyone in the Great Sept and poor little Rickon to death fodder. That annoyed me.

And there I was, thinking that they liked the Tyrells. Considering how they demonized Stannis in the show...

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On ‎28‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 8:42 AM, SirArthur said:

After the tWoW sample chapters I have the feeling the context is completely different and something goes horrible wrong in the Lannister-Tyrell alliance. If this is due to Aegon spies (like Varys) or something else remains to be seen. But Tyrell's host is charging south towards Storm's End. And with the sept destroyed and Tommen dead, he could switch sides.  And then there is the Myrcella travelroute through the Kingswood. and Arianne.

The show isn't even in the same universe at this point. 

We've had enough foreshadowing that Cersei is turning into the Mad Queen and following a similar path to Aerys.  Long before the show even came into existence I always thought that Cersei would end up trying to blow up King's Landing using wildfire and that a dying Jamie would kill her to stop her.

The Sept is such a pivotal moment that I think it's destruction by Cersei is on the cards in the books too.

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On ‎27‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 10:42 PM, StepStark said:

I get the feeling that your feeling is 100 percent wrong.

I get the feeling we'll never find out unless D&D spill the beans later down the line exactly what was their idea and what was GRRMs.

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On ‎28‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 6:40 AM, Pink Fat Rast said:

GRRM said something in an interview that I found a bit disappointing - calling the political "war of the roses" plot in Westeros something that the characters "are preoccupied with" while "the real issues" i.e. the ice and fire, the Others and Daenerys, "go unnoticed as a result".

Seemed to imply that the pol plots didn't have any major significance in the end, even though I expected them all to pay off somehow (i.e. by different characters still assuming different positions and goals in the finale that's infomed by their previous relations, and various religious beliefs perhaps as well) - but if they're not supposed to, then ehhhh, them all being disposed of by the mad queen who's then gonna be counterproductive when all the ghouls arrive kinda makes sense and something that could happen in the books.

Or GRRM didn't mean it in the way it appeared, in which case of course none of that applies.

I think that's been clear since ACOK and to the really observant AGOT.  The politics are the pointless squabbling of mankind who is so preoccupied with itself that it doesn't see the greater dangers right on the doorstep.

The whole war of man is a plot device to weaken mankind in the face of the superior threat.  It makes the new coming of the heroic age that much more heroic.  All will seem to be lost before it is won and that win will come with massive sacrifices.

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On 5/2/2018 at 3:40 PM, Ser Gareth said:

I get the feeling we'll never find out unless D&D spill the beans later down the line exactly what was their idea and what was GRRMs.

I get the feeling it's not really hard to differentiate what's D&D's and what's GRRM's. If it's inconsistent, unrealistic, illogical and not even resembling anything from the novels, it's D&D's one hundred percent. For example, Littlefinger's death. Also, the entire hunt for the wight "adventure".

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3 hours ago, StepStark said:

I get the feeling it's not really hard to differentiate what's D&D's and what's GRRM's. If it's inconsistent, unrealistic, illogical and not even resembling anything from the novels, it's D&D's one hundred percent. For example, Littlefinger's death. Also, the entire hunt for the wight "adventure".

I'm not so sure.  There has been some pretty unrealistic dumb stuff in the books, especially the last two and we know that Hodor = Hold the Door (which I think is exceedingly stupid) would have been in the books.

More worrying for me personally is the whole Hodor time travel/loop is beginning to validate a theory I hated that I first came across before the release AFFC, which is that everything is just a time loop and history is set to repeat itself.

Now if that is the case then it's very possible that wight adventure may well have at least been inspired by events that would have taken place in the novels but it definitely won't go down the same way or with the same characters.  What I do think may have been planned in the books is for Jon to be beyond the wall with a ranging party and for Dany to swoop in with her Dragons to save the day, only to lose one to the Others.  I think that is a very real possibility.

As for Littlefinger, I don't think it would have gone down that way in the books but I do think it will be Arya that kills him and I wouldn't be surprised if it is a team effort with Sansa.

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8 hours ago, StepStark said:

I get the feeling it's not really hard to differentiate what's D&D's and what's GRRM's. If it's inconsistent, unrealistic, illogical and not even resembling anything from the novels, it's D&D's one hundred percent. For example, Littlefinger's death. Also, the entire hunt for the wight "adventure".

The main one I can think of is Littlefinger giving Sansa to the Boltons. Unless GRRM has something similar planned for Sansa when she marries Harry Hardyng...

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On 10/10/2017 at 1:51 PM, Katerine459 said:

To me, this is the root of the problem. You can hear it in the interviews with them. They constantly talk about what they want to have happen. They keep trying to give the fans the things that they want to have happen. But it's all for nothing if you forget the basic rule: what should happen, is what would happen, given the characters involved

Well, yes. And the proof, the infamous quote, "creatively it made sense to us, because we wanted it to happen" (from memory so probably not verbatim). 

So that and the fact that mr Benioff and mr Weiss seem to have started to believe they can write! :lol:

 

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On 5/3/2018 at 2:39 PM, Ser Gareth said:

I'm not so sure.  There has been some pretty unrealistic dumb stuff in the books, especially the last two and we know that Hodor = Hold the Door (which I think is exceedingly stupid) would have been in the books.

More worrying for me personally is the whole Hodor time travel/loop is beginning to validate a theory I hated that I first came across before the release AFFC, which is that everything is just a time loop and history is set to repeat itself.

Now if that is the case then it's very possible that wight adventure may well have at least been inspired by events that would have taken place in the novels but it definitely won't go down the same way or with the same characters.  What I do think may have been planned in the books is for Jon to be beyond the wall with a ranging party and for Dany to swoop in with her Dragons to save the day, only to lose one to the Others.  I think that is a very real possibility.

As for Littlefinger, I don't think it would have gone down that way in the books but I do think it will be Arya that kills him and I wouldn't be surprised if it is a team effort with Sansa.

I wasn't a fan of "Hold the Door" either, I would much have preferred that Hodor was just a gentle giant with a disability than that Bran wrecked his mind by being stupid.  I didn't really understand why it got so much praise in the show.  I don't think the books will be a time travel loop, but who can say, since they're never going to be finished and we are now going to be lucky to get "Winds" in whatever shape it may be in when his publishers finally lean on him enough to put it out.  I suspect it will make Dance and Feast look tight and well plotted.

The wight hunt was just too stupid to be in the books.  Too Stupid.  There may be some situation where Jon goes North and is saved by dragons...Dany will definitely lose at least one to the others, but it will never be as dumb as the show story.

I don't know about Arya killing LF, if Sansa isn't the prime mover there, it makes her whole story sort of pointless.  The show seems to be setting up Arya to kill Cersei, which seems unlikely in the books, but who knows at this point.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

I don't know about Arya killing LF, if Sansa isn't the prime mover there, it makes her whole story sort of pointless.  The show seems to be setting up Arya to kill Cersei, which seems unlikely in the books, but who knows at this point.

 

 

This is why I wanted Sansa killing Littlefinger personally. She passes the sentence, she proverbially swings the sword.

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On 5/3/2018 at 8:39 PM, Ser Gareth said:

I'm not so sure.  There has been some pretty unrealistic dumb stuff in the books, especially the last two and we know that Hodor = Hold the Door (which I think is exceedingly stupid) would have been in the books.

More worrying for me personally is the whole Hodor time travel/loop is beginning to validate a theory I hated that I first came across before the release AFFC, which is that everything is just a time loop and history is set to repeat itself.

Now if that is the case then it's very possible that wight adventure may well have at least been inspired by events that would have taken place in the novels but it definitely won't go down the same way or with the same characters.  What I do think may have been planned in the books is for Jon to be beyond the wall with a ranging party and for Dany to swoop in with her Dragons to save the day, only to lose one to the Others.  I think that is a very real possibility.

As for Littlefinger, I don't think it would have gone down that way in the books but I do think it will be Arya that kills him and I wouldn't be surprised if it is a team effort with Sansa.

I have to say that it's important to differentiate what you don't like from what is objectively absurd. So far, nothing in the books has been absurd in a way that it can't be reasonably explained using the rules established in the story. Maybe there will be something in the last two books, but so far nothing. On this forum there were many threads about possible logical fallacies in the books and as far as I know every single one of them failed to produce even single example. For example I don't like that Tyrion in Essoss accidentally met two familiar faces in two consecutive chapters but I can't say that it's impossible to happen.

Hold the door will definitely be logical fallacy if it happens as in the show, but we'll have to wait and see for that one.

As for everything else, I don't think there is any realistic chance that it's going to happen like that in the books. The wight hunt is not only unbelievably stupid but also unnecessary because in the books Jon has those corpses they keep in ice cells for examination. About LF, in he show everything about him is totally ridiculous and it has been for quite some time, while in the books nothing about him is ridiculous, so yeah, I don't think there's any realistic chance there that his downfall is going to be even remotely as in the show. And maybe Dany will loose one dragon to the Others but I'm pretty sure that it's not going to be as stupid as it was in the show.

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On ‎05‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 5:24 PM, StepStark said:

I have to say that it's important to differentiate what you don't like from what is objectively absurd. So far, nothing in the books has been absurd in a way that it can't be reasonably explained using the rules established in the story. Maybe there will be something in the last two books, but so far nothing. On this forum there were many threads about possible logical fallacies in the books and as far as I know every single one of them failed to produce even single example. For example I don't like that Tyrion in Essoss accidentally met two familiar faces in two consecutive chapters but I can't say that it's impossible to happen.

Hold the door will definitely be logical fallacy if it happens as in the show, but we'll have to wait and see for that one.

As for everything else, I don't think there is any realistic chance that it's going to happen like that in the books. The wight hunt is not only unbelievably stupid but also unnecessary because in the books Jon has those corpses they keep in ice cells for examination. About LF, in he show everything about him is totally ridiculous and it has been for quite some time, while in the books nothing about him is ridiculous, so yeah, I don't think there's any realistic chance there that his downfall is going to be even remotely as in the show. And maybe Dany will loose one dragon to the Others but I'm pretty sure that it's not going to be as stupid as it was in the show.

This is the TV section of the forum so I don't want to get too heavily involved in the book discussion, but I think that is simply not true.  The biggest issue of the books is the pacing is completely screwed.  GRRM has all but admitted this himself.  The five year gap was an ill conceived idea that he realised he couldn't follow through with, primarily because it screwed up other character pacing.  The problem is he needs that five year gap for Bran and Arya to catch up.

You hit the nail on the head with Tyrion in Essos.  But not just Essos.  Generally.  Now if it all turns out that humans are nothing but puppets for the Gods and the Gods willed these chance meetings then it's an explanation.  But for me it's a crappy explanation.  But throughout the series the chance meetings on the road are ridiculous.  There are simply way too many of them.

I don't think it'll be a Wight hunt.  And if it is, it'll be for Dany and not Cersei.  But as with the "legend" I think it's possible the books would have had Jon "the last hero" lead 20 of his companions beyond the wall and only Jon would make it back alive.  It's a shame we'll never find out.

I'm just pleased the show exists.   Because at least we'll get a broad strokes ending to a series of books I've been reading for 20 years now.  I am annoyed though that the show could have been so much better if it had had the complete source material to use from cradle to the grave.....

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9 hours ago, Ser Gareth said:

This is the TV section of the forum so I don't want to get too heavily involved in the book discussion, but I think that is simply not true.  The biggest issue of the books is the pacing is completely screwed.  GRRM has all but admitted this himself.  The five year gap was an ill conceived idea that he realised he couldn't follow through with, primarily because it screwed up other character pacing.  The problem is he needs that five year gap for Bran and Arya to catch up.

Wait, I thought you were talking about stuff from books being absurd, not what is wrong with them in general. 

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2 hours ago, Rhodan said:

Wait, I thought you were talking about stuff from books being absurd, not what is wrong with them in general. 

We are.  Many of the book absurdities are born from the pacing because now GRRM has added characters that are completely absurd and whose personalities don't truly fit in with the feel of the series.  E.g. The Iron Born in the books are laughable.  They're like comparative cave men.  Even the Wildlings are more socially intelligent than they are.  There is no way the Iron Born would realistically survive in a Westeros style feudal system.  And Euron is the most absurd character in the entire series, followed closely by Ramsay.  Absurd cartoon villains that the book would be better off without.

Chance meetings on the road, Littlefinger being able to pull off overly unrealistic complex plans left, right and centre, Tyrion and Penny, the entire pacing of the Others plotline and how Westeros perceives the threat etc.

There are absurdities a plenty.  The problem with what people regard as absurd is that it is highly subjective.  For example a lot of people really like Cersei's arc in AFFC but I think it is absurd.

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37 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

We are.  Many of the book absurdities are born from the pacing because now GRRM has added characters that are completely absurd and whose personalities don't truly fit in with the feel of the series.  E.g. The Iron Born in the books are laughable.  They're like comparative cave men.  Even the Wildlings are more socially intelligent than they are.  There is no way the Iron Born would realistically survive in a Westeros style feudal system.  And Euron is the most absurd character in the entire series, followed closely by Ramsay.  Absurd cartoon villains that the book would be better off without.

Chance meetings on the road, Littlefinger being able to pull off overly unrealistic complex plans left, right and centre, Tyrion and Penny, the entire pacing of the Others plotline and how Westeros perceives the threat etc.

There are absurdities a plenty.  The problem with what people regard as absurd is that it is highly subjective.  For example a lot of people really like Cersei's arc in AFFC but I think it is absurd.

OK, actually I can  agree with this a lot. I always felt that ASOIAF´s famous worldbuilding is kinda overrated and Planetos feels as rather silly setting. Partially we can say that the first three books and AFFC/ADWD combo feel really as different kinds of Fantasy.  

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1 hour ago, Rhodan said:

OK, actually I can  agree with this a lot. I always felt that ASOIAF´s famous worldbuilding is kinda overrated and Planetos feels as rather silly setting. Partially we can say that the first three books and AFFC/ADWD combo feel really as different kinds of Fantasy.  

The geopraphy of Tolkien is certainly a lot more thought through. Especially the river layout feels silly. 

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1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

The geopraphy of Tolkien is certainly a lot more thought through. Especially the river layout feels silly. 

Obviously I am not talking about geography....

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This is O/T, but while I agree that Euron is a bad book character, too much of everything...I think that Ramsay, while a sadistic torturer is fairly realistic, he's given a back story that quite realistically could have created a sadistic monster.  Euron is a marvel villain.  

 

Edited by Cas Stark

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13 hours ago, Ser Gareth said:

We are.  Many of the book absurdities are born from the pacing because now GRRM has added characters that are completely absurd and whose personalities don't truly fit in with the feel of the series.  E.g. The Iron Born in the books are laughable.  They're like comparative cave men.  Even the Wildlings are more socially intelligent than they are.  There is no way the Iron Born would realistically survive in a Westeros style feudal system.  And Euron is the most absurd character in the entire series, followed closely by Ramsay.  Absurd cartoon villains that the book would be better off without.

Chance meetings on the road, Littlefinger being able to pull off overly unrealistic complex plans left, right and centre, Tyrion and Penny, the entire pacing of the Others plotline and how Westeros perceives the threat etc.

There are absurdities a plenty.  The problem with what people regard as absurd is that it is highly subjective.  For example a lot of people really like Cersei's arc in AFFC but I think it is absurd.

You actually proved my point because if that's what you consider absurd then really nothing is truly absurd in the books.

The Iron Born are not laughable. Maybe they are to you, but that's another matter. They are not objectively laughable. Nothing makes them laughable or unrealistic. All one has to remember are the vikings, whose entire culture obviously served as model for IB. What is absurd about Euron? He may be under-explained, I don't think he is but some might disagree, but that's it. There is nothing objectively absurd about him except the dragon horn of course, but even that is only unrealistic but not absurd because in GRRM's world dragons do exist so it's not absurd for dragon horn to exist too. Ramsay is completely different case because he is detailed but there is nothing absurd about him either. He's a sadist who is actually very primitive and backward as he would be considering his upbringing, and when you combine sadism with that kind of primitivism you get someone like Ramsay, who differs from Joff only because Joff is also a sadist but he's not primitive.

Chance meetings happen in real life. As I said already, I think Tyrion had one chance meeting too many in ADWD but I can't say that it's a logical fallacy. There is nothing unrealistic about Littlefinger's plans because he actually doesn't have as many plans as some think. He's master in causing chaos but that's another thing entirely and yes there are people like that in real life too. Varys is someone who makes and follows plans, and that's why he has a partner like Illyrio, but LF is someone who specializes in stirring others and leading them to make mistakes. So far he was involved in one process that could be considered a plan, and that's Joff's murder. Sansa's marriage to Harry is the second one, but that one still needs to unravel and we'll see if it's successful or not.

I don't know what's wrong with Tyrion and Penny (other than their chance meeting). There is nothing absurd about the pacing of The Others plotline, simply because so far we have no idea what are they doing, what is their intention, do they even have one, and even who are they. Don't confuse the nonsense from the show with the books. The Other will obviously be the ultimate danger in the books and depending on how all that unravels we'll see if they were conveniently waiting for the sake of waiting (which is also not a terrible storytelling crime), or Martin will deliver some more sophisticated explanation, but the success or failure of that story depends on how will Martin deliver the final act of the story, and not on how long it took The Others to invade The 7 Kingdoms.

About realm's reaction to the threat, at this point literally all of the leaders in Westeros have more pressing matters (from their perspective) to deal with. I really don't see what is unrealistic about that, considering that in real life rarely any government in the world even thinks seriously of the global disasters that threaten the entire world or large parts of it.

And just to tell you, I've been down this road before. Maybe even with you. What would probably happen now is that you'd bring more and more examples of what you find absurd and I'd fell obliged to respond to them. If that's the case I ask you not to do that, but to stay on the examples you picked already. You picked them, not me. They should be prime examples of what you find absurd. So if you disagree with my "defense"of those examples please state your points, but please don't bring new examples because there is no end to that and the discussion will loose any sense.

Now of course, if you think all this is too much off topic, that's also fine and we can end the discussion here, but I don't see that it would be too big a problem considering that the books are obviously crucial in analyzing shortcomings of the show.

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In show defence, 100% adaptation is impossible.

Just read what happened while Cat was entering Riverrun in acok.

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